Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 30 Apr 2025 07:29

Don't we have 100s of Astras by now?
Are these not superior than AMRAAM & PL-15?

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 06 May 2025 00:40

If it was 1980, R27 would have been a good option. But carrying a semi active missile in a BVR fight is suicidal. Unless you are firing at a transport there is no chance to maintain lock for the entire flight profile. R-77-1s are sort of equal to AMRAAM C5 variants in range but have a lower MAR because the fins are draggy.

IAF flankers are sort of equivalent to F-16s in combat capability, and Rafales are sort of equal to J10s. Pakistan is superior in terms of awacs. I dont think IAF can dominate Pak airspace as others might think. The only area where India is significantly superior is IN where PN can be obliterated in a matter of days.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 06 May 2025 00:42

A Deshmukh wrote: ↑30 Apr 2025 07:29 Don't we have 100s of Astras by now?
Are these not superior than AMRAAM & PL-15?

Astra Mk1 is = AMRAAM C5
Astra Mk1<PL-15
PL-15<Meteor

India hasn't ordered Astra Mk2 yet, which is a AMRAAM D class missile.

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 06 May 2025 03:38

sohamn wrote: ↑06 May 2025 00:40 IAF flankers are sort of equivalent to F-16s in combat capability, and Rafales are sort of equal to J10s.

my grandmother is "sort of equivalent" to a motorcyle as well. just need to add some wheels and an engine among other things

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 06 May 2025 04:03

J10 is a su-27 family knockoff.
MKIs are half a generation ahead of pakee F16s .

I can't believe this is what we are discussing in brf .

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 06 May 2025 04:09

J-11 is su-27 knockoff, not j-10

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 06 May 2025 04:42

Sorry j10 is lavi knockoff which is in turn f16 knockoff..

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 06 May 2025 08:51

i wish we can rush some astra-2 and astra3. Astra 2 has been approved for production, maybe they can be ramped up. Also astra-3 missile captive flight trial has been successfully conducted. Maybe they can be paired with astra1/2 header and 2 way data link and a dozen produced in a week. Will be nasty surprise for the tsp planes.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 06 May 2025 09:33

sohamn wrote: ↑06 May 2025 00:40 ...
IAF flankers are sort of equivalent to F-16s in combat capability, and Rafales are sort of equal to J10s. Pakistan is superior in terms of awacs. I dont think IAF can dominate Pak airspace as others might think...

It's not just Gen which matters. Training, tactics, strategy all are important factors.

2 Su-30 MKIs held off 8 F16s

A 3rd gen IAF MiG-21 downed a 4th gen PAF F-16

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 06 May 2025 23:02

Comparing MKI to F-16s and Rafale to J-10A is incorrect.

What IAF lacks and I would blame MoD & babus equally are:

1) Super Sukhoi should have been pursued on war footing and by now first squadron should have been inducted. (Its been 6 years since Feb 19 Balakot)
2) Same for Astra Mk1, Astra Mk2
3) Procuring more (6-8) AWACS -- EL-2090 GaN based AESA from IAI (by now we would have had 2-3 of them)
4) Ordering more (30-40) Rafale F4.2 standard

But I feel sad that a two cents worth terrorist country with is on borderline economic failure is able to even look at us. Our force structure (in terms of platforms & armanents & infrastructure) should have been so overwhelming for them to fear us.

We should be planning against China and Pakistan should be a squatted like a fly.

What is getting more apparent is we don't have luxury of time anymore. China the only major supplier to Pakistan armed forces is still lacking in maturity (when compared to West or even Russia) but that won't be case for long term.

I don't know what HAL/ADA can do about fastening the speed of locally produced military platforms especially for IAF and but MoD needs to take a clear stance and strike a balance between imports, domestic platforms and indigenization of imports and MoF has to support the effort.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 07 May 2025 02:03

Manish_P wrote: ↑06 May 2025 09:33
sohamn wrote: ↑06 May 2025 00:40 ...
IAF flankers are sort of equivalent to F-16s in combat capability, and Rafales are sort of equal to J10s. Pakistan is superior in terms of awacs. I dont think IAF can dominate Pak airspace as others might think...
It's not just Gen which matters. Training, tactics, strategy all are important factors.

2 Su-30 MKIs held off 8 F16s

A 3rd gen IAF MiG-21 downed a 4th gen PAF F-16

If you think our enemy is not practising tactics or they dont have a strategy then you are mistaken. We shouldn't underestimate PAF, they have done a great job of staying away from perfect and keeping their airforce potent with a country that's 10 times smaller in GDP and almost bankrupt.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 07 May 2025 02:08

Sumeet wrote: ↑06 May 2025 23:02 Comparing MKI to F-16s and Rafale to J-10A is incorrect.

