Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[williams]

Not an engineer, sir. And accounting for the years taken to consider, sanction, negotiate etc etc. Hence the conservative guesstimate.

Seriously, this is not an engineering issue, similar products have been done in faster times. But it is definitely a Management and even more so, a motivation issue.

Yeah that is it. And IMO it will never work without the profit motive of a capitalist setup (Like US, Europe) or you need to be a totalitarian power (Russia, China). Indian PSUs cannot handle it no matter how many MBAs they recruit. Organizations like ISRO is really an exception.

[Karan M]

How much time a new airframe takes you ask? Let’s see how much time does an improved airframe (Tejas mk2) over older airframe takes (mk1) - it has exactly the same wings (exact, same dimensions). Though the new plane has forewings, slightly elongated length (to provide better area ruling), different ( debatable) air intakes, new engines. It has already taken 5 years and I do not believe many times wrong ADA that it will be ready in 1-2 years. I won’t be surprised if it takes another 5-6 years to certify. Just mk1a has taken 2x ( and may go longer) than what ada/hal had promised.

Very nice theory except that starting 2014, the Tejas Mk2 has been through multiple redesigns and the program was not even cleared for FSED till recently. HAL and ADA were busy working on it through internal funds. And it's internal systems are significantly different from Mk1A.

Your entire premise is flawed.

[Rakesh]

HAL plans fourth assembly line for Tejas jets at Nashik to make up for delivery delay
https://www.deccanherald.com/india/hal- ... ay-3349987
10 January 2025

The failure of United States to deliver the F-404 engines for Tejas Mk-1 is the reason for HAL not being able to start the production of home-grown combat jets for the Indian Air Force, which is struggling with depleting squadron numbers.

[fanne]

Now that f404 engine is backlogged (maybe forever or on a small drip rate of say 12 engines a year), Hal can claim it is the most efficient aero company in the universe and can make a million plane a year (only if ge did not backstab being there excuse) and iaf can order many of these planes to prove they support indigenous effort (again very well knowing that without engines these planes are going no where). What a scam

[Cybaru]

HAL plans fourth assembly line for Tejas jets at Nashik to make up for delivery delay
https://www.deccanherald.com/india/hal- ... ay-3349987
10 January 2025

The failure of United States to deliver the F-404 engines for Tejas Mk-1 is the reason for HAL not being able to start the production of home-grown combat jets for the Indian Air Force, which is struggling with depleting squadron numbers.

This will contine until we dont fix and fly our own engine..

[Aditya_V]

Days of masses of cheap USSR aircraft are gone, numbers can come only from a Domestic source, engine development we have not taken seriously for 40 years with adequate funding, we have no choice but LCA , Mk1A, Mk2, TEDBF, ORCA, AMCA.

Every airforce will have a fair share of Non stealth aircraft , even China apart from J-20, J-36 will have significant J-10, J-15 etc.

Clearly India not toeing the US line in Ukraine we are seeing some consequences just like Pokran, from BD, Rupee to USD ratio , now Jet engines etc...

Obviously whatever solution negotiation we are doing, it cannot be done with everything open, I hope there is some plan B being implemented away from the Media glare or there is Biden/ Trump transition happening and this is the last hurrah from the Biden admin - POTUS bureaucrats.

But I hope and logically surely the GE has been feigning ignorance for the last 2 years, surely through Kaveri/ RD 33/ MK53 we have some engine which can somewhat work with the LCA- it is not easy but is becoming a necessity with the way GE is behaving

[Rakesh]

Please see the excellent twitter thread by Firestarter to counter the myths and misconceptions on the Tejas program.

The thread starts off with a small intro (in reply to a twitter user) by Firestarter and then goes into great detail. An absolute must read.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1880 ... 83926.html

[Rakesh]

Please see the excellent twitter thread by Firestarter to counter the myths and misconceptions on the Tejas program.

The thread starts off with a small intro (in reply to a twitter user) by Firestarter and then goes into great detail. An absolute must read.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1880 ... 83926.html

And the thread has gotten views from veterans as well. See this below from RM Nair ---> Grad IIT Madras - 1966, Engineer IAF 1966-1987, Two software/electronics startups 1989-2009.

https://x.com/aaremnair/status/1880139800109543789 ---> Thank you to @Firezstarter1 for this longish, but very readable post. He has listed all the benefits that the Tejas project has delivered. These benefits will never figure in a cost-benefit analysis. I hope people at the junior and mid-level in the MoD - the level at which cases are put on a file - read this and get educated about what the true benefits are. Recently, in a YouTube video, I heard the suggestion that service officers should run defence production units. That, I believe, would be a massive disaster. I was happy to see that @Firezstarter1, too, thinks the same.

