Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

[Jay]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/1840972214096556076 ---> Delhi: On being asked about the future of the Indigenous Fighter aircraft programmes, Indian Air Force Air Chief Marshal AP Singh says, "I have been associated with the Tejas programme right from its flight testing days and it is very close to my heart. I know that this aircraft has the capability. It is a little too small of an aircraft for the current situation, however, we have such a place for an aircraft and we have ordered 200 plus aircraft of this type...We need to focus more towards the Mark 2 (aircraft) and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) programme. We have the capacity and capability within the country to achieve this. Everybody has to come together to make it a success..."

It pains me to say that this AP Singh and some of his predecessors does not miss any chance to undermine our efforts. I mean, what the heck is he talking about when he says "it is a little too small" when the aircraft is built to IAF's specs? Either his words have been misinterpreted by the press, or the good air marshal does not understand what a "light fighter aircraft" is? I sincerely hope its the former.

[Rakesh]

It pains me to say that this AP Singh and some of his predecessors does not miss any chance to undermine our efforts. I mean, what the heck is he talking about when he says "it is a little too small" when the aircraft is built to IAF's specs? Either his words have been misinterpreted by the press, or the good air marshal does not understand what a "light fighter aircraft" is? I sincerely hope its the former.

If you click on the link in the post, you can see that that Air Chief Marshal does say that the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A is a little too small.

[A Deshmukh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/1840972214096556076 ---> Delhi: On being asked about the future of the Indigenous Fighter aircraft programmes, Indian Air Force Air Chief Marshal AP Singh says, "I have been associated with the Tejas programme right from its flight testing days and it is very close to my heart. I know that this aircraft has the capability. It is a little too small of an aircraft for the current situation, however, we have such a place for an aircraft and we have ordered 200 plus aircraft of this type...We need to focus more towards the Mark 2 (aircraft) and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) programme. We have the capacity and capability within the country to achieve this. Everybody has to come together to make it a success..."

I don't see any red flags in "little too small".
Air Chief clearly says we have ordered 200+. (200+ Mk1 & Mk1A - "ordered").
and now we need to focus Mk2
and AMCA.
Mk1A is a small aircraft. I dont see a need to be so sensitive about AirChief stating so. I see a clear line of thinking on Mk2 and AMCA path.

[Kartik]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/1840972214096556076 ---> Delhi: On being asked about the future of the Indigenous Fighter aircraft programmes, Indian Air Force Air Chief Marshal AP Singh says, "I have been associated with the Tejas programme right from its flight testing days and it is very close to my heart. I know that this aircraft has the capability. It is a little too small of an aircraft for the current situation, however, we have such a place for an aircraft and we have ordered 200 plus aircraft of this type...We need to focus more towards the Mark 2 (aircraft) and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) programme. We have the capacity and capability within the country to achieve this. Everybody has to come together to make it a success..."

It pains me to say that this AP Singh and some of his predecessors does not miss any chance to undermine our efforts. I mean, what the heck is he talking about when he says "it is a little too small" when the aircraft is built to IAF's specs? Either his words have been misinterpreted by the press, or the good air marshal does not understand what a "light fighter aircraft" is? I sincerely hope its the former.

Relax a bit. He's a man who's very intimate with the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A's capabilities, being a former Tejas test pilot and someone who's flown it solo as recently as 2 weeks ago.

He's talking about 200 Tejas fighters being ordered, which means that the 97 Tejas Mk1A order is as good as done. Just a matter of completing the formalities and then the contract will be placed with HAL. Those Tejas Mk1/Mk1As have a firm place in the IAF's orbat and plans for the next 3 decades.

His point is that the bigger Tejas Mk2 and AMCA offer more capabilities in terms of range, endurance and payload which is what the IAF is looking at. He didn't belittle Tejas as such.

[titash]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/1840972214096556076 ---> Delhi: On being asked about the future of the Indigenous Fighter aircraft programmes, Indian Air Force Air Chief Marshal AP Singh says, "I have been associated with the Tejas programme right from its flight testing days and it is very close to my heart. I know that this aircraft has the capability. It is a little too small of an aircraft for the current situation, however, we have such a place for an aircraft and we have ordered 200 plus aircraft of this type...We need to focus more towards the Mark 2 (aircraft) and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) programme. We have the capacity and capability within the country to achieve this. Everybody has to come together to make it a success..."

