Pahalgam Terror Attack: News & Discussion

[williams]

Related to above discussion:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 771330.cms

I understand its not the "same thing" as what we were talking about.

You were talking about the opposite. Stop Pakistani airlines from operating in their own airspace. If a war breaks out with the IAF and PAF involved that will happen automatically. Or you could do it by declaring that you will consider any aircraft flying inside paki airspace as hostile. You don't actually have to do anything. Which airline will take the risk at a time like this? But bear in mind that this would go both ways. Pakis can also declare the same thing and stop airlines from flying over northern and western India at least again without actually doing anything I suppose.

Very true S400s can detect targets up to 600 KM and engage targets up to 400 KM. With the Paki geographic depth, we can engage them effectively almost everywhere except may be west extreme of Baluchistan. Navy guys should take care of covering that area. So my speculation is the very first we will hear soon are massive SEAD missions that will blind the Pakis first. Then the real fun will start. For all we know Munir should already be in a cozy bunker right now.

[nachiket]

Mod Note: Guys, if you see anyone on twitter make big claims about some action on the border or aerial engagements etc. please check who they are and what their source is before believing any of it and especially before posting here. Rumors of everything from Sialkot being bombed to Akhnoor-chicken's neck being captured have been running wild on Twitter. All of them are baseless and the product of engagement farming by accounts which specialize in it. They have seen their chance to get eyeballs and make money off of the situation and are making merry right now. Others may be running psyops to counter paki social media psyops. Some are doing both.

Random twitteroos aren't going to have sources deep within the govt. or armed forces willing to break opsec to provide them with juicy information. If you see credible news organizations reporting it then that is a different scenario though even they have a habit of reporting rumour as fact sometimes.

So unless it is a credible source do not post it here. It reduces the quality of discussion and clutters up the thread.

[Cain Marko]

Praveen Swami reports that one of the options being considered is grabbing some territory in Leepa and Neelam valleys https://theprint.in/opinion/security-co ... l/2609813/

Now the thing is Praveen Swami wrote it because Govt wanted him to but why though? To gauge international reaction? Force Pakis to commit a mistake? Mislead Pakis and launch ops elsewhere?

Media houses and reporters alike want to report on this topic, since it is the hot one for their consumers. However Modi sarkar is running a tight ship and have not divulged or even leaked any information. So everyone is speculating, including the Pakis. I would say if we are going to grab territory, we can go really big why limit to small border enclaves. Also how is that going to inflict unbearable cost if we have done that kind of thing already with little visible change in Paki mindset.

To what effect saar? With territory comes a LOT of people (of the very dubious sort too). grabbing is one thing, holding on to hostile territory is altogether another point. I don't think it is even possible unless we have some kind of dystopian, apocalyptic aar-paar ladhai, and who wants that except perhaps those who truly hate life?
grabbing and holding on to small strategic areas might make sense (chicken neck - Akhnoor type places), but grabbing large swaths of land of a country that is falling apart all on its own would be to unnecessarily interfere in its soosai. Let it go and make it easier for them. Tighten the noose whereever possible, yank on a loose end every now and again - (arbitrary and vicious Indus water control, FATF blacklisting, blockade trade, support BLA and others - constant civil strife, occasional kinetic action that really undermines TSPA image etc.) will do the trick, without much loss of life, time and resources.

Euthanization is humane no?

[Vayutuvan]

So what .....
... philosophy can always be debated later, over a tall glass of beer

Modi ji knows what he is doing.

True chetak gaaru. I have taken back what I said. Tall glass of cold beer is a good choice to ease into a heavy philosophical debate.

[vimal]

^^ Abeyance is not good enough. It must be abrogated

[S_Madhukar]

Usually the demand would have been handover XYZ etc or else but looks like GoI is willing to put them in indefinite detention and with every new misdemeanour inflict new punishment probably not gamed yet … the last punishment will be danda for which services have been given free will to game, test and execute… may well be classic manoeuvre tactics like the Battle of Palkhed making Nizam huff and puff and finally sign the deal ?! Because after this month that is it till fall.

