Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[Rakesh]

Ab to pick up ho gaya... The story is likely to run and run.

‘No Confidence’: IAF Chief Scolds HAL
https://www.livefistdefence.com/no-conf ... colds-hal/

https://x.com/livefist/status/1889547727299813753 ---> HAL chairman Dr D.K. Sunil responds on the IAF Chief’s words.

VIDEO: https://x.com/amanroutray7/status/1889552534655861138 ---> Here's the video, courtesy @NDIndiaFirst

[Rakesh]

Ab to pick up ho gaya... The story is likely to run and run.

‘No Confidence’: IAF Chief Scolds HAL
https://www.livefistdefence.com/no-conf ... colds-hal/

VIDEO: https://x.com/mjavinod/status/1889602809076822111 ---> I have known Air Chief since he was a Squadron Leader. One who speaks the truth and keeps country’s interests above everything else. My effort of de-mystifying “Maza Nahi Aa Raha Hai” statement on HAL from Aero India.

[Rakesh]

Ab to pick up ho gaya... The story is likely to run and run.

‘No Confidence’: IAF Chief Scolds HAL
https://www.livefistdefence.com/no-conf ... colds-hal/

https://x.com/ItsShubhangi/status/1889335212867506347 ---> "Maza Nehi Aa Raha," Indian Air Force Chief tells HAL executives that he is not confident of HAL. A very concerning exchange over delayed Tejas Mk1A jets. Hope something constructive comes out of these events. High time for entry of private players.

https://x.com/ramana_brf/status/1889486309359550699 ---> Which private player will invest for the small orders trickled in by IAF to ensure cost is high? There were three models in the 40 Mk1: IOC, FOC, and trainers. Even the learning curve is not achieved. And he wants maza. Go to the corner store and buy Maaza soft drink.

[Rakesh]

Uttam radar gamechanger; Tejas Mk1A 41st fighter onwards to fly desi systems: Dr BK Das

[Rakesh]

HAL shares recover partially after management assures Tejas jet deliveries soon
https://www.cnbctv18.com/market/stocks/ ... 557229.htm
12 Feb 2025

[suryag]

Ahhhh!!!!! i love this now, when it hits you where it hurts the most you find very innovative ways to solve the problem. Go HAL Go

[RCase]

Is the 40 aircraft in 40 years a myth that is being perpetuated?

From sources:
The IOC contract for the Tejas was signed in 2006, with a completion date of December 2011.
The contract was for 20 aircraft. The IOC was received in December 2013

Per my understanding the clock starts ticking after an order has been placed. Yes, HAL has been lax in delivering on time, but 40/ 40 is incorrect.

[fanne]

Uttam radar gamechanger; Tejas Mk1A 41st fighter onwards to fly desi systems: Dr BK Das

What is concerning in the video is the Irst being developed for mk2 is non imaging. We have not developed or mastered either the vanilla irst or the more advanced imaging type. If starting from scratch, we should have gone for imaging type- more advanced, very hard to fool with flares or other types of counter measures, and not effected by bright sun. We will eventually develop this variant, but our aim from beginning should have been this.

[Khalsa]

Is the 40 aircraft in 40 years a myth that is being perpetuated?

From sources:
The IOC contract for the Tejas was signed in 2006, with a completion date of December 2011.
The contract was for 20 aircraft. The IOC was received in December 2013

Per my understanding the clock starts ticking after an order has been placed. Yes, HAL has been lax in delivering on time, but 40/ 40 is incorrect.

We have lost a lot of BRFites who had the knowledge at the back of their hands.
Suffice to say it is incorrect and also, we (HAL and IAF and the country) agreed to tranche it as well. Tejas has gone from a simple MiG21 4 missile carrier to a mini mirage 2000. So the scope creeep has been relentless under the guise of relevance 4th Generation-ism.

We never set out to make a 4 gen fighter. Tejas was concieved at the tail end of Gen 3++ and as a point interceptor like the Lavi.
We began dreaming and inducing scope creep.

Anyway, the piece of good news out of AI-25 has been some hope on the engine deliver and the Mk2.
so lets go the family of Tejas,...... HAMARA TEJAS !!