[maitya]

Please see the excellent twitter thread by Firestarter to counter the myths and misconceptions on the Tejas program.

The thread starts off with a small intro (in reply to a twitter user) by Firestarter and then goes into great detail. An absolute must read.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1880 ... 83926.html

WoW - very very ... very well written!!

Betw it's all ok to say, "... 40 ordered on so-and-so date, has still not got delivered ... " etc - and the usual suspects have latched on to it and have gone on full combined-fire-and-rudali cacophony/tamasha mode.

However, a small detail is missing - I ask, just when was the Trainer SoP created in the 1st place???
Or is it that folks want deliveries to start even before SoPs are finalised/baselined, is it??

[srai]

^^^
People like to crib about nothing

Place all the orders 180 and then let the industry deliver. Initial setup takes time but then “magic” happens with everything aligned pace of deliveries increase. Quite often, deliveries complete even before the original timelines.

In India, it takes a lot of effort to get the users to place orders (small quantities as it may be) and then the bureaucracy Raj taking their own sweet time to get it to the dotted line. And then the funny part happens … masses now suddenly expect deliveries as of yesterday. Great blame game circus ensues. No patience at all … and yet those same folks had patience all along when deliberation for orders took many many years

[RCase]

https://x.com/aaremnair/status/1880139800109543789 ---> Thank you to @Firezstarter1 for this longish, but very readable post. He has listed all the benefits that the Tejas project has delivered. These benefits will never figure in a cost-benefit analysis. I hope people at the junior and mid-level in the MoD - the level at which cases are put on a file - read this and get educated about what the true benefits are. Recently, in a YouTube video, I heard the suggestion that service officers should run defence production units. That, I believe, would be a massive disaster. I was happy to see that @Firezstarter1, too, thinks the same.

I concur that service officers running defence production would be a disaster. The intake for the IAF is not geared to getting technical brainpower. The typical pathway is NDA/ AF Academy, primarily churning out pilot jocks. The guys with the serious technical chops join IITs, NITS and other top tier engineering colleges. The pathway for technical officer recruitment into the Armed Forces does not see the best and the brightest technical minds joining the armed forces. I would like to know if there is any IAF technical person that has been a stellar example of a technical thought leader (published cutting edge aerospace research papers) or has created a private unicorn manufacturing company. The persons that I had come across in defence production deputed from the IAF were average performers at the best.

For all those quoting ISRO as an example - it is run by civilians and not service officers. ISRO had its share of failures and has evolved over time, In fact the IAF should seriously study why ISRO is successful by setting realistic, incremental goals and not going for brochure BS. Even the current docking experiment, SPADEX was to demonstrate and learn from an achievable goal, rather than going the whole hog of deploying a space station in one go.

The guys coming up with the IAF SQRs should be taken to task. They want to paint a scenario of fighting some imaginary wars, rather than realizing the immediate neighborhood threats. It is very rich of the IAF to say technology delayed is technology denied. What the hell were they doing for so many years by not planning for fleet strength depletion?

[sanjayc]

It is distressing how generals work against interests of their own country and thwart any kind of military industrial capability to develop in India. They keep playing tricks to keep India dependent on imports and their gravy train. This is outright treason.

The key to Chinese success in aircraft was this: "SQRs were "moderate" for lesser risk, quicker induction." Somebody should frame this and hang it on the wall of Air HQ for the generals sifting through latest Western brochures.

[Rakesh]

^^^
People like to crib about nothing

Place all the orders 180 and then let the industry deliver. Initial setup takes time but then “magic” happens with everything aligned pace of deliveries increase. Quite often, deliveries complete even before the original timelines.

In India, it takes a lot of effort to get the users to place orders (small quantities as it may be) and then the bureaucracy Raj taking their own sweet time to get it to the dotted line. And then the funny part happens … masses now suddenly expect deliveries as of yesterday. Great blame game circus ensues. No patience at all … and yet those same folks had patience all along when deliberation for orders took many many years

Place all 180? See the attitude of a twitter user, who states that he is a veteran. This is the challenge that India is up against. The sheer level of stupidity in this tweet below is astounding.

https://x.com/nitin_chau/status/1880703891857350967 ---> India needs self reliance, no doubt about that. But certainly without HAL or DRDO. We need a company that can produce even not so sophisticated, but a reliable aircraft. Innovation is iterative but can only be done without bureaucracy and incompetence, like HAL or DRDO.

