Operation Sindoor - Bharat Strikes Back: Jai Hind!

[S_Madhukar]

Did the CDS give any exclusive interviews to DD or desi media first ? If not then why Doomberg and if yes why didn’t MEA brief him first how to go about it .
When we had the good DGMO why send scholar soldier to the hyenas !!

[V_Raman]

Such bad communication from CDS!!! What is not important - why is important? WTF - how did this guy become the CDS!!!!

[Deans]

I'm trying to figure out why CDS spoke to the media - giving him and the govt the benefit of doubt.

The Pak CDS equivalent was also at the meet. So were 4 star generals from important countries. All of them, by now, know who lost what.
Rather than avoid the media and hand the floor unopposed to the Pak general, he spoke. Imagine the media coverage if he didn't
- `India's CDS refused to take questions/ admit the truth, while Pak was open'. Or a NATO general saying we lost aircraft.

I think in the context of the event's participants, CDS had to come across as a professional soldier, looking at losses the way any commander
would. He's saying to the world `we knew there will be losses, we accepted that as part of the mission and learnt from mistakes, making the
mission and its aftermath a success'. I have not heard the Pak general's interview but in the soundbyte he was unprofessional, to say the least
- 'next time the escalation will be much more' is the last thing the International community wants to hear.
CDS was talking to his peers. His Pak counterpart, to his countrymen.

[Deans]

On the alternatives to 7th May that armchair critics have been suggesting,

A Scalp missile fired from a `safe' distance of 150km from the target, travelling at Mach 0.8 will take almost 10 mins to reach the target.
That is enough time for Pak to calculate the likely target, empty it and attempt to intercept the missile.
Russia shoots down or spoofs around 80% of Storm shadow/Scalp missiles fired by Ukraine, because Ukraine fires from extreme range,
unwilling to risk the loss of aircraft. We accepted the trade-off of probably losing X aircraft for Y terrorists.
War is a series of such cold blooded calculations.

SEAD not done on 7th May: It's not as if you can press a button and lo and behold SEAD is done. The moment you attempt it, it is an act of war
and the enemy knows you are going to try something. We did SEAD on the 8th and 9th, but even then, none of our aircraft could risk crossing
the border. We were only able to degrade Pak air defences enough to get some missiles and drones to hit fixed locations.
Russia has not been able to supress Ukrainian air defences after 3 years. Pak, trying saturation attacks on a local area, was similarly unable
to achieve SEAD.

[Agasthi]

No true Indian gives a flying frack about how many IAF or PAF birds went down. We care about how many missions were a success within their predicted loss ratio. As far as I can see, GOI, IAF and IA seem to be happy about it.

Pravula ji, this is where we are making a mistake and are underestimating Pakis and their handlers. They are targeting the lower common denominator on both sides of the border and across the globe. Before the May 12th speech of our PM, a lot of people in my social network were a bit confused. The key things that they were aware of:

• 1. We bombed the terrorist bases courtesy Indian media - The clear pics were critical courtesy indian MSM and social media
  
  2. Saw videos of Pak bases being bombed courtesy the Pak awam - no effort on GoI part but due to social media. I will further say that these videos were a game changer in shaping our janata's perception
  
  3. we lost some aircraft courtesy social media - no effort to counter it. This became the enemies main line of argument, that he was fkd up didn't matter he was out to shape up the perception battle in our minds.

The lowest common denominator on our side does not follow military to even realise the kind of monumental victory realised this year. Most of them can't place Delhi on a map even if their life depended on it. The PM in his May 12th speech spoke to that denominator. He is still but one man, the state apparatus can't be content about their achievement and not explain it to the masses or create further confusion in family/community WA groups

Rather than avoid the media and hand the floor unopposed to the Pak general, he spoke. Imagine the media coverage if he didn't
- `India's CDS refused to take questions/ admit the truth, while Pak was open'.

