Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[vera_k]

Says additional funding has been made available.

Singh announces increased funding, accelerating Kaveri jet engine development

[vera_k]

Some precise numbers quoted in this article. Along with a calculation of how this 78.4KN thrust is better performance than GE F404 can deliver in Indian conditions.

Brahmos afterburner aims to supercharge kaveri engine to 78.4KN of thrust

[Yagnasri]

Once we certify Kaveri, it will be better to make a large number, i.e. 100s of LCA MK1AS with that engine to be used for all sorts of things. As things stand today, Mk1a has some 5t+ load capacity and good range, AESA radar etc which is more than okay to take on PAF. It will have a very low radar signature as well.

We can also design a twin-engine aircraft around Kaveri with all the 21st-century bells and whistles to make it an advanced 4+++ gen fighter.

[NRao]

Once we certify Kaveri, ..........

How long would that be in your estimation?

[Yagnasri]

Considering we do not have any testing infrastructure as of now, five years. But, I think, the dry variant will be in use before that in the Ghatak.

[williams]

Considering we do not have any testing infrastructure as of now, five years. But, I think, the dry variant will be in use before that in the Ghatak.

This might work for the current Kaveri variant. But I doubt it will ever power a Tejas 1/1A AC.

For Tejas 1/1A type AC, the first order of business is building the necessary ground testing infrastructure, acquiring the airborne platform for in-flight testing, and setting up the instrumentation on the acquired platform. That itself will take 2-3 years in a sarkari project.

Testing does not always have a deterministic timeline. You will find issues along the way and spend time fixing them. You can do many things in parallel, but then you will still face the combined probabilities problem (the probability of two tasks meeting the planned deadline has a diminishing effect).

If you are doing this for the first time, establishing and perfecting an FEA model will take another couple of years. And finally, the elephant in the room is mastering the required metallurgical processes that Matya Ji has explained. Will Western powers part with their metallurgy knowledge and provide us with their FEA model for good money? I doubt it. What are we trying to test and certify if those processes are not mastered?

So I am happy DRDO and DM are ready to invest money in engine development. But this is not like building roads or starting a real estate project. It cannot happen overnight, and there are no fixed timelines. The only good news is that plenty of STEM human resources and money are available.

However, we have a very picky user, the IAF, and rightly so. Satisfying them requires moving a few more mountains.

My gut says it will take over 10 years to certify the first engine for a Tejas 1/1A type AC and another few years to establish an ecosystem for a different AC. Mind you, this is an ecosystem. We will need engines of various sizes and parameters once the first one gets certified. DRDO, with private partners, will be able to do this. But we must stay the course for the next 10 years and back them up with the needed financial resources.

[Yagnasri]

I think this short war with pakis changed lot of things and the non coming of GE404s as per the agreed timelines also will help to push things. I think far more work was already done on Kaveri than we all think. So the timelines may be shorter.

[Vayutuvan]

If you are doing this for the first time, establishing and perfecting an FEA model will take another couple of years.

The hardest part in coming up with a good FEA model is to come up with good material models for the product at hand.

I agree we have the STEM human resources. But they were (still are?) mostly in the IITs and universities.

[SRajesh]

Rakeshji and Maityaji
Any truth to the reports of PMO in discussion or having agreed to a deal with RR for 4.5 Billion worth for full TOT and IP rights for engines to be developed in India for AMCA??

[Dexter]

A wild idea. Gurus may gyanify

Few posts back in a YT video of an engine conference, one Mr. Anshuman Tripathi raised a point that we need to hire costly talent and the government pay commission salary would not do. Here is the link
https://youtu.be/kOzGgwQ_9sU?si=tLWXTZnzc_vvm9rC

How true is this ?

If true can we have a fund raised from public by a reputed NPO which then hires and leases resources to GTRE for practically free.

With the recent environment fund raising may be viable. What kind of funds are needed here ?

I am just talking about human resources which PSU can't pay due to technical glitches

[williams]

A wild idea. Gurus may gyanify

Few posts back in a YT video of an engine conference, one Mr. Anshuman Tripathi raised a point that we need to hire costly talent and the government pay commission salary would not do. Here is the link
https://youtu.be/kOzGgwQ_9sU?si=tLWXTZnzc_vvm9rC

How true is this ?

If true can we have a fund raised from public by a reputed NPO which then hires and leases resources to GTRE for practically free.

With the recent environment fund raising may be viable. What kind of funds are needed here ?