[mody]

The IAF chief is correct in his criticism of HAL. This is what I gather from the recorded video:

1). HAL had promised that 11 Tejas MK1A will be ready by now. Even though the engines are available, HAL should have got the airframes and all other systems for 11 aircrafts ready by now.
2). The major systems required for the Tejas MK1A are known to everyone. Re-arranging the LRU's for ease of maintenance, some changing of LRU's to account for obsolesce, AESA radar, EW pod, maybe some weight reduction and a much better weapons package. The weapons package is supposed to include Astra BVR missiles, NGARM, ASRAM and a host of air to ground weapons.
3). The Tejas MK1A is has yet to fire a Astra missile. The missile is ours and ready. There is a delay in deliveries of engines, but the time should have been utilized by HAL to integrate all the weapons by now. The matting of the weapons package with the new radar will take time.

HAL should utilized the time to finish all of these pending things including the weapons integration and the EW pod integration and also getting the supply chain primed and running full steam, so that as the engines arrive, the deliveries to IAF can start in earnest.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/livefist/status/1889922984477073628 ---> @CollinsAero signs agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to establish a Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul (MRO) facility at HAL Accessories complex in Lucknow for electrical power generation systems on LCA Tejas.

[Rakesh]

Ab to pick up ho gaya... The story is likely to run and run.

‘No Confidence’: IAF Chief Scolds HAL
https://www.livefistdefence.com/no-conf ... colds-hal/

VIDEO: https://x.com/mjavinod/status/1889658779840414102 --->

1. Public Private Partnership
2. Embraer example
3. Atmanirbhar and capability convergence
4. Producing out of Yelahanka

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1890049885057265699 ---> HAL is in discussions with AMPL for 130 numbers of Uttam radar for Tejas Mk1A. AMPL (Astra Microwave Products Limited) has ramped up its production facilities to produce up to 36 AESA radars per annum. Astra will also receive the order for 1 number of Uttam AESA for Tejas Mk2 shortly. Picture credits - @Defencematrix1

[RCase]

The IAF chief is correct in his criticism of HAL. This is what I gather from the recorded video:

1). HAL had promised that 11 Tejas MK1A will be ready by now. Even though the engines are available, HAL should have got the airframes and all other systems for 11 aircrafts ready by now.
2). The major systems required for the Tejas MK1A are known to everyone. Re-arranging the LRU's for ease of maintenance, some changing of LRU's to account for obsolesce, AESA radar, EW pod, maybe some weight reduction and a much better weapons package. The weapons package is supposed to include Astra BVR missiles, NGARM, ASRAM and a host of air to ground weapons.
3). The Tejas MK1A is has yet to fire a Astra missile. The missile is ours and ready. There is a delay in deliveries of engines, but the time should have been utilized by HAL to integrate all the weapons by now. The matting of the weapons package with the new radar will take time.

HAL should utilized the time to finish all of these pending things including the weapons integration and the EW pod integration and also getting the supply chain primed and running full steam, so that as the engines arrive, the deliveries to IAF can start in earnest.

So let me get this straight. The 11 aircrafts that were supposed to be 'ready' by Aero India 25 were not ready. OK.
Why was the IAF waking up this late? Why were they not involved with monitoring the progress throughout? There should have been a timeline for 11 airframes. If the timelines were slipping, why did they not raise the red flag earlier on with the slippage in delivery of each airframe? IAF has visibility to what is being produced on the manufacturing line at HAL. The IAF chief's feet should have been held to the fire about his organization's lack of taking responsibility.

The IAF needs overhaul (HAL too needs a kick up it's butt). Their planning and risk management is less than desirable. It's not just with the Tejas. The C-17 is a similar story. Endless MxxA competitions spending multiple years with no outcome. When they knew that the fleet strength was depleting, and they were waiting for Tejas, what was their Plan B. Any of the choices of import will still take time. They chose GE engines and the potential for US whims and fancies. Why did they not have a second source for such a critical piece as the engine?

I am not sure if they have the competent technical folks who can do strategic planning, futuristic warfare needs, redundancy planning, project management etc. These are skills that are better found in civilian environments that don't come from the NDA route.

[RCase]

Ab to pick up ho gaya... The story is likely to run and run.

‘No Confidence’: IAF Chief Scolds HAL
https://www.livefistdefence.com/no-conf ... colds-hal/

VIDEO: https://x.com/mjavinod/status/1889658779840414102 --->

If the HAL CMD had a spine, he should have asked the IAF Chief to first get out of the HAL built plane and then he can bad mouth HAL as much as he pleased on the ground.