It pains me to say that this AP Singh and some of his predecessors does not miss any chance to undermine our efforts. I mean, what the heck is he talking about when he says "it is a little too small" when the aircraft is built to IAF's specs? Either his words have been misinterpreted by the press, or the good air marshal does not understand what a "light fighter aircraft" is? I sincerely hope its the former.

Sirjee,

There's nothing wrong in what the good ACM is saying.

(1) The LCA is indeed a light fighter that was meant to replace the MiG-21s and fit into the IAF's MiG-21 air base infrastructural footprint. It does that job perfectly

(2) As the icing on the cake, it has multi-role capabilities, precision strike capabilities, AESA radar, BVR capability, and in-flight refueling. Can't ask for more in a MiG-21 sized package

(3) The IAF always wanted 220 LCAs in the late 1990s and early 2000s, and they have ordered 40 + 83 + 97 which is the exact requirement

(4) The good ACM is quite correct in saying that the LCA in its current form factor cannot replace larger heavier aircraft like the Mirage 2000, the MiG-29, and the long range low-level DPSA Jaguars. These will need to be replaced by a single multi-role fighter i.e. the Tejas Mk2 with approx. 50 + 70 + 120 = 250 fighters that need replacement

(5) To be sure, the LCA can only carry 2 BVR + 2 CCM and have 2 drop tanks for a CAP role. Else 2 bombs + 2 CCMs with 2 drop tanks for a CAS role. It just can't carry much more, and it can't carry heavy air-to-surface weapons along with drop tanks. If you want to take the fight to the enemy, the Tejas Mk2 is a great option with at least 6 AAMs + AESA + internal EW/SPJ + simultaneous carriage of drop tanks & heavy air-to-surface weapons. Imagine what a fleet of 250 such aircraft can do

[basant]

Sometimes it is not what but how it is said makes a big difference. Someone in such an authoritative position cannot simply be casual about the statements. For example:

It is a little too small of an aircraft for the current situation, however, we have such a place for an aircraft and we have ordered 200 plus aircraft of this type.

How is that you have a place for 200 'such aircraft' and yet say 'little too small of an aircraft for the current situation'? Besides, 200+ such aircraft have not been ordered.

[sanjayc]

Little too small? I thought the objective initially given to the designers by air force was to make the smallest fighter aircraft in the world which will be affordable and light, considering its good experience with Gnat.

[Manish_P]

Little too small for the current situation

Meaning the China front (and the IOR) replacing the Pakistan front as the clear and present danger.

There is still a place for the Tejas

Meaning we still need it for the Pakistan front.
It will be good enough even if the Chinese get an air base in Pakistan and put J-10s. J-11s there

Having said that. We need them. In numbers. And quickly.

[Kartik]

Sometimes it is not what but how it is said makes a big difference. Someone in such an authoritative position cannot simply be casual about the statements. For example:

It is a little too small of an aircraft for the current situation, however, we have such a place for an aircraft and we have ordered 200 plus aircraft of this type.

How is that you have a place for 200 'such aircraft' and yet say 'little too small of an aircraft for the current situation'? Besides, 200+ such aircraft have not been ordered.

220 would be on order the moment the negotiations for the next contract for 97 Tejas Mk1A are finalized. That is nearly 10 squadrons of Tejas Mk1 and Tejas Mk1A. More than sufficient to meet a lot of requirements, but the focus has to shift to the larger Tejas Mk2 and AMCA.

I find nothing wrong in that description. It is a capable aircraft and he knows that fully well and stated exactly that. However, the fuel it can carry onboard is a definite drawback, one that afflicts all light combat fighters in that class.

Remember one thing- fighters that are in this class almost always will have to carry drop tanks due to the lack of sufficient internal fuel. Even though the F-404 is much more fuel efficient than a MiG-21's engine, it is still restricted in how much it can carry internally which adds drag, increases RCS. And the Tejas, like the Mirage-2000 and Rafale is a g-restricted fighter when carrying heavy loads. It's true of the JF-17 as well, where in an article in Air Forces Monthly, their Program Director talks about how the JF-17 almost always carries drop tanks since internal fuel is not sufficient for most sorties.