I am just talking about human resources which PSU can't pay due to technical glitches

While the 7th pay commission should be good enough to attract young talent, it requires some good mgmt/HR practices to nurture and retain them for extended periods. We are hugely mistaken if we think we have problems with scientific talent in the country. Our problem is providing opportunities for research, development, and training to our vast scientific talent. Hence, some of these talents leave the country for better opportunities.

Now, we may encounter a situation where a lack of expertise exists in certain areas. We are now talking about deep knowledge in a field with many years of experience outside India. Those people are well taken care of in their organizations and will not be willing to move to India due to many other circumstances. However, retired pros may be willing to do some short-term consulting if you hire them on a contract basis. For that, we need to allocate some money as a consulting budget within projects.

Ultimately, the problem is not about talent but putting some focus. It is about setting up a national mission to make India aatmanirbhar in building aero-engines of various classes. We need to pull academia, research institutions (ISRO, DRDO, etc.), private and public players on a mission with a reasonable budget and a feedback (PMO monitoring) mechanism.

[vera_k]

It is 2025 which is when the unmanned CAV with Kaveri dry engine prototype is expected to roll out.
Has there been news about the Kaveri dry engine being integrated with the prototype?

[konaseema]

Our government should create a program to engage / hire those Indian origin scientists and engineers who have vast experience in the R&D & manufacturing of Turbofan engines for a period of 4-5 years as consultants to the Kaveri program with the expectation that they would review / enhance what GTRE has built.

[williams]

Our government should create a program to engage / hire those Indian origin scientists and engineers who have vast experience in the R&D & manufacturing of Turbofan engines for a period of 4-5 years as consultants to the Kaveri program with the expectation that they would review / enhance what GTRE has built.

That will be a very attractive option. They will get a chance to visit their homeland while making some great contribution with their expertise.

[ernest]

It is 2025 which is when the unmanned CAV with Kaveri dry engine prototype is expected to roll out.
Has there been news about the Kaveri dry engine being integrated with the prototype?

In previous posts on the forum, it has been mentioned that the project ( full scale stealth UCAV ) is not yet sanctioned.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1925140902840033645 ---> Can India build fighter jet engines? It's time for a national call now | Venkat Raju

This question echoes frequently in defence corridors: Can India truly build engines that can power our military jet programmes? And more critically -- why haven’t we yet taken a decisive national call on this?

Despite decades of effort, the Kaveri engine remains a work in progress. Its timeline continues to stretch, while the nation waits. Meanwhile, the recent delays in Tejas Mk1A deliveries -- owing to supply chain disruptions at GE’s facility -- have once again spotlighted the strategic vulnerability of depending on a foreign OEM for the heart of a fighter aircraft. As India seeks lasting solutions, here’s some vital food for thought -- straight from a veteran of the Indian aerospace and defence ecosystem. Mr V Venkat Raju, Managing Director of VEM Technologies, Hyderabad has been at the forefront of supporting India’s A&D landscape for over four decades. Listen closely to what he shared during the recent 'The Week Defence Conclave.' His words reflect both the readiness of Indian industry and the urgency of vision and policy clarity at the national level.

* We have gained significant expertise in system engineering, integration, and process automation. Our understanding of materials, experience in building test equipment, and the availability of highly skilled engineers have matured. The Indian industry is now ready.

* We have achieved high levels of efficiency in design and analytical tools, which enable faster simulation of engine performance. Precision manufacturing capabilities are well established.

* When it comes to special components or equipment, Indian industry is fully prepared. We also have considerable exposure to handling fuel systems and have grown strong in the area of reliability.

* Our experience in producing reliable parts has matured into full system-level capabilities. This means engine development can now be managed by private industry.

* Moreover, we have the capacity to manufacture engines at scale. However, we may not be able to handle some aspects of testing independently -- particularly high-altitude testing.

* Strategically, it is not viable to depend on foreign OEMs for aircraft engine development. At a tactical level, having some foreign engines is acceptable. But realistically, no foreign OEM is likely to provide true technology transfer or a genuine co-development opportunity with Indian entities.

* As for timelines, we must acknowledge that engine development cannot happen overnight. Testing alone will take at least 5 years. If we begin now, following the Indian approach, it will take approximately 15 years to fully develop and operationalize a fighter engine.

* An estimated ₹12,000 to ₹15,000 crore will be needed for development and mass production. Hence, decisive action at the apex policy level is critical.

[Jay]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1925140902840033645 --->

This question echoes frequently in defence corridors: Can India truly build engines that can power our military jet programmes? And more critically -- why haven’t we yet taken a decisive national call on this?

* We have gained significant expertise in system engineering, integration, and process automation. Our understanding of materials, experience in building test equipment, and the availability of highly skilled engineers have matured. The Indian industry is now ready.

