Indian Army Aviation

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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: 14 Oct 2024 22:11 :lol: After spending nearly a $1 billion on six AH-64 Apaches, now the Army wants to lease Light Utility Helicopters.

Army looks to hire civil choppers for logistics on northern borders
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... s-9617495/
13 Oct 2024
https://x.com/KSingh_1469/status/1845836781888909398 ---> The @adgpi seems to enjoy making a mockery of itself and the Indian state as a whole. A grand total of six LUH have been committed to to date by these big brains. This is beneath a peacetime mentality.

https://x.com/KPSingh0809/status/1846030509714923601 ---> @DefenceMinIndia @rajnathsingh @PMOIndia @narendramodi ; this is happening under your nose. A mockery of #MakeInIndia. LUH is certified and yet no order placed for it, yet while using emergency powers to procure foreign jets. Can't @adgpi use emergency power to procure LUH?

https://x.com/KSingh_1469/status/1845876878369857782 ---> Joke is on the Indian taxpayer and institutions. Leasing is always more expensive per unit than owning. Forget about the fact that this starves Indian industry of scale, revenue, orders, etc.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: 14 Oct 2024 22:11 :lol: After spending nearly a $1 billion on six AH-64 Apaches, now the Army wants to lease Light Utility Helicopters.

Army looks to hire civil choppers for logistics on northern borders
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... s-9617495/
13 Oct 2024
Not to forget security implications...
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Army Taps Civil Helicopters To Sustain Winter Cut-Off Posts
https://bharatshakti.in/army-taps-civil ... off-posts/
14 Oct 2024
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: 12 Sep 2024 18:26 From the inexhaustible American MIC :lol:

Whose bright idea was this, to buy these uber expensive (and now delayed) platforms?

https://x.com/livefist/status/1834091060131217447 ---> Indian Army’s first Apache delivery delayed by a year owing to supply chain hurdles, reports @rahulsinghx. This is the second big U.S. supply deal that’s seeing delivery delays after the GE F404 engines for the Tejas MK1A.

https://x.com/rahulsinghx/status/1834058615667523785 ---> Six months after the army raised its first Apache sqadron to muscle up along the western border with Pakistan, not a single attack helicopter has been inducted as the manufacturer Boeing grapples with lingering supply chain hurdles that have slowed production.
Aur Apache Kharedo! :lol:

South Korea Reconsidering Additional U.S. AH-64E Apaches Due to Concerns Over Battlefield Vulnerability, High Cost
https://theaviationist.com/2024/10/28/s ... 64e-helos/
28 Oct 2024

South Korean officials questioned the wisdom of spending 70% of the Army’s annual budget on the Apaches considering how Russian attack helicopters were rapidly shot down by MANPADS during the Ukrainian war. Attack drones meanwhile have emerged as a cheaper and effective substitute.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: 29 Oct 2024 19:12 Aur Apache Kharedo! :lol:

South Korea Reconsidering Additional U.S. AH-64E Apaches Due to Concerns Over Battlefield Vulnerability, High Cost
https://theaviationist.com/2024/10/28/s ... 64e-helos/
28 Oct 2024
Surprisingly the South Koreans don't have indigenous attack copters and perhaps the industry lobby and media is pressurizing the government on it.

They (and the japanese) will have to get into UCAVs big time. The shorter distance of the chinese population and industrial centers (compared to India) will make it inevitable.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

VIDEO: https://x.com/Platypus_10/status/1863909635398246863 ---> This is how beautifully, an aviator retires from the Indian Army! Spending time and flying that beautiful machine for decades comes to an end.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Light Utility Helicopter, where art thou?

Indian Army Incorporates Civilian Helicopters In Operational Logistics Role

The Indian Army in the recently concluded Exercise poorvi Prahar used a civilian helicopter, in this case a Mi-17 helicopter, to transport material. This is the first time the army has publicised using a chartered helicopter in this manner. The usage of civilian helicopters acts as a major force multiplier for the armed forces as both in the north and in the north east there are many helicopter services that could be used. The move helps preserve the service life of the army’s helicopters, especially the Cheetah and Chetak helicopters that are nearing the end of their airframe life.

