Indian Judicial System

[tandav]

Law is a matter of interpretation. Some lawyer told me that the same case with the same data apparently results in different ruling based on interpretation by the judge. This was a shocking revelation to me recently after getting entangled in some nasty legal matters. I intend to educate others in the practical ways of the Judicial system. Everything from how Judges behave, types of lawyers, try to explain why some lawyers charge Rs 70K per appearance and whether they are worth it. I highly encourage others to explain their own run ins with the legal system and outcomes thereoff so we all may learn best practices. The entire field is ripe for disruption with AI and other methods.

Any Business or Agency in India is subject to the laws of India. The actual workings of the Judicial System is pretty confusing to the lay person. In this opaque structure lies many problems and has increased the cost of justice to unimaginable levels with cheats easily gaming the situation and honest people getting stuck because of lack of knowledge. This thread will attempt to simplify or educate the public on how to handle or approach the legal system in India. Discuss better processes and approaches. What to do and what not to do.

[tandav]

Starting with Contracts. Apparently for a very long time people who had defaulted on contracts had managed to get away by claiming that the contract signed is not enforceable due to lack of it being stamped or sufficiently stamped. All contracts has stamp duty and insufficiently stamped contracts were held inadmissible / unenforceable. The confusion around this basically meant any contract (employment, Purchase order, Work Order) signed is legally unenforceable. Essentially meant that those who wanted to cheat would try to escape by citing the above issue.

Recently the supreme court had a 7 member bench that basically held that the above defect can be post facto cured by the litigant by paying the relevant stamp duty.

https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/non- ... urt-168265

There
https://www.livelaw.in/high-court/karna ... tescroll=1

[tandav]

In most contract laws such as issue of Purchase orders or Work Orders disputes are to be referred to Arbitration. However while the process appears fair on surface, note that the appointment of Arbitrator is an art and a savvy party can rig the system to deliver biased judgements.

It is critical that your lawyers be super competent and honest (this is more difficult than one may naively assume). A compromised lawyer can easily destroy your case (by not arguing your case with proper facts) in arbitration and once the judgement is passed on basis of cross questioning the sole Arbitrator may pass a judgement that can and will fly contrary to the face of any reasonable interpretation of law

[SriKumar]

Good thread, tandav. It is unimaginable pain for someone unfortunate enough to get tangled in the justice process which can take anywhere from 5 years to 30 years- people are born and die over such timescales. The new bills, as I understand, are to replace the current system of laws- a very major step, if true. Are pdf files of the text available anywhere? This thread, though is meant to educate people on practical specifics of current-day engagement on legal matters- and is a creditworthy endeavor.

[chetak]

Blow hot , blow cold......

Surprising how retirement often stiffens the spine of babooze and their extended tribe

[bala]

Esteemed tech people of this forum, consider this:
Proposal for Judgement System of INDIA (IJJIS):
We feed into the new INDIAN Judicial Judgement Information System (IJJIS, open to naming contest in Sanskrit) LLM (large language model) all the existing laws, precedent ruling, case model rules, etc and using GEN AI (generative AI) publish the entire set of Judgements for all existing cases, past and present. Can run this on super param computers.

Then compare the existing judgements that are produced with those presented up to now by Judges (reams of writing of esteemed judges of INDIA), then we should have a fair idea of how accurately the Judges applied the law. After a few trials and tweaks and with a decent scorecard for algorithms, we can make this as tool for the Judge (saves them hours of paperwork) to dispense with a case. Time saved, Judge looks like a miraculous hero after a cursory reading (person can become a speed reader) of gen AI material, provide their chaapa and lo and behold India gets the best judgement system due to computer and AI. Can also have automatic language translated scripts in regional language, hindi, sanskrit and optionally other international languages (for those challenged in Angrezi).

Using the system, we can keep metrics and pay special attention to where cases become ambiguous because of how laws were written. Send the feedback of such ambiguous laws back to the politicos with a suggestion of how it should be worded properly. The politicos vote for the amendments on a monthly/quarterly/yearly basis. In one shot India leapfrogs to first place in the world for speed of judgement. All doable in a short time!

[bala]

The entire Indian Judicial system is a borrowed britshit system, whose usefulness in the Indian context is a question mark. BTW the Britishits borrowed many judicial basis from the Manusmriti and Chanakya Neeti. They threw away the existing Panchayat System of India and brought in grey haired useless dudes to boss over the Indian population. Since they were thick behind their heads, they introduced time wasting tactics and wrote laws which can interpreted howsoever they wished depending on their whims and fancy. The entire Britshit laws need to be thrown out lock, stock and barrel and India needs to come up with proper sane laws which can be applied in the Indian context. Using computer programs we can leapfrog the staid, boring, time wasting existing system which is a scheme to drag down the economy and make some dudes rich and support mostly comprised judges on govt payroll for life.

