Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[ernest]

Agree, Williams ji. No more of this imports for geopolitical benefits and ToT drama. We have to put our resources towards local programs

[Kanoji]

It looks like we have not learned the lessons from the cryogenic engine or the earlier Cray supercomputer episodes. Our response to the Cray episode was the development of Param series of supercomputers - which IMHO was a good response.

[maitya]

Upping this thread ...
I continue to get asked such questions (on X), but given the limitations of X, will try and reply it here:

From X - @shreedharsingh9: Sir ,What is the thermal resistance of LZ -8YSZ compared to pure 8YSZ ??

From X - @sahilsinghop: What will be the TET of Kaveri if we use LZ - 8YSZ instead of 8YSZ?

First of all, there are multi-dimensional aspects involved wrt these, and thus performing some arithmetic calc to arrive at a so-and-so figure, doesn't work. But before I get into it, pls refer to my 6-series posts on TBC first - without that preamble, you may find it difficult to appreciate the following analysis.

First of all let's do some simple arithmetic, assuming conservative figures: 1400 deg C (1450deg C is max LZ ambient-temp ability) + 300-350 deg C (film cooling effectiveness) = a whopping 1700-1750 deg C TeT capability.

However if you look closely, there are several fallacies involved:
Assuming, the film cooling effectiveness work flawlessly (most probably it won't, but let's assume nevertheless, for a forum discussion such as this), the max TBC cooling effectiveness of say ~150deg C, would mean the substrate temp levels of ~1250 deg C (1400-150 deg C).
The turbine blade will fail almost immediately (life of say 1-2 hrs max), as 1050 deg C is the Kaveri's DS superalloys max raw-temp capability.
(Note: Substituting by a 2nd Gen SC Superalloy won't help much, as well)

So, these theoretical figures of max temp ability of the TBC (LZ), will not help much until and unless the raw metal temp capability of 1250deg C (by 1400-150) levels are involved - however, max that a 4th Gen SC Ni-Superalloy manages today, is around 1120-1140deg C.

In other words, calculating backwards, if the current capability of max raw-metal temp of a 4th Gen SC Superalloy, is at 1110deg C (say), then with a 150 deg C TBC effectiveness, the max blade surface temp capability we are looking at is 1260deg C.
Which in turn means, assuming 300-350deg C (film cooling effectiveness), a TeT level of ~1560deg C.

Now for Kaveri, another similar such arithmetic calc can be, 1050 deg C (Kaveri raw temp capability) + 150 deg C (TBC effectiveness) + 300-350 deg C (film cooling effectiveness) = 1500 - 1550 deg C TeT capability.

But here 1050deg C + 150deg C = 1200deg C - which is less than 1250deg C, which is the max 8YSZ ambient-temp ability.

So, inference is, for 1050deg C raw-metal-temp capable blades, 8YSZ TBC provides the optimal solution, and max TeT levels that you can aspire for 1500-1550deg C levels, assuming all other relevant technologies are optimally (and flawlessly) implemented (seldom that happens though).

Now what this above analysis, doesn't consider are many other tech hurdles, a few being:
LZ, with poor strain-tolerance levels, when considered as the surface coat, is not suited for handling high centrifugal forces of a high rpm turbine blade - which means the TBC itself will most probably crack and spall away, much before the ambient temp reaches anywhere near 1400deg C (or even 1200deg C) levels.

Sure, it can be "strengthened", by adding an "intermediate" coat of 7YSZ (note deliberately not used 8 YSZ, that for some other day), but then again one need to ensure the thickness of the LZ top-coat is carefully designed so that heat conducted thru it ensures the intermediate coat experiences < 1250deg C temp levels.
A very tall order, until and unless, it involves top-coat thicker coating levels - but then again, thicker the coating, lesser is the strain tolerance and is thus more prone to spallation and failure.

No easy choices, I guess ...