These light helicopters are to be replaced by the HAL built Light Utility helicopter. As a beginning the Indian Army has recently signed a contract with private firms to provide helicopters for logistics support to remote posts. The choppers will fly to 16 posts in the Jammu region. Another 28 posts will be connected via this initiative in both J&K and Ladakh for 150 days from next year. These helicopters are important as they are the life line of forward posts in extremely harsh terrain, and also during winter months. These helicopters are used to not only ferry men and material to these posts, but often are the only way to evacuate casualties.


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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: 03 Dec 2024 21:00 Light Utility Helicopter, where art thou?

Indian Army Incorporates Civilian Helicopters In Operational Logistics Role
...
Very disappointing, sir. I was very hopeful that this whirlybird would get lot of orders.

And second that those orders for us would also translate into some good export orders.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1866333569003430100 ---> BTW, a corps commander last week had a narrow escape when the Chetak helicopter in which he was flying made an emergency landing due to a technical snag in Rajasthan.

https://x.com/wartrophy_414/status/1866363618041713123 ---> Now who should we blame here? GoI who's been sitting on so many clearances & have utterly failed to fix the procurement, babus who just sit on files for years, the services that don't push for urgently needed stuff like LUH but you will see way more effort if same is imported.

https://x.com/wartrophy_414/status/1866364119638511804 ---> LUH is currently at LSP stages of which 12 airframes sent of services & they will work with it, test it out, & then recommend modifications etc. Then the usual procurement system where clearance news will be given regularly for yrs to show how vishwaguru gov is so good in defence.

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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1877271945319710949 ---> Apache attack helicopters for Indian Army delivered?

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1877285368837353564 ---> India signed a deal with Boeing to purchase six Apache attack helicopters for the Indian Army in February 2020 and delivery is further delayed :)

https://x.com/siriharusha/status/1877302125627101400 ---> @IAF_MCC why is the CAS not bringing this in public during his speeches?
VIDEO: https://x.com/OsintTV/status/1876589545468440822 ---> "We haven't even received the 40 Tejas aircraft till now which were ordered in 2009-2010..." : IAF Chief Air Marshal A.P Singh
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: 09 Jan 2025 18:57 ...
https://x.com/siriharusha/status/1877302125627101400 ---> @IAF_MCC why is the CAS not bringing this in public during his speeches?
...
Did any 'journalist' ask him ?
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote: 09 Jan 2025 23:12 Did any 'journalist' ask him?
How will journalist then survive Saar? :)

In the issues highlighted by the CAS about the 40 Tejas aircraft not delivered, any mention of the GE F404 delays?

With the delay in delivery of AH-64 Apaches to the AAC, will the COAS highlight the fault of Boeing being unable to deliver them on time?
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Army Chief throws weight behind ALH, says it will remain workhorse
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 17918.html
15 Jan 2025
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

:rotfl: Serves these Generals right! Aur Pado Brochure and Kharedo Apache!

A fever/cold (COVID) brought the mighty American MIC down to its knees. They (apparently!) have still not recovered from it.

Delivery of Apache attack helicopters from US for Army misses deadline again
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/d ... 2025-02-03
03 Feb 2025
* First batch of six Apache helicopters was due by December 2024
* India signed $600 million deal with US in 2020 to procure Apache choppers
* Apache helicopters crucial for Western front operations
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/livefist/status/1889250803958870188 ---> Coming up: More delays in AH-64 Apache delivery to the Indian Army and new details on why.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: 11 Feb 2025 22:11 https://x.com/livefist/status/1889250803958870188 ---> Coming up: More delays in AH-64 Apache delivery to the Indian Army and new details on why.
https://x.com/KSingh_1469/status/1889489962434703530 ---> So when is an Indian general coming out saying they have no confidence in Boeing?
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Shame on all the MUTUs on BRF who were peddling F-16 in the SE fighter contest. If there ever was "we-told-you-so" moment, the below it is.

And as friendly (take that with a bucket of salt) the Trump Administration might be, they are not going to last forever.

Also serves as a reminder as to why the MRFA contest is still alive. Air HQ can see the writing on the wall...