What IAF lacks and I would blame MoD & babus equally are:

1) Super Sukhoi should have been pursued on war footing and by now first squadron should have been inducted. (Its been 6 years since Feb 19 Balakot)
2) Same for Astra Mk1, Astra Mk2
3) Procuring more (6-8) AWACS -- EL-2090 GaN based AESA from IAI (by now we would have had 2-3 of them)
4) Ordering more (30-40) Rafale F4.2 standard

But I feel sad that a two cents worth terrorist country with is on borderline economic failure is able to even look at us. Our force structure (in terms of platforms & armanents & infrastructure) should have been so overwhelming for them to fear us.

We should be planning against China and Pakistan should be a squatted like a fly.

What is getting more apparent is we don't have luxury of time anymore. China the only major supplier to Pakistan armed forces is still lacking in maturity (when compared to West or even Russia) but that won't be case for long term.

I don't know what HAL/ADA can do about fastening the speed of locally produced military platforms especially for IAF and but MoD needs to take a clear stance and strike a balance between imports, domestic platforms and indigenization of imports and MoF has to support the effort.

You are absolutely right, I am angry at our state where a barely surviving country can hope to even sustain a short war with India. If we would have had 126 Rafales then by this time the attack would have been over. But now, with severely depleted squadron strength we have limited options that we can exercise.

I hope we can use this opportunity to get our SU-30s upgraded, quickly conclude in MRFA and perhaps get couple of squadrons of F35.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 07 May 2025 02:11

HAL is stuck in a time warp and doesn't seem to be able to deliver at all. GE handed over the first engine in march, but even after 1.5 months we haven't seen the MK1A fly. Unless we privatize HAL and/or get another development partner in the mix I dont think our squadron situation will improve.

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 May 2025 03:02

^^^
There were already 7 x Mk1A ready at the last count.

HAL is supposed to deliver 11 x Mk1A this year. With 3 production lines (8+8+8) and a fourth planned, soon we will loose count of how many deliveries are occurring.

Main thing now is to sign up on the follow-on 97 Mk1A as soon as possible to allow the negotiations for more F-404 engines and all the other domestic/international suppliers/manufacturers to scale up as early as possible and without gaps in production.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 07 May 2025 03:03

I think private players are also being romped for 97

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 07 May 2025 08:09

sohamn wrote: ↑07 May 2025 02:03
Manish_P wrote: ↑06 May 2025 09:33

It's not just Gen which matters. Training, tactics, strategy all are important factors.

2 Su-30 MKIs held off 8 F16s

A 3rd gen IAF MiG-21 downed a 4th gen PAF F-16

If you think our enemy is not practising tactics or they dont have a strategy then you are mistaken. We shouldn't underestimate PAF, they have done a great job of staying away from perfect and keeping their airforce potent with a country that's 10 times smaller in GDP and almost bankrupt.

I am not under-estimating them.... nor am i over-estimating them.

I merely stated facts as opposed to 'Their aircraft X is nearly equivalent of our aircraft Y'

TVenky · Post by **TVenky** » 07 May 2025 14:22

srai wrote: ↑07 May 2025 03:02 ^^^
Main thing now is to sign up on the follow-on 97 Mk1A as soon as possible to allow the negotiations for more F-404 engines and all the other domestic/international suppliers/manufacturers to scale up as early as possible and without gaps in production.

How will US react to Tejas downing its F16s ?..
How about its impact on further sale of F16s to other countries ?.
What will be the impact on future deliveries of F404 as well as F414.?.

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 May 2025 10:43

Let’s discuss what’s next for IAF.

more force multipliers - AWACS, AAR, ELINT, Jamming
fast-track upgrades - Su-30MKI, Rafale, Tejas
volume orders LR stand-off munitions - BVR, ASM, PGM
fast-track indigenous PGMs integration and certification
multi-year large volume orders for indigenous maal
fast-track any attrition replacements & follow-on orders
counter-drone defense at mass scale
SSBM air defense capability coverage
expansion of spares availability

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 11 May 2025 11:24

^^^Saar
Top of the list should be R&D and investment for our own engines be it for Jets, Whirlybird or Marine Period!!

prashantsharma · Post by **prashantsharma** » 11 May 2025 12:55

Also add improving the protection for aircraft on ground. About 2/3rds of the Su fleet is still sitting exposed on ground without proper HAS with blast protection doors, which will also be useful for keeping out drones. The majority of current blast pens btw dont have doors, some are open on both sides. There are enough pics of these on BR photo galleries. We were lucky this time with no losses, but lets not rely entirely on that.
The 2/3rds fig is reliable and based on imagery as on date.
We need to pull our socks up. I can site examples where construction of blast pens has been abandoned half way through or it took 4-5 years to complete them. All publicly available imagery.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 11 May 2025 21:59

Indeed. This is unpardonable, considering we are in Phase 2 of the MAFI project (Modernization of Air Field Infrastructure)

If we don't have proper HAS for our entire fleet, this MAFI is like a "mafi" (apology) of a project!