Now let me make pick your brains, by asking the following (rhetorical) questions:
1) Why is this fixation wrt LZ-YSZ bilayer TBC for turbine blades, what about it's usage wrt NGVs or Combustor Liners?
2) For Turbine blade TBC application, what is this fixation wrt LZ-YSZ bilayer TBC - why not, instead, consider CeO2-YSZ coatings instead?
(Hint: Answers are there in the same 6-series posts on TBC)

[Neela]

https://nabhdrishti.in/technology

Our Story
Nabhdrishti Aerospace is what happens when three friends and colleagues with deep domain expertise get together and ask a simple question: Why doesn't India have indigenous gas turbine technology?
Our Co-Founders Rohit, Arjun, and Antanu have combined 50+ years of experience with gas turbines, working at leading organizations in the space such GE, Rolls Royce, DRDO. Aware of India's need to import engines for even the most critical needs especially in aviation and defense, they decided to leverage their expertise.

They found believers very early on, in form of investors, government grants, advisors, and team members.

Together, we're on a mission to build critical technology that helps India move toward self-reliance.

[chetak]

Agree, Williams ji. No more of this imports for geopolitical benefits and ToT drama. We have to put our resources towards local programs

ernest ji,


Not to rain on anyone's parade but we are in this very position that we find ourselves in today because of geopolitics

neverwho, in his foolishly single minded pursuit of the status of a world renowned "statesman", fumbled the ball on numerous occasions, by demonstrating his slavish loyalty to the britshits who set him up in the PM's gaddi, and expected him to deliver, realized rather late in the game that he had been not only blind sided but also stabbed in the back.

After he had been used to internationalize and make a mess of cashmere at the UN, by being led up the garden path by his "pal" mountbatten, who undoubtedly had the best of reasons to publicly gut this entitled despoiler and desi, cut price d0n ju@n.

The amrikis also laid a trap and enticed him into giving away the unheard of concessions he bestowed so wantonly, not to mention needlessly, upon the pakis

his other pal, the snake in the grass moussy tung, rear ended him in 1962 and his gora pals never came to help.

youanus in beediland today is also geopolitics, as is trumpwa and his tariffs.

The congis habituated us to being a colony once again. It will take some very harsh efforts to change this commonly held gora perception, but one is very glad that powerful desi people now are trying hard to do so

[ernest]

Agree with what you said. But let's focus on Aero engine in this thread, as we risking veering OT. Can take it in geopolitics thread if you wish to. I do not have much to add beyond what you said

[chetak]

Agree with what you said. But let's focus on Aero engine in this thread, as we risking veering OT. Can take it in geopolitics thread if you wish to. I do not have much to add beyond what you said

ernst ji,

The focus is only on aero engines.

Just laying out the background as to why we are being shafted.

The pakis got their nuke program without the world making too much of a noise about it and that was geopolitics, specifically to to hobble India

as is the denial of the tech for military jet engine, again, specifically to to hobble India

It's all about control, dominance, and markets, which in a nutshell is geopolitics

Do you think that the goras are happy that they have lost the 6900 crore India’s next-gen ATAGS artillery gun market in India, plus the fact they will have another international competitor in this vital space

That's what they greatly fear will happen to them again if India gets or masters on it's own, the tech to make the military jet engine

[ernest]

The focus is only on aero engines.

Just laying out the background as to why we are being shafted.

It's all about control, dominance, and markets, which in a nutshell is geopolitics

Do you think that the goras are happy that they have lost the 6900 crore India’s next-gen ATAGS artillery gun market in India, plus the fact they will have another international competitor in this vital space

That's what they greatly fear will happen to them again if India gets or masters on it's own, the tech to make the military jet engine

Got the point, Chetak ji. Agree with the geopolitics of tech denial. Propulsion (an maybe large scale semiconductor chips production) is the last critical gap left in our MIC. Once we cover this, our MIC will be unstoppable. Understandable that other powers are going to try to slow it down, prevent us from getting there by all means.

[uddu]

Kaveri Engine Tejas: Indian Air Force to support new Kaveri Enginer for Tejas? All we know so far
https://www.etnownews.com/news/kaveri-e ... -151318587

Kaveri Engine Tejas: As India is aiming towards self-reliance, Indian Air Force (IAF) is poised to support an updated version of Kaveri engine program that is aimed at powering the Tejas Mk1A. The Tejas Mk1A, that relies on the GE F404-IN20, delivers 54 kN dry thrust and 84 kN with afterburner (wet thrust). With 83 jets contracted in 2021 and 97 more approved in 2024, the IAF’s commitment to 220 Mk1As is solid.