Biden Admin Delayed Apache Deliveries To India?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/biden-a ... -to-india/
13 Feb 2025
Top Indian government officers tell Livefist while supply chain issues have played a part in delays, India’s rising strategic proximity to the U.S. had thus far ensured not just on-time deliveries, but early deliveries in some cases. The officers say a distinct downturn in diplomatic ties in the shadow of the Russia-Ukraine war almost definitely saw Biden’s Pentagon turn the screws. In September 2024, a Hindustan Times report revealed that it was India’s ‘low ranking’ in a priority list of foreign customers was the reason for delayed deliveries of the helicopters.

What seems clear now is that frictions between the two governments starting in 2022 almost certainly resulted in the Biden Administration choosing to pull levers on that element of the India-US relationship — the defence trade — that has seen maximum continuity and consistency.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: 14 Feb 2025 05:18 Shame on all the MUTUs on BRF who were peddling F-16 in the SE fighter contest. If there ever was "we-told-you-so" moment, the below it is.

And as friendly (take that with a bucket of salt) the Trump Administration might be, they are not going to last forever.

Also serves as a reminder as to why the MRFA contest is still alive. Air HQ can see the writing on the wall...
https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1889248860691742961 ---> So the following Indian platforms run on GE gas turbine engines:
• INS Vikrant aircraft carrier
• The Nilgiri & Shivalik Class frigates
• NGMV (Next Generation Missile Vessel)
• P-18 Destroyers
• MH-60R helicopters
• AH-64E Apache
• LCA Mk1, Mk1A
• LCA Mk2
• AMCA
• TEDBF

https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1889250359832465686 ---> C-295, C-130, C-17, CH-47, MQ-9, HTT-40, all also run on Pratt & Whitney, Honeywell and Rolls Royce North America engines as well. P-8I ASW aircraft run on CFM Intl a consortium of GE and Safran.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/KDefenseInsight/status/18 ... 0491808181 ---> The ROK Army canceled its second AH-64E Apache project due to soaring costs and concerns over its vulnerability to cheap drones, as seen in the Russia-Ukraine war. Focus now shifts to unmanned systems for better survivability.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by williams »

Rakesh wrote: 14 Feb 2025 05:18 Shame on all the MUTUs on BRF who were peddling F-16 in the SE fighter contest. If there ever was "we-told-you-so" moment, the below it is.

And as friendly (take that with a bucket of salt) the Trump Administration might be, they are not going to last forever.

Also serves as a reminder as to why the MRFA contest is still alive. Air HQ can see the writing on the wall...

Biden Admin Delayed Apache Deliveries To India?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/biden-a ... -to-india/
13 Feb 2025
Unfortunately we would be in bigger trouble if we tilted away from Russia (if we even had that option). So GoI kind of balanced the whole thing. Bottom line is we need to build our own stuff and not be dependent on imports at this level. We have grown big enough where geopolitics will play a vital role in any such dependency.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by uddu »

It seems BR is little bit over reactive about happenings. Especially there is a major shift in the defense manufacturing sector within the nation. The import dependence is slowly coming down. Russians being the largest suppliers are the most affected. The joint ventures like Brahmos are no more visible as before. So this need to tilt to this camp or that camp is no more there. If there is something really so technologically advanced they have to offer, probably we may buy it. Also the increasing defense exports from within the nation is an interesting change as well.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

@ uddu: The import lobby has got its tentacles so deep inside the MoD and the services, that it will take decades (if ever) to overcome that impasse.

Stryker, H-125, P-75I, ATHOS, K9 Vajra...the list is endless. And each of the above platforms have (or in the works) an IDDM product in India. Still we are importing them. And then there is the mindless, illogical mother-of-all import acquistions i.e. the 114 MRFA contest. And the cherry on top is the F-35 offer. By the way, here is the latest on the MRFA ---> viewtopic.php?p=2640355#p2640355

Exports have zero bearing on what the services acquire. The Army's Artillery Corps is a prime example of this. Lets not delude ourselves into believing that there is a change happening. Various stakeholders are playing games to acquire the latest toy.

This current government - which has been in power for 10+ years now - has been utterly disappointing with Atmanirbhar Bharat. Not a single strategic program (turbofans, SSNs, SSKs, large scale [precision] manufacturing, etc) has been given its due attention. Rajnath Singh is just the latest example of defence ministers who are only there as token figure heads to rubber stamp / sign off on phoren acquisitions. Importing everything under various and nefarious legalistic babu-inspired schemes and programs.