In fact, we should go a few steps further and have shelters underground & within hillsides. Too much chalta-hai attitude

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 12 May 2025 12:54

We need
Prachands with Dhruvastra/Helina, etc
Ghataks - in large numbers
SWIFT - in production. category of its own.
drone - all types. in millions.
L-70s, Schilka, S23 upgrades in numbers 1000s.
DEW/anti-drone guns in large numbers - 10000+

williams · Post by **williams** » 12 May 2025 13:25

Prem Kumar wrote: ↑11 May 2025 21:59 Indeed. This is unpardonable, considering we are in Phase 2 of the MAFI project (Modernization of Air Field Infrastructure)

If we don't have proper HAS for our entire fleet, this MAFI is like a "mafi" (apology) of a project!

In fact, we should go a few steps further and have shelters underground & within hillsides. Too much chalta-hai attitude

Defence budget need an increase. We are penny pinching too much. Now that our forces have proven what they can do with limited resources, an increase at this time should be a gift for their performance. I will admit, I am a bit surprised at quality of Paki air bases. Granted, they probably got it built using war on terror funds generously donated by the fools in the US. We need to show some money for our forces.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 12 May 2025 16:57

There may be a need for more BVR missiles if the speculation surrounding the enemies's strategy of disregarding normal tactics and lobbing pl-15s at extreme edge of the envelope is proven true. We may have to do the same in response. A few thousand Astras will do the job.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 May 2025 17:34

^^^
IAF was only ordering in small batches of 200 Astra Mk1 in each batch.

Now let’s see if IAF orders 1000 in each batch size

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 May 2025 17:44

Airfield neutralization:

Need to expedite SAAW (100km range) certification and production in mass quantities to be deployed in mass against airfield targets.

Same goes for 1000kg LRGB Gaurav (100km range) for bunker busting.

NGARM Mk1/2/3 (150-400km+) in mass quantities to take out Air defense radars and surveillance equipment.

Also, speed up these integrations with Tejas.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 12 May 2025 19:31

*Deleted*

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 12 May 2025 22:40

I think next priority items are already being discussed (if you read the news carefully)
1. Sats, 50 of them being fast tracked - why for ISR and comms, we need redundancy - I would say send self destruct sats as well and shadow important enemy sats
2. Tejas IOC and FOC is being upgraded with 'intelligence' - my read that is more about being fully integrated, they either fire missile and gets guided by other sources - be it another fighter, awacs or ground based radar Or it's radar provide further ISR.Since we fully own the plane, we can make it a node in the network, more than just a stand alone fighter. It will be like force multiplier, the 31 of these planes will act more like 200 planes, mostly by enabling the whole 'system'. Perhaps it can do long range ground strike as well
3. Brahmos factory in Lucknow. I wished NG comes fast, that will make Brahmos NG available to some 600 planes instead of 40-80 odd MKIs
My wish list (the one that can be done in next 6 months)
1) fast track SFDR/Astra-3. It's separation trial with MKI is complete. While we run through 5000 moon/mars test, lets for now go with limited envelope shooting, put Astra -2 seeker and 2 way link (while we work in parallel at better seeker and link suited for this 300 KM range weapon). Engage private player as well and procure in number
2) For Astra Mk2, procure in number. Engage both private and public PSU
3) RUDRAm 1/2/3, GAURAV, GOWTHAM - qualify all planes, procure in huuuuuge numbers
4) L60, zu GUNS, Upgrade all
5) Maybe new type of fragmenting ammunition for the above guns that is of low lethality (but enough for mass of 200 gm drones) but very wide volume coverage. One of these can saturate with very tiny light fragments in 100s of meter radius, one of them should be able to take out a full mass attack. With these guns firing hundreds should stop any group of drones
6)SMART 155 GUIDED round
7) If Kusha (desi S400) can be rushed, why not

ground based SFDR SAM with booster integrated to the net? Range 300-400 km?
9) Some limited SU30MKI upgrade(not the Super Sukhoi, that will take time and should run in parallel) - Full integrated so that it can fire and missile gets guided or someone else fires (including ground based asset/other fighters) and it guides. Similarly apart from Brahmas (please qualify more MKIs) get few other 300-500 km range A to G minition qualified and procure in number.
.....

