Indian Naval Aviation

[Ankit Desai]

Indian Navy Selects NewSpace For Unmanned Wingman

In what is easily the most significant deal between the Indian military and a local startup company, the Indian Navy has selected Bengaluru-based startup NewSpace Research & Technologies (NRT) to develop its Naval Collaborative Combat Air Vehicle (N-CCAV), an unmanned aircraft that will operate collaboratively with the navy’s MiG-29K and future Rafale-M fighter aircraft.

-Ankit

[maitya]

So IN MiG-29Ks will also get a Uttam AESA variant soon, as a part of a MLU ... WOW!!
Refer to 30:32min in the Episode 32 : Indigenization Appreciation Hour with Saurav Jha 08 February 2025 | Aero India 2025

[Khalsa]

Go Navy, you are my only hope.

----------------------------------------------------

Mod Note: Please do not post pictures without links.

[Rakesh]

So IN MiG-29Ks will also get a Uttam AESA variant soon, as a part of a MLU ... WOW!!
Refer to 30:32min in the Episode 32 : Indigenization Appreciation Hour with Saurav Jha 08 February 2025 | Aero India 2025

Remember when Indian Navy wanted Uttam AESA on Rafale M? ---> viewtopic.php?p=2630646&hilit=Uttam#p2630646

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1887848726041174172 ---> Indian Navy showing off its MiG-29K. Armed with a huge array of weapons...enlarge to see!

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1887881422326865940 ---> This MiG-29K has two SPJs (Self Protection Jammer). Excellent if this is an actual deployment configuration for the jet.

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1888008141779927383 ---> These SPJs are designed to be load bearing and you can add a R73 launcher below them.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1887879318455427171 ---> IN has ditched the Elta EL/M 8222 SPJ on its MiG-29K and replaced them with Talisman pod from Belarus OEM, Defence Initiatives. It's a two pod jammer system. Can jam at least 20 RF emitters simultaneously. Can jam data link of command guided missiles. Also acts as a RF MAWS.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/connect_rishav/status/1888492342065369346 ---> New addition in Indian Navy's MiG-29K weapon arsenal: Rudram-II Anti Radiation Missile (ARM). CC: @ReviewVayu

[Hriday]

Several social media posts say that the Navy is already fielding Air Lora missiles on P8I. The below link contains a picture of a P8I carrying a Lora missile. Don't know if it is real.

https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/180732 ... H0bTA&s=19

IN is going to replicate some of these capabilities with its P-8I fleet.

Navy has plans to integrate Air Lora with our P-8. Each can carry 2.

It is widely believed that IAI is integrating this missile with P-8 specifically for us.

BEL has a JV to make Lora here in India.

Lora missile is 1.6-ton weight, has a 430 km range, and 10-meter accuracy with TV guidance.
From Wikipedia,

LORA was used in the final days of the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war, being used to target a vital bridge in the Lachin corridor linking Armenia to the Nagorno-Karabakh region.[10] It was initially thought to have destroyed the bridge, but later evidence suggested it had only inflicted limited damage

Indian P8I had an absolutely vital role in searching for submarines and had to carry anti-submarine torpedoes and depth charges to kill submarines. Also, have to worry about Chinese submarines even during an Indo-Pak war.
Why interfere in its role?

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/connect_rishav/status/1888976393666474253 ---> Confirmation regarding Talisman pod onboard Indian Navy MiG-29K at Aero India 2025. And also a close-up of Astra MkII (though its mentioned as Mk1 on the info board).

https://x.com/connect_rishav/status/1889534049477378307 ---> The Indian Navy will adopt Astra MkII as its primary Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile (BVRAAM). It will not induct the Astra Mk1. Trials are in progress. Pictures @ReviewVayu.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1890327972181070322 ---> Indian Navy's MH-60R.

[Rakesh]

Please drag and drop this picture into a new browser window for full size.