Which company in India will provide his wish list which is;

1) No incompetent govt bureaucracy.
2) A private player to produce aircraft.

We have that very model in India, but with artillery (Baba Kalyani). Is that working?

Which private company in India will develop aircraft that the IAF will be willing to purchase?

Which cuckoo land are these veterans living in?

[sanjayc]

Please see the excellent twitter thread by Firestarter to counter the myths and misconceptions on the Tejas program.

The thread starts off with a small intro (in reply to a twitter user) by Firestarter and then goes into great detail. An absolute must read.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1880 ... 83926.html

Key points from that article:

The SQRs asked for Mirage 2000 class avionics in a MiG21 sized airframe, systems and capabilities that existed in no other IAF aircraft of the time.

IAF has had a huge role to play in setting unrealistic specifications many of which were not expected of any other programs that it had. We set incredibly high benchmarks because they are contradictory, pulled from different spec sheets, platforms. Want them all in one. And then delay that platform's entry into service

"We will hold out for the best of the best of the best while we operate the worst, otherwise we will import" mindset that has often both delayed induction and also left us in crippling need.

Multiple meetings, last minute requests to "fix" issues that should have been picked up way earlier

IAF not even exploring workarounds which were blatantly obvious and being implemented on far more primitive IAF aircraft which had bigger issues in integrating third party weapons and sensors

Tejas Mk1A orders were released in an ad hoc fashion with zero interest in scaling up the industrial ecosystem to make future aircraft programs or even the Tejas sustainment more affordable, capable

If there is anything we need to learn from China, it is this. Constant iteration, understanding of local industrial capacity and no disparagement of their own based on some belief system that "martial beliefs/discipline " trump hard won scientific grind.

[Samay]

Too much discussion for a trainer sized aircraft, unsuitable w.r.to surroundings.
china must be loving narrow approach ?

[williams]

It is distressing how generals work against interests of their own country and thwart any kind of military industrial capability to develop in India. They keep playing tricks to keep India dependent on imports and their gravy train. This is outright treason.

The key to Chinese success in aircraft was this: "SQRs were "moderate" for lesser risk, quicker induction." Somebody should frame this and hang it on the wall of Air HQ for the generals sifting through latest Western brochures.

Retired guys go to the extreme when it comes to critiquing, since they are no more under the aegis of the government and may have been compromised due to some special interest. That said, if the SQRs are unbelievable, the scientific community could have easily said no to it. DRDO agrees to it, since they will get some budget allocation for it. If they say no there is a danger of not getting anything. I think we need a mindset change and a good traffic cop with right authority to ground these people into reality. Parrikar Ji did that job before, but there is no one to bell the cat now. Hopefully PM will come to some sense and do something about it. Current DM while good hearted is not using the stick when necessary. We need to revamp the whole defense acquisition setup in the country.

[RCase]

I think this business of SQRs from only the IAF needs to be restructured. Probably a committee of civilian think tanks, scientists along with the forces needs to come up with the SQRs to prevent unobtainium. Also need to rethink needs with evolving technologies - should there be a higher number of unmanned combat aircraft. From most of the public speeches of the Air Marshals, it seems like they are stuck in the same mindset of 42 squadrons, MMRCA etc. and don't display any out of the box, futuristic thinking.

[SSridhar]

There are two issues wrt the Services (essentially only the IAF & the Army).
One is the preliminary SQR itself which is grandiose with all bells & whistles.
The Second is the frequently shifting goal posts.
As for DRDO, one of the reasons they give unattainable deadlines is that they don't want to become irrelevant. They also know that they can get extensions when deadlines are not met by citing critical technologies.
Such projects as the LCA/AMCA or SSN etc must have a national task force which not only oversees and brings to bear all capabilities of the country but also reconciles between the Services and the DRDO. They should exist from day one of the project.
Today, the function of the CCS ends with sanctions. But in such selected nationally important security projects, it should act as a monitoring and deciding authority. The Scientific Advisor should report to them the assessment of the task force and the decision of the CCS would be final and binding . This is the idea of the 'Leading Small Group' in XJP's China. Parrikkar-like RMs who understood technology and requirements and who can therefore decide and act decisively are very rare.