Maybe it is time to close the book on Kaveri. It is becoming clearer by the day that we may have reached the end of road w.r.t Kaveri project as in it's tech progress, operational gains, program management, and future path. It might not be a bad idea to transfer the lessons learned to a different entity with a significant private sector participation & lead, and get the ball rolling from there, so to speak.

[sanjayc]

Baba Kalyani said in a recent TV show that private players in India have the capacity to make a jet engine. For this, Govt. needs to declare it a national mission, provide funds, and make a consortium of 4-5 private companies. (Will be great if GTRE / ISRO / IITs can be a part of this consortium). Private players are not bound by govt. regulations - they will hire best consultants from around the world.

Why GTRE is not tapping into the expertise of companies like L&T, Bharat Forge, etc. and why it is slogging alone with its unionized workforce for such a critical product of national importance -- this is beyond me.

[williams]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1925140902840033645 --->

* As for timelines, we must acknowledge that engine development cannot happen overnight. Testing alone will take at least 5 years. If we begin now, following the Indian approach, it will take approximately 15 years to fully develop and operationalize a fighter engine.

* An estimated ₹12,000 to ₹15,000 crore will be needed for development and mass production. Hence, decisive action at the apex policy level is critical.

1.7 billion USD for 15 years is a reasonable estimate. We need to fuse academia, research institutions, public sector, private sector, IAF and IN into a consortium reporting directly to the PMO on a monthly basis. Dr Kalam-ji's framework of identifying gaps and getting help on those specific technologies can be taken up by the academia. If a specific foreign consultant or consulting firm can fill that gap in specific time, we can pay for it and speed up the time line. Until then let us do the tactical dancing and get the US engines.

[drnayar]

Baba kalyani said in a recent TV show that private players in India have the capacity to make a jet engine. For this, Govt. needs to declare it a national mission, provide funds, and make a consortium of 4-5 private companies. (Will be great if GTRE / ISRO / IITs can be a part of this consortium). Private players are not bound by govt. regulations - they will hire best consultants from around the world.

Why GTRE is not tapping into the expertise of companies like L&T, Bharat Forge, etc. and why it it slogging alone with its unionized workforce for such a critical product of national importance -- this is beyond me.

Pretty sure bharat forge will get in the best consultants in the business and build a full scale jet engine in 5 years time..in 10 years they could get the production line started.. !!.. we will only wonder why no one thought of it before.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1925762951706714133 ---> I thought Indian defence discussions, after some initial immaturity would move beyond the, “will GE share us its core engine technology?” , “will Dassault share source codes for its jet?” “Will Naval Group provide its sub data tables?” And now these post Balakot and post Sindhoor, defence aficionados have also picked this up. When did getting access to a foreign developed tech become an entitlement, Just because one pays money? You think R&D and IP creation is a simple process of pouring money and getting results? It takes creating an ecosystem. Identifying talents bringing them together trying a 100 & 1000 things and their failures persisting through and getting the elusive tech. In this, they’ve spent their political capital and their nation’s resources away from stuff.

While we spend on public welfare and later Come up with few Billion$$ and expect those nations to give it away for money? “We are a huge market, they will have to acquiesce” is a weird entitlement. This is not just with the armed forces but DRDO too. While trying to sell a proprietary code for commercial use, as a sense of entitlement they’ll ask underlying equations which are trade secrets. I mean “LOL” are we idiots? These efforts are the sum of generations of research built on top of each other. A previous research would contribute to “what to do” or “what not to do” in this research. R&D in Rafale came out of R&D in Mirages. It was not 0 —> 1.

It is a kind of a weird combo of national laziness and a sense of entitlement that we do not want to do these hard steps to develop own ecosystem but expect other nations to give it for money. Get off your high horse. If we are worth the civilizational state and regional power we claim we are then damn well invest in national R&D. No civilization/nation state is entitled to greatness. It has to work to earn that technological dominance and ownership to build it across national power. Ask our leaders, not the foreign OEMs.

[maitya]

https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1925762951706714133 ---> I thought Indian defence discussions, after some initial immaturity would move beyond the, “will GE share us its core engine technology?” , “will Dassault share source codes for its jet?” “Will Naval Group provide its sub data tables?” And now these post Balakot and post Sindhoor, defence aficionados have also picked this up. When did getting access to a foreign developed tech become an entitlement, Just because one pays money?
...

Absolutely true - this concept of "... being a big market ..." so IP/know-why sharing will "automatically" happen etc, is worst kind of wishful thinking/day-dreaming.
It's not the so-called market-size that normally determines such tech sharing, but the threat of (losing tech-relevance in face of) indigenously/ independently developing the said technology, is the determining factor.

