Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

[Aditya_V]

12 Su 30MKI for 13000 crore- I strongly suspect from 2020, DAC clearance that these will be Super Sukhoi- it has taken 4.5 years to work out the modalities. May be AL 31FN is also thrown in place of AL 31FP, once these 12 are ready the whole fleet will go for this standard.

[Kartik]

AI big focus of Su-30MKI upgrade, IAF taking up projects with IIT Mumbai

Financial aspects of the upgrade to the first batch of 84 SU-30MKI jets are being worked out and the comprehensive upgrade would start as soon as it is approved by the government, says official

The financial aspects of the comprehensive upgrade to the first batch of SU-30MKI jets are being worked out and the process would start as soon as it is approved, a senior official of the Indian Air Force said. It can take around five to seven years to update the batch of 84 jets, and the IAF has taken up pilot projects with the Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay in regard to Artificial Intelligence-based engine and asset maintenance solutions, as well as for spares and inventory optimisation, he added.

“The financial aspects are being worked on. Once that is sorted out and the government authorises it, the upgrade will commence. If the government clears it, say early next year, we should start straight away. They have to do their due diligence for such a big project,” Air Marshal C.R. Mohan, Air Officer Maintenance told The Hindu in an interview ahead of his retirement on October 31. “I would imagine it would take at least five to seven years. By the time it is fully realised, it takes that time for certifying, testing, modification etc. It is a major upgrade. These are ball park figures and not project figures,” he stated.

The Defence Acquisition Council has already given preliminary approval for the upgrade of 84 SU-30s. The IAF has a fleet of 259 Su-30MKIs, of the 272 contracted and manufactured in India under licence from Russia. Former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal V.R. Chaudhari had stated earlier that the 84 jets will see the upgradation of 51 systems with an indigenous content of 78%. The Su-30s will constitute a bulk of the IAF’s fighter strength for the foreseeable future and will remain in service beyond 2055.

While most of the upgrades will be carried out by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), original equipment manufacturer Russia would be involved in upgrading the fly-by-wire system and integration of systems, among others. A majority of the upgrades, including radar and avionics, will be indigenous.

On the total number of jets that would be upgraded, the official said that would be planned based on the residual life. “We might do a limited upgrade for aircraft with limited life,” he observed.

...

The IAF has embarked on the path of automation and AI with the motto of “minimal human intervention, maximum combat potential” for the maintenance and overhaul of its diverse fleet, and inventory management.

[srai]

^^^

…
On the total number of jets that would be upgraded, the official said that would be planned based on the residual life. “We might do a limited upgrade for aircraft with limited life,” he observed.
…

Again highlights why the IAF did not order more Su-30MKI as replacements for the really old airframes (~30-years old already)?

[sanman]

Pak source says India is 'panic-buying' (useful to hear what the other side is saying)

[Kartik]

^^^

…
On the total number of jets that would be upgraded, the official said that would be planned based on the residual life. “We might do a limited upgrade for aircraft with limited life,” he observed.
…

Again highlights why the IAF did not order more Su-30MKI as replacements for the really old airframes (~30-years old already)?

Because they will be able to fly for another 10 years at least. By when there should be AMCA Mk1 close to ready to inducted. And the AMCA will replace the Su-30MKI eventually.

[Kartik]

Pak source says India is 'panic-buying' (useful to hear what the other side is saying)

It's a piece of BS YT channel. The fools there don't know how long the plan has been going on to buy 12 Su-30MKIs as attrition replacements.

[srai]

^^^



Again highlights why the IAF did not order more Su-30MKI as replacements for the really old airframes (~30-years old already)?

Because they will be able to fly for another 10 years at least. By when there should be AMCA Mk1 close to ready to inducted. And the AMCA will replace the Su-30MKI eventually.

There are lot of old platforms that will need replacing over the next 10-15 years:
* 5 sqdn x Jaguars
* 3 sqdn x MiG-29
* 3 sqdn x Mirage-2000

Now Su-30MKIs as well.

All the indigenous replacements are at design stage more or less.

The way things are heading there will be more imports even after the 6x MMRCA/MRFA.