[KL Dubey]

You were talking about the opposite. Stop Pakistani airlines from operating in their own airspace. If a war breaks out with the IAF and PAF involved that will happen automatically. Or you could do it by declaring that you will consider any aircraft flying inside paki airspace as hostile. You don't actually have to do anything. Which airline will take the risk at a time like this? But bear in mind that this would go both ways. Pakis can also declare the same thing and stop airlines from flying over northern and western India at least again without actually doing anything I suppose.

Yes, exactly. It does not take much.

[vimal]

Has India declared a no fly zone over its airspace for any flights headed to Pakistan yet?

[wig]

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 511670.ece

India retaliates, closes airspace for Pakistani airlines & aircraft
extracted from above

On late Wednesday night, India issued a ‘Notice to Airmen’ declaring its airspace closed for Pakistan-registered airlines and aircraft, including military flights, from May 1 until May 23

[brvarsh]

To what effect saar? With territory comes a LOT of people (of the very dubious sort too). grabbing is one thing, holding on to hostile territory is altogether another point. I don't think it is even possible unless we have some kind of dystopian, apocalyptic aar-paar ladhai, and who wants that except perhaps those who truly hate life?
grabbing and holding on to small strategic areas might make sense (chicken neck - Akhnoor type places), but grabbing large swaths of land of a country that is falling apart all on its own would be to unnecessarily interfere in its soosai. Let it go and make it easier for them. Tighten the noose whereever possible, yank on a loose end every now and again - (arbitrary and vicious Indus water control, FATF blacklisting, blockade trade, support BLA and others - constant civil strife, occasional kinetic action that really undermines TSPA image etc.) will do the trick, without much loss of life, time and resources.

Euthanization is humane no?

We need to get out of this myth that with land comes hostile people. The people of a certain psychology are agnostic to the concept of nation, even though it may appear not. Pakistan was not a country they wanted, they wanted a land where all policies are driven by Islamic ideologies. Many who are seen on the side of Pakistan are not actually fighting for Pakistan, they are fighting to safeguard that ideology. Ideology may be dangerous but if we can manage it, people will happily become part of Hindustan with the land they bring in to re-integrate. No one will cry Pakistan.

[Rakesh]

When the military option is exercised, please remember this message.

Rona-Dhona and any other such behaviour will result in bans. Thank you.

https://x.com/aravind/status/1917435876273184960 ---> This is a message for the younger generation in India who may have never seen a war.

As Indian armed forces start teaching the terrorist country Pakistan a lesson, we may naturally see some losses to our forces. Losses are part of any conflict. It is the end result that matters. In 1971, Pakistan was split into two in just under two weeks. But in those two weeks, India lost 45 planes, 1 frigate, 2500+ soldiers. India also had a few thousand of our soldiers captured, and many Indian air fields and bases were destroyed. This is how wars are. Don't be in any fantasies, and prepare your mind to be as strong as our soldier on the field. Remember, it is the end result that matters.

Pakistan was not just split in two, but tens of thousands of soldiers were killed, and 90,000+ were captured. The rest surrendered on their knees. So don't fall for propaganda that will come from across the borders when we see an Indian air craft downed or a soldier captured. Their propaganda power is immense to affect our psychology as a nation. Because they have their sympathizers and political agents well within in India. And, it is now the age of social media. We haven't had any big conflict in this age. So beware of the extraordinary psyops and always support our brave armed forces risking their lives for us, for whatever decisions they take.

[Cain Marko]

We need to get out of this myth that with land comes hostile people. The people of a certain psychology are agnostic to the concept of nation, even though it may appear not. Pakistan was not a country they wanted, they wanted a land where all policies are driven by Islamic ideologies. Many who are seen on the side of Pakistan are not actually fighting for Pakistan, they are fighting to safeguard that ideology. Ideology may be dangerous but if we can manage it, people will happily become part of Hindustan with the land they bring in to re-integrate. No one will cry Pakistan.

History demonstrates that occupation of a land is extremely difficult - this is not a myth (Iraq and Afghanistan are prime examples where the US faced a debacle and no strategic goals were achieved). If the people in pakistan are so keen to integrate, they would not have separated to begin with. There is no love lost here, who are we kidding? Let us not keep false assumptions - this is not a country and a people that is likely to see Indian jawans as some kind of liberation force. Indian army will most likely be welcomed with entrenched warfare at every step of the way. Iraq and Afghanistan is what I would be considering, not the liberation of Nazi captured Europe.