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 12 May 2025 23:13

Fanne,

I will just add following (not in 6 months) in next couple of years:

Add 5-7 AWACS (EL 2090) and as many Netra as we can add. We need a fleet of 20.

Add procurement of NGARM, SAAW (and in a later block increase their range to more stand off distances)

Procurement of escort jamming equipment

SATCOM installation on our planes

Brahmos NG

Adding IIR Seeker to Astra Mk2 with two way link

~ 50 more Rafale F4.2

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 12 May 2025 23:42

srai wrote: ↑12 May 2025 17:44 Airfield neutralization:

Need to expedite SAAW (100km range) certification and production in mass quantities to be deployed in mass against airfield targets.

Same goes for 1000kg LRGB Gaurav (100km range) for bunker busting.

NGARM Mk1/2/3 (150-400km+) in mass quantities to take out Air defense radars and surveillance equipment.

Also, speed up these integrations with Tejas.

will need some innovative munitions that stay inert till someone comes to repair the runways !!.. need to teach the paki donkeys a few things

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 13 May 2025 01:44

It’s called a mine no? Runway repair will usually include ordinance disposal units.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 13 May 2025 07:41

About hundred MOABs to wipe up the cantonments preferably bombarded at Day Time. The blasts and Mushroom clouds would be etched forever in Pakistani People mind.

The only trouble is to identify a vehicle if delivery which is cheap and expendable

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 May 2025 15:51

With BVR ranges increasing, even 100km for glide munitions are not enough.

Minimum “break-the-door” range needs to be at least 250km. Suppress airfields first and foremost from long range. Then followed up with numerous hard hitting glide munitions.

Rudram-2 series looks promising. Expedite its R&D and certifications. Integrate with all IAF plane types. Order in mass.

https://swarajyamag.com/amp/story/defen ... s-in-tibet

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 May 2025 16:08

^^^
Then go for 600km range Rudram-3 for targeting deep bases housing assets like AWACS, AAR and other force multipliers.

Most optimal destruction of airborne assets is on the ground.

https://defence.in/threads/drdo-plans-s ... e_vignette

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 14 May 2025 01:49

Sumeet wrote: ↑12 May 2025 23:13 Fanne,

Add 5-7 AWACS (EL 2090) and as many Netra as we can add. We need a fleet of 20.

50 more Rafale F4.2[/list]

20 AWACS might be an overkill. Also, as good as Rafales's are, we need Tejas MK2 pronto.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 14 May 2025 02:00

Jay wrote: ↑14 May 2025 01:49
Sumeet wrote: ↑12 May 2025 23:13 Fanne,

Add 5-7 AWACS (EL 2090) and as many Netra as we can add. We need a fleet of 20.

50 more Rafale F4.2[/list]
20 AWACS might be an overkill. Also, as good as Rafales's are, we need Tejas MK2 pronto.

Given how many fronts we could be fighting at and our landmass area we need those many.

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 May 2025 04:05

Brahmos capable Su-30MKI should also be increased from 40 aircraft to at least 120.

Continue to tinker with its range increases > 450km > 600km …

R&D new types of warheads: anti-runway, bunker-busting, anti-radiation, airfield mine droplets, etc

Order mass quantities of Brahmos ALCM. 200 units not enough.

Best aerial munition available right away!

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 14 May 2025 06:37

For me, Pralay and Nirbhay will be the top priorities for acquisition. more affordable than Brahmos, which we anyway are producing in large quantities. We have tested more Brahmos (~100) than there are cruise missiles in paki inventory

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 14 May 2025 08:30

I think one project that needs to be super sped up is SFDR - ASTRA MK3

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 May 2025 10:52

For AAM, large quantities of whichever variants ready:

110km+ Astra Mk1
150km+ Astra Mk2
200km+ Astra Mk3

Astra Mk1 is ready; continue to induct in thousands over 10-years … continue its integration fleet wide

Astra Mk2 is almost ready … IOC induct in 100s and when FOC induct in thousands over 10-years in parallel lines to Astra Mk1; integration fleet wide

Astra Mk3 still in R&D … IOC induct in 100s and when FOC induct in thousands over 10-years in parallel lines to Astra Mk1 and Astra Mk2; integration fleet wide

Continuously perform MLU to improve performance.

In the long run, these can be used in SAM roles as well.

There is room for all three variants to coexist within IAF. No need to be “stingy” in usage when there are plenty in stocks and production is ongoing.