(On a personal note, the CEO of a company who was our customer was thinking he could keep making unreasonable demands and we would keep bending over backwards. We jolted his happiness when in the midst of the meeting we told him we don't want him as a customer anymore. The guy almost fell off his chair).

[Aditya_V]

That would be stupid, its better to let go, GOI can quietly take care of this, real enemies are Pakis and Chinese.

It all be depends on leverage and getting things done, personal experiences and situations are different.

[bala]

Ab to pick up ho gaya... The story is likely to run and run.

‘No Confidence’: IAF Chief Scolds HAL
https://www.livefistdefence.com/no-conf ... colds-hal/

Tarmak interviews Dr. D. K. Sunil of HAL.

My comments: I wish PM modi ji provides a 10 x budget for HAL on all R&D projects. HAL needs to get all the support for building newer and newer things. It requires more test facilities - get the babus to work with HAL instead of their lucha buddhi of nickle and diming everything. Provide higher pay scale/incentives for real good work.

Topics Covered:

• HTT-40 - 10 in Bengaluru and 60 in Nasik; 37 later to be added by IAF. Has voice activated commands for pilots (taken from the Hawk).
• Yashas - Has glass cockpit; IAF is taking some on lease wherein they will test the aircraft.
• IMRH - SAFHAL engine 50:50 HAL:SAFRAN; prototype in 3 yrs; 6 yrs for deployment in numbers.
• ALH - 15 being tested by IAF; IA.
• CATS - Fully backed by IAF; CATS Hunter is still under development; IA is involved. See: youtube.com/watch?v=2MgDacegQ5Q on display
• Tejas - Three assembly lines - 2 in Bengaluru and 1 in Nasik; lots of private sector involvement; production number is going to be 30 by year 2027; engine issue is being sorted; GE has issues with their suppliers.

HAL has 30% ownership by public. They reduced their headcount from 35,000 to 23,000. The general perception of delays with anything govt is past issues. Today HAL is primed to operate better according to Dr Sunil. HAL has undergone so many changes, product changes and much more - all these things are swept under the rug. So many products are being produced by HAL. As Captain of HAL, Dr DK Sunil is calmly emphasizing agility in HAL, cutting through bureaucratic systems and making things efficient. Great Leadership!

Criticisms make us stronger; allows us to introspect & fix issues; will make HAL agile.

[prashantsharma]

Is he the HAL CMD who, without an iota of shame or.embarassment, told the press, when some delivery deadline was missed, that it was because there was some lack of communication between depts within HAL. Or was it his predecessor? What the F was he doing was their boss?
Shows the level ot mgmt maturity in HAL that they think that these kinds of things are reasonable reasons to give to the nation to justify delays in a critical project like Tejas.

[bala]

We are in a democracy and things don't work in clockwork precision. Blaming HAL is a useless thing, since they are the ones producing actual working products. Blame the babus who need to provide proper governance (they wrote a competitive exam, right) for the nation, they need to run pillar to post to ensure all things are properly funded, all issues are ironed out, inform the mantriji of snags and in general hold program mgmt tightly in their fist. Instead they are of to more foreign jaunts, increasing their belly size, visiting kith & kin in foreign shores and hiding behind process bs. What exactly has the IAF done other than call Tejas the 3 legged cheetah and shoving last minute brochure claims of the west down the throat of HAL. Has IAF admitted to their own mistakes (which are many). For the amount of products that HAL is involved in, I am quite amazed how things have turned out so far. We need to praise HAL and support its effort. They are humble and willing to correct things, not flawless and not bragging. Please ease of on the criticism of HAL.

Every videshi program is filled with flaws and delays including those in US and Cheenland. Recently in Cheenland during an exercise half the equipment did not work and had to be towed. The F-35 was beset with so many snags, some laughable junk. India is on a steep learning curve and it is not copying anybody, instead creating its own IP in fits and starts. We need Modi ji and finance dept to increase the R&D budget to 10 x the current amounts, a simple formula.