Led by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), this program seeks to replace the General Electric (GE) F404 engines currently propelling the light combat aircraft.

Each jet requires three engines throughout its life—one at induction and one mid-life replacement—plus spares, bringing the total to around 700.
At $8-10 million per F404 (2023 costs), that's a $5-7 billion bill over four decades, excluding maintenance and geopolitical hazards associated with U.S. supply chains, according to the idrw.org analysis.

GTRE's immediate goal focuses on the Kaveri Engine Derivative (KDE) with an afterburner module, aiming for a wet thrust of 73-74 kN, which matches the French M88-2 (75 kN) that powers the Rafale.
KDE, scheduled for demonstration in late 2025, builds on Kaveri's core, which was developed following Safran's 2014-2018 consultation under a €150 million deal. That partnership addressed compressor inefficiencies and afterburner instability, resulting in nine prototypes evaluated for 3,200 hours. The KDE intends to demonstrate this mature technology, providing a foundation for future advancements.

[pravula]

No, IAF leadership has nothing to gain with supporting Kaveri. There is no upside to it. Even if everything works perfectly, they will be rewarded on par with someone who was all-in for GE 404

[uddu]

Things do change as progress in technology happens. Even the naysayers who are not corrupt but want the best will bet for Kaveri, once it meets the requirement specifications. Then there will be visionaries who understand the need for self reliance in engines who will continue to back it. The tide will turn at some point in time.

[pravula]

I hope you realize that you are asking people to gamble with their career, with no upside. Who in their right mind will?

[uddu]

Gambling part is done. Kaveri is there. Now its variants will come. There is no going back on it. Its the same state as Prithvi-1 test successful. Obviously the road ahead for Prithvi-II, III and even Agni-V is not visible to us as of now. But it will happen eventually. Technology and the ecosystem for engine manufacturing has matured. Testing facility will follow. Even private players making their own engines, however small is a good sign of progress nation has achieved. What we are seeing is a initial glimpse of the things that will come. For that a steady govt that supports these initiative is very much essential. Atleast that give a level playing field. If the govt decides, this progress can be speeded up as well. Also a majority of the men and women in the Armed Forces are there not just their for their career. Some are leaving huge opportunities in the pvt sector and going to join the armed forces for love for their motherland. The corrupt as like in any sector will be there. They will have an opportunity only when the Govt from top down is corrupt and will be promoted in such a setup. Else there is huge opportunity for the ones who perform. Things are not as Rosy as one would expect, its not as bad either.

[pravula]

Gambling part is done. Kaveri is there. Now its variants will come.

I disagree. What you are referring to is technical solve. Even a marine version, that requires no A/B has been teased for 10+ years now...

Technology and the ecosystem for engine manufacturing has matured.

Nope. Not even one engine has been produced in any manufacturing line. Its all been lab prototypes.

WRT private players, I agree that they have been making progress. So has Kalyani on ATGS....

[uddu]

It will happen. The progress indeed is very slow. There is reason for people who is watching these for long time to get frustrated. The problems that hindered it during old days with respect to technology has been resolved. Many private players are indeed capable of supplying parts. Some are making components for foreign companies as well. Many Niche technology in each segment will follow as time progresses. Not just within DRDO but also by private players. Both components and manufacturing processes. Have no doubt that Kaveri and its variants will come and will fly in Tejas and in various fighters that will follow.
By the way Kalyani ATAGS is ordered right.

[A Deshmukh]

Kaveri Engine Tejas: Indian Air Force to support new Kaveri Enginer for Tejas? All we know so far
https://www.etnownews.com/news/kaveri-e ... -151318587

New engine means new aircraft and all the associated testing and certifications.
Optimistically, we are looking at 5 years of Kaveri development + 2 yrs for certification.
Linking Kaveri to Tejas is prone to risks and frustrations and time delays and eventual more imports of 404s.

In my opinion,
Kaveri and Tejas should remain de-linked.
MoD should negotiate 404 manufacturing in India along the lines of 414.
Give an assurance of minimum 350 engines.