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/18 ... 1345306851 ---> Newspace Research and Technologies CCA Abhimanyu featured in Aviation Week.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/singhshwetabh71/status/19 ... 7366049855 ---> This is how big a M-Q9B is compared to a P-8I (wingspan wise).

[Shankas]

Found this very insightful video on US Boeing P-8

Boeing P-8 Poseidon: America's Most Advanced Submarine Hunter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2I2pmS ... aryChannel

[Snehashis]

CCS cleared acquisition of 26 Rafales (22 x single-seat M and 4 x twin-seat shore-based aircraft) for Navy. Deal worth Rs. 63,000 crores ($7.3 billion) expected to be signed this month.

VIDEO: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1909875578703933941 ---> India’s 2nd Rafale fighter deal cleared, all set to be signed this month. Deal for 26 Rafale-M fighters for the Indian Navy. I report with details:

[Cyrano]

At last! There is a message in this decision for uncle Sam as well!
Pop the champagne!!!

[Rakesh]

At last! There is a message in this decision for uncle Sam as well!
Pop the champagne!!!

Trump is not going to go down without a fight. We will have to make some concessions i.e. jizya payments coming for Amreeka!

[Cyrano]

For any mil purchase demand from unkil we must now say "pehle engines bhej, baad mein baat kar" . That will buy us a year or two

[Rakesh]

For any mil purchase demand from unkil we must now say "pehle engines bhej, baad mein baat kar" . That will buy us a year or two

Love It!

[chetak]

CCS cleared acquisition of 26 Rafales (22 x single-seat M and 4 x twin-seat shore-based aircraft) for Navy. Deal worth Rs. 63,000 crores ($7.3 billion) expected to be signed this month.

VIDEO: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1909875578703933941 ---> India’s 2nd Rafale fighter deal cleared, all set to be signed this month. Deal for 26 Rafale-M fighters for the Indian Navy. I report with details:

Here is the beauty, not yet in IN colors though

https://x.com/sunaina_bhola/status/1909 ... 91/photo/2 --->

[bala]

Just thinking laterally. If Russkis allow us to modify Mig-29K craft, wouldn't that be a better option than Rafales for the Navy. Want to know the pros/cons of such a thing. Also the engine replacement with Kaveri for Mig-29 or a modified Su-30MKI engine.

[Cyrano]

Ohhhh Noo Bala Garu, not again....!!!!!

[Rakesh]

The MiG-29K/KUB have been a disaster for the Navy.

[chetak]

The MiG-29K/KUB have been a disaster for the Navy.

Rakesh saar,

one knows what it looks like from the outside, but the version is one sided.

The russkis are not entirely to blame.

Many things are not out in the public domain.

[Manish_P]

At last! There is a message in this decision for uncle Sam as well!
Pop the champagne!!!

Trump is not going to go down without a fight. We will have to make some concessions i.e. jizya payments coming for Amreeka!

Most of these big deals, and the quid pro quo, are decided well in advance before the revelation to the public.

We can only hope that our side had demanded, and has been okayed, the things we really need from Unkill.

Even for those Unkill will of course extract jiziya pricing.

[prashantsharma]

The MiG-29K/KUB have been a disaster for the Navy.

At the turn of the century, did the IN have an option other than the 29K for a ski jump carrier? Maybe only second hand harriers or AV8s (which have pretty high attrition rates btw).

We were able to get them in big numbers (everyone here loves 'quantity has a quality of its own'). It was a formidable air to air and anti ship platform and would have easily wiped its arse with anything Pak could have put out on the sea or in the air. Maintenance was its Achilles and that gradually went up. And with 45 we would have been able to put a decent number in the air if the balloon went up with Pak. So while it may now be time to replace it, it did its job well. In fact one could say that for a change the Indian forces are replacing a major platform in a timely manner.

Also 5 crashes in 20 yrs for a carrier borne fighter isn't too bad. What was the Harrier's record in 20 yrs?

So keeping in mind the context in which it was inducted, I don't feel any need to diss it.