Deans ji, Did that media engagement make it any better? They are already hostile, we all know that, why engage them? Let these western outlets get their sound bytes from ANI or PTI. The CDS could have spoken to them in Singapore while pointedly ignoring the western media. ANI/PTI are also english speaking. The CDS is a professional and a commander that he truly was but the likes of bloomberg were there for a whole different game. The Western media's biases are so blatant that they are willing to overlook all the Pakis lies. I mean their FM says the evidence is all over social media to a dumbstruck western journo and they still try to give them credibility. They got what they wanted. Baiting Indians is now a large money spinning industry.

Contrast the same with Paki equivalent in his interview with Reuters. A monologue bristling with nuclear blackmail. No Q's about did they lose a AWACS or how many aircraft or men they lost. Why was no monologue offered to our CDS. Our CDS was saying we were far from going nuclear and the Paki was rational. Gen Mirza was far from being rational.

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/pak ... 025-05-30/

It was a set up!

The chinese for example skipped it and sent some lower level delegation. They didn't even bother.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/live-blo ... nse-summit

I believe we have arrived as a great power without our government mandarins and our people realising it, possibly. The western/chinese attempts to cover up and bat for the Pakis speaks volumes how desperately they want to keep the equivalence. We need to let our media set the terms of engagement with western media (like Palki Sharma who has credibility amongst western masses). Let NYT or WP quote ANI or PTI in their news feed if they want our CDS's sound bytes.

[Jayram]

Ironically this CDS was the DGMO during operation Balakot - Looks like lessons were not learnt or if learnt not applied in this day and age.
Really disappointing to see this lack of ability of the our military leaders to attempt to shape the narrative to our benefit.
Admitting to tactical errors while the battle is still fresh and on? Frustrating!! And admitting to losses when the enemy is looking for any shot in the arm and giving it to them? Cant be so naive! There is a whole another battle still to be fought on IWT and POK negotiations. We just gave the other side a straw to hold on to. Really poured a whole lot of Indian media effort down the drain with his dumb statements!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anil_Chauhan#
From wiki
In January 2018, he was appointed Director General Military Operations (DGMO), during the course of which he oversaw the execution of two key military operations: the 2019 Balakot airstrike against Pakistan and Operation Sunrise - a joint India-Myanmar counterinsurgency offensive.[12]

[Anujan]

A nice interview (In Tamil) by Dr. Sivadhanu Pillai, Father of Brahmos Missile, from Dr. Abdul Kalam's legacy. He discusses lot of technical info about Brahmos , its development history and his motivation to create something World-class.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdZHSCViXPA
A gold mine of interview, building the Brahmos against MTCR(Missile Technology Control Regime), fully indigenous, identifying 200 critical technologies for the development, setting the strategies to build all these as a program manager. Negotiating and Building JV with Russia as a equal partner, these lessons can be used for AMCA engine development.

x-posting from op sindoor thread

Really great interview, I have listed a few things that I remember

About how he came to work for ISRO and how Brahmos came to be

• Dr Pillai wanted to join tamil nadu electricity board after college, a chance encounter with Sarabhai made him choose ISRO instead.
• He talks about how Dr Kalam always wanted India to be first. Dr Kalam talked about how we launched rockets, were seventh in the world, built nukes and were sixth in the world. Dr Kalam wanted everyone to think big
• Gulf war woke up DRDO scientists towards air defence (patriot missiles) and cruise missiles. While building cruise missiles, they wanted something that would make India the first in the world.
• Russia had a supersonic engine, and India had mastered guidance and control based on their experience building prithvi missiles, so Idea was to combine the two to make a supersonic cruise missile
• India didnt have the money to fund such a joint venture, so Dr Pillar made over 100 visits to Russia to negotiate payment in kind (tea, textiles etc), Russians were reluctant initially and finally agreed.
• He talks about how long the approval phase is, DRDO scientists need to write up a big document outlining what they want to do, then a science committee approves it, then finance ministry needs to approve it, then (he mentiones a few more commitees) then it goes to finance secretary, finance minister and after that goes to cabinet committee on security. Dr Kalam and Dr Pillai felt this process was too cumbersome (he made a funny statement about how they did not want to get approvals for a supersonic missile at subsonic speed)
• They used a special rule, whereby the PM alone has the power to greenlight some projects, PVNR was very supportive, approved it. MMS (the then finance minister) also approved it the next day. He says the project got approved in 2 days instead of years.
• The proposal was a JV between India and Russia with 51% - 49% split, but Dr Pillai and Dr Kalam wanted 50.5% and 49.5%, that way Brahmos will be a private company and not a PSU. PVNR was supportive
• He says that this decision was the key, they didnt have to answer to CAG, or face numerous inquiries, audits and interference from IAS babus, keep the project secret and could solely focus on the work.
• Talks about meticulous project planning, how they indentified 200 critical technologies, came with a strategy of each of them (collaborative development with industry, sourcing from industry, funding development etc)
• They built and flew the missile in 3 years, start to finish