What I don't understand is why there is not a single person in the media that has asked the obvious question of why the IAF is not looking at a land based version of the TEDBF! If they can look at F-15EX, F-21, Gripen E, Rafale and Typhoon for their MRFA contest, then a land based ORCA variant of the TEDBF seems all the more sensible.

It would do two things at once- get much needed funds for the TEDBF program, amortize the development costs over a much larger number of airframes and most importantly, make the TEDBF a much more viable program overall.

I understand that they feel that they've already committed nearly half their future fleet to HAL, and may think of it as being too high a risk to place even more faith in them, but the fact is that the AMCA and TEDBF share a high degree of commonality and if a TEDBF is going to be developed, they may as well get 100 odd for themselves.

[basant]

Agree on TEDBF. On the bright side, IAF can be given a simple 'de-navlized' TEDBF with minimal changes. As of Tejas, 97 Mk1As being talked about are *not ordered*, yet. That's a factual mistake. IAF chief should be able to do simple communication. The statements attributed above, if true, are unflattering and could be a cause for concern given the nature of his job. Just my 2p.

[Jay]

Sirjee,

There's nothing wrong in what the good ACM is saying.

Titash ji, may be you are correct and maybe I'm over reacting. But the good marshals comment " It is a little too small of an aircraft " struck me in the same vein as the "three legged cheetah" comment.

[Rakesh]

Former Air Chief Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria on Why the IAF Needs 5th Generation Aircraft

[sanman]

del'd

[Rakesh]

GaN Radar Fabrication for AMCA

Saar, you are a hair's length away from a lifetime ban. Can you please do the following;

1) Post summary of the video when posting. Do not post the video by itself.

2) Please find the correct thread when posting videos. I had to move your post into this thread.

3) Please acknowledge that you have read my post.

This is your last and final warning.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1855975184907292887 --->

[sanman]

1) Post summary of the video when posting. Do not post the video by itself.

Hi, so I thought by summary, it means I could give a one-line summary (which I did up front)

2) Please find the correct thread when posting videos. I had to move your post into this thread.

I did look for this thread, and that's why I posted it there. I couldn't see anything called AMCA, so I thought MRCA was the same thing.

3) Please acknowledge that you have read my post.

This is your last and final warning.

How about I just delete the post?

[Rakesh]

Hi, so I thought by summary, it means I could give a one-line summary (which I did up front)

Just a brief summary (small para, 4 - 5 sentences) of what the video is about. You do not need to write a PhD thesis.

I did look for this thread, and that's why I posted it there. I couldn't see anything called AMCA, so I thought MRCA was the same thing.

MRCA is not the same as AMCA. Two different programs.

Even if you cannot find the thread, then state that you cannot find it...when you are making the post. Then I can move it to the right thread. Take some effort please.

How about I just delete the post?

Not necessary. Just do this going forward.

Thank you for your co-operation.

[wig]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/ii ... 1a85&ei=15

IISc-Bengaluru develops indigenous fuel injector for fighter planes, to be tested on Amca
excerpts

Researchers at the Indian Institute of Science (IISc) achieved a significant breakthrough in aerospace technology by developing a next-generation high-performance fuel injector system for fighter aircraft. It is slated for implementation in Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (Amca), India’s fifth-generation single-seater fighter jet.

“We’ve developed a new high-performance, high-shear swirl injector. It produces exceptionally small droplets, crucial for efficient fuel-air mixing and complete combustion,” Prof Saptarshi Basu, the lead investigator of the project, told TOI.

The innovative technology, developed as part of a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) Centre of Excellence for Propulsion Technology (CoPT) programme, represents a complete indigenous solution from design to testing. Basu’s team includes SK Thirumalaikumaran and Sonu Kumar.

“The high-shear fuel injector, developed through advanced 3D printing techniques, demonstrated superior performance compared to existing commercial alternatives across all key parameters, including droplet sizing, spray pattern formation, flame stability, and flow field consistency,” Basu said.

some other details

“This achievement represents a perfect marriage between fundamental fluid mechanics research and practical applications in aerospace technology. Our team utilised a sophisticated experimental facility capable of handling air supply up to 40 bar and maximum flow rates of 6 kg/second, enabling thorough testing of the injector’s capabilities,” Basu said.