[gakakkad]

^ agreed . Occupy land only if it helps our cause . Honestly the most economic way might be blow up the Karachi port , followed by SEAD followed by all their air strips f/their power plant and grid . That cause floods . Than impose a tight economic blockade . Famine + disease will take care of a lot of the ensuing mess for us their after

[Amber G.]

S readout of US Secretary of State Marco Rubio Talked to EAM Dr S Jaishankar and Pakistan PM

From EAM Dr. S. Jaishankar (Twitter):

Discussed the Pahalgam terrorist attack with US @SecRubio
yesterday. Its perpetrators, backers and planners must be brought to justice.

US Readout of the call:


There is big story in Dawn about what Pak PM told (complaining about India)- but read out from Washington is:


(Paki story in Dawn basically says: (in Dawn) .. Shehbaz Sharif urged U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio to press India to reduce inflammatory rhetoric and act responsibly, warning that India’s escalatory behavior could hinder Pakistan’s anti-terrorism efforts. Shehbaz rejected Indian accusations linking Pakistan to the attack and called for a neutral investigation. He also condemned India’s alleged use of water as a political tool and emphasized that resolving the Kashmir dispute is vital for lasting peace. Stressing Pakistan’s sacrifices in the war on terror and recent economic reforms, Shehbaz reaffirmed Pakistan’s commitment to peace and deeper U.S. cooperation. Rubio expressed condolences and called for both sides to de-escalate, also holding similar talks with India’s foreign minister. The U.S. emphasized its intent to stay engaged with both nations to maintain regional stability....

[sanjaykumar]

I find it noteworthy that Indian media is interviewing Pakistanis who are married in India as they receive their expulsion orders.

I must admit it is an affecting situation.

However, I do not recall any afghans being interviewed by their momeen brothers as they were expelled. Neither by Pakistani media nor Indian.

I recently donated $5,000 to a Jewish children’s charity. I subsequently learned that it was reportedly ‘right wing’. Of course I was zud pasheman.

But after Pahalgam, I realise exactly what Ghalib meant when he said zud pasheman ka pasheman hona. I understand this to mean more of to regret being regretful.

At any rate let the returning Pakistanis take the message to chief mullah. Just like those wives were told to take the message to Modi

[Anujan]

^^^
Forget about morale. It is an admission by Pak Fauj of involvement - 'The incident done by our Mujahideens ....'
Why is there even a need for a 'neutral investigation'?

Because everyone knows Pakistan is fantastic in investigating itself.

It investigated how Bin Laden was in Pakistan, arrested and threw the doctor who got Bin Laden's DNA sample in jail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakil_Afridi

As my second cousin (thrice removed) used to say, "If India has evidence of terrrorists in Pakistan, India should share it with Pakistan so that the terrorists can be moved to a safer place"

[williams]

Media houses and reporters alike want to report on this topic, since it is the hot one for their consumers. However Modi sarkar is running a tight ship and have not divulged or even leaked any information. So everyone is speculating, including the Pakis. I would say if we are going to grab territory, we can go really big why limit to small border enclaves. Also how is that going to inflict unbearable cost if we have done that kind of thing already with little visible change in Paki mindset.

To what effect saar? With territory comes a LOT of people (of the very dubious sort too). grabbing is one thing, holding on to hostile territory is altogether another point. I don't think it is even possible unless we have some kind of dystopian, apocalyptic aar-paar ladhai, and who wants that except perhaps those who truly hate life?
grabbing and holding on to small strategic areas might make sense (chicken neck - Akhnoor type places), but grabbing large swaths of land of a country that is falling apart all on its own would be to unnecessarily interfere in its soosai. Let it go and make it easier for them. Tighten the noose whereever possible, yank on a loose end every now and again - (arbitrary and vicious Indus water control, FATF blacklisting, blockade trade, support BLA and others - constant civil strife, occasional kinetic action that really undermines TSPA image etc.) will do the trick, without much loss of life, time and resources.

Euthanization is humane no?