[maitya]

My slight criticism of the Super Sukhoi upgrade program, is limiting it only to our time-tested just-another avionics-only upgrade program. If we are going to spend so much of time (7-10years for a measly 84 units) and effort, we should have included the following as well, IMVHO:

1) Structural modifications: Migration of the Tail Fins, Tailplanes, Wings and maybe even the canards, to Co-cured Co-bonded tech based CFC structures. Apart from the obvious weight-savings, it'd have done wonders wrt RCS reduction**.
This would have most-probably entailed change to the static stability margin etc, but if we are anyway going to have large changes to the FBW system, this could have been also incorporated, IMVHO.

Do note CoCured-CoBonded CFC tech is already implemented in many of our programs (e.g. the vertical stabilizer, Engine Bay Doors of the Mk1 and Mk1A etc), so nothing like spectacularly-tough or anything. Yes, for such large structures (especially the wings) of this mammoth platform, the Autoclaves involved would be an order larger and complexity, but that should have been doable.

2) ASPJ on Tailfins: The indigenous ASPJ units, should have been segregated into the lighter/sleeker module containing the ATRU and VAAU modules and the bulkier (and heavier) LFM*** and the ERP modules, combined into a single module.
That way front-and-aft combined ATRU & VAAU units can go to top-of-the-Tail-Fin while the combined module containing the LFM and ERP modules in an expanded boxy-bulge at the root of the Tail Fin (a la our-own MK2, F-16, maybe Gripen as well).
The two tail-fins could have accommodated the pair of front-and-aft ATRU (and VAAU) and the corresponding pair of ERP (and LFM) modules.

Remember we do not know weight of the currently proposed indigenous ASPJ pods - but if they turn out to be heavier than the std ASPJ pods (~130Kg), it'd then start impacting the flight envelop etc, something the current SAP-518 pods were/are infamous for.
(Though the LCAs external ASPJ unit weighs approx 130 odd Kgs (maybe even lower), whilst the collocated digital RWR units adds another 20-25 odd Kgs).

3) Integrated MAWS on the wingtip: Moving the ASPJ units from the wingtips to tailfins, would allow for carrying a pair of indigenous DMAWS in those wingtips.

4) A central LAD in the cockpits: Preferably on both, but atleast for the pilot - along-with a side-stick controller.

5) An attempt of MADL equivalent, if possible

6) Deliberately not bringing the TF engine into this - I doubt we'd have agreed anything lesser than the Izdeliya-30 tech transfer etc

==========================================================================
** Simplistically speaking,
a) The RCS reduction via CFCs are by a factor of minm 1/31th of Ti (given the diff in their respective dielectric constants) in X-band.
b) Vertical Stabilisers are single biggest contributor to RCS

[Anujan]

Pak source says India is 'panic-buying' (useful to hear what the other side is saying)

My sources also told me that India is replacing all canopies and seats in its fighter jet fleet with great panic because Pakistani fighter pilots are tall with very tight musharraf. They want to recruit indian pilots too who are tall with tight musharraf for whom the current canopy and seats dont work.

[ernest]

==========================================================================
** Simplistically speaking,
a) The RCS reduction via CFCs are by a factor of minm 1/31th of Ti (given the diff in their respective dielectric constants) in X-band.
b) Vertical Stabilisers are single biggest contributor to RCS

That's amazing. Tejas must have a very small RCS then compared to Su30.

[Kartik]

HAL wins contract to produce 12 Su-30MKIs

The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) awarded a contract to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on 12 December to produce 12 Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, over a year after the country's Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) accorded an Acceptance of Necessity (AoN), approving the procurement.

The contract, which is worth INR135 billion (USD1.5 billion), also includes associated equipment, India's Press Information Bureau (PIB) said. The contract value is inclusive of taxes and duties, the PIB added.

The new batch of aircraft will have an “indigenous content of 62.6%” due to the inclusion of “many components to be manufactured by the Indian defence industry”, the PIB said. The aircraft will be manufactured at HAL's Nashik factory facility.

The announcement of the contract follows the DAC's AoN, which was issued in September 2023. Janes has previously reported that the contract is part of a five-year effort by the Indian Air Force (IAF) to procure 12 additional Su-30MKIs to replace attrition-related losses.