For your reading pleasure (enjoy with popcorn) ---> https://www.mod.gov.in/sites/default/fi ... tPlgIC.pdf
^^^ Above link is the MoD's acquisition process.

When shit hits the fan (and it will), we will be left holding the short end of the stick.

P.S. Below is from the AMCA thread, but aptly describes all IDDM programs. Every word below is true. Let the reality sink in.

https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1890614124645658969 ---> Like many things in India happen for the sake of it rather than satisfying some fundamental needs. I’m sorry to say but the AMCA program is, for now, happening for the sake of India having a 5th gen program running. It isn’t run geared for a necessity with sense of purpose.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by uddu »

A lot is true. But for some reason there is a feeling that things are not as bad as we expect it to be.
Out of this list
Stryker, H-125, P-75I, ATHOS, K9 Vajra
Only K9 Vajra is inducted and there is so much opposition to Stryker. Even news of challenge to this import order is happening.
So overall direction of the nation is towards Atmanirbharta. Its really slow and frustrating for us as we expect fast paced changes.
The active questioning of political leadership in social media is a positive change. Also to and fro debates and discussion, clears a lot of misconceptions. Trend is positive. Need to push for orders of indigenous equipment and keep doing it.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Feelings have ZERO bearing on reality.

The slow, meandering acquisition process is exactly what the import lobby wants. It actually works in their favour. They want piecemeal ordering of local maal (40 Tejas Mk1 first, then 83 Tejas Mk1A later...then another 97 Tejas Mk1A down the road, at some point in the future). This sets the foundation for production hiccups, delays, etc for local maal. And then like a knight in shining armour comes the import platform to save the day. This is how the system is set up. No one wants to change that process.

And the same is happening for the Tejas Mk2 (100 first and will then do a "dekho" about the balance). Even the contract for the F414 assembly line in India is for 100 odd F414 turbofans. The follow on contract (aircraft + engine) will come when the Babu/MoD/Air HQ decides it is prudent to follow up on. But MMRCA and MRFA is at 126 and 114 respectively. There is no Plan B after all :P Import maal is not ordered in piecemeal mode.

Stryker will result in funds being diverted for an IDDM product (i.e. WHaP). Always remember that the money pot is finite, as money does not grow on trees. When you invest in one program, another program has to suffer. You cannot have both in optimal numbers. Even the time spent in discussing on how to acquire Stryker, shifts attention and focus (i.e. program planning/acquisition) for WHaP. And this is exactly what the import lobby wants. If you starve the IDDM product via time and energy, you then open the door for the foreign platform.

This is the same story with H-125 (LUH), P-75I (Project 76), ATHOS (buffet of IDDM artillery guns) and K9 Vajra. That last one, even Baba Kalyani mentioned it in this video ---> https://x.com/AryamanBharat/status/1895173495920959997

The overall direction is not towards Atmanirbharta, but it is towards import via the following MoD abbreviations;

(a) Buy (Indian - IDDM)
(b) Buy (Indian)
(c) Buy and Make (Indian)
(d) Buy and Make
(e) Buy (Global - Manufacture in India)
(f) Buy (Global)

The overall direction is towards the above (via smoke & mirrors) and lip service* towards Atmanirbharta by all the stakeholders. And you saar (and many others) are falling for this tomfoolery...hook, line & sinker.

*The lip service is present in every speech from the PM, PMO, RM, MoD, Service Chiefs and Service HQs. The eloquent waxing of Atmanirbharta is a sight to behold! No point in blaming the services alone for being import pasand, when their bosses (the elected politicians) do not care either.

You think General Sahab visited France on his own? ---> viewtopic.php?p=2640281#p2640281
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by konaseema »

All our services have exhibited that they won't place an order until all their requirements are met by any or all defense equipment manufactured locally in India. In spite of knowing this, crying wolf every now and then that we are purchasing from external vendors (where there is product maturity in many cases) when there is no agreement is in place, is becoming the latest trend here in BRF. There are enough media outlets whether getting paid or doing this to increase their circulation / viewership or to the YT channels that do this propaganda every time, there is a foreign OEM trying to sell its product to Indian defense services. LUH is the latest example and unless the noise reduction exercise is completed, neither IAF nor IA will place orders to HAL.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

If there is no enemy within, the enemy outside can do you no harm. That is an old African proverb.