I will put it in different way. We know how to be friendly with a lot of people. We have worked with the Afghans both non-Taliban version and Taliban version now. We don't have that much problem with Baluchis or many middle eastern people including the Iranians. We need to cut the land link between Chinese and the Pakis and have control of the Karakoram range. It will also help Balaoch's their freedom. iWe can manage the small crowd of people in GB. In fact I would think they are all are waiting to be liberated from the Paki yoke. I care more about GB/Northern areas than Pok. However we need to get into the business of breaking Pakis into small chunks and remove the Paki military from the equation entirely. To that end we should not be shy to grab territory. We had our chance when we got Bangladesh. We could have picked up few strategically beneficial territory. For some reason we have this Ashoka syndrome today.

[Roop]

When the military option is exercised, please remember this message.

Rona-Dhona and any other such behaviour will result in bans. Thank you.

Thank you for this post, Admiral. I hope you guys (admins) will be diligent and ruthless in enforcing the "No whining / ro-dho" rule.

[drnayar]

Do the forum members remember the months before the Russians entered ukraine.. the public posturing of Ukraine and the collective west taunting the Russians.. for those who know please post..

[bala]

On the China angle, both Pukes and China have gamed the scenario, and are wanting a war with India. This will bog down India and also prevent the transition of industries from China to India. The Pukes are generating 40 GW hr of power but their internal consumption is only 32GW hr the rest is shunted to Xinjiang for China consumption.

In 2016 the Modi Govt entrusted Principal Sec Nripendra Misra to study IWT as a task force for water issues and sharing. IWT abeyance is the culimination of such study. Meanwhile the Pukes, with China, created low yield nuclear weapons that can be used in battlefield scenarios. LeT of Pukes has an agenda to hoist in lal quila the flag of pukes since they believe it is their land under the Mughals. Their aim is escalation and embroil India. However, India has to play this game, to take away any control they have in instigating such showdown. India has to take away LeT control via non-kinetic means, e.g., cyber attack using private firms. Make no mistake that LeT is part of the Puke state and army. One of the revenue stream for Pak Army is narcotics. Disrupting the supply lines is crucial, since one of the drug supply chain happens to be in India. The Khalistanis are part of this supply chain. The Hawala chain is spread to the middle east, even china. China is also supplying Baidu navigation system to the Pukes.

Internal contradictions of the Puke state is enough for its collapse. India should actively support dissent within Paxtan, the BLA, Sindhs, Afghans and more. Focus should be to catalyze the disintegration of Puke land from within. The loans given by the US are an impediment to its destruction. There is no immediate rush, India has to play strategic game, pouncing on opportunities.

China is lying low for now. If kinetics start they will jump into the fray - ladakh war/NE war, restricting API for drug manufacture in India, etc. The trade deficit with India will be exploited by China. The Cheens are integrated with Puke Army and consider them as an extension of their own forces.

I. Chand Malhotra explains

youtube.com/watch?v=FbXfBdIy7aA

// I am wondering about the whereabouts of the 4 gunmen who murdered tourist. India needs to send the unknown gunmen and take them out in Puke land.

[Deans]

Please refrain from posting unverified stories from twitter warriors. It degrades the quality of discourse.

Baba banares channel is withheld in Twitter. many bombastic and jingoistic comments on going across channels and individual person account.

Just as well. He is less accurate than the `broken clock right twice a day' and contributes nothing to an intelligent discussion.

[Deans]

Praveen Swami reports that one of the options being considered is grabbing some territory in Leepa and Neelam valleys https://theprint.in/opinion/security-co ... l/2609813/

Now the thing is Praveen Swami wrote it because Govt wanted him to but why though? To gauge international reaction? Force Pakis to commit a mistake? Mislead Pakis and launch ops elsewhere?

Praveen Swami is the last person the army will discuss their plans with -though GHQ Rawalpindi might.
For those who don't know, his `partner' Gazala Wahab is from the JNU school of jihad.

[Ashokk]

Huge Standoff Building Up In Attari Border, Pakistan Refuses To Accept Pakistani Citizens, Sources

[madhu]

We need to pass a law that no Pakistani or expaki can get Indian visa.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1917765666217812184 ---> Use of long-range weapons for limited #PunitiveStrikes against Pakistan, without crossing the #LoC, is being considered the preferred military option as of now, as the #CCS reviewed security situation while firing exchanges between the armies have now extended to the IB as well.

