Indian Naval Aviation

[Rakesh]

I still ask the question ---> How does the US Navy trains its rookie F-35 pilots, as of today?

We will cross the bridge of the next trainer, when it gets here.

[Manish_P]

^ You have covered it, in detail, in an earlier post

Summary IIRC - Basic academic and simulator training course followed by advanced flight training at land based air and navy bases followed by qualification training and evaluation on actual carriers.

[A Deshmukh]

A similar training regime will exist in the Indian Navy and this is where the twin-seater Naval Tejas will play a crucial role. The arrival of the Rafale M, will pave the way for the entry of the Naval Tejas. Unlike the carrier capable MiG-29KUB, the twin-seater Rafale B is not carrier compatible and greenhorn Indian Navy fighter pilots have to experience "real-world" carrier take-offs and landings on some platform, before graduating to the gold plated Rafale M. But nothing ever comes on time in India, so don't expect an order of Naval Tejas anytime soon. In the next decade, you will see INS Vikrant operating a fleet (albeit a small one) of Naval Tejas Mk1s.

We will need Naval Tejas Mk1 (twin seater) as trainer aircraft for carrier landings and takeoff.
Considering the growing size of our economy and willingness to spend 2Lcr on capital acquisition budget in the last FY, I am optimistic that the order will come sooner than later.
TEDBF development project and 5-10 trainer Naval Tejas production order should happen this year.

[Rakesh]

We will need Naval Tejas Mk1 (twin seater) as trainer aircraft for carrier landings and takeoff.
Considering the growing size of our economy and willingness to spend 2Lcr on capital acquisition budget in the last FY, I am optimistic that the order will come sooner than later.
TEDBF development project and 5-10 trainer Naval Tejas production order should happen this year.

Deshmukh Saab, kudos to your optimism. I have lost it, seeing the archaic way we move when it comes to acquisition of local maal. But there are voices in the Navy that agree with you. Please see this article from 2023.

In a weird and twisted way, celebrate the arrival of the Rafale M...because it paves the entry for the Naval Tejas into the Indian Navy. This likely would not have occurred if the F-18SH won the MRCBF contest, as it would come with the twin-seater, carrier capable, F-18F variant.

Indian Navy Considering Small N-LCA Order?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/indian- ... lca-order/
18 April 2023

While the N-LCA is still below performance requirements demanded by the Indian Navy from a fleet fighter, energy in the program has almost certainly helped revive interest in the program to the extent that a proposal to actually order a handful of airframes is being spoken of internally.

Another officer suggests that pushing the N-LCA into the navy would subject the aircraft to the full rigours of naval aviation and pull it out of the possessive embrace with which dedicated test teams may regard them. “It would give the N-LCA a chance to fully stretch its wings in the real world, with the opportunity to train batches of pilots in STOBAR operations, something they currently do abroad,” he says.

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/1910411239479795888 ---> The more I think about it, the more I lament the missed opportunity.

Assuming 75% availability:
* 4 at Vikramaditya,
* 4 at Vikrant,
* 4 at STBF,
* 4 in maintenance.

Same price as 4 Rafale-trainers! Within same time! Invaluable in data/experience creation!

[Rakesh]

^ You have covered it, in detail, in an earlier post

Summary IIRC - Basic academic and simulator training course followed by advanced flight training at land based air and navy bases followed by qualification training and evaluation on actual carriers.

Future US Navy pilots will indeed likely not use a trainer. Boeing already has something called Magic Carpet (Maritime Augmented Guidance with Integrated Controls for Carrier Approach and Recovery Precision Enabling Technologies) for its F-18SHs ---> https://news.usni.org/2016/06/30/navys- ... lding-fall

So the tech has only to go up from here, especially now that AI is making a huge push in every sphere of human life.

In India, we always seem to be holding the short end of the stick when it comes to technological advancements. Thus it will be a while before our naval pilots abandon trainer aircraft altogether.