In parallel continue funding Kaveri K-10 or K2 or n-versions as required.
Build new UCAVs designed around the established capabilities of K-n.
If the thrust achieved is lesser, then build a smaller aircraft.
Put that K-n in production first with 100 UCAVs.

If K-n achieves good thrust and within a few years, then order the remaining Tejas versions Mk1B or Mk1K with K-n engines
If K-n gets delayed, we can always order more Mk1A with more 404 engines.

This will mean piecemeal order of Tejas (how many Mk1A and how many Mk1K?), but we will have a production / assembly line of 404s in place to avoid supply chain disruption or geopolitical changes (good chance of Dems come back to power in 4 yrs?).

[uddu]

There is no linking. What is being planned is the replacement of F-404. Even F-414 will come. But will be replaced with Kaveri variants.

[uddu]

https://idrw.org/lt-proposes-indigenous ... over-cost/
shreedhar singh
@shreedharsingh9
DRDO has assembled and validated the bi-layer YSZ-LZ coated flaps in an aero-engine

Atmanirbharta Bhakt
@MacaulaysMonkey
Gemini provided a pretty good description.
https://x.com/MacaulaysMonkey/status/19 ... 2567146606

[maitya]

https://idrw.org/lt-proposes-indigenous ... over-cost/
shreedhar singh
@shreedharsingh9
DRDO has assembled and validated the bi-layer YSZ-LZ coated flaps in an aero-engine

Atmanirbharta Bhakt
@MacaulaysMonkey
Gemini provided a pretty good description.
https://x.com/MacaulaysMonkey/status/19 ... 2567146606

LZ coats, in practical applications, will not survive beyond 1450deg C ... something called CMAS attack, refer to my TBC series of posts - part 4 (of that series) delves into this aspect.

Also there are various types of YSZ like - PSZ and FSZ etc. For example, the so-called advantages of LZ, is possble via FSZ as well.
In fact, LZ coats are not suitable for high-rm rotor surfaces etc ... all details in that post series.

[uddu]

Thank you for pointing out the detailed writing. Will go through it taking time and try to understand as much as I can. Appreciate your effort in doing so.

[maitya]

From X - @shreedharsingh9:

Jet Engine parts made from CMC materials

[mody]

Last year there was close to half billion each invested in RD-33 and AL-31 program. The details are missing, with some snippets coming out. We are making 240 AL 31F engines and x amount of rd-33. Are these deals where we replace more parts indigenously? Can we have one more contract where we get the right to modify the engine (a la ws-10 and another for rd-33). Pay the amount (chinese successfully negotiated them 20 years ago) and go that route. It is not the only route. Effectively we will have three programs, two of these overlapping and perhaps complementing each other. RD-33/AL 31 engines gradually substituted with superalloys developed for Kaveri. The engine gets tested in Mig 29/SU30MKI after being thoroughly tested on the ground. You replace one part at a time. The investment overlap as far as superalloys and machining is there with Kaveri. Then you have Kaveri engine, whose superalloys are getting tested and used in RD-33/AL-31, while Kaveri goes through its own trial and tribulation. The third is the F414/SAFRAN/RR route, whoever gives us the tech. I will not count Lic manufacturing of f414 for Tejas mk2 in the same league, it is no different than AL31 lic manufacturing deal we got 2 decades back, only that it is few generation ahead of the AL31 tech, but ultimately it does not provide us either the flexibility or the ToT to build and export our own engines.

The Russian's put paid to all these efforts. There was an effort going on to not just replace a lot of the Russian parts in the Al-31 engine, but also improve the performance and thrust of the engine. The Russians protested against this and informed that the 'warranty' on the engines would be void, if HAL/GTRE went ahead with unsanctioned changes in the engine. We can perhaps make the entire engine inhouse, excluding the thrust vectoring nozzles. While making the engines inhouse, we can also increase the thrust rating and improve the MTBO and total life as well. However, with the Russians refusing to let go of their cash cow, we are stuck.

See the report from December 2024 below.
https://defence.in/threads/russia-resis ... hts.12024/

The Russians then pitched the project 177s engines to India at the aero India. They knew that the Al-41S engines were also to going to cut it. Now they have offered the most modern version of the Al-41S engines.