For example, in the F414 ToAsT deal (under negotiation) the Turbine Tech is being firmly with-held (as expected) ... question is, what would have happened, if we already had demonstrated a 1550-80deg C TeT capable HPT/LPT Turbine via, say, the Kaveri program.
Exact same reason why Safran et all is playing hard-ball wrt IP-sharing for the 5th Gen TF (for AMCA) - and GE et all outright refusal to "share IP" (know-how based Lic Mfg tech is kosher though).
Because the former is confident of developing the required 5th Gen TF tech, given their mastery/confidence of the base 4-4.5Gen TF tech - but lacks the required funding to do so.
The later, of course, having already developed that tech, sees no incentive (and, no "... big market ..." etc is not alluring enough) to share anything, except maybe the Lic Mfg tech.
Similarly, wonder what is the "influence" of success/impending-success of Project Kusha, that has suddenly prompted all these talk of "joint-dev" of S-500 etc.

... and there are many such examples.

Counter analogy/example of course is, Russia's refusal to allow indigenously sourced raw-material (and also indigenous turbo-machinery tech) based production of the entire AL-31FPs - despite our indigenous TF tech is atleast 1-1.5Gen ahead of what got used in AL-31FP (except maybe the TV section) - aaaall-weather-friendship etc notwithstanding!!

[Cybaru]

This has been said many times by almost all posters here.

Until we spin up and dump money in our own engine venture, nothing will happen.

Why are we even asking for hot core section. Move on from that. No one will give, no matter how many billions we part away with..

Our aim should be to build the 85% of remaining engine, get really good at that and eventually add our own hot section and ideate from there.

Get what we have in a product and gain experience with it. GOI needs to dump more money in the helicopter engines too and get the HAL - HTFE engines across the finish line.

[vera_k]

Looks like #FundKaveriEngine is trending on X because someone spammed the PM's social media accounts with it. Did GE delay delivery of engines again?

[vijayk]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1927078471072632928

120 kN desi engine set to fuel #AMCA dream

Funding was never the true hurdle for indigenous programmes -- it was the absence of a unified will among stakeholders.
The technological gap in developing a next-generation fighter engine has been meticulously analysed.
Consultations with major global engine OEMs have been underway for some time -- on a war footing.
A renewed strategic thrust is now driving the engine mission, with all key domestic partners: GTRE, IAF, CEMILAC and academia onboard.
A proposal for a 120 kN engine to power the #AMCA, in collaboration with private firms, has reached the pre-sanction stage.
Senior-most government stakeholders are actively monitoring progress.
This could emerge as one of India’s most prestigious and high-value military aerospace programmes to date.
The project sanction file may soon reach a top office for critical review and final approval.
GTRE's expertise cannot be overlooked and they will be a key player in this new-look prog.

https://x.com/writetake/status/1927079734233473419

A strategic matter. Highly sensitive. No further details can be shared at this stage. Let us wait and watch the developments unfold. Let us place our trust in the process & in the people driving it.

[Rakesh]

^^^^ I really hope the above happens.

Funding was never the true hurdle for indigenous programmes -- it was the absence of a unified will among stakeholders.

I wonder who these stakeholders were, who did not want India to develop her own turbofan.

India's greatest enemies live within her borders.

[vijayk]

^^^^ I really hope the above happens.

Funding was never the true hurdle for indigenous programmes -- it was the absence of a unified will among stakeholders.

I wonder who these stakeholders were, who did not want India to develop her own turbofan.

India's greatest enemies live within her borders.

really sad

[Yagnasri]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDQpTx4 ... 2w&index=2

Looks like Kaveri is on X trending No. 1

[Avinandan]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1927078471072632928

120 kN desi engine set to fuel #AMCA dream
A proposal for a 120 kN engine to power the #AMCA, in collaboration with private firms, has reached the pre-sanction stage.

What would be the realistic Thrust to Weight Ratio for this 120 Kn engine?
Kaveri achieved ~7.0, does expecting 9.0 ratio is a fair ask and feasible for AMCA Mk1?

[bala]

India needs its own testing facilities for aircraft engines. ISRO has such facilities for rockets in Mahendragiri. Babus have been stalling on funding such testing facilities since it costs a lot of money.

For Modiji, the simple formula for all defence, ISRO, BARC funding: 10 x R&D funds over the remaining term. These funds are well worth the investment. We are #4 in nominal GDP, very soon going to be #3. We all know how piss poor China maal is in defence sector from actual usage and China is #2.