[TVenky]

At last! There is a message in this decision for uncle Sam as well!
Pop the champagne!!!

Actually the real and complete message is when India readys to sign G2G for 114 Rafales after abruptly and immediately scrap MRFA Season 2 megaserial.

[Nikhil_Naya]

The MiG-29K/KUB have been a disaster for the Navy.

Yes and No.

No, in that it helped to keep the Air Arm active, considering there were no real alternatives at that time that we could purchase for the carriers. In a simple sense, beggars not choosers scenario. From a pocket aircraft carrier that the VikAD actually is, there was no other aircraft that could have given us the needed edge. IN was more 'west' focussed and the VikAD with a 40 a/c complement with 50% availability would still be a formidable enough deterrent to block out Karachi, Gwadar and provide air cover to our battlegroups there, if push came to shove. It could outclass almost any aircraft that the Porkis could put into the air in this sector, with maybe the exception of the later f16's, which in any case would probably focus more on the western border than the sea front.

Having said that Yes, disasters in terms of maintenance, availability and just plain pain the butt as systems were taking a hit due to the corrosive sea environment with many systems not being sea ready. Derated take off loads due to heat, etc.

It probably just was a stopgap. The LCA-Navy would have been the ideal replacement, but after reading Cmd Maolankars inputs on this it is evident that in its current iteration it would have been severely limited aircraft for naval use. And considering that now we are looking at 2 carriers with one being a more available platform (Vikrant), makes sense for it to have Rafales on board with VikAD taking a more backup carrier approach.

The order size also indicates that maybe the Navy is still hoping for HAL /ADA to deliver a homegrown Naval fighter.

at the price the Rafale M's are coming I have a feeling that it a lot more than is visible on the front. For one, the MTBO/ MTBF of the M88 engines will be lower than the land variants for sure. Maybe we have more spare engines on order with this Lot. Instead of a 2 spare sets per a/c maybe 3 spare sets. Plus maybe some behind the scenes assist?

[Aditya_V]

My other question is how many years will it take the Rafale Ms to be delivered? Can we order IAC-2 with larger lifts and build it in 5-6 years time, before these birds come, while working TEDBF with foldable wings for Vikad and IAC-1 Vikrant?

[chetak]

The MiG-29K/KUB have been a disaster for the Navy.

Rakesh saar,

one knows what it looks like from the outside, but the version is one sided.

The russkis are not entirely to blame.

Many things are not out in the public domain.

Rakesh saar,

Exclusive: Ex-Navy Chief On Rafale Jets And Chinese Threat In Indian Ocean
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/exclusi ... an-8129116
10 April 2025

'MiG-29 Was A Hobson's Choice For Us'Admiral Prakash, who was closely involved during the induction of the INS Vikramaditya, further explained the reason behind the induction of the MiG-29 into the Navy and said it was more of a "Hobson's choice for us".

[Manish_P]

^ If we don't back our home efforts and have our own turbofan engine we are destined to again meet Mister Hobson, or rather Monsieur Hubert, in a few years...

For armchair aviator me the TEDBF seems more promising (and a safer bet) than the AMCA (naval)

[Rakesh]

...

...

Thank you to you both for great posts.

My apologies for not being clear in my post. When I stated that the MiG-29K/KUB fleet has been a disaster, I meant the maintenance aspect which you both have highlighted in your posts.

[Rakesh]

My other question is how many years will it take the Rafale Ms to be delivered? Can we order IAC-2 with larger lifts and build it in 5-6 years time, before these birds come, while working TEDBF with foldable wings for Vikad and IAC-1 Vikrant?

The first airframe is expected to be delivered within 37 months of contract signing and the last one (the 26th airframe) within 61 months of contract signing. So if the contract is signed this month, this will be the schedule;

* First airframe: May 2028

* Last airframe: June 2030

Industry standard for delivery of first airframe is three years (36 months) from contract signature. So Dassault is on target. The metric to measure is whether they can stick to that schedule. So keep a look out to see when the deal is signed and then calculate from there.