[Rakesh]

CCS cleared acquisition of 26 Rafales (22 x single-seat M and 4 x twin-seat shore-based aircraft) for Navy. Deal worth Rs. 63,000 crores ($7.3 billion) expected to be signed this month.

VIDEO: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1909875578703933941 ---> India’s 2nd Rafale fighter deal cleared, all set to be signed this month. Deal for 26 Rafale-M fighters for the Indian Navy. I report with details:

Not directed at you Snehasis Saar, just reproducing a tweet below to understand the cost.

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/1909928222847873371 ---> Don't arrive at per aircraft cost by just dividing Rs. 63,000 crores with 26. There are a lot of overheads involved in this deal, which is similar to the earlier Rafale deal. It includes training, establishment of simulation centers, weapons package & integration, MRO at various levels, etc.

[A Deshmukh]

Any idea, if the actual agreement is in Rupees, or Euros or Dollars?
Payments will be over a period of 0-6 years... a lot of changes can happen in the exchange rate...particularly as de-dollarisation is in the works.

[Rakesh]

Any idea, if the actual agreement is in Rupees, or Euros or Dollars?
Payments will be over a period of 0-6 years... a lot of changes can happen in the exchange rate...particularly as de-dollarisation is in the works.

I believe it will be in Euros, just like in the first Rafale deal.

[Cyrano]

Euro is also likely to deprecate wrt Rupee in the coming years.

[Aditya_V]

How come no question on how the IAC 1 lift size issue is being mentioned, and how ordering LCA Navy Mk1A for carrier training purposes

[A Deshmukh]

Rs.63,000 cr ~= 6.5B Euros
if Euro depreciates by 30% in the next few years, the deal size will come down to Rs.44-50k cr. (for the same Euros).
about Rs. 8k cr per year (out of budget of Rs.2L cr per year and rising)

[Snehashis]

How come no question on how the IAC 1 lift size issue is being mentioned, and how ordering LCA Navy Mk1A for carrier training purposes

As per report IN Rafale will come with fold-able wings. No information that whether a twin seater Rafale-M will be developed or there will be 22 Rafale-M and 4 Rafale-B.

Also we are procuring 10 Buddy refueling system for IAF Rafales included in this deal.


https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/india-t ... ft-8122986

[Rakesh]

^ You have covered it, in detail, in an earlier post

Summary IIRC - Basic academic and simulator training course followed by advanced flight training at land based air and navy bases followed by qualification training and evaluation on actual carriers.

See these absolutely amazing videos on carrier training and qualifications, courtesy of a US Navy officer...who has a youtube account called GrowlerJams. The first video is just nine months old and the second video is a year old. The commentary and visuals in the first video are worth their weight in gold.

The trainer aircraft in question in both videos is the T-45 Goshawk. Too bad our stakeholders lack the vision, because the T-45 Goshawk replacement is coming up. The Naval Tejas Mk1 is more than a worthy replacement. But we will take our own sweet time to complete the development.

Carrier Landings: Navy’s Toughest Student Training
YouTube Link ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swjSIDlSzY0

Watch Nervous Students Launch Off A Navy Warship
YouTube Link ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTKbRONAUFw

[Cyrano]

Nice !
Hope to see such stuff about Vicky's ski jump and recovery some time...

[Rakesh]

India, France to sign their largest ever deal for Rafale-Marine fighter jets on April 28
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 419202630/
19 April 2025

[Rakesh]

^^^will start a new Rafale thread once the deal is signed.

[VKumar]

One squadron of Rafale every year till AMCA is available
Don't forget!

[Khalsa]

....

Warms the cockles of my heart.
If this does materialise. It will truly be coming of the Indian Naval Aviation.

[nachiket]

The MiG-29K/KUB have been a disaster for the Navy.

Having said that Yes, disasters in terms of maintenance, availability and just plain pain the butt as systems were taking a hit due to the corrosive sea environment with many systems not being sea ready. Derated take off loads due to heat, etc.