About the missile itself

• Weight is 3 tonnes, range was 300kms. After India signed MTCR, range was increased in software to 600kms.
• He talks about the differences between anti ship (radar seeker, with INS) and land attack (INS, and satellite position controlled)
• During development phase, DRDO tried to track it using radar, but couldnt.
• Russians were angry that India repurposed what was essentially a ship-to-ship missile into a anti-ship, land attack, air launched, land to ship etc missiles.
• Dr Pillai wanted to build Brahmos into air launched version. Russia demanded $250M and complete workshare, Dr Pillai decided India should do it, to build knowhow and flexibility in design. Russians got angry, Medvedev (Russian president) complained to MMS about Dr Pillai, and threatened to hold up Sukhoi spares. MMS asked Dr Pillai to cooperate with the Russians, for which Dr Pillai refused. A committee was formed to inquire into this matter, but Dr Pillai convinced Shiv Shankar Menon and Air Chief Marshal Browne that doing it in India was important. Then MMS was supportive, and Brahmos aerospace built the air launched version.
• Dr Pillai says "russians did a lot of things to thwart this"
• Russians withheld Sukhoi codes and knowhow needed for integration, Brahmos aerospace reverse engineerd what they needed.
• Brahmos NG that DRDO is building will be a true 300km missile (not a 600km missiled dressed up as a 300km), the weight will be massively reduced, so a Sukhoi can carry 3, and it can be carried by Tejas as well.
• Talks about a Mach 5 hypersonic version and a Mach 7 hypersonic version in the future.

About Op sindoor

• Dr Pillai points out that in 1971, each ship could carry 2 Styx missiles, now a ship can carry 16 better missiles with more kinetic energy, so image the destruction we can cause in their harbor and ships
• He says he is impressed by the way the armed forces employed brahmos, doing target selection, simultaneous attacks, and attack planning for maximum effect. Praised how the armed forces employed the weapon effectively and points out that weapons are just one part of war fighting.
• Talks about how Brahmos aerospace is improving "coordination, planning/integration" even more among Brahmos missile units.

