Pahalgam Terror Attack: News & Discussion

[gakakkad]

^of course . In the last 2 pages of this thread itself there are 2 PhDs , 2 MDs ,1 MD/PhD and several engineers. More brain power than any talk show and probably more than entire porkistan combined .

[KL Dubey]

^of course . In the last 2 pages of this thread itself there are 2 PhDs , 2 MDs ,1 MD/PhD and several engineers. More brain power than any talk show and probably more than entire porkistan combined .

On a typical airline flight, there will be at least 30-50 PhDs, MDs, engineers, MBAs, etc etc. However, only the pilot (typically high school diploma + pilot diploma) is considered reliable to fly the plane to safety in event of any issues.

[sanjaykumar]

That is a great perspective. To keep things humble.

Sincerely,

Sanjaykumar BSc Honours First Class MSc PhD MD cum laude DSc ABC GGH DODO (fail)

[Jay]

People who are asking for ASAP kinetic action, please understand that escalation ladder and potential for body counts both military and civilian and also if it ends a long drawn attrition.
Also what is the objective and what do we achieve with another Balakote strike!!
Another couple of years of quite period and then it starts again.
Dismantling the terror structure is a long drawn attritional war!!

Rajesh ji, I do not think people are asking about kinetic action ASAP. But people are justifiably frustrated that even after all the pakis have done time and again, there is no plan of action on how to respond when...a) the pakis do it again, OR, b) how to punish the perps if they do it, OR, c) what punitive action to take so it is not repeated again.

Since 2014, there have been 12 terror attacks, and we have only responded/escalated twice and even then the 2019 airstrike is the only one where we felt we had the initiative.

It was a given that pakis will do this at some point, so a sensible citizen would have expected a plan to be already in place on how to respond. But, we were caught up in unpreparedness, tardiness, and searching for a way to respond, even after almost 2 weeks after the massacre.

Either we are okay with pakis harrying our civilians so that we can get to that next trillion dollars faster, or we do not have any means to respond. It doesn't give us much confidence.

[williams]

Hawkeye acquired for 131 million dollars
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 859058.cms

[bala]

Just some background from memory: During Buddha II of Vajapayee Govt. Indian nuke bombs were exploded including H-Bomb. Soon after Puke land insisted that they would explode +1 more than India. Some weeks later, they first tried A. Q. Khan bomb which fizzled and Germany & Japan both reported this news, it was quickly withdrawn. A. Q. Khan was fired from his post later on.

Puke land PM Navaz Sharif ran to China to release their bomb codes. China had parked their bombs for (their own) testing purpose in Puke land and with US Clinton (paid of by the Chinese) nod the Pukes exploded Cheen bomb (reportedly of low yield!). The Ayatollahs of Nuke deterrence published that Puke land had more bombs than India (they quoted the Cheen bomb #s). The US later clamped down their own safety mechanism PAL on cheen bombs as insurance that Puke land does not have complete ownership with Cheen. This was their arrangement to keep India in check. Later on this technique was used by the US and they handcuffed India during Kargil war. A huge cry of nuclear armed adversaries at war, etc. I am sure the Indian side is well aware of what transpired and know the intricate details.

My own take is that the Pukes are nuke nude with Cheen oriented bombs as a bluff. Note that the top Indian leadership is not concerned about nuclear threat.

[williams]

^ would that be a surgical 45kt boosted fission on the nook site ? Or would the response be 30 * 200kt Teller ulams all over puke land with the aim of de-existing them .

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 18_1.html

Read what India was willing to do 25 years ago. Indian politicos may look pot bellied and naive but they mean business in these matters. Also, people give a lot credence to Paki beggar's making blustering statement without any depth but mock our own generals providing insights without breaking their commitment to OSA. So far Pakis are spared because of some level of Dharmic thinking from the Indian side, but that has ended long ago.

[Deans]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1918 ... cJ_oA&s=19

Pakistan’s military readiness is facing a serious crisis. Due to excessive arms sales to Ukraine and others, it’s estimated that Pakistan can sustain only 4 days of high-intensity conflict. A strategic blunder in the making ? By selling its stock for money ??

Pakistan has critical artillery to fight for just 4 days: intel assessment

What was supplied by Pak to Ukraine was (most likely) only 155mm ammo and probably near expiry stock - or even expired.
I don't think their overall ammunition stocks will be very different from ours. Besides, some stock can be quickly replenished by China.