[Neela]

There are two issues wrt the Services (essentially only the IAF & the Army).
One is the preliminary SQR itself which is grandiose with all bells & whistles.
The Second is the frequently shifting goal posts.
As for DRDO, one of the reasons they give unattainable deadlines is that they don't want to become irrelevant. They also know that they can get extensions when deadlines are not met by citing critical technologies.
Such projects as the LCA/AMCA or SSN etc must have a national task force which not only oversees and brings to bear all capabilities of the country but also reconciles between the Services and the DRDO. They should exist from day one of the project.
Today, the function of the CCS ends with sanctions. But in such selected nationally important security projects, it should act as a monitoring and deciding authority. The Scientific Advisor should report to them the assessment of the task force and the decision of the CCS would be final and binding . This is the idea of the 'Leading Small Group' in XJP's China. Parrikkar-like RMs who understood technology and requirements and who can therefore decide and act decisively are very rare.

Its not like that the Govt of India and MoD have to work like a CEO of of listed company where he has to manage investors, P&L, management board, R&D and budget, future growth. These folks have it easy. MoD has the whip to make folks toe the line. if it cannot crack the whip, then it is toothless.

They've had 10+ years now to figure things out. A haphazard approach means not all insitutions are aligned . If you cannot manipulate the system to bring the right folks at MoD, IAF, HAL (govt has 50% stake) these is some blame on RM. But this same RM managed to strangle OFB commie sh1t and made them profitable.

[Kartik]

I think this business of SQRs from only the IAF needs to be restructured. Probably a committee of civilian think tanks, scientists along with the forces needs to come up with the SQRs to prevent unobtainium. Also need to rethink needs with evolving technologies - should there be a higher number of unmanned combat aircraft. From most of the public speeches of the Air Marshals, it seems like they are stuck in the same mindset of 42 squadrons, MMRCA etc. and don't display any out of the box, futuristic thinking.

Tejas ASQRs were worked upon and agreed upon by both IAF pilots as well as DRDO scientists. Source? ACM AP Singh in his latest lecture at CAPS India. Available on YT.

[Yagnasri]

I think we have a straightforward solution. Just ban imports. Start with the Indian Army. As of now, we can make whatever we need for the Army in Bharat. Tech-wise and production wise there are no issues. So, simply ban all imports for the Indian army. Other than engines we can make almost everything for Air forces or Navy. Subs we can make nuclear even now. So dump SSKs and go for SSNs only. We are already making SSBNs and I am sure we can make SSNs if there are funds and time. We have all the time irrespective of the so called urgency.

The so called strategic relationships by imports and so on is just rubbish.

[konaseema]

It's a chicken or egg scenario. If imports are banned and a war starts, that is suicidal for both the forces and the government in charge. If you don't ban imports, the forces will never allow the imports to ever stop. It is a very slow process and there is no easy answer to the question whether 10 years of this BJP government to change the behavior of the armed forces or for that matter implement reforms to clean up the way babu's think (MOD) or fix the ills of DRDO. We can always admire / envy how ISRO has been successful with or without any influence from this government. Each organization is different and time taken by them will be different. As some one quoted in this thread, that it is the same RM who implemented the reforms to corporatize the OFB's. The ill's of 7 decades just can't be fixed in 1 decade. We may need to wait for another decade or so for true Atmanirbartha to kick-in across the spectrum and it is painful to wait that long.

[Rakesh]

A beautiful shot of LA-5033, with Astra BVRAAM and Israeli jammer.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GhwFkLfXQAA ... name=large --->

[ernest]

A beautiful shot of LA-5033, with Astra BVRAAM and Israeli jammer.

Great pic
Does anyone have any idea by when we will have a simpler/lighter astra launcher on Tejas. I thought this multi adaptor setup was temporary.

[Aditya_V]

I think it will be case till Uttam comes on board, highly likely that neither the Israelis nor we want to share source codes for the Radar(Israeli) or the Missile(Indian). Till then we have to make to with Launcher interface.

Once the Uttam is onboard then the situation will reverse for Foreign missiles.

[ernest]

I think it will be case till Uttam comes on board, highly likely that neither the Israelis nor we want to share source codes for the Radar(Israeli) or the Missile(Indian). Till then we have to make to with Launcher interface.

Once the Uttam is onboard then the situation will reverse for Foreign missiles.

Thanks for the answer. Would really appreciate if you could explain the technical details, viz. the types of adaptor, why the radar matters, what config was Astra made for, how are we managing without the source codes, etc.