[chetak]

Last year there was close to half billion each invested in RD-33 and AL-31 program. The details are missing, with some snippets coming out. We are making 240 AL 31F engines and x amount of rd-33. Are these deals where we replace more parts indigenously? Can we have one more contract where we get the right to modify the engine (a la ws-10 and another for rd-33). Pay the amount (chinese successfully negotiated them 20 years ago) and go that route. It is not the only route. Effectively we will have three programs, two of these overlapping and perhaps complementing each other. RD-33/AL 31 engines gradually substituted with superalloys developed for Kaveri. The engine gets tested in Mig 29/SU30MKI after being thoroughly tested on the ground. You replace one part at a time. The investment overlap as far as superalloys and machining is there with Kaveri. Then you have Kaveri engine, whose superalloys are getting tested and used in RD-33/AL-31, while Kaveri goes through its own trial and tribulation. The third is the F414/SAFRAN/RR route, whoever gives us the tech. I will not count Lic manufacturing of f414 for Tejas mk2 in the same league, it is no different than AL31 lic manufacturing deal we got 2 decades back, only that it is few generation ahead of the AL31 tech, but ultimately it does not provide us either the flexibility or the ToT to build and export our own engines.

The Russian's put paid to all these efforts. There was an effort going on to not just replace a lot of the Russian parts in the Al-31 engine, but also improve the performance and thrust of the engine. The Russians protested against this and informed that the 'warranty' on the engines would be void, if HAL/GTRE went ahead with unsanctioned changes in the engine. We can perhaps make the entire engine inhouse, excluding the thrust vectoring nozzles. While making the engines inhouse, we can also increase the thrust rating and improve the MTBO and total life as well. However, with the Russians refusing to let go of their cash cow, we are stuck.

See the report from December 2024 below.
https://defence.in/threads/russia-resis ... hts.12024/

The Russians then pitched the project 177s engines to India at the aero India. They knew that the Al-41S engines were also to going to cut it. Now they have offered the most modern version of the Al-41S engines.

mody ji,


why did we not just go ahead and modify a set of 5-6 engines as a private venture and do it on the quiet (the options include some non russki engines as well)

why do idiotic things like wanting to "improve" the performance of the russian design and implement fleet wide changes. It's like waving a red flag at an already enraged bull

which moron thought up this grand plan and then, with band baaja, went to the russkis and spilled the beans

back home, the russkis still send their people on longish vacations to the gulag

and, BTW, there is such a thing as being "needlessly honest" or even "too honest". Secrecy and circumspection are inherent conditions in the conduct of geopolitics

great nations do not work or behave like this, especially when their supreme national interests are involved. we should learn to seize opportunities when they present themselves without being overly moralistic or squeamish

The jet engine tech is one of the big security concerns for India and is of the utmost interest to further our national interests, the only other option is very long term ग़ुलामी, and our future will be as gloomy as our past was ......





how did ISRO manage to build their cryogenic engine ........

ISRO worked with the Soviet Union’s Glavkosmos space agency in 1990. India sent eight scientists to Moscow to work with Soviet scientists. They worked there for 15 months, but did not have access to everything.

“The Russians were very secretive about everything, even though they had signed the technology transfer agreement. Discussions were limited, and the Indian scientists were never allowed to walk the labs freely; they needed clearance to move around the lab,”

Then, 15 months after the deal was signed, the US raised objections citing a violation of the international Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). The West feared that cryogenic technology could be used by India to develop intercontinental ballistic missiles, which is rejected by Indian scientists.

Eventually, in 1993, Glavkosmos backed out of the deal and revoked the transfer of cryotechnology agreement. Under a renegotiated deal, Russia decided to provide four fully functional engines and two mock-ups. It also agreed to supply three more cryogenic engines at a cost of $9 million.

We had to get back our people who were already working with the Russian scientists. Then we had to start on our own. They had made some sorts of drawings and designs and they were already working on the engines and fabrication processes with the Russian scientists,”

from little acorns do great oak trees grow.

[bala]

from little acorns do great oak trees grow. how did ISRO manage to build their cryogenic engine ..