[williams]

India needs its own testing facilities for aircraft engines. ISRO has such facilities for rockets in Mahendragiri. Babus have been stalling on funding such testing facilities since it costs a lot of money.

For Modiji, the simple formula for all defence, ISRO, BARC funding: 10 x R&D funds over the remaining term. These funds are well worth the investment. We are #4 in nominal GDP, very soon going to be #3. We all know how piss poor China maal is in defence sector from actual usage and China is #2.

They have that facility built in Rajanukunte, KA (https://eparlib.nic.in/bitstream/123456 ... /36494.pdf). This is for all the different types of ground testing. The missing piece in the puzzle is the hight altitude test bed. As mentioned above, it was never about funding but national will.

[maitya]

I think, in this hullaballoo, people are missing a very fundamental ask ... there's a need of funding for ALL of the following, concurrently:

1) Flight-Test/Certification of original-K9 OR KDE+A/B (4 Gen TF)
2) Kaveri-II (4.5Gen TF - 90KN) D&D
3) AMCAs 120KN 5th Gen TF D&D, in partnership with a foreign OEM partnership
4) Indigenous AMCA 120KN 4/4.5 Gen TF D&D*
(4th is the hedge for 3rd, wrt inevitable ToT hanky-panky by the OEM partner)

And as I've said innumerable times in the past, so repeating one more time won't hurt, enough TF tech-base exists indigenously for taking up 1, 2 and 4 with considerable confidence.

Ofcourse, all these won't be cheap ... but it was never supposed to be.

===========================================================================================================
* Dropping 4th, in hope of 3rd being successful, will be disastrous, and after an decade we will be still struggling wrt developing indigenous 5th Gen TF tech-base - and an indigenous F414 alternative can get easily derived from the 4th program.

[vera_k]

Two more I can think of -

a. Adaptation of 1 or more for naval propulsion
b. Larger engine for transport, AWACS, tanker applicatios

[bala]

This is for all the different types of ground testing. The missing piece in the puzzle is the hight altitude test bed. As mentioned above, it was never about funding but national will.

Agreed, I meant all testing ground and in the air too. For high altitude testing we can retrofit a UCAV (two engine variety) don't need manned pilot, everything is software driven. For ground testing, GE for example has other stuff like environmental testing, hurling stuff at the engine to see how rugged it is. Dont know how advanced India's ground testing.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1927373713994891713 ---> Kaveri engine to power Indian Unmanned Combat Aircraft. Will be one of the deadliest in the world. Will be tested on combat aircraft too.

[pravula]

This is for all the different types of ground testing. The missing piece in the puzzle is the hight altitude test bed. As mentioned above, it was never about funding but national will.

Agreed, I meant all testing ground and in the air too. For high altitude testing we can retrofit a UCAV (two engine variety) don't need manned pilot, everything is software driven. For ground testing, GE for example has other stuff like environmental testing, hurling stuff at the engine to see how rugged it is. Dont know how advanced India's ground testing.

Don't need a custom UCAV, just buy those hardly used 747s and slap it on. Here's one with less than 50 hrs that was scrapped for parts...https://aeropeep.com/747-8-with-under-5 ... for-parts/

[fanne]

I don't think the hurdle is getting an used 747 or 310 or 320. The hurdle is , we don't have the expertise (i guess no one has other than the OEM) to modify it to put kaveri engine in it with all its instrumentation and I bet the OEM is not playing ball.

[williams]

I don't think the hurdle is getting an used 747 or 310 or 320. The hurdle is , we don't have the expertise (i guess no one has other than the OEM) to modify it to put kaveri engine in it with all its instrumentation and I bet the OEM is not playing ball.

There is work involved but our guys can and will figure it out. I mean we have built test beds before and Tajas program itself required a lot of instrumentation. It is just going to take some time. TF tech development has become a strategic program now and we need to tread carefully with OEM shenanigans

[vera_k]

I suspect there's not much happening with regards to TF development in India that needs validation via a flying test bed. Because if there was, some business would convert one of these old planes to a FTB and rent out to whoever needs it in India. Maybe things will change with additional funding for TF development.

The PRC is held up as a comparison for the need for a FTB, but the PRC has multiple TF programs running from small low bypass engines for military use to large high bypass ones for airliner type aircraft.

[williams]

I suspect there's not much happening with regards to TF development in India that needs validation via a flying test bed. Because if there was, some business would convert one of these old planes to a FTB and rent out to whoever needs it in India. Maybe things will change with additional funding for TF development.

The PRC is held up as a comparison for the need for a FTB, but the PRC has multiple TF programs running from small low bypass engines for military use to large high bypass ones for airliner type aircraft.

It is expensive but good investment for the future.