How funny British laws made their impact on Indian judiciary? | Aditya Satsangi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP4zhar46B8

[Sachin]

The new bills, as I understand, are to replace the current system of laws- a very major step, if true.

The new bills only touch one part of the legal system. That is the criminal law. Contract Acts (which is being discussed here) is more on the civil law side. But the new Acts replacing the British made Indian Penal Code, Criminal Procedure Code, and Evidence Act. These three Acts/Code are the pillars of Criminal Justice system in India.

Indian Penal Code/ Bharthiya Nyaya Sanhita
1. Offences against women & children and then bodily injuries have been given precedence and now comes in the first chapters in the new Act. Earlier it was disorganised.
2. Community Service has now been introduced as a punishment.
3. Offences like stripping etc is made gender neutral. Women can be prosecuted for stripping another woman.
4. Organized crime, terrorism etc is now punishable offences under BNS itself. Supdt. of Police has the power to decide whether BNS sections have to be invoked, or other acts like UAPA should be used.
5. Sedition related offences are not there in BNS. Instead of that offences against the country (Deshdroh) has been introduced.
6. Lynching is now an exclusive offence by itself.
7. Punishment enhanced for hit & run offences.
8. Having s-exual intercourse, concealing identity (including religion) is now made an offence. #LoveJihad.
8. Fine amounts have been increased.

Code of Criminal Procedure/Bharatiya Nagarik Suraksha Sanhita
1. Posts of Judicial Magistrate 3rd class, Metropolitan Magistrate and Assistant Sessions Judge is abolished.
2. The court now have powers to issue summons over electronic medium (like e-mail, WhatsApp etc.). The BNSS provisions now allow liberal usage of advanced telecommunication, internet & video conferencing facilities.
3. Dangerous criminals can now be handcuffed.
4. More offences have been categorised in which the offender can be declared a "proclaimed offender".
5. For an offence with punishment of more than 7 years, forensic experts should visit the crime scene.

Evidence Act/Bharatiya Sakshya Adhiniyam
1. Documents to include electronic documents also.
2. Evidence now includes digital evidence as well.
3. Coercion to make a confession makes the confession inadmissable evidence.
4. Join trial can be held even if one of the accused is on the run, and declared "proclaimed offender".


These are just some of the changes brought in by the new laws. These Acts are yet to be rolled out and it is being done in stages. There will be a learning curve, and lot of commonly used Sections are now changing (Sec 320, Sec 420, Sec 497A etc. etc.). Right from the Police Head Constable/Station Writer all the way to Sessions Judges (and above) have to be trained to use these new laws and provisions.

[Sachin]

The entire Indian Judicial system is a borrowed britshit system, whose usefulness in the Indian context is a question mark.

I was shocked to find that the Articles related to Higher Courts (High Courts & Supreme Courts) are literally copied & pasted from the Govt. of India Act 1937 made by the British . So much for the Indianess of Constituition itself. The new Criminal Laws may bring in some difference, especially as the new Cr.PC mandates timelines for every aspect of a criminal case (investigation, trial, appeals etc.). The current judicial setup is suited for a tiny country like UK.

IMHO, there has to be some kind of limits on appeals. Example; for offences which carry max 7 years of RI or fine the last appeal should be to the High Court. If punishment is for a period 3 years or less, appeal can be to the District & Sessions court level only.

[tandav]

In many contracts today there is a clause for arbitration citing the arbitration and councilliation Act 1996. Technically this brings us close to the jury system.

The idea is to approach a neutral 3rd party to resolve disputess rather than approach courts. On paper this appears to be a good system, however the issue of corruption in which one party bribes the arbitrator to give a biased judgement is always there. The main issue is that an arbitral award is legally enforceable.

There is "rightly" immunity for the arbitrator for passing judgements, however the cost of against such defending such biased decisions is painfully high.

[Vayutuvan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGjukIeNCfU

Court Acquits 5 Accused Of Raising 'Sar Tan Se Juda' Slogan Against Nupur Sharma | English News
A court in Rajasthan's Ajmer District today ACQUITTED a dargah cleric (Syed Gohar Husain Chisti) and five others accused of inciting people and chanting the "Sar Tan Se Juda" slogan during a rally organised against Ex-BJP spokesperson Nupur Sharma in June 2022.