It probably just was a stopgap. The LCA-Navy would have been the ideal replacement, but after reading Cmd Maolankars inputs on this it is evident that in its current iteration it would have been severely limited aircraft for naval use. And considering that now we are looking at 2 carriers with one being a more available platform (Vikrant), makes sense for it to have Rafales on board with VikAD taking a more backup carrier approach.

The order size also indicates that maybe the Navy is still hoping for HAL /ADA to deliver a homegrown Naval fighter.

I'm sorry but this seems like a bit of unintentional historical revisionism to me. The Mig-29K was never supposed to be a stopgap. India is not a country which can afford 45 carrier capable 4+ Gen fighter jets along with their type-specific weapons, spares, training costs, maintenance facilities etc. as "stopgaps". And the LCA Navy's size has always been known to the Navy. It could have never replaced the Mig-29K, only supplemented it in a hi-low mix even if it had be inducted. An aircraft of the LCA's size can never match the Mig-29K in payload/range.

I've seen reports, quotes, wink-wink-nudge-nudge statements over the years blaming the "failure" of the NLCA as the reason why we need Rafales/F-18's, ever since it first came out that the Navy was looking for more jets. And it has irked me to no end because it makes absolutely no sense. Especially since the Mig-29K's maintenance and reliability/availability issues are well known. The simple reason why the Navy needs Rafales now is because there is a wide gap in the expected capability of the Mig-29K and the actual experience in practice. But then it is far easier to pin the blame on indigenous products.

[Nikhil_Naya]

I'm sorry but this seems like a bit of unintentional historical revisionism to me. The Mig-29K was never supposed to be a stopgap. India is not a country which can afford 45 carrier capable 4+ Gen fighter jets along with their type-specific weapons, spares, training costs, maintenance facilities etc. as "stopgaps". And the LCA Navy's size has always been known to the Navy. It could have never replaced the Mig-29K, only supplemented it in a hi-low mix even if it had be inducted. An aircraft of the LCA's size can never match the Mig-29K in payload/range.

I've seen reports, quotes, wink-wink-nudge-nudge statements over the years blaming the "failure" of the NLCA as the reason why we need Rafales/F-18's, ever since it first came out that the Navy was looking for more jets. And it has irked me to no end because it makes absolutely no sense. Especially since the Mig-29K's maintenance and reliability/availability issues are well known. The simple reason why the Navy needs Rafales now is because there is a wide gap in the expected capability of the Mig-29K and the actual experience in practice. But then it is far easier to pin the blame on indigenous products.

If you go through what Cmd Maolankar has written/ spoken about the LCA Navy - it is not that the Navy didn't support it. It was just that with he added weight/ dimensions of the undercarriage, strengthening of key LRU's and structures, the a/c didn't have the required performance that would have made it a useful deck based aircraft. While the Navy was cognizant that this would be the case, maybe they would have been okay with a certain percentage trade off and it well exceeded it. That made the LCA Navy a tech demonstrator.

Yes the LCA Navy would have at most been a supplemental aircraft to the Mig 29K. Maybe one squadron of Mig29 each on VikAD/ Vikrant plus a squadron of LCA Navy would have cut it. The Mig29s being the "aggressors" with range and LCA Navy acting as point defence? A scenario that would have certainly been true. And equally true is the aspect that we didn't have choice other than the Mig29K at that time.

[basant]

... Due to this being a first-time effort to design and develop a carrier borne fighter aircraft, there was conservatism in the platform leading to a mass increase by about 400 to 500 kg. This is why the thrust available for deck take-off fell short of mission objectives. It was thus decided that the LCA Navy Mk1 would be only a ‘Technology Demonstrator’ and utilized to conduct carrier suitability tests and demonstration.

The statement made by the CNS Admiral Sunil Lanba on 03 December 2016 of the aircraft being overweight pertains to the LCA Navy Mk1, and not the redesigned and optimised LCA Navy Mk2.

Why Navy’s rejection of Naval LCA is wrong by Cmde CD Balaji, ex-Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, and head of the naval LCA programme

[ramana]

Monday govt will sign the 26 Rafale M deal.

It will be signed in French Embassy in Delhi.