[prashantsharma]

Scrutiny and criticism of all parties involved who you list - babus, IAF, and HAL has to be even greater

[prashantsharma]

And funding too needs to be increased

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1891363181450162517 ---> Martin-Baker will open new facility in 2025 in Bengaluru to maintain & manufacture ejection seats for IAF:

- Will help address export opportunities for ejection seats
- MB has delivered 40% of the 108 IN16G seats for 83 Tejas Mk1A
- 51 delivered for Mk1

Martin-Baker to build, maintain ejection seats in new Bengaluru facility
https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 26.article
16 Feb 2025

[srai]

^^^

Interesting… Around 30% extra reserve ejection seats per airframe

[AkshaySG]

^^^

Interesting… Around 30% extra reserve ejection seats per airframe

83 airframes consist of 10 twin seaters so essentially 93 " in use " ejection seats + 15 reserve

[maitya]

Arihant_Ray on X: Astra BVR aam will be test fired from Tejas mk1A within the next 15 days

[Rakesh]

New Uttam Radar for Tejas Mk1A & M2 | Details and Future

[Rakesh]

Arihant_Ray on X: Astra BVR aam will be test fired from Tejas mk1A within the next 15 days

Below is a CGI simulation from the legendary Kuntal Biswas. When the real video comes out, it will not look as good as this. So enjoy. The video is 1:30 minutes long, but the firing occurs at 0:55 in the video.

VIDEO: https://x.com/Kuntal__biswas/status/1892454001955733802 ---> Watch historic test launch of Astra BVR missile from India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas Mk-1A.

[ernest]

Kuntal so good at this that I legit thought it was real video. I believe HAL has given him some contracts. If not, they should hire him already

[maitya]

Another Committee ...
Defence ministry forms high-level panel to boost indigenous light fighter jet production
Betw, this committee will ensure >20/year F404 delivery-rate from GE, is it? If not, what does all these talk of boosting production rate etc, mean?

Isn't the current installed production capacity (of 24/year), not over and above GE's peak delivery-rate?

Maybe, they are thinking of converting one of the 8/annum Mk1A production line with HAL to that of a production-line of MK2, in lieu of setting up a similar capacity production line (of 8/annum) of Mk1A with pvt sector!!
That way later batches of Mk1As and MK2s can have a parallel production run.

[ashishvikas]

Another Committee ...
Defence ministry forms high-level panel to boost indigenous light fighter jet production
Betw, this committee will ensure >20/year F404 delivery-rate from GE, is it? If not, what does all these talk of boosting production rate etc, mean?

Isn't the current installed production capacity (of 24/year), not over and above GE's peak delivery-rate?

Maybe, they are thinking of converting one of the 8/annum Mk1A production line with HAL to that of a production-line of MK2, in lieu of setting up a similar capacity production line (of 8/annum) of Mk1A with pvt sector!!
That way later batches of Mk1As and MK2s can have a parallel production run.

Synopsis
The defence ministry has formed a committee led by Defence Secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh to enhance production of indigenous LCA jets and increase private sector involvement. Currently, HAL manufactures the jets, but delays have occurred due to supply issues. Private companies may be involved in setting up new production lines to fulfill a potential order for 97 additional jets.

[ashishvikas]

After IAF Chief’s Meltdown, MoD To Fasttrack Tejas

https://www.livefistdefence.com/after-i ... ack-tejas/

Two weeks after a public rebuke of HAL by the Indian Air Force chief that went viral both online as well as in India’s security establishment, the Ministry of Defence has reportedly set up a top-level committee to rapidly recommend a formula by which deliveries of 83 Tejas Mk1A fighters can be speeded up, streamlined. The focus of this formula is expected to be getting HAL to yield some of its workshare to private sector companies that currently supply HAL with assembled fuselage parts of the Tejas airframe, but could potentially be the operators of a full separate production line going forward.

HAL Chairman and Managing Director D.K. Sunil said in a recent interview that he was targeting a production rate of 30 per year by 2027, something he hoped to achieved by using as much private sector capacity as possible. The MoD Committee will be formalising this approach and likely providing a timebound action plan on how to execute. As things stand, a handful of private sector companies already build fuselage assemblies for HAL, including VEM Technologies, L&T, Tata and Dynamatics. It is likely that one of these companies will get to operate a full separate Tejas Mk1A production line — a historic first in the country.