About his time with ISRO and working with Dr Kalam, later part was shocking

• Recounts the well known incident with SLV3 launch failure, where Dhawan went in front of the press and took full responsibility, and how after SLV3 launch succeded, Dhawan asked Kalam to talk to the press and claim credit.
• Talks about PVNR and Vajpayee, how they were nationalists and how they were on the same page vis a vis India's defense
• Talks about how Dr Kalam was ready to retire at 60, Cho Ramaswamy (of Tuglag magazine fame) wanted Dr Kalam to be the vice chancellor of Madras university, which Dr Kalam agreed to. Dr Pillai who headed personnel at DRDO at that time, without telling Dr Kalam, Obtained an extention for Dr Kalam. Dr Kalam was upsent, and did not want political favors. Dr Pillai says how this turned out to be important for Nuke test because the extension made Dr Kalam scientific advisor to PM.
• Apparently Vajpayee wanted to make Dr Kalam into a cabinet minister, but Dr Kalam (and people like Dr Pillai) were afraid that politics would just ruin Dr Kalam. PVNR had told Vajpayee that "materials are ready, you should go ahead". and ABV wanted to test Nukes, Dr Kalam said instead of a cabinet minister he would like to finish the test as a scientific advisor. ABV ready agreed and said tests were more important than cabinet position
  The shocking part
• He goes on to say how politics ruins important people. Under MMS tenure, the cabinet had decided to dismiss bihar assembly, Dr Kalam who was president at that time, Dr Pillai etc were traveling internationally. Dr Pillai had advised Dr Kalam to go back to India and decide after consulting lawyers. Instead MMS kept calling, told Dr Kalam he was waiting in PM's office at 4am and was under intense pressure from above (!! ) and finally convinced Dr Kalam to agree.
• The decision was struck down by the supreme court as unconsitutional and Dr Kalam wrote a resignation letter. MMS realized that if Kalam resigned, since it was the cabinet who made the decision, MMS and the cabinet would need to resign. Persuaded Dr Kalam otherwise
• Then the parliament passed the "office of profit" law. With exceptions to Sonia gandhi and Somnath chatterjee. Again MMS kept calling and talking about "pressure from above" (!! ) Dr Kalam was careful this time, returned the bill and asked for a bill which treated everyone uniformly. However the parliament passed it again forcing him to sign it. Sonia gandhi became angry with Dr Kalam
• Dr Kalam said he was ready to serve a second term if there is unanimous agreement with everyone
• When time came to elect Dr Kalam as president for the second term, MMS called up Dr Kalam and said Sonia gandhi did not support his candidacy and congress party cannot support Dr Kalam for a second term
• BJP was strongly in favor of Dr Kalam and encourged him to contest
• Chidambaram called up Dr Pillai and told him that this would be an ugly fight, with congress party fighting tooth and nail and told him to advice Dr Kalam to withdraw and not get dragged through the mud
• Dr Kalam withdrew
  Dr Pillai laments how India does not respect and celebrate great people that even the world respects and celebrates. Also mentioned the names of 2 people (I forget) from atomic energy commission who went into politcs and had their reputation ruined. Says "politics is not for people like us"

[SRajesh]

Looks like lessons were not learnt or if learnt not applied in this day and age. Cant be so naive! statements!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anil_Chauhan#
[12]

Jayaramji
Question to be asked:
1. Who approved the trip?? (meaning GOI gave permission Why???)
2. What was the briefing before the trip??
3. What instructions given on 'Red Lines' not be crossed??
Majority of Army men have little Media Interactions on a everyday basis. Hence need a bit of guidance on media discussions especially for the High Ranking Serving Officers.
Also when going abroad especially these officers should have a pre departure discussions with the FO head honchos perticularly when attending so called enemy chat groups/TV talk shows or conferences.
I am sure there must have a pre tour discussion but what 'Red Lines' not to cross were recorded we will never know.
I am pretty sure there will be debrief when the General comes back

[bala]

I think it is safe for Army etc to not interact with media especially international media. Leave it to the diplomats. Pak land generals are really diplomats who got to their post high up in the chain. The other thing that bugs me about CDS Chauhan is he got into war technicalities like rational decision making, tactics, etc. All of these are beyond the international audience and it won't register one bit. I also don't know the extent of Army vs Airforce not in synch with each other. When you attack a terror base just after an exercise things have to be done with care and full awareness i.e. AD has to pick up all missile attack. On 6th India was doing an exercise and declared no fly zone. The Pak chaps also sent their AWACs and fighter planes up on the air thinking they would be attacked. So they were fully expecting kinetics from India. On the 7th India unleashed the destruction on madrassas and hideouts of terrorists. Pak may have let loose a few missiles in response. No clear evidence whether India used SEAD before attacking terror camps, DEAD was not used. Whether the missiles of Pak damaged India aircrafts is not conclusive, since there is no evidence of any clear debris anywhere to back it up. India is claiming all pilots are safe. Somethings just don't add up. This will be an eternal mystery unless there is a report by India on all losses, which may never occur.

[Vayutuvan]

I strongly suspect his understanding of 'down' is different from the interviewer's 'down'.

When I hear the word down in any discussion about fighter planes or AF ops, scenes from "Black Hawk Down" replay in mind.

[S_Madhukar]

I think the top brass/babus should go to the nearest top IT / MNC and get some media/PR training not some IFS/MEA "course"
The private sector handles comms a lot better.