[Rakesh]

From the Def Sec of the US. Repeat this verbatim to crazies in the US State Dept when they talk about restraint with Pakistan.

https://x.com/SecDef/status/1917741093392707886 ---> Message to IRAN: We see your LETHAL support to The Houthis. We know exactly what you are doing. You know very well what the U.S. Military is capable of — and you were warned. You will pay the CONSEQUENCE at the time and place of our choosing.

below....

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1917904488200876498 ---> Defence Minister Rajnath Singh speaks with US Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth amidst tensions with Pakistan. Security scenario discussed.

[KL Dubey]

Media houses and reporters alike want to report on this topic, since it is the hot one for their consumers. However Modi sarkar is running a tight ship and have not divulged or even leaked any information. So everyone is speculating, including the Pakis. I would say if we are going to grab territory, we can go really big why limit to small border enclaves. Also how is that going to inflict unbearable cost if we have done that kind of thing already with little visible change in Paki mindset.

To what effect saar? With territory comes a LOT of people (of the very dubious sort too). grabbing is one thing, holding on to hostile territory is altogether another point. I don't think it is even possible unless we have some kind of dystopian, apocalyptic aar-paar ladhai, and who wants that except perhaps those who truly hate life?
grabbing and holding on to small strategic areas might make sense (chicken neck - Akhnoor type places), but grabbing large swaths of land of a country that is falling apart all on its own would be to unnecessarily interfere in its soosai. Let it go and make it easier for them. Tighten the noose whereever possible, yank on a loose end every now and again - (arbitrary and vicious Indus water control, FATF blacklisting, blockade trade, support BLA and others - constant civil strife, occasional kinetic action that really undermines TSPA image etc.) will do the trick, without much loss of life, time and resources.

Euthanization is humane no?

POJK and GB are the territory of the Republic of Bharat formed in 1950, illegally occupied as of now. They must be taken back as first priority in some proactive manner, either through engineering collapse of Paastan or by direct military action. This is not any kind of "grabbing", it is taking back what is ours.

It seems rona dhona has already started even before military strikes

Beyond that, it can be debated as to whether there is a strategic need to take "other territory" that is part of Akhand Bharat. I think some negotiation with the Afghans to split up KPK would be appropriate.

[Dilbu]

After this much posturing and build up, firing a few missiles or artillery across LoC will not be enough to satiate public outcry. PM has set the expectation high and anything short of a spectacular strike achieving some major objectives will be seen as weakness.

[A_Gupta]

^^^ TFT spin on that in the Terrorist State thread.

[Hriday]

So the news of India considering only the limited punitive strikes by long-range missiles without crossing borders is almost exactly as what I suggested earlier.

The next question is what will be the Pakistani reaction? If Pakistan declares that it will retaliate similarly at a time of its convenience, then that will seriously affect the image of India as a safe investment destination, especially in Northern India. International flights, tourism etc also will be affected. To counter a prolonged wait or for the response against the retaliatory strike by Pakistan India will have to strike again.

I hope that this second retaliatory strike by India will be the real deal, and it will involve land grabs in plains and in vital areas across LoC or the implementation of the Cold Start doctrine.

But like what happened in the case of Israel Iran conflict, it may end quickly. So I hope that a retaliatory strike by India involves the sinking of a few expensive naval vessels at least.

[Dilbu]

The question really is where are we going to strike with long range options now. TSP has got enough warning and time to move the entire terrorist infrastructure underground. If we were going to strike terrorist training facilities, it should have been in the immediate aftermath of the attack. What could be the potential targets of the strike now? Also we cannot rule out such news being part of the psyops itself while the real strike would be somewhere else in another form.

[gakakkad]

^^ their main terror infra is not movable. where they going to move the Pindi HQ or their airbase etc. i am willing to bet (base on very "credble allegations" ) that India will target the very core of terror AKA pak-"army" HQ and core com-gaandoos homes etc with budget Brahmos.

[Deans]

Since Pak has declared the Shimla agreement void, the LOC is now a disputed border.
We need to do a Kargil in reverse. Improve our positions on the LOC - shorten it (Uri-Poonch Bulge), take some posts which facilitate infiltration.
Bring Muzaffarabad in artillery (or at least MLRS) range.
Terrorist infra is not longer a target, the Pak army is the terror infrastructure.