The slogan was allegedly raised during a public protest (at the main gate of the Ajmer Dargah) following Sharma's alleged comments about the Prophet Muhammad, which had sparked widespread outrage. Following her alleged remarks, she was also suspended by the BJP.


#sartansejuda #freedomofspeech #nupursharma #news18
n18oc_politics

[tandav]

Can a Jury system be used for Contract Law proceedings.
Currently contractual disputes get heard in Courts but most Judicial Officers have very little understanding of business. A better method would be to constitute a Jury of business folks themselves to adjudicate disputes.

A Brief writeup of the India Mediation Arbitration Adjudication Forum is here.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10q9 ... p=drivesdk

The current arbitration and commercial disputes system in India essential relies on retired judges to become Arbitrators and Mediators. Unlike USA where the largest arbitration / mediation platform is driven by businesses.

https://www.adr.org/

[Cyrano]

Paging Rahul Mehta Ji....

[a_bharat]

If we replace the judges at all levels with AI, we would get better justice in most cases, and most importantly quick closure. Currently, we neither have quality judgements nor closure in a reasonable time. Even if a proper judgement is given, it may take decades at which point it is as good as losing the case.

[Sachin]

Currently contractual disputes get heard in Courts but most Judicial Officers have very little understanding of business. A better method would be to constitute a Jury of business folks themselves to adjudicate disputes.

Over a period of time an ADR (Alternate Dispute Redressal) System is now available in India as well. And not all of these need a juidicial officer to hear the parties. Arbitration clauses are now part of a business contract. Contracting parties already decide on the arbitrators (who are not juidicial officers).

[ernest]

If we replace the judges at all levels with AI, we would get better justice in most cases, and most importantly quick closure. Currently, we neither have quality judgements nor closure in a reasonable time. Even if a proper judgement is given, it may take decades at which point it is as good as losing the case.

AI in the current and near future is unable to reason from first principles, and can easily be coaxed to give the preferred response by manipulating the question. Will not be able replace judges, but a lot of bureaucracy and judicial process efficiency can be improved in a lot of cases with AI based tools. They will have human in the loop, but the human might be able to dispose 5-10x cases. e.g. it can help search for and club similar cases almost instantly, which the judge can review and give a judgement that applies to all of them. Like a promotion related case for govt officers where similar principles apply. We get these by the lakh, and quick disposal of such routine cases will free up time for more serious ones.

[a_bharat]

I agree that there are limitations to AI. Even so, given the incompetent and corrupt judges and the time it takes to get a final resolution for a case, the results of an AI driven justice system would be far better than what we have. The people that go into legal profession in India are mostly those who couldn't get into other professions (with a few exceptions, of course). We can see so many clowns at Supreme Court level too.

[Cyrano]

Outgoing CJI names successor...

We will miss mohini aattam !

[tandav]

Currently contractual disputes get heard in Courts but most Judicial Officers have very little understanding of business. A better method would be to constitute a Jury of business folks themselves to adjudicate disputes.

Over a period of time an ADR (Alternate Dispute Redressal) System is now available in India as well. And not all of these need a juidicial officer to hear the parties. Arbitration clauses are now part of a business contract. Contracting parties already decide on the arbitrators (who are not juidicial officers).

I would strongly advise parties not to allow arbitration clause seated in India in their agreements.

Informal mediation before approaching courts is ok but formal arbitration clauses are dangerous due to 1) Lack of remedy against biased judgements 2) Lack of accountability of the adjudicating officer most of whom are retired judges 3) Arbitration award is equivalent to a judicial award 3) Arbitration process happens outside public scrutiny (what little public outcry can come against biased judgements vanishes) 4) Setting aside an award is generally not done at lower courts and you will have to approach higher court to set aside award and very likely have to fight until supreme court which is super expensive and time consuming.

Better take a chance in court rather than arbitration. Arbitrators in India can be more easily be corrupted than sitting judges of courts to give windfall type awards favoring one party and destroy opponents with very liberal/imaginative interpretations of law.

[Cyrano]

[tandav]

Mexico has made it mandatory for Judicial Officers to be elected directly by the public. Seems like an interesting idea. Lets see if it improves Judicial accountability and speed.