IAC-2 will come with larger lifts and will be larger in tonnage. When it will arrive, is anyone's guess. The last time IAC-2 was supposed to go for CCS clearance, it was dropped off the list of projects to be approved. When IAC-2 is finally commissioned, INS Vikramaditya will likely not be in active service. She will be retired in the next decade.

[Rakesh]

Rakesh saar,

Exclusive: Ex-Navy Chief On Rafale Jets And Chinese Threat In Indian Ocean
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/exclusi ... an-8129116
10 April 2025

What a wonderful article! Thank you Saar for posting. Many gems of info, two of which I am highlighting below with my comments...

On a question about what the Rafale addition means for the Navy, Admiral Prakash said, "It's going to add a huge punch, kinetic punch to Indian Navy's striking power in many dimensions, air defense, anti-shipping strike, electronic warfare, you name it. The Rafale is a fine and capable aircraft. It's a welcome addition. The Rafale is probably half a generation or a generation ahead of the MiG-29K. So it's going to add a punch to the fleet at sea."

It was an Indian Navy Admiral (retired) who questioned the viability of the Naval Tejas Mk1 in the nuclear strike role. He was pushing for the Rafale M, because French Navy Rafale Ms do undertake that mission with the ASMP-A (air launched, nuclear missile). Obviously, the Indian Navy will not be receiving the ASMP-A, but seeing Admiral Arun Prakash's comments above....the MiG-29K does lack in some areas. And he flew the Rafale M in the early part of the 21st century. The Indian Navy has been eying this aircraft, far longer than before the IAF got a look at it.

Admiral Prakash, who was closely involved during the induction of the INS Vikramaditya, further explained the reason behind the induction of the MiG-29 into the Navy and said it was more of a "Hobson's choice for us".

The Vikramaditya + MiG-29K was a combo offer I believe (if memory serves me right). Neither worked to the IN's satisfaction, but I agree with you Chetak Saar and even with Admiral Prakash. Back then, no one else would have offered what the Russians did.

[Rakesh]

It was an Indian Navy Admiral (retired) who questioned the viability of the Naval Tejas Mk1 in the nuclear strike role. He was pushing for the Rafale M, because French Navy Rafale Ms do undertake that mission with the ASMP-A (air launched, nuclear missile).

Found the article and Admiral Arun Prakash also responded to it. But see below....

Link --> https://bharatkarnad.com/2022/12/08/nav ... programme/

Email from Vice Admiral Harinder Singh (Retd), former Deputy Chief of the Naval Staff

Fri, 9 Dec at 3:14 pm

Dear Bharat ji,

Yes, you have a point of view but its distorted and not based on any logic

I have been hearing about the LCA and Kaveri engine followed by the LCA N from the end of the 70s, roughly 4 decades. I looked at when I was iDCNS and was convinced that it will not deliver though we happily continued to fund it. Its difficult to find what’s atamnirbhar in LCA except for the frame and some misc signal equipment. Yes we developed and the learning process is important and hence the need to support it.

Aircraft carriers have limited ability to carry aircraft on board and therefore they need to have max reach and time on task, fully loaded and you will not understand this issue. At a rough guess we will require over 50% extra LCA-Ns to be loaded on board and for which there is no space.

Lastly, unsaid, who will provide the Nuclear strike capability from a long stand off distance, certainly not your LCA N. I suspect what may have tipped the scales in favour of the French may just have been this aspect. The navy cant wait another 2 decades for getting this capability to sea against a superior enemy Navy.

I agree with Arun on his remarks and I dont see that the serving community charged with national defence are stupid and you know more than them and may require more study

Cheers

[Rakesh]

It was an Indian Navy Admiral (retired) who questioned the viability of the Naval Tejas Mk1 in the nuclear strike role. He was pushing for the Rafale M, because French Navy Rafale Ms do undertake that mission with the ASMP-A (air launched, nuclear missile).