[csaurabh]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/ii ... 1a85&ei=15

IISc-Bengaluru develops indigenous fuel injector for fighter planes, to be tested on Amca
excerpts

Researchers at the Indian Institute of Science (IISc) achieved a significant breakthrough in aerospace technology by developing a next-generation high-performance fuel injector system for fighter aircraft. It is slated for implementation in Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (Amca), India’s fifth-generation single-seater fighter jet.

“We’ve developed a new high-performance, high-shear swirl injector. It produces exceptionally small droplets, crucial for efficient fuel-air mixing and complete combustion,” Prof Saptarshi Basu, the lead investigator of the project, told TOI.

The innovative technology, developed as part of a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) Centre of Excellence for Propulsion Technology (CoPT) programme, represents a complete indigenous solution from design to testing. Basu’s team includes SK Thirumalaikumaran and Sonu Kumar.

“The high-shear fuel injector, developed through advanced 3D printing techniques, demonstrated superior performance compared to existing commercial alternatives across all key parameters, including droplet sizing, spray pattern formation, flame stability, and flow field consistency,” Basu said.

some other details

“This achievement represents a perfect marriage between fundamental fluid mechanics research and practical applications in aerospace technology. Our team utilised a sophisticated experimental facility capable of handling air supply up to 40 bar and maximum flow rates of 6 kg/second, enabling thorough testing of the injector’s capabilities,” Basu said.

What is the point of this without the engine. How can it be used in AMCA if the engine is being imported.

[basant]

Useful for AMCA Mk2. If not it's a part of a useful puzzle any day!

[Kartik]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/ii ... 1a85&ei=15

IISc-Bengaluru develops indigenous fuel injector for fighter planes, to be tested on Amca
excerpts

some other details

What is the point of this without the engine. How can it be used in AMCA if the engine is being imported.

Haven't heard of the 110 kN turbofan to be developed with a foreign partner for the AMCA?

[csaurabh]

What is the point of this without the engine. How can it be used in AMCA if the engine is being imported.

Haven't heard of the 110 kN turbofan to be developed with a foreign partner for the AMCA?

Engine to be developed with a foreign partner is a very vague idea at this point. But even if that is to be accepted, AMCA is a plane, not an engine.
It would have been useful to know how this improves on what is currently implemented in Kaveri engine for example rather than a vague idea of AMCA engine.

Swirl injectors are hardly a new technology. Dozens of them are used in Vikas engines which go into PSLV, GSLV etc.
Btw the work may be fine but the way in which the article is written is quite misleading. It says that it will be used in AMCA and then in civil aircraft. Which civil aircraft uses AMCA engine ? Also, who will give permission to randomly modify existing engines on civil aircraft to use a different injector component ?

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/RealAirPower1/status/1867040311559479804 ---> Visualizing the power of stealth. A comparative analysis of the first conventional and first stealth air strikes of Operation Desert Storm. Fewer aircraft, more targets, bigger impact. Info via the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1888515762647908747 ---> DRDO general press brief on AMCA (Unedited).

• AMCA is a Medium Weight category (all-up weight 25 Ton class), Multi-Role, Twin Engine 5th Generation Stealth Fighter Aircraft conceptualized and designed by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for use of Indian Air Force (IAF).

• AMCA is one of the most advanced 5th generation fighter and ADA is working on development of key 5th generation technologies like AI powered Electronic Pilot, Netcentric Warfare Systems, Integrated Vehicle Health Management, Internal weapon Bay, etc.

• The AI powered Electronic Pilot comprises with Multi Sensor Data Fusion to enhance Situational Awareness, Pilot Decision Support System, Automatic Target Identification System, Combined Vision System for navigation in poor visibility, manned & unmanned teaming etc.

• The implementation of AI based technologies in AMCA will force multiply the operational capabilities making AMCA as one of the most advanced 5th generation fighter aircraft among the contemporary aircraft.

• The implementation of AI in AMCA will force multiply the ADA in progressing the development activities.