Accident data assembled by Janes shows that 10 Su-30MKIs have crashed since 2012, with the most recent loss occurring on 4 June when an IAF Su-30MKI crashed during a test flight while under overhaul by HAL at its Nashik facility.

HAL and the IAF could not be reached for comment at the time of publication.

For more information on this matter, please see India approves procurement of additional Su-30s .

[Manish_P]

..
That's amazing. Tejas must have a very small RCS then compared to Su 30.

DACT exercises between the Su-30MKIs and the Tejas would be very interesting

[maitya]

==========================================================================
** Simplistically speaking,
a) The RCS reduction via CFCs are by a factor of minm 1/31th of Ti (given the diff in their respective dielectric constants) in X-band.
b) Vertical Stabilisers are single biggest contributor to RCS

That's amazing. Tejas must have a very small RCS then compared to Su30.

Well theoretically, since the conductivity of the Carbon Fibers are several order of magnitude lower than the metals, and also since Carbon Fibers does allow some amount of radar energy absorption, CFC objects have significantly lower RCS than Ti.
So in X band, compared to an Ti object, a CFC object is supposed to exhibit 15dB to 25dB RCS reduction - and 15dB RCS reduction means, RCS is reduced by factor of 31.

Thus compared to an Ti object of, say, 2sqm RCS, for an exact same geometry of an CFC object, the RCS would come to 2/31 sqm = 0.065sqm.

Having said that, the shape of the object significantly impacts the RCS, so such theoretical calc is not much of any value - however for CFC objects, depending on the exact composition (resin content, fiber orientation, additives used etc), RCS can vary quite a bit.

[Sumeet]

==========================================================================
** Simplistically speaking,
a) The RCS reduction via CFCs are by a factor of minm 1/31th of Ti (given the diff in their respective dielectric constants) in X-band.
b) Vertical Stabilisers are single biggest contributor to RCS

I will add visible engine blades to your list -- engine blade blocker must be explored. These three should have been addressed because MKI Super 30 will operate in a dense mix of IADS, AWACS, 4.5, 5th Gen & 6th Gen fighters operating in a network centric way.

Do you think BNET from Rafael can address MADL gap in IAF infrastructure ?

IAF is strategizing about net centric warfare. More read from IAF itself:

https://indianairforce.nic.in/wp-conten ... 01/2MB.pdf

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1867514382676369713 ---> Astra Rafael Comsys has bagged a ₹255.88 crore order on 13 Dec 2024 from MoD for procurement of 93 additional sets of Software Defined Radios (SDR) LRUs with A kits, SBC 2 card and Network Centric Operations application for IAF Su-30MKIs. Order to be executed in 2 years.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/livefist/status/1867221080110403668 ---> BREAKING: Indian MoD signs contract with HAL for procurement of 12 Su-30MKI aircraft worth ₹13,500 crore. This dozen is to replace attrition over the years.

https://x.com/YusufDFI/status/1867502212748128613 ---> 12 Su-30s will come at 1,125 crore a pop. At one time HAL had offered additional 40 at 425 crore. The acquisition for 12 was first announced at the peak of India-China tensions in 2020 in “fast track” mode. CCS approval comes 4-1/2 years later, after India-China disengagement.

[srai]

https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1889622188346532243

So Virupaksha is 1:1 replacement for Bars. No modifications required to the existing GP-25 generator on AL31FP.

GP 25 already has a capacity of generating 60 kVA nominally.
…

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/VinodDX9/status/1891502896539148354 ---> Two GaN radars for the IAF Su-30MKI: "Virupaksha" from LRDE and "Hawk I" from Data Patterns. It's quite interesting that now even Indian private sectors are offering GaN AESA.