Photos of a French Navy Rafale M with a ASMP-A missile under the centre pylon, aboard the French Navy's aircraft carrier (Charles De Gaulle).

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comme ... /#lightbox

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https% ... 989746806a

[RCase]

My other question is how many years will it take the Rafale Ms to be delivered? Can we order IAC-2 with larger lifts and build it in 5-6 years time, before these birds come, while working TEDBF with foldable wings for Vikad and IAC-1 Vikrant?

The first airframe is expected to be delivered within 37 months of contract signing and the last one (the 26th airframe) within 61 months of contract signing. So if the contract is signed this month, this will be the schedule;

* First airframe: May 2028

* Last airframe: June 2030

So we will have a fancy ship ('aircraft carrier') floating around with no aircraft for at least another 3 years and probably full strength in 5 years. The INS Vikrant was commissioned in 2013. So for 17 years of its life it will be a fancy boat, sailing without the ability to offer a meaningful punch.

For Vice Admiral Harinder Singh (retd) fantasizing about delivering nuclear weapons from the aircraft carrier, we will tell our adversaries to put on hold their plans till 2030! I would have rather taken the Tejas Naval version as an interim solution to provide a reasonable punch with conventional weapons till the delivery of Rafale Ms.

[Manish_P]

We want an aircraft that does everything including Interstellar strike missions but it should be light and fit in the MiG 21 hangars of the IAF and the Sea Carrier lifts of the IN ACs.

[Manish_P]

...
For Vice Admiral Harinder Singh (retd) fantasizing about delivering nuclear weapons from the aircraft carrier...

Maybe some kind soul can ask the good Admiral what our Nuke Subs are supposed to do...

[Rakesh]

This is how the French Navy trains its "Rafale M" pilots --->

1) Experience catapult take-offs and traps from a US navy aircraft carrier, using the T-45 Goshawk. They send their rookie pilots to the US for this very purpose.

2) Upon completion of the course, the rookie pilots return to France for cockpit familiarization on the twin-seater Rafale B + extensive simulator training. The level of learning and mastery required here is crucial to move to the next stage.

3) By the time the pilot (not a rookie anymore!) does his first catapult take off and landing on the Charles De Gaulle, they are fully qualified to operate from an aircraft carrier. French Navy pilots can even operate from US Navy aircraft carriers i.e. steam catapult and also EMALS (when PANG - the second upcoming French aircraft carrier - enters service). The steam catapult system aboard the Charles De Gaulle is from the same US company that supplies steam catapults to the Nimitz Class of aircraft carriers. The EMALS system aboard PANG is coming from General Atomics, the same US company that supplies EMALS to the Gerald R Ford Class of aircraft carriers.

A similar training regime will exist in the Indian Navy and this is where the twin-seater Naval Tejas will play a crucial role. The arrival of the Rafale M, will pave the way for the entry of the Naval Tejas. Unlike the carrier capable MiG-29KUB, the twin-seater Rafale B is not carrier compatible and greenhorn Indian Navy fighter pilots have to experience "real-world" carrier take-offs and landings on some platform, before graduating to the gold plated Rafale M. But nothing ever comes on time in India, so don't expect an order of Naval Tejas anytime soon. In the next decade, you will see INS Vikrant operating a fleet (albeit a small one) of Naval Tejas Mk1s.

By the way, has anyone ever seen a twin-seater F-35B or F-35C? How do you think the US Navy trains its rookie F-35 pilots?

पहले प्रकाश आता है, बाद में सूरज आता हैं
First comes the light, then comes the sun

Tejas = Radiance

[Manish_P]

...
By the way, has anyone ever seen a twin-seater F-35B or F-35C? How do you think the US Navy trains its rookie F-35 pilots?
...

Admiral sir, I recently saw an article on the war zone channel on X stating that the US Navy has said it's next trainer need not be carrier take-off qualified...