The move was orchestrated by Outgoing President Obrador and apparently has 80% public acceptance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Mexi ... ial_reform

Most Judges resigned.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/31/amer ... index.html

[tandav]

Mexican Judicial Reform: Key Points

To be eligible as a candidate for a judicial position, individuals must be Mexican citizens by birth, have no serious criminal convictions, hold a law degree with a minimum grade point average of 8, have at least five years of relevant professional experience, submit a series of essays on pertinent legal topics, and provide five reference letters outlining their qualifications. Candidates cannot have held roles as members of the federal cabinet, attorney general, president, federal deputy, senator, or governor during the year before the election.[3][77]

A special election will be held in 2025 to elect new Supreme Court justices and fill half of all judicial positions. The remaining half would be elected in 2027.[3]

Judicial anonymity
The reforms allow for cases involving organized crime to be heard by "faceless" judges.[78][79] The provision was introduced by the Chamber of Deputies during the bill's committee stage in response to a suggestion floated by López Obrador during his daily press conference some days earlier.[80]

Judicial oversight
The reform proposes replacing the Federal Judiciary Council with the Judicial Disciplinary Tribunal. The tribunal would consist of five members elected by popular vote to serve a single six-year term, with the presidency rotating among the members who receive the highest number of votes. The tribunal would have the authority to sanction, suspend, or remove judges, and its decisions would be non-appealable.[81]

Changes to the Supreme Court
The number of justices on the Supreme Court would be reduced from 11 to 9 and the length of their terms would be reduced from 15 to 12 years.[2] Additionally, the term of the Supreme Court president would be shortened to two years and would rotate among the justices with the highest vote counts.[82]

Salaries
A salary cap would be imposed on all judges, ensuring that no judge's salary exceeds that of the president. Retiring judges would receive three months' salary and 20 days' pay per year of service.[83]

[tandav]

I am super impressed with the Chinese justice system. It combines the Judge and Jury system quite beautifully and ensure speed of justice. No wonder China enjoys so much peace and prosperity.

https://www.chinajusticeobserver.com/a/ ... e_vignette

Witness the speed and clarity of judgement. Crime committed in Jun 2024 and a deterrent punishment given in Jan 2025. I am fairly certain that the sentence will be carried out post haste. If you want to know why China is safe and open credit must be given to the police and judicial system that is efficient, competent, uncorrupt (due to presence of Public assessors)

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/01/24/asia ... index.html


Excerpts:

In particular cases, people’s assessors will take part in a collegial panel to hear cases with judges, in which only judges can act as the presiding judge.

According to China’s Civil Procedure Law (CPL), the people’s assessors have equal rights and obligations as judges. [1]Therefore, in the court, they sit at the bench.

Generally, there may be a three-member collegial panel composed of at least one judge and one-two people’s assessors, or a seven-member collegial panel composed of three judges and four people’s assessors.

The people’s assessors have the same “one person, one vote” right as judges in the collegial panel, which follows the principle of majority rule.


In the three-member collegial panel, the people's assessors can independently express opinions and exercise the voting rights regarding the fact-finding and application of law.

However, in the seven-member collegial panel, the people’s assessors can only express opinions and make their votes independently on fact-finding; while regarding the application of law, they can only express opinions but are excluded from voting.

The court chooses people’s assessors randomly from their list.

II. What kind of cases can be heard by the people’s assessors?

People’s assessors can only participate in cases of the first instance, as prescribed by Article 39 of CPL. More detailed regulations are provided in the “Law of the People's Republic of China on People's Assessors”(人民陪审员法) in 2018 and its judicial interpretation, i.e. the “Interpretation of the Supreme People’s Court on Several Issues concerning the Application of the Law of the People's Republic of China on People's Assessors” (最高人民法院关于适用《中华人民共和国人民陪审员法》若干问题的解释) in 2019.


Where a criminal, civil, or administrative case of first instance falls under any of the following circumstances, the case shall be tried by a collegial panel composed of people’s assessors and judges: 　　

(1) involving the interests of a certain group or public interests;

(2) attracting extensive attention of the general public or otherwise having great social impacts;

(3) the complexity of the case or other circumstances requires people’s assessors to participate in the trial.

The following cases of first instance shall be heard by a seven-member collegial panel consisted of people’s assessors and judges:

(1) criminal cases with great social impacts where fixed-term imprisonment of no less than ten years, life imprisonment or death penalty may be sentenced;

(2) public welfare lawsuits filed in accordance with the Civil Procedure Law of the People's Republic of China and the Administrative Litigation Law of the People’s Republic of China;


(3) cases with great social impacts, involving land requisition and house demolition, ecology and environment protection, and food and drug safety;

(4) other cases with great social impacts.