[Amber G.]

^^^

Just some background from memory: During Buddha II of Vajapayee Govt. Indian nuke bombs were exploded including H-Bomb..

I will put some comments in details for the above later.. but my take -

While the full details of our(India's) nuclear programs are rightly classified, as someone familiar with the strategic and technical dimensions, I can say with confidence that India possesses a robust, well-tested, and independently developed nuclear arsenal. Our capabilities span fission, boosted fission, and thermonuclear designs, supported by a credible delivery and command structure. Pakistan’s program, though less advanced and heavily reliant on past Chinese assistance, has managed to establish a basic but functional deterrent. They likely possess a modest number of deliverable warheads and sufficient infrastructure to maintain second-strike credibility. In strategic terms, both sides are deterred — but India’s program stands on far firmer scientific and institutional ground..

[sajaym]

So far Pakis are spared because of some level of Dharmic thinking from the Indian side, but that has ended long ago.

Beg to differ, the Dharmic thinking is still alive. Let me give you a few examples:
1. A few days back a BSF soldier of ours was captured by Pakistan - his picture was immediately put out on media. Yesterday, we have captured a Pakistani ranger - his picture is still not shown.
2. On TV channels our generals and air marshals are talking about the delay in strikes being due to choosing the appropriate target and choosing the appropriate weapons ...to avoid collateral damage. This after 26 of our citizens have been collaterally damaged for ever.
3. Our diplomats running all over the world trying to woo other nations and their media to our way of thinking with good Oxford dictionary english. While the Pakistanis keep threatening us and the world with their nuclear weapons on an hourly basis.

When you put all this together, you begin to wonder...is it any surprise that this country has been invaded and conquered by other civilizations so many times in the past. That's because our security establishment (past and the present) seems to always want to play by the book and respect Dharmic principles over ruthless pragmatism. 'Non-alignment', 'Strategic autonomy', 'Global first Responder', 'Vasudev-ka-bum', 'Global South ka baap' ...talk, talk, talk and eventually everyone will WALK over you while you are left talking.

[vera_k]

2. On TV channels our generals and air marshals are talking about the delay in strikes being due to choosing the appropriate target and choosing the appropriate weapons ...to avoid collateral damage. This after 26 of our citizens have been collaterally damaged for ever.

They need to be preparing the ground to tolerate massive casualties on the Pak side. It is unavoidable given the terrorists are mixed in with civilians. One can hope the reason the navy is deployed is because that's the best way to target dawood in Karachi.

[Amber G.]

Just some background from memory: During Buddha II of Vajapayee Govt. Indian nuke bombs were exploded including H-Bomb. Soon after Puke land insisted that they would explode +1 more than India. Some weeks later, they first tried A. Q. Khan bomb which fizzled and Germany & Japan both reported this news, it was quickly withdrawn. A. Q. Khan was fired from his post later on.

Puke land PM Navaz Sharif ran to China to release their bomb codes. China had parked their bombs for (their own) testing purpose in Puke land and with US Clinton (paid of by the Chinese) nod the Pukes exploded Cheen bomb (reportedly of low yield!). The Ayatollahs of Nuke deterrence published that Puke land had more bombs than India (they quoted the Cheen bomb #s). The US later clamped down their own safety mechanism PAL on cheen bombs as insurance that Puke land does not have complete ownership with Cheen. This was their arrangement to keep India in check. Later on this technique was used by the US and they handcuffed India during Kargil war. A huge cry of nuclear armed adversaries at war, etc. I am sure the Indian side is well aware of what transpired and know the intricate details.

My own take is that the Pukes are nuke nude with Cheen oriented bombs as a bluff. Note that the top Indian leadership is not concerned about nuclear threat.

There has been much speculation—some informed, lot of it not—about the origins, capabilities, and strategic dynamics of nuclear weapons programs here in BRF. While some posts here arevoften shaped by dramatic narratives, it is important to assess such issues based on scientific insight, logic, and known historical developments.