Chetak ji, the inspiration for cryogenic engines may have been denial regime. But ISRO worked hard to get to where it is today. On the liquid engine front, thanks to the French and Dr. Nambi Narayanan, India's ISRO managed a state of the art engine. The French initially hired ISRO as contract workers for their engine program and ISRO engineers were involved in debugging issues with their design. Dr. Nambi Narayanan learned about "inducing little instability to achieve overall stability" during his thesis days at Princeton with Professor Luigi Crocco. Applying such techniques, ISRO engineers were able to solve issues for the French. In return the French agreed to test the ISRO rocket version of their design (debugged and corrected by ISRO). Nowadays, ISRO is successful with liquid and now methane gas engines. Even pulse engines are making headway at ISRO. Note that NASA has SERT-1, SERT-II engines based on mercury (as described in Vimanas of ancient India).

[vera_k]

why did we not just go ahead and modify a set of 5-6 engines as a private venture and do it on the quiet (the options include some non russki engines as well)

One flaw I see with this approach is that the lack of local testing facilities means that Russia has deep insight into the state of any Indian engine program and can easily detect any such modifications under way. No way to do it "on the quiet".

[bala]

There was an effort going on to not just replace a lot of the Russian parts in the Al-31 engine, but also improve the performance and thrust of the engine. The Russians protested against this and informed that the 'warranty' on the engines would be void, if HAL/GTRE went ahead with unsanctioned changes in the engine.

Besides voiding contract with the Russians, it would have have caused all kinds of issues with Russia.

I think a sensible thing for India would have been to work on lower rated engine first instead of Kaveri. The Hot section of the turbine is generally safeguarded by the vendors and nothing is given in TOT in these areas. India had to first master the hot section with a lower rated engine and based on the experience graduated to higher rated engine. We took a shortcut which was too much to learn in one go. The best guys who know about aircraft engines is the engine division of HAL and I don't know to what extent GTRE involved them.

[fanne]

That explains GOI loud pronouncement that the indigenous content was increased to 62% or so. Again my best guess is that contractually we were allowed 62% (or whatever that % was, if I recall 62% it was) and HAL in its infinite wisdom was doing much lower % than that. The govt put in .5 billion for both rd33 and al31 f to push the indigenous content to highest number contractually allowed.

I would also like to develop engine on the side with Indian parts (secretly) and at least validate our metullargy (with Kaveri still having design issues, first the design had to be validated then only you can fly it long enough to verify the material). This also will be our insurance against Russia unable to supply (due to defeat or limited resources needed for its own aiforce) or unwilling (say because of dependence on china, china forcing this). If we have rd33 and al31 ready to go with our parts, we will be better served during tough times or atleast verified our material science

[fanne]

https://t.me/DGPIndia/49369

Summary - Kavri has been certified in Russia and IAF has agreed for integration with LCA. Will wait for other news mediums to report it.

[chetak]

why did we not just go ahead and modify a set of 5-6 engines as a private venture and do it on the quiet (the options include some non russki engines as well)

One flaw I see with this approach is that the lack of local testing facilities means that Russia has deep insight into the state of any Indian engine program and can easily detect any such modifications under way. No way to do it "on the quiet".

build the engines, vera boss.

"can't see the forest for the trees" is a easy cop out

build on the quiet and then bench test it first. So many BRDs have the facilities

I know one facility where engines of the RR trent size can be bench tested

then we can look for options. The russkis help out with flight tests. That stage is quite some distance away

Even getting to this stage will instill confidence in the teams.

[fanne]

after testing on grund (for say safety), we have 80 Mig 29 and 260 SU30MKI to test them from, luckily both dual engine.

[chetak]

from little acorns do great oak trees grow. how did ISRO manage to build their cryogenic engine ..