That's one reason some online folks were angry with Misri briefings being short on 2nd day although I understand the situation better now.

But when your country is in conflict and borders are not just shelled but dealing with missiles and drones (no war '71,'99 included saw such weapons) your comms should be top notch. Even worse we did have a N overhang but this country with 2 fronts has been very casual all along as if a N strike will never happen, sab changa si! And have civil defence drills in all states, not unlike the Cold War drills in US! This is the lethargy set in the system bcoz of cross border terror that civilians/soldiers die anyway so what? One shudders to think how we survived all along.

Comms are also an indication of clarity, confidence and ability - as sad as it may sound. GoI better decide if they want Soviet approach of absolute silence or US approach but don't dance somewhere in between.

[Y I Patel]

There may be more to it, but at a minimum this is what CDS did: he robbed Pakistan of their prime reason of declaring this as their victory.

HIs message is simple: yes there were losses because of tactical errors, but we learned from them and applied our learnings with great success on May 9/10

If the losses were from tactical errors that were later rectified, they were NOT because of:
a/ superior Chinese weapons (denies space to China shills)
b/superior Paki tactics that would indicate that they can dominate IAF (denies space to Field Marshal)
c/ inferiority/lack of resources on IAF side (denies salesmen of foreign weapon systems)

[williams]

There may be more to it, but at a minimum this is what CDS did: he robbed Pakistan of their prime reason of declaring this as their victory.

HIs message is simple: yes there were losses because of tactical errors, but we learned from them and applied our learnings with great success on May 9/10

If the losses were from tactical errors that were later rectified, they were NOT because of:
a/ superior Chinese weapons (denies space to China shills)
b/superior Paki tactics that would indicate that they can dominate IAF (denies space to Field Marshal)
c/ inferiority/lack of resources on IAF side (denies salesmen of foreign weapon systems)

^^^ Experts and people who have sense will get it. Western Media, twitter warriors and politicians with an agenda will act as though they don\t get it. Jihadi minded people with madarasa education will believe in the later. Some of the folks here want GoI to step up the game fight the later crowd better and I see clearly we are lacking in that sort of skills today. It is a lesson learnt, we need to train our top brass and babus some better PR and soft skills. We have enough people to help them with that. These were fluff skills before, but today it does provide us some tangible benefits.

[ramana]

Folks, CDS said what he said in the interests of the country. Case closed.
Not worth going into the details.
Bottom line: no six planes shot down.
Down means unavailable.
No Rafale was shot down.
9 terrorist markaz hit badly
11 Fizzleya facilities hit: 8 airbases and 3 radar sites
Fizzleya fizzled and became a penguin in 23 minutes.
Eventually, people will compare it to the Israeli Six-Day War
Air defences worked against missiles, rockets, and drones.
In two years, Sandeep Unnnithan etc will write best sellers.
On the diplomatic front, a great achievement is the seven MP teams that went out.
Shows the unity of the political parties (except for underachievers).
This will have a lasting impact on the 0.5 front.
Naxalism is almost ended.

[Roop]

Folks, CDS said what he said in the interests of the country. Case closed.
Not worth going into the details.
Bottom line: ...

Thank you for that positive (and factual) summary. Breath of fresh air. For a moment there, reading all the wailing and moaning on the forum, I thought India had lost the war.

This was a spectacular win for India. Your comparison with the Six-Day war of 1967 is fully justified. And we achieved what we did in just over half that time (3.5 days).

The only negative I will concede is a sometimes-inept communication style from GoI spokespeople to the public (and therefore to the world). That needs to be worked on on an urgent basis. But I stress I do not include the DGMO briefings in that negative assessment -- all three of them were excellent.

[pravula]

Pravula ji, this is where we are making a mistake and are underestimating Pakis and their handlers. They are targeting the lower common denominator on both sides of the border and across the globe.