[ashishvikas]

5034

https://x.com/hvtiaf_bharat/status/1882 ... aIltA&s=19

[Rakesh]

5034

https://x.com/hvtiaf_bharat/status/1882 ... aIltA&s=19

Beautiful shot. I have updated Page 1.

[Rakesh]

Tejas takes flight, but will the US let it soar
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comme ... t-it-soar/
23 Jan 2025

It is this very challenge to the dominance of US fighter aircraft like the F-16 in the international market that makes the engine delays in the Tejas programme seem more suspicious.

[Manish_P]

Tejas takes flight, but will the US let it soar
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comme ... t-it-soar/
23 Jan 2025

It is this very challenge to the dominance of US fighter aircraft like the F-16 in the international market that makes the engine delays in the Tejas programme seem more suspicious.

"Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt" - Ronin (1998)

[rrao]

Rakesh sir ji, why there is no LCA and ALH included in the Rday fly past?

[A Deshmukh]

ALH is grounded after the recent CG ALH crash.
LCA is single engined aircraft and usually does not fly in RD parades.

[Rakesh]

X-Post from the Indian Army Aviation thread...

Delivery of Apache attack helicopters from US for Army misses deadline again
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/d ... 2025-02-03
03 Feb 2025

https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1886671730371863024 ---> Great. My gut feeling tells me that the initial deliveries of GE F404 eng which is now supposed to begin in March will also get delayed. While South Korea keeps on receiving their yearly quota of F404 engines for their KAI T-50 AJT. NO SUPPLY CHAIN DISRUPTIONS for South Korea.

[Kartik]

X-Post from the Indian Army Aviation thread...

Delivery of Apache attack helicopters from US for Army misses deadline again
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/d ... 2025-02-03
03 Feb 2025

https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1886671730371863024 ---> Great. My gut feeling tells me that the initial deliveries of GE F404 eng which is now supposed to begin in March will also get delayed. While South Korea keeps on receiving their yearly quota of F404 engines for their KAI T-50 AJT. NO SUPPLY CHAIN DISRUPTIONS for South Korea.

I believe South Korea manufactures F-404 engines under license by Samsung Aerospace and Hanwha Aerospace. They manufacture the F-404-GE-102 variant for their KAI T-50/TA-50/FA-50 variants.

[uddu]

X-Post from the Indian Army Aviation thread...
https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1886671730371863024 ---> Great. My gut feeling tells me that the initial deliveries of GE F404 eng which is now supposed to begin in March will also get delayed. While South Korea keeps on receiving their yearly quota of F404 engines for their KAI T-50 AJT. NO SUPPLY CHAIN DISRUPTIONS for South Korea.

I believe South Korea manufactures F-404 engines under license by Samsung Aerospace and Hanwha Aerospace. They manufacture the F-404-GE-102 variant for their KAI T-50/TA-50/FA-50 variants.

The issue is that the component manufacturer is South Korean and that company went bankrupt. If the components meant for F-404-GE-102 and IN variants are same, then South Korea is being prioritized over India.

[maitya]

Def Sec: GE plans to deliver 12 F404 this year and increase it to 20 from next year

[ashishvikas]

India plans to crank up Tejas production to stem IAF’s depletion in fighters

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 967197.cms

The delivery of 99 GE-404 engines, which HAL contracted for Rs 5,375 crore in Aug 2021 but has been delayed by almost two years, is all-important. GE has now promised to begin the delivery next month, with 12 engines to be delivered in 2026, and 20 every year thereafter, another official said.

[Aditya_V]

Def Sec: GE plans to deliver 12 F404 this year and increase it to 20 from next year

Just wondering did the Biden Admin have anything to do with this delay?

[maitya]

India plans to crank up Tejas production to stem IAF’s depletion in fighters

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 967197.cms

The delivery of 99 GE-404 engines, which HAL contracted for Rs 5,375 crore in Aug 2021 but has been delayed by almost two years, is all-important. GE has now promised to begin the delivery next month, with 12 engines to be delivered in 2026, and 20 every year thereafter, another official said.

In the same report, some confirmation atlast:

“HAL will have five Tejas Mark-1A jets and four trainers ready by March-April. If the GE engines begin coming, fitments can be done in a few days,” a top defence official told TOI.

So, 9 platforms got built in 2024-25 ...

[ashishvikas]

^^ 8 as first Mk1a made it’s firs flight in March 24 (previous FA).. and big if all of them are ready.