Chetak ji, the inspiration for cryogenic engines may have been denial regime. But ISRO worked hard to get to where it is today. On the liquid engine front, thanks to the French and Dr. Nambi Narayanan, India's ISRO managed a state of the art engine. The French initially hired ISRO as contract workers for their engine program and ISRO engineers were involved in debugging issues with their design. Dr. Nambi Narayanan learned about "inducing little instability to achieve overall stability" during his thesis days at Princeton with Professor Luigi Crocco. Applying such techniques, ISRO engineers were able to solve issues for the French. In return the French agreed to test the ISRO rocket version of their design (debugged and corrected by ISRO). Nowadays, ISRO is successful with liquid and now methane gas engines. Even pulse engines are making headway at ISRO. Note that NASA has SERT-1, SERT-II engines based on mercury (as described in Vimanas of ancient India).

bala saar,

The how doesn't matter. It's all water under the bridge

What matters is that India is today one among the six nations in the world that is capable of building the cryogenic engine on her own. ISRO is already looking at the more powerful and newer generations of the cryogenic engine that the earlier ISRO engineers pioneered.

The point to be noted is if ISRO/BARC can and did innovate, then why can't or why haven't the others do/done it

ISRO succeeded in spite of the cartelized technology denial regime that they ran into but also successfully overcame the hurdles

If you know some ISRO old timer, get him/her to tell you the Vikas engine story and how the frogs cheated us even there.

I am not going to do so because I don't know which part is classified and which part is not.

In spite of the cartelized technology denial regimes, it is the repeated successes of ISRO and her sisters, and also the BARC and her sisters, that have muddied the jet engine tech waters for us

These two successful "families", ISRO and BARC, have put the fear of Indian gods into these goras

[bala]

https://t.me/DGPIndia/49369

Summary - Kavri has been certified in Russia and IAF has agreed for integration with LCA. Will wait for other news mediums to report it.

Saar today is April 1st - fools day. So take it with stride!

[bala]

The point to be noted is if ISRO/BARC can and did innovate, then why can't or why haven't the others do/done it

One of the key points about ISRO/BARC is that they are pretty autonomous reporting directly to the PM of India. The current mantri of defence is a boondogle in terms of IAS chaps breathing down your neck at every turn. You ask for x and they give you 0.25 x or nothing. You ask for basics things like test facility and they deny you. What is the coordination amongst DMRL and GTRE, two entities that need to be tied together in the effort, it is as much about material science and engine tech. Have the IITs/NITs been pressed into working on specific issues. ISRO/BARC don't have such penny pinching morons in charge. Also leadership in many DRDO labs is not upto the caliber of ISRO/BARC. Many such intangible stuff ruin true R&D work.

[chetak]

The point to be noted is if ISRO/BARC can and did innovate, then why can't or why haven't the others do/done it

One of the key points about ISRO/BARC is that they are pretty autonomous reporting directly to the PM of India. The current mantri of defence is a boondogle in terms of IAS chaps breathing down your neck at every turn. You ask for x and they give you 0.25 x or nothing. You ask for basics things like test facility and they deny you. What is the coordination amongst DMRL and GTRE, two entities that need to be tied together in the effort, it is as much about material science and engine tech. Have the IITs/NITs been pressed into working on specific issues. ISRO/BARC don't have such penny pinching morons in charge. Also leadership in many DRDO labs is not upto the caliber of ISRO/BARC. Many such intangible stuff ruin true R&D work.

Please, bala saar, let's not obfuscate the issue and play down their achievements

It is because they are successful, they get what they ask for. Politicos are impressed with delivery and not rhetoric and they look good by backing successful organisations

It is because they are successful, that ISRO/BARC have international respect, global professional recognition, and a 24 carat gold standard reputation

If others also succeed, they too will get funded and with no questions asked.

ISRO/BARC deliver as expected, if on the odd occasion, they fail, they redouble their efforts and fight their way back into the game. One director of ISRO broke down and wept publicly when ISRO's Vikram Lander of Chandrayaan-2 mission fell silent. That is the level of their commitment. That man is to be admired.

Old jungle saying: No amount of lipstick can ever turn a pig into a graceful swan.