Across the globe doesn't matter. As I said, no true Indian will complain, a pseudo-Indian will never be convinced, non-Indian, doesn't play a role

Before the May 12th speech of our PM, a lot of people in my social network were a bit confused. The key things that they were aware of:

• 1. We bombed the terrorist bases courtesy Indian media - The clear pics were critical courtesy indian MSM and social media
  
  2. Saw videos of Pak bases being bombed courtesy the Pak awam - no effort on GoI part but due to social media. I will further say that these videos were a game changer in shaping our janata's perception
  
  3. we lost some aircraft courtesy social media - no effort to counter it. This became the enemies main line of argument, that he was fkd up didn't matter he was out to shape up the perception battle in our minds.

The lowest common denominator on our side does not follow military to even realise the kind of monumental victory realised this year. Most of them can't place Delhi on a map even if their life depended on it. The PM in his May 12th speech spoke to that denominator. He is still but one man, the state apparatus can't be content about their achievement and not explain it to the masses or create further confusion in family/community WA groups

Rather than avoid the media and hand the floor unopposed to the Pak general, he spoke. Imagine the media coverage if he didn't
- `India's CDS refused to take questions/ admit the truth, while Pak was open'.

We cannot expect regular folks to be as invested in things a typical BRF member is. As an example, most people in India are decently aware of motorcycle performance. But when I start talking about why sometimes a triple is better than a I4 and why V4s are not as common, why I prefer a big bore single on our streets, I can see my cousins eyeballs glaze and roll into their heads. You are trying to force people to care as much as you are on topics that does not interest them. Not gonna happen...

[ramana]

Transcript of CDS Gen Chauhan's speech at Shangri-La Dialogue.

https://www.iiss.org/globalassets/media ... ivered.pdf

[ramana]

Folks, CDS said what he said in the interests of the country. Case closed.
Not worth going into the details.
Bottom line: ...

Thank you for that positive (and factual) summary. Breath of fresh air. For a moment there, reading all the wailing and moaning on the forum, I thought India had lost the war.

This was a spectacular win for India. Your comparison with the Six-Day war of 1967 is fully justified. And we achieved what we did in just over half that time (3.5 days).

The only negative I will concede is a sometimes-inept communication style from GoI spokespeople to the public (and therefore to the world). That needs to be worked on on an urgent basis. But I stress I do not include the DGMO briefings in that negative assessment -- all three of them were excellent.

Roop, Thank you. If even one person got cheerful, it has served its purpose.
As for communications, yes verbal could be improved, but make no mistake, the message delivered via 11 BrahmosA was very loud and clear.
One secondary aspect is Dassault's reluctance to share Rafale source codes will be moot, as it shows the Su-30MKI platform had better efficacy.
NAVIC rocks.

[Jayram]

Chatgpt summary of Shiv Arror's take on CDS interview. Echoing what I/we have been saying in the forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5abvmyeO4GU

10 Major Takeaways
1. Acknowledging Aircraft Losses
CDS admitted India lost aircraft during Operation Synindur. Losses are part of high-intensity missions; hiding them plays into adversarial narratives.
Personally I dont agree on this except if India is also exposing Pak losses which our CDS did not do !!

2. Why Speak to Foreign Media First?
Criticism over CDS choosing foreign press for his first interview. Strategic goals aside, democratic accountability should start at home.
3 “Tactical Mistakes” Admission Questioned
Calling out tactical errors too early could undermine strategic wins. Public narrative should first highlight success.
4. “Rational” Warfare Framing Challenged
Questioning the use of “rational” to describe both sides, especially considering Pakistan's initial aggressive actions.
5. Parliament Should’ve Been Briefed First
Emphasis on importance of legislative oversight and domestic communication before international briefings.
6. Media’s Role in Poor Narrative Control
Indian media's chaotic, sensationalist coverage possibly pushed CDS to foreign media. However, fixing media should be internal.
7. Enemy Losses Not Highlighted Enough
India should have led with confirmed enemy damages—like 9 Pakistani aircraft destroyed—to counter propaganda.
Lesson from Balakot Ignored. Agreed. Especially hard to swallow given this CDS was DGMO at the very time Balakot took place and we all know how that went !!
8. Controlling the narrative is key. Despite operational success, India's messaging again failed to shape global perception.
9. Confused Messaging Post-Interview
Statements followed by clarifications signal poor communication strategy. The military's clarity should match political messaging.
10. Narrative Battle Still Ongoing
Pakistan hasn't won the perception war, but India must proactively own and tell its story, given the operation’s massive achievements.
Finally Shiv confirms there were 9 losses on the Pak side and who knows how many high value ones. GOI reasons for not revealing this while admitting our own is a mystery at this point!