Additionally, where the defendant to a criminal case of first instance, plaintiff or defendant to a civil case, or plaintiff to an administrative case files an application for people’s assessors to participate in the collegial panel of the trial, the people’s court may decide whether to form a collegial panel composed of people’s assessors and judges.

People’s assessors shall not participate in the trial of the following cases:

(1) cases of second instance; [2]

(2) civil cases tried under the summary procedure, which shall be tried by a sole judge; [3]

(3) cases that are subject to trial under special procedures, the procedure of urge and supervision, and the procedure for publicizing public notice for assertion of claims in accordance with the CPL;


(4) cases on applying for recognition of a divorce judgment made by a foreign court;

(5) cases that are rejected by a ruling or cases of which the court trial is not required; [4]

(6) cases in which the people’s assessor has previously mediated as a people’s mediator. [5]

III. How do people’s assessors generate?

People’s assessors are generated through the following steps.

Firstly, the Bureaus of Justice of local governments, the courts at primary level and the public security organs in that jurisdiction shall randomly select from local permanent residents under its jurisdiction as candidates of people’s assessors, and then conduct qualification examination of the candidates, and solicit their opinions.

Secondly, the Bureaus of Justice of local governments and the courts at primary level shall randomly select and determine people’s assessors from the candidates' list.


Thirdly, the presidents of the people’s courts at primary level shall request the standing committee of the people’s congresses at the same level to appoint such people’s assessors.

Eligible people’s assessors should meet the following requirements:

(1) Chinese citizens;

(2) having reached the age of 28; and

(3) having good ethics and being in good health.

Whoever falls under any of the following circumstances is not qualified to serve as a people’s assessor: [6]

(1) members of the standing committees of people’s congresses, and staff of supervisory committees, people’s courts, people’s procuratorates, public security organs, state safety organs, and administrative organs of justice；

(2) lawyers, notaries, arbitrators, and basic legal service workers；


(3) whoever having been given a criminal penalty;

(4) whoever are dismissed from public office;

(5) whoever has his or her lawyer’s or notary’s practicing license revoked;

(6) whoever is included in the list of dishonest judgment debtors;

(7) whoever having been removed from the post of people’s assessors due to disciplinary measures;

(8) persons who are unfit to serve as people’s assessors due to other post-related reasons, or those having committed other serious offenses or disciplinary violations which may affect judicial credibility.

[tandav]

So we have the Indian Police and Judiciary working overtime over a comedian who made shock value vulgar remarks to a private adult audience who paid for this event and which has very little long term relevance to the prosperity and progress of India. The entire episode shows that there is systematic rot in governance, police and judiciary.

Why no such alarcity was shown in Atul Subhash case against the Judge and no FIR filed by any of the political parties and / or NGOs etc. No alarcity was shown in matter of much more public importance.

We need to teach kids elements of law in school itself. unless you know the law, how can you be expected to follow it.

[Hriday]

Not directly related, but an interesting perspective on legal language. Elon Musk shared this on X, saying that it is so true. He also strongly commented against the unaccountable nature of judiciary and bureaucracy. Hopefully these kind of talks will gain attention in India and there will be demand for the change.

https://news.mit.edu/2024/mit-study-exp ... style-0819

MIT study explains why laws are written in an incomprehensible style.
The convoluted “legalese” used in legal documents conveys a special sense of authority, and even non-lawyers have learned to wield it.

That analysis revealed that legal documents frequently have long definitions inserted in the middle of sentences — a feature known as “center-embedding.” Linguists have previously found that this kind of structure can make text much more difficult to understand.

“Legalese somehow has developed this tendency to put structures inside other structures, in a way which is not typical of human languages,” Gibson says.

“We have learned only very recently what it is that makes legal language so complicated, and therefore I am optimistic about being able to change it,” Gibson says.

[williams]

I agree that there are limitations to AI. Even so, given the incompetent and corrupt judges and the time it takes to get a final resolution for a case, the results of an AI driven justice system would be far better than what we have. The people that go into legal profession in India are mostly those who couldn't get into other professions (with a few exceptions, of course). We can see so many clowns at Supreme Court level too.

Data behind AI can be biased. However the first step is to capture all the necessary data right from the FIRs. If we have a nation wide database then lawyers, judges, law enforcement people all of them can at least see that data. Having a LLM to device a recommendation should be ok, Judge can be a final decision maker.