Just using a common phrase onlee. no offence to any entity

BTW, Don't DRDO's missile programs and other successful labs get funds for the asking



These were the guys who pushed out Cmde(IN) Paul Raj out of DRDO due to jealousy


Cmde Paul Raj -- Professor Emeritus, Dept. of Elect. Engineering, Stanford University

Awards

Padma Bhushan (2010)
IEEE Alexander Graham Bell Medal (2011)
Marconi Prize (2014)
National Inventors Hall of Fame (2018)
IET Faraday Medal(2023) Prince Philip Medal Royal Academy of Engineering (2024)


His invention (1992) for exploiting multiple antennas at both ends of a wireless link (MIMO) lies at the heart of the current high speed WiFi and 4G and 5G mobile networks

[vera_k]

"can't see the forest for the trees" is a easy cop out

build on the quiet and then bench test it first. So many BRDs have the facilities

Wasn't this the path followed? Up until when flight testing in Russia showed the engine needed design changes.

[vera_k]

It is because they are successful, they get what they ask for. Politicos are impressed with delivery and not rhetoric and they look good by backing successful organisations

IMO I am encouraged by HAL taking up HLFT-72. Like with ATAGS, the path of building for the world and then adapting to the local market is promising. I am confounded by the choice to build a brand new engine when an earlier engine was available, and figure this was dictated top down without realizing the amount of effort required to get an engine into production.

[chetak]

"can't see the forest for the trees" is a easy cop out

build on the quiet and then bench test it first. So many BRDs have the facilities

Wasn't this the path followed? Up until when flight testing in Russia showed the engine needed design changes.

vera ji,


this establishment is now under new management (at the top). However, the evils of the old practices continue to dog them.

They need a biggish success to exit the background where they have now been exiled to.

The russkis will not fudge test results even if asked, because they may possibly see a market for their own products

flight test bed facilities are exorbitantly expensive and they are huge white elephants that sit on the ground for very long periods of time while consuming huge resources, unless they are owned by an engine designer company in which case, they will fly quite a bit for different programs in the pipeline

For an entity that has just one engine on the drawing boards, it is a wasteful expenditure with little or nil ROI. It cannot even be hired out because these guys have nil experience and expertise in operating such a beast. So the test bed will be instrumented abroad, and maybe use gora technicians for some years before our guys get the hang of things.

All in all, it may just fly for around a 100 or so hours and sit on some tarmac awaiting further design refinements to be made to the once again modified test engine and so on. This will have many iterations that may each take many months to redesign, test and integrate into the test engine

what, if any, changes were made after the russki test bed flights.

All in all, it may be cheap and best to rent such a testbed as and when required, but that's just me

Every test flight has to be instrumented a bit differently because different parameters will be monitored.

Different engines will have a very different fit and SOP of instrumentation. There is no one size fits all

[chetak]

It is because they are successful, they get what they ask for. Politicos are impressed with delivery and not rhetoric and they look good by backing successful organisations

IMO I am encouraged by HAL taking up HLFT-72. Like with ATAGS, the path of building for the world and then adapting to the local market is promising. I am confounded by the choice to build a brand new engine when an earlier engine was available, and figure this was dictated top down without realizing the amount of effort required to get an engine into production.

vera ji,

I have little to no faith in this organization, especially after the ALH fiasco where people actually died.



ALH to be grounded for 3 more months



Apr 02, 2025

A fleet-wide inspection has revealed that some navy and coast guard ALHs are facing the same problem — cracks in the swashplate assembly.


https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 70861.html

[ramana]

Was it feasible to add an afterburner to the Orpheus engine by India?

[fanne]

Not that I am wishing anything, hlft 42 is going nowhere. I sincerely hope lca mk1a 97 new order and mak2 goes some where (sincere wish. Hopefully with a very willing HAL, same passion as they have for hlft-42).

If Hal is so flush with internal fund, I can suggest some projects 1) hasten the development of hlft-25 for jaguar adour replacement. There is no pint making it after jags have retired. Time is now. Good news is that kind of engine has many uses - trainers, small jet transport planes, ucav etc.
2) certify sitara, that niche is without a trainer
3) mta
4) you can also do Tejas based lift.
5) take up tedbf and put that second team, it has been deprioritized by ada in favor of amca and mk2.
6)what stopped them doing a super Shukhi for which they are now going to take 7 years to certify and then a millennium to upgrade 84 planes?
7) upgrade plan for an-32 at your dime
8)make omni based on tedbf in spite of iaf reluctance. I don’t think any more readable or f-35 or su57 are coming. After all we have already made a committee on it. You know the joke about committee - they made a camel when they wanted to make horse.