[ernest]

As if pvt sector is a magic pill to solve production issues that lie mostly with engine and other subsystem supply chain. Pvt sector has not bitten the bullet on past offers to set up lines for indigenous fighter aircraft, and they won't be lining up now

[maitya]

I fervently hope and pray, this so-called committee recommends that,
1) for the next 97 Mk1A order, the F404-IN-20s are Lic Mfg indigenously*, preferably with a better ToAsT arrangement than what is on the table for the currently-under-negotiation F414 ToAsT deal

2) immediately get GE to deliver, say 20, F404-GE-102 from South Korea - which will help tide over the interim delivery bottlenecks of the initial Mk1A tranches
(these Mk1As can be later retrofitted with IN-20 versions, when their delivery stabilizes to ~20-24/year)

3) and preferably, if pt 1 is indeed being recommended, then the negotiating team needs to really push hard for an indigenous-alternate-part-replacement related waiver (wrt warranty voiding clauses)

But given the track record of such chai-biskoot committees in the past, there's a 0-chance of any of these getting recommended.

*The Assembly lines for F414 and F404 will have lots of commonality - sufficient capability exist in our current indigenous TF ecosystem, to match part-by-part of these F404 TFs, given sufficient order-volume of course.

[Brad Goodman]

Dumb question: Who is responsible for integration of Astra on MK1A? DRDO, ADA or HAL? What exactly is holding this up? Also we talking of Astra MK1 or MK2?

[ernest]

Mk1A is HAL's project. So, it should be HAL that is responsible for the integration.

What exactly is holding this up, based on my guess would be lack of enough airframes for testing. Saurav and Sriram have mentioned this in one of DDR's indigenization appreciation hour episodes. Every agency/company involved has to wait for time on limited number of airframes to test and certify their products. On Astra, I am not worried since it has already been fired from Tejas Mk1

Should be Astra Mk1. Astra Mk2 will find its way soon on Tejas, once the missile enters production. Right now, only aircraft seen with Astra Mk2 are Su-30 in trials, and Mig-29K in static display.

[ritesh]

*The Assembly lines for F414 and F404 will have lots of commonality - sufficient capability exist in our current indigenous TF ecosystem, to match part-by-part of these F404 TFs, given sufficient order-volume of course.

A noob question. Why differentiate between these two variants? HAL just need to double down on whichever one that it can get it hands on and start churning out the jets fast.

[fanne]

MY 2 cents on prvt sector participation on mk1a. My guess is there are many parts that are affected by supply chain issues,the most famous being the engine. Now any of these parts can stop the plane from flying (just to illustrate, if you do not have tires, and have everything else, still the plane will not fly). The private sector is being roped in to indigenize almost everything where we can be shadow sanctioned or be effected by a foreign OEM supply chain issue. It does mean starting from raw material stage.This push, I believe is for tha. The same tech, or next generation of that tech is going to go in some 600 fighters that India will make in coming decades. You add UCAV, drones, helis, transport planes, there exist a solid use case to spend money an indigenize all of it still be very profitable. If you add export orders to it, we would be stupid, not to spend these extra money upfront. Where will the money, expertise, efficiency etc come from - private sector.
The other explanation could be that since the SPV approach for AMCA failed (perhaps the volume was not sufficient or too much in future to make it viable), govt is inducing these private players with pie in MK1A, MK2,TEDBF, basically engaging them now, and these will eventually make AMCA.

One of the above 2 reasons.

[srai]

^^^

With 180 Mk1A, India has an opportunity to establish a 4th & 5th final integration assembly lines (4 aircraft/year) with two private entities together with 3 HAL assembly lines (8+8+8).

Plus, increase workshare of full sub-assemblies of fuselage (front, mid and rear), wings and tails. That is at least 5 Tier-1 involved with their own partial assembly lines.

That would prep enough of these private entities for Mk2 and AMCA production between 2030s-40s. Orders need to be placed in bulk … not the current piecemeal approach (only room for one “public” aerospace company).

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1893562706957148244 ---> LCA industry ecosystem in India.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1891363181450162517 ---> Martin-Baker will open new facility in 2025 in Bengaluru to maintain & manufacture ejection seats for IAF:

- Will help address export opportunities for ejection seats
- MB has delivered 40% of the 108 IN16G seats for 83 Tejas Mk1A
- 51 delivered for Mk1

Martin-Baker to build, maintain ejection seats in new Bengaluru facility
https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 26.article
16 Feb 2025

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1893563166766047353 ---> So HAL is in talks with Martin-Baker to start their plant in India. Not that easy to get the technology as they have years and years of technology and research gained. Slide seems to indicate HAL's focus is on testing & qualification of ejection seats. Hope IN16 and Mk18 are made in India.