Some comments:

During Buddha II of Vajpayee Govt. Indian nuke bombs were exploded including H-Bomb"

There are 3 threads and 6,000 posts - including hundred or so my posts - covering this aspect in BRF 16 years ago (still in archives ).. so no comment about 'real' H-Bomb' (BTW our PM then said that that 45 KT device (and others) were " is now a nuclear weapons state... Ours will never be weapons of aggression." ..)

Germany & Japan both reported this news" (regarding a fizzled Pakistani test)

No evidence. . All six of Pakistan’s nuclear tests (May 28 and 30, 1998) were officially acknowledged, with no official foreign reports of a failed test prior. (Likely fabricated or rumor-based.)

China had parked their bombs in Puke land"

No evidence: While China did assist Pakistan’s nuclear program in earlier decades (especially the 1980s), there is no credible evidence that Chinese nuclear weapons were stationed in Pakistan for testing. This would represent an unprecedented geopolitical risk, and no known declassified material supports it.

US later clamped down their own safety mechanism PAL on Cheen bombs

Incorrect context: The U.S. has never had control over Chinese nuclear weapons or their Permissive Action Links (PALs). The U.S. does use PALs for its own arsenal, and it has advised others on nuclear safety (e.g., post-1998 India-Pak stability talks), but it has no authority to install PALs on foreign nuclear weapons.

"A. Q. Khan was fired after test"

Timeline error: A.Q. Khan was not removed right after the 1998 tests. His downfall began in 2003–2004 when he was implicated in the nuclear proliferation scandal (selling technology to Iran, Libya, North Korea). He was publicly disgraced in 2004, not 1998.

Used during Kargil war to handcuff India

During the 1999 Kargil War, the U.S. and other powers pressured both India and Pakistan to exercise nuclear restraint, but the suggestion that "PALs" were used to control India is inaccurate. India had (and still has) full control over its arsenal.


Sorry but Mix of half-truths, unverifiable claims, reliance on rumor, speculation, and no citations or verifiable references...

[sanjayc]

Long leaves cancelled at ordinance factories
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 858421.cms

[Amber G.]

A few days back a BSF soldier of ours was captured by Pakistan - his picture was immediately put out on media. Yesterday, we have captured a Pakistani ranger - his picture is still not shown...

Here is the picture ...

Looks like Pakistan has sought a flag meeting with India for Sepoy Muhammad Abdullah of Pakistani Rangers who is in Indian Custody..

[Manish_P]

....One can hope the reason the navy is deployed is because that's the best way to target dawood in Karachi....

He is probably moved every time we attack

Might be near Pindi or some other paki base /academy

[Manish_P]

...
1. A few days back a BSF soldier of ours was captured by Pakistan - his picture was immediately put out on media. Yesterday, we have captured a Pakistani ranger - his picture is still not shown
...

Our media are self-confessed vultures who love to feast on the dead... Paki media are also similar but they are completely under the boots of the self-confessed Paki Pimp Fauj

[Amber G.]

Biggest ceasefire violation since Pahalgam attack as Pak opens firing at 8 places along LoC

[pravula]

Again, I am hoping we are placing orders for as many 155mm guns as the factories can churn out...

[bala]

Used during Kargil war to handcuff India

During the 1999 Kargil War, the U.S. and other powers pressured both India and Pakistan to exercise nuclear restraint, but the suggestion that "PALs" were used to control India is inaccurate. India had (and still has) full control over its arsenal.

This is misreading of what I wrote. I suggested PALs used only for Puke land weapons not for India. Please re-read since I never suggested that. You are inaccurate about this.

The rest of your stuff is based on reports from both China and US. There will be no evidence out in the open about the perfidy of both China and US in regards to Puke nukes. Pak land does not have the wherewithal to create nukes from scratch. Both China and US were involved and snafus happen all the time, considering the nature of Pak land to steal things. I will leave the rest to individuals to make up their own opinion on this subject. Both B. Clinton and the Chinese were crooks of the highest kind. B. Clinton admitted China into WTO and that started the true rise of China in the world.

I firmly believe Pak land is nuke nude and they are bluffing.

[williams]

So far Pakis are spared because of some level of Dharmic thinking from the Indian side, but that has ended long ago.