• ADA is demonstrating the full scale engineering model in Aero India - India Pavilion to showcase the air prowess and technological advancements in the country. Design iterations are part of the development cycle.

• The present model being displayed is contemporary as of today and will be evolved during the development. This practice is followed across the globe by any combat aircraft design house.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/AsianetNewsEN/status/1888898107326263364 ---> Aero India 2025: India's AMCA Fighter Jet to Fly by 2028!

[Rakesh]

Official New Timelines On India’s Fighter Programs
https://www.livefistdefence.com/officia ... -programs/
09 Feb 2025

AMCA: 120 aircraft to be delivered starting 2036

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1888515762647908747 ---> DRDO general press brief on AMCA (Unedited).

• AMCA is a Medium Weight category (all-up weight 25 Ton class), Multi-Role, Twin Engine 5th Generation Stealth Fighter Aircraft conceptualized and designed by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for use of Indian Air Force (IAF).

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1888614938010419212 ---> AMCA's biggest positive will be low RCS but avionics enhancements are a positive. Tejas Mk2 will de-risk/field these as well (especially data fusion). Combined, both programs have 240 units (a viable run). Drop one, and the effort/risk scales heavily upwards.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/delhidefence/status/1888835159233048631 ---> And there we have a model of the indigenous AESA radar being developed for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (#AMCA) by @DRDO_India's LRDE. The scale is 1:2.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1888836241707397175 ---> Yeah, that's at 1: 2 scale. Nevertheless, the t/r module count is pretty much there. May not be the largest such array, but the AMCA is going to have one hell of a low probability intercept AESA. All thanks to the Uttam AESA program.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/livefist/status/1889190249936699774 ---> So, the @DRDO_India describes the AMCA as a ‘5.5 generation’ fighter. Official timelines: first flight in 2028 and deliveries from 2036.

[drnayar]

i am starting to assume that there would be different iterations for the AMCA with progressive stealth capabilities ., the engine exhaust as it is would surely light up on any IIR sensor ? .. gurus could opine on this .. apparently the Russians tried out the 3 axis flat nozzles of the Su57 only recently for IR reduction!

[V_Raman]

Some of these dates - - we are in matrix and all these planes are already flying invisible - we just cant see it - all mayaa onlee....

[S_Madhukar]

By the time it will be delivered IAF will ask to take out the pilot canopy so that it becomes 6th Gen
I really think we need to leap and scale up CATS and Ghatak on mission mode in secret instead of chasing the mythical 5 Gen

[Rakesh]

Some of these dates - - we are in matrix and all these planes are already flying invisible - we just cant see it - all mayaa onlee....

Bingo! Right on the money!

[Bharadwaj]

And it starts again...

Aero India 2025: AMCA design undergoes further tweak due to additional testing

https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/de ... al-testing

India's fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) will undergo yet another critical design review (CDR), after enhanced stress/load testing determined that the design required additional tweaks, according to a project official.

[Rakesh]

V_Raman called it!

[Bharadwaj]

DG Aero MR Jadhav sounding much more confident and laying out the road ahead. They are recruiting more people and I think they are focusing on the 414 as the engine right now.

AMCA to carry many 6th-gen techs; sensors to be proven in 1 year: Jitendra Jadhav, DG

[Cyrano]

Full scale mockups are for serial production and highly important for making enemy tremble. They're also very critical to making the enemy waste their munition bombing and strafing runways loaded with these mockups.

After all the years spent dreaming folks on brf have lost touch with reality

[Manish_P]

DG Aero MR Jadhav sounding much more confident and laying out the road ahead. They are recruiting more people and I think they are focusing on the 414 as the engine right now.

414 engine. So we might well face the same US shenanigans in the future.

[Aditya_V]

The F404 has been pretty reliable and both Russians and French have been equally reliable / unreliable.

Whatever achievement, must be made away from the public eye. But we must keep trying.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1889584077734289801 ---> AMCA timelines by Dr Samir V Kamat.

- Aircraft will have everything that F-35/Su-57 has.
- First flight by 2028-29 and production there after.

VIDEO: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1889639865823670633 ---> AMCA specifications, sensors and more.