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1891524651500601847 ---> Left is a variant of Uttam for Su-30MKI. Right is Data Patterns' proposal for Su-30MKI. Far less mature. Will take time to mature supply base, indigenize, do actual flight trials. In past, supplied hardware to DRDO for a simpler naval surveillance radar. DRDO helped with design, software.





https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1891527158524412324 ---> Apparently this is GaN-based AESA for Su=30MKI, but I was told that this is the same PESA i.e BARS specification radar which is mounted on a swashplate. I think the presenter was unaware of the specs maybe. Zoom in for the configuration in the background. This is a beast of a radar. 350km target tracking for 5sqm RCS, 250km for 2sqm and 200km for 1sqm.

https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1891530377262407715 ---> There is one for MiG-29 and LCA also.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/delhidefence/status/1891549197989482796 ---> Gaze & drool. Su-30MKI carrying two RudraM-III aka precision sledgehammers. Upwards of 1.5 tons, 6 meters long & packing an almighty wallop. Sweet dreams.

https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1891528444824944890 ---> Captive carriage trials of RudraM-III has already started at least eight months back. Here Su-30MKI is carrying 2 RudraM-III, 2 R-77 and 2 SAP-518 on the wing tip stations. RudraM-III weighs more than 1,500 kg and has a 500+ km range. t’s a hypersonic air launched ballistic missile.

[Hriday]

Do people here remember the poster JCage? There have been a lot of informative posts from him in military threads. I still remember one post made by him on the SU-30.

He said that SU-30 carrying huge amounts of fuel inside the body allows it to play a 'fuel game' against enemy medium-range fighter jets. SU-30 will charge against the enemy and disengage just before the time for missile firing. Then quickly turn around and charge at the retreating enemy again. This continuous engagement and disengagement will involve supersonic speeds and it will quickly deplete the fuel.
And when the enemy realises that it is low on fuel and turns to run away, the SU-30 will chase it for the kill. One must keep in mind that medium-range fighter jets carry lots of fuel in at least two large external pods and have to quickly jettison it if enemy fighter jets charge them. It is impossible to do a decent manoeuvre while carrying large fuel pods.

[Aditya_V]

Isn't that what happened on 27 Feb 19, plus using jamming, a certain missile called a "Slammer" for it's hit record, missed 5 out 5 times on Avenger 1, turning Swift Retort to swift retreat. And Paki revenge for 26 Feb 19 went bust

[Manish_P]

... One must keep in mind that medium-range fighter jets carry lots of fuel in at least two large external pods and have to quickly jettison it if enemy fighter jets charge them. It is impossible to do a decent manoeuvre while carrying large fuel pods.

Also if the Su-30 MKI is armed with one very long range AAMs it can release one at extreme range and scare the opponent into jettisoning it's fuel tanks and turning tail with full afterburner.

Now imagine a Su-57 (or AMCA) with large amount of fuel, much more than the opposing MRA, and long range AAMs, both carried internally

[ernest]

That's why the Chinese went big with the J-36 (?) . Even if they had to use 3 engines.

[Aditya_V]

From our point of view, then such an Aircraft would Impractical to keep airbase in Tibet, it would need huge Runways at altitude.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1892144951481242017 ---> Su-30MKI's MFD For the Upgrade by Data Patterns.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO:https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1894010243262099602 ---> IAF Su-30MKI buddy refuelling LCA Tejas.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/shreedharsingh9/status/18 ... 3056739833 ---> We have also developed missile warning receiver for Su-30MKI.

[srai]

^^^
https://x.com/reach_defence/status/1889345968258306102 ---> Update on DRDO MAWS

- IRDE has taken lead in developement of higher indigenization content MAWS weapons system,

- 6 unit, 1 computer and 1 cooler configuration in the form of LRUs have already been communicated to LCA Mk2 design folks and also accommodated.

- Same with IRST

[Manish_P]

From our point of view, then such an Aircraft would Impractical to keep airbase in Tibet, it would need huge Runways at altitude.

The Chinese went with that approach didn't they.. they found it pragmatic to simply build longer runways till their engine tech got matured.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/shreedharsingh9/status/18 ... 6756351063 ---> Su-30MKI is able to carry four Rudram-IIIs. Su-30MKI with Rudram-III would be a beast.

[srai]

https://x.com/Praneethfrank/status/1458 ... 48/photo/1

10K resolution composite image of Flat Spin sequence of Su-30MKI!

[srai]

Praneeth Franklin - IAF Su-30MKI Full Aerobatic Display

This is a 'never-before-seen,' ultra-stable, anti-cinematic, 9 minute director's cut of the Indian Air Force Flanker-H captured during Aero India 2023 with the Nikon Z9 + Z400mm 4.5 VR S / Z800mm 6.3 PF VR S.
Highly recommend watching in 4K on a large display! Enjoy!