Beg to differ, the Dharmic thinking is still alive. Let me give you a few examples:
1. A few days back a BSF soldier of ours was captured by Pakistan - his picture was immediately put out on media. Yesterday, we have captured a Pakistani ranger - his picture is still not shown.
2. On TV channels our generals and air marshals are talking about the delay in strikes being due to choosing the appropriate target and choosing the appropriate weapons ...to avoid collateral damage. This after 26 of our citizens have been collaterally damaged for ever.
3. Our diplomats running all over the world trying to woo other nations and their media to our way of thinking with good Oxford dictionary english. While the Pakistanis keep threatening us and the world with their nuclear weapons on an hourly basis.

When you put all this together, you begin to wonder...is it any surprise that this country has been invaded and conquered by other civilizations so many times in the past. That's because our security establishment (past and the present) seems to always want to play by the book and respect Dharmic principles over ruthless pragmatism. 'Non-alignment', 'Strategic autonomy', 'Global first Responder', 'Vasudev-ka-bum', 'Global South ka baap' ...talk, talk, talk and eventually everyone will WALK over you while you are left talking.

Fair enough. Let us see if India walks or talks this time.

[sanjayc]

Again, I am hoping we are placing orders for as many 155mm guns as the factories can churn out...

This is where the never-ending moon trials and Mars trials and spring, winter, summer and autumn trials for home-grown artillery come to bite us in the ass. We stand nude when the shit hits the fan, so the government's efforts to prevent the inevitable hinges on just "diplomacy." Pakis will give us with whatever they have, while we are shuffling files for 20 years in MoD for "acceptance of necessity."

[A Deshmukh]

When you put all this together, you begin to wonder...is it any surprise that this country has been invaded and conquered by other civilizations so many times in the past. That's because our security establishment (past and the present) seems to always want to play by the book and respect Dharmic principles over ruthless pragmatism. 'Non-alignment', 'Strategic autonomy', 'Global first Responder', 'Vasudev-ka-bum', 'Global South ka baap' ...talk, talk, talk and eventually everyone will WALK over you while you are left talking.

I disagree with your pessimism.
Kinetic actions - bombs, missiles - look all great on TV and Social Media and gives us immediate intense satisfaction.
But there is a cost associated with it - Pilots, Officers, soldiers will lose lives.
If you do not have any close relatives on the frontline, it will be difficult to be sensitive.
considering the population of jihadis available, any action (say Balakot killed 300) are easily replaceble.

On the other hand - Govt is going for a long-term kill.
- Water stoppage - will disrupt their sowing cycle and crops and food security. 6 months to 1 year down the line this will lead to food riots and total destruction of society in TSP. this itself causes as much as damage, if not more, than a nuclear weapon.
- economic squeeze - most of their trade is with us and that tap is shut off.
- digital/media - shutdown of influence of Indian Ms by their channels and soft power.
- consulates shut down, no visa, no diplomats.

All these steps don't look glamorous for TVs and Social Media but are significant by itself and slowly squeezing the enemy bit by bit for a permanent long-term destruction.

This is ruthless pragmatism.

[drnayar]

Biggest ceasefire violation since Pahalgam attack as Pak opens firing at 8 places along LoC

I don't these are random acts..pakis are likely pushing through terrorists and material ..or a red herring, action happening elsewhere.

[Tanaji]

They are simply goading India to attack in places where it is advantageous for them to start a sharp small war. That will result in a stalemate which they can proclaim as victory to the awam.

That and to present to the awam : look how we are inflicting damage and unafraid of kaffirs. Side bonus of making Modi look weak so that the Mudi shuld rejin brigade have grist for the mill…

[Tanaji]

This is where the never-ending moon trials and Mars trials and spring, winter, summer and autumn trials for home-grown artillery come to bite us in the ass. We stand nude when the shit hits the fan, so the government's efforts to prevent the inevitable hinges on just "diplomacy." Pakis will give us with whatever they have, while we are shuffling files for 20 years in MoD for "acceptance of necessity."

This is by design and in purpose. Same generals and babooze stand to make a lot out of emergency purchases that will inevitably arise in a war situation due to this

[drnayar]

This is where the never-ending moon trials and Mars trials and spring, winter, summer and autumn trials for home-grown artillery come to bite us in the ass. We stand nude when the shit hits the fan, so the government's efforts to prevent the inevitable hinges on just "diplomacy." Pakis will give us with whatever they have, while we are shuffling files for 20 years in MoD for "acceptance of necessity."