[drnayar]

The question really is where are we going to strike with long range options now. TSP has got enough warning and time to move the entire terrorist infrastructure underground. If we were going to strike terrorist training facilities, it should have been in the immediate aftermath of the attack. What could be the potential targets of the strike now? Also we cannot rule out such news being part of the psyops itself while the real strike would be somewhere else in another form.

i think this is also what bharat would want to know.. just where is the only question. i suspect suitable munitions do exist to take care of "bunkers" .. let them cook for a while . off note the use of satellite enable smart phones [ Huawei ] that looks just like the normal phone is the new problem for security forces, and these apparently use chinese networks

[drnayar]

Since Pak has declared the Shimla agreement void, the LOC is now a disputed border.
We need to do a Kargil in reverse. Improve our positions on the LOC - shorten it (Uri-Poonch Bulge), take some posts which facilitate infiltration.
Bring Muzaffarabad in artillery (or at least MLRS) range.
Terrorist infra is not longer a target, the Pak army is the terror infrastructure.

hope that there is a real shackinaw from multiple directions

[bala]

On the night of April 29th and 30th, the Indian Army responded decisively to unprovoked small arms fire by the Pakistan Army across the Line of Control. The incidents took place in the Naushera, Sunderbani, and Akhnoor sectors of Jammu and Kashmir. According to official reports, Indian troops acted swiftly and with precision. This marks the sixth straight day of strong Indian responses following similar provocations beginning on the night of April 25th. Tensions along the LoC continue to escalate, as security forces ramp up anti-terror operations in Kashmir. These measures come in the wake of the deadly Phalgam terror attack on April 22nd, which claimed the lives of 26 people. Amid the rising tension, Prime Minister Narendra Modi chaired a high-level security meeting on Tuesday. In attendance were Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, Chief of Defence Staff General Anil Chauhan, the three service chiefs, and National Security Advisor Ajit Doval. The meeting followed an earlier session of the Cabinet Committee on Security, convened on April 23rd after the attack on tourists in Pahalgam. Government sources revealed that Prime Minister Modi reiterated India’s firm resolve to crush terrorism. He expressed full confidence in the Indian Armed Forces, stating they have complete operational freedom to determine how, when, and where to respond.

Indian Army retaliates after Pakistan opens fire at LoC
April 29, 2025
youtube.com/watch?v=EEii7IXHpiQ

[SRajesh]

The tension on the other side is quite palpable.
Not just the Jernails and Kernails, even the booka awan is unable to control and are ejaculating!!
Kab, Kahan or Kaisey is killing them!!

[bala]

Looks like the other ASim Malik has staged a mini-coup the ISI Chefship, is now NSA of Puke land, while ASim Munir is hiding in UK with his family. Poor PM Shehbaz Sharif has no clue and Shehbaz Sharif has been sidelined. PA Chef ASim Munir will come out of the cave with a grown beard and green head band to rally his nation. The two ASim will bravely fight against India.

youtube.com/watch?v=Qpg4G4w8VGE

[A_Gupta]

IMO. I think Retd Major Gaurav Arya has the right idea that terrorist attacks in India henceforth are met with retaliation within a matter of hours. There need be no more deep pondering any more than with firing across the LOC.

The parameters of retaliation should have been figured out beforehand.

Extra retaliation can go up to the Union Cabinet, if necessary.

[sajaym]

This thread has now reached the 18th page without a response. This shows how important it was to have had something like a 'Cold Start' doctrine even for terrorist attacks. A 'Cold Response' would have been:
1. Target all the Paki posts immediately with artillery
2. Target all terrorist camps near the border with artillery/ drone strikes
3. Cause quid pro quo terror attacks within Pakistan.

Instead... while we were sitting and sabre-rattling, the Pakistanis have emptied their posts, emptied their terrorist camps near the border and grabbed the global eyeballs with their constant threats & claims. I bet that the slowness of our response must be even disgusting our Allies. Turns out that the first response of the 'First Responder' of this region to a massacre of civilians within its country...was to announce a series of measures. MEASURES!! not a bullet, shell or bomb but MEASURES!!

Meanwhile media houses and fanboys are dreaming up deadly scenarios of punitive strikes and the IMMINENT collapse & disintegration of Pakistan. We are not Indians, we are now Bollywoodians!