India's enemies live within her own borders and hollow out the nation from within.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by uddu »

All the above being true, one thing stands out. The major import orders are also down drastically. in numbers, size and value. What used to be a 20-20 match now feels like a test match. There is a greater chance for der aye durast aye for indigenous weaponry. Observe closely, K9 Vajra did happen. Other than that which order is there that can be called out as happened and is against indigenous weaponry. contrary we are seeing large orders for Pinaka and the like.
Last edited by uddu on 28 Feb 2025 22:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

uddu wrote: 28 Feb 2025 22:00 All the above being true, one thing stands out. The major import orders are also down drastically. in numbers, size and value. What used to be a 20-20 match now feels like a test match. There is a greater chance for der aye durast aye for indigenous weaponry.
Please list the major import orders that are drastically down.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by uddu »

Smerch - Pinaka
Where is MMRCA other than the few Rafale? Dont think it will go anywhere as Tejas MK2 is close.
Interim, there is success for import of Apache. Seems that's the final.
Artillery guns, even though indigenous is not ordered, there is no import other than K9, which again is a small order. Dhanush is inducted.
Trishul class seems to be the last warships on import list when it comes to surface combatants.
Missiles-Astra and its variants has become the mainstay of BVRAAMs and so on
Pilatus PC-7 follow on order cancelled and HTT-40 induction by Sep
HJT-36 being considered
Kamov 226 is not heard about now, once LUH came.

Not saying there are no problems. Huge problems exist. But the list is slowly tilting towards indigenous weapons. Even the police force are going for Desi small arms. How far can the Army be? And how long can they hold out when tiny Armenia and Morocco fields Indian guns.
Last edited by uddu on 28 Feb 2025 22:18, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by bala »

konaseema wrote: 28 Feb 2025 21:51 All our services have exhibited that they won't place an order until all their requirements are met by any or all defense equipment manufactured locally in India.
This mentality of having a product to satisfy all their requirements is the crux of the matter which signifies the old "waterfall" model of thinking. This is counter productive since there is no product out there which will really satisfy all the requirements. Foreign maal is also a compromise, take the SU-30 MKI it is a gas-fuel guzzler and expensive to operate. The armed services has to compromise their requirements when they buy foreign maal and are lulled into thinking that videshi use them, so must be good enough. When F-35 started their program, the goal was to get 80% of requirements done and then the induction happened. Over time, the rest 20% was incorporated. This is the sensible way to go about product development.

The Indian armed forces should think on similar lines - get their topmost 80% must have requirements implemented locally and work for the rest, to come over time. This is the agile method of thinking. Local maal can be quickly inducted and supported because the Indian armed forces are with the same mentality as the developer of the product. This is how products are created, version 1 through version n until it is fitting to exact needs. There is no other magic involved. Work with Tejas MK1A then Tejas MK 2 then the AMCA and so on.

A light 1 engine helo is going to be simple first, then you add more features and make it versatile. Just asking for day one versatile features is a ridiculous way of thinking. You get the basics first and add the bells and whistles as you iterate the product.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by srai »

^^^
To name some examples, if you look at MiG-21, MiG-27, MiG-29, and Mirage-2000, these did not undergo MLU until decades after other nations already had done theirs. Su-30MKI still yet to undergo MLU to keep it modern for today’s environment. Already 25-years in.

Similar with IA and its entire equipment.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

I thought Apache deliveries were delayed, no? :lol:

VIDEO: https://x.com/DefenseAtlas009/status/18 ... 0176738307 ---> The moment of arrival of Moroccan Apache helicopters to the Kingdom of Morocco.

https://x.com/siddhar23716556/status/18 ... 9657012482 ---> Total pf six AH-64E Guardian Apache have arrived in Morocco.

Image
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Let this sink in... :mrgreen:

Boeing began manufacturing Morocco's first AH-64Es in late 2023 after receiving an order for 24 in June 2020.

In February 2020, India ordered six AH-64E Apache attack helicopters from the United States.

https://x.com/ShiroBarks/status/1896612638538575921 ---> Boeing priority levels:

1. Israel
2. USA
.
.
.
198. Gali ka Kutta
199. India
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