This is by design and in purpose. Same generals and babooze stand to make a lot out of emergency purchases that will inevitably arise in a war situation due to this

India is preparing for a decisive war, economically, diplomatic, kinetic and covert. This does not look like balakot redux.Pakis will be squeezed everywhere

[uddu]

If we are not regaining the land that we have lost in the creation of Pakistan, this war will be creating multiple Bangladesh that will be only create multiple mini Pakistan's down the line. What belongs to us must belong to us.

[Deans]

They are simply goading India to attack in places where it is advantageous for them to start a sharp small war. That will result in a stalemate which they can proclaim as victory to the awam.

That and to present to the awam : look how we are inflicting damage and unafraid of kaffirs. Side bonus of making Modi look weak so that the Mudi shuld rejin brigade have grist for the mill…

Exactly. We don't have the means for the army to do a big arrow offensive and `Cut Pak in two', which is the wet dream of many of us.
Anything short of that result will be spun as a Pak victory - against a much bigger enemy etc.

Economic pressure hurts them more and that is where we are strongest relative to Pak.
If they want to do exchange of fire across the LOC that's fine too - they will find it less affordable, they run out of ammo faster and their
Baluch and KP insurgencies start heating up - while we hopefully curtail the 4th column in India.

[uddu]

https://x.com/MeghUpdates/status/1919014266184651134
@MeghUpdates
BIG DECISION! NBDA BANS all panelists from Pakistan on Indian news debates.

— NO more enemy narratives on Indian TV.

[uddu]

These are very much needed to clean up the perception and narrative war which is also part and parcel of warfighting. The problem was that they removed all these kind of blockades and options and only applying it when large number of people get murdered. When the daily wage workers were getting murdered, these things were not thought of or even implemented. Don't think even today Govt has any idea or resolve to end the problem once and forever. It's bits and pieces. They are only vouching to retake POK. Must have included large liberation of large portion of Punjab, Baluchistan, Sindh and merging it to India and making large portion of it India's own Area 51. Even it could all start with undeclared blockade of Pakistan with IN boarding and searching and seizing ships going and coming out of Pakistan. Force everyone who owns those ships to deploy their military to escort them into Pakistan. Make it costly for supporting Pakistan. If Pakistan has not paid for the cargo, you get half or 1/4th. If Pakistan has paid, that cargo belongs to India. It seems its going to be long drawn out conflict rather than India wasting all the outdated Prithvis on Paki military.

[Ashokk]

https://x.com/MeghUpdates/status/1919016840442855615 [video]

All gates of Baglihar Dam on Chenab River CLOSED — Latest Visuals from Ramban, J&K.

— Indus Waters Treaty suspension showing RESULTS.

[uddu]

Thousand cuts replied with Thousand stabs of various kinds. From the social media posts made by pro govt sources, it could be a long drawn out implementation to make todays Pakistan disappear from the map. A timeframe of 3 years is being predicted. I hope that we gain substantial land from it and keep shrinking the problem. Land that's lost for years that's perpetuating this problem from that lost land. There is no other solution to it.

[Manish_P]

...Kinetic actions - bombs, missiles - look all great on TV and Social Media and gives us immediate intense satisfaction.
...
On the other hand - Govt is going for a long-term kill.
...
This is ruthless pragmatism.

The angst is due to people thinking we can't do both or have been late in doing so.

And it is important for the ruling government to be 'seen' to be doing things. Especially in a democracy as unpredictable and sway-able as ours.

I personally believe a kinetic action is happening soon. And i am happy that strategic long term action also seems to be underway.

[chetak]

[krithivas]

^^^ Remember Aamir Khan was the guest of Erdogan's wife. It is not just the government, but Indian people visit Turkey as a vacation destination, and Bollywood uses Turkey as a location. We must introspect to why (we) Indians don't have that sense of allegiance and self-respect to our own nation and why we make an expensive choice to fraternize Turkey which is feeding our enemy.

[vera_k]

Are people aware to care?
I suggest restrooms be mandated to display the Pak flag for women's and Turkey flag for men's. That will get people to start asking questions.

[suryag]

Vimal you will get a ban if you continue rhetorics over here, please take it to your X account(I have deleted your useless posts)

[Roop]

If the UK & EU don’t shape up, India needs to withdraw from all the climate nonsense treaties. Yes, it’s a sword over their heads.

I think India should withdraw from these stupid treaties regardless of what the EU / UK does or doesn't do. This whole theory of man-made global warming / climate change is a massive scam. But we shouldn't say anything more on this because that would be thread-hijacking and the admins will come in with a big danda to clobber us.

[Amber G.]

Long Reply - But it is important (lot of information) to put it here:

During the 1999 Kargil War, the U.S. and other powers pressured both India and Pakistan to exercise nuclear restraint, but the suggestion that "PALs" were used to control India is inaccurate. India had (and still has) full control over its arsenal.

This is misreading of what I wrote. I suggested PALs used only for Puke land weapons not for India. Please re-read since I never suggested that. You are inaccurate about this.

... The rest of your stuff is based on reports from both China and US.

I firmly believe Pak land is nuke nude and they are bluffing.

Balaji: Thank you for the clarification, but I must respectfully reiterate that there was no misreading on my part. I understood that your reference to Permissive Action Links (PALs) pertained to Pakistani weapons, not India's. My earlier point was simply to clarify that even the suggestion that the U.S. imposed PALs or exercised direct control over Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal is unsupported by any credible, evidence.

Few words of On PALs and Command Systems:

PALs are technical safeguards developed to prevent unauthorized arming or detonation of nuclear weapons. Originating in the United States, these systems typically involve electronic locking mechanisms and authentication protocols that restrict access to nuclear warheads unless proper authorization codes are entered.

While India does not use American PAL systems (nor would it be expected to), it maintains its own robust command and control protocols. These include secure communications, layered decision-making hierarchies, and a clearly civilian-controlled Strategic Forces Command—all of which are consistent with best practices in nuclear stewardship. Pakistan, for its part, has also developed a centralized control structure through its Strategic Plans Division, which is believed to maintain operational control over its arsenal.

There is no credible basis to believe that either the U.S. or China has inserted technical locks or override mechanisms into Pakistani nuclear weapons, nor would such an arrangement be strategically or operationally tenable. These are sovereign systems.

With respect to your other comments:

It is well established—and publicly documented—that Pakistan’s nuclear program benefited from significant external support, particularly from China in the 1980s. The transfer of bomb designs and material assistance is not in doubt. Similarly, A.Q. Khan’s network exported sensitive technology to other states, further muddying the waters.

However, from these facts to the assertion that Pakistan is “nuke nude” or bluffing entirely is a substantial leap not supported by evidence. Pakistan conducted six acknowledged nuclear tests in May 1998, with yields consistent with fission-based weapons. These were recorded by multiple international seismic monitoring systems. Since then, Pakistan has continued to develop and field delivery systems, command infrastructure, and a doctrine—however destabilizing—that supports a working deterrent.

To suggest that these developments are entirely for show, or that the nuclear weapons themselves are nonfunctional, is contrary to both strategic logic and physical science. Bluffing at this scale for over two decades, without exposure, would be unprecedented in the history of nuclear affairs.

My perspective is not based solely on U.S. or Chinese sources. It incorporates Indian scientific assessments, independent expert analysis (including from IISS, SIPRI, Carnegie, and others), and basic physics. Yield estimation from seismic data, verification of missile deployment patterns via satellite imagery, and structural analysis of known nuclear facilities all contribute to a this.

We may rightly critique geopolitical behavior—particularly in how the U.S. and China have shaped regional dynamics—but technical analysis must remain anchored in facts, not conjecture.


India’s nuclear program is sovereign, scientifically sophisticated, and strategically credible. Pakistan’s program, though less advanced and externally assisted, has nevertheless crossed the threshold of operational deterrence. To understate that reality risks mischaracterizing the nature of deterrence itself.

Reasoned debate is valuable, but it must remain tethered to what is scientifically observable and strategically coherent.

[Baikul]

Regarding some comments on this thread, there is an old military phrase called “taking counsel of your fears", that I first read in a memoir by Field Marshall Slim and which stuck with me.

It’s about leaders at war and military commanders being bogged down in their planning and execution, because they are afraid of what the enemy and circumstances will do to them, instead of the other way round.

I think that sometimes even us jingos can fall prey to that attitude. This is one such time.

I am sure that our military leaders won’t make that error. They will plan prudently but then commit fully to strike a blow Bakis will remember.