[Aditya_V]

Guys tonight I hope our forces are on alert, with the 3 chiefs visiting Ahmedabad for IPL final to be honored, given TSP experience they will definitely try something tonight.

[Amber G.]

Pakistan has officially listed 8 targets hit by the IAF that even India has not acknowledged so far—revealing that the scale & depth of Op Sindoor was FAR BIGGER than even India has officially claimed.

[drnayar]

So why doesn't India go ahead and be open about its losses ? Avoid unnecessary speculations and flights of fancy from the flying pigs .. open ended sentences like we had some losses does not help.

If I speculate and say one sukhoi came down , why is it a bad thing ?!! When paki losses are several magnitudes more ?

[SivaR]

So why doesn't India go ahead and be open about its losses ? Avoid unnecessary speculations and flights of fancy from the flying pigs .. open ended sentences like we had some losses does not help.

If I speculate and say one sukhoi came down , why is it a bad thing ?!! When paki losses are several magnitudes more ?

Apart from the static hits which Pakistan could not hide, they never revealed their flying object losses. Same with India, this will reveal which defence/attack system worked at what efficiency against the attack. This will give the enemy crucial operational info, to fine tune their systems. Let them keep guessing or let us confuse them (Our CDS just did that). Unlike their loss, our losses are luckily not visible openly. The Media Rona-Dhona/ chest thumping will continue, but this is Real war business, no one reveals their cards.

[Dilbu]

I can understand IAF not revealing our losses but what is stopping us from revealing all targets destroyed in TSP. Whether they acknowledge their losses is up to them but shouldn’t we make all the damage done to TSP public and let them try to prove it did not happen?

[drnayar]

I can understand IAF not revealing our losses but what is stopping us from revealing all targets destroyed in TSP. Whether they acknowledge their losses is up to them but shouldn’t we make all the damage done to TSP public and let them try to prove it did not happen?

Well obfuscation is name of the game when taking out nuclear sites, we don't tell but we know they know what we can do. It's just bad press if a nuclear fallout happens, as they say in covert ops "we were never there" , just some earthquakes .

[vonkabra]

Such bad communication from CDS!!! What is not important - why is important? WTF - how did this guy become the CDS!!!!

Personally, I would much rather have a CDS who can win wars than one who is good at giving interviews.

[Luxtor]

This tme around....why are we even losing any fighters to pukis in air combat, let alone Rafale(s)? Didn't we learn anything at all from the post Ballakot air battle and the well known fact that the PAF posseses F-16s with AIM-120 missiles? With our SU-30MKI's lack of long range AA missiles in the same class as the AIM-120, why was it decided to engage the PAF in air to air combat in the opening stage of the operation? We could've started the action by decimating puki air bases and air defence systems with Brahmos strikes and just baited the puki F-16s, J-10s & J-17s with our fighters and launched long range volleys of AA missiles from Rafales, S-400s and Akash batteries. It is very hard to hear the CDS say that we learned our lessons and quickly corrected our mistakes. This time around is not the time to learn any lessons. Lessons should've been learned from what happened during Ballokot and not repeat the same mistakes that we did in that engagement. In that fight we were just happy that our SU-30MKIs were able to dodge the puki AIM-120s and didn't get shot down. Maybe the same this time too.Our MKIs were supposed to be air dominance fighters that were supposed to take the fight to the enemy and dominate the battlespace, not just be happy to dodge enemy missiles and just survive. If we have observed what the US and Western militaries do in general in modern times is to carry out SEAD operations on the enemy with cruise missiles, stealth aircraft and make it safe for conventional aircraft to follow through with the bulk of air to ground payloads and engage any remaining enemy fighters in the air or on the ground from a position of relative invulnerability. Why were our fighters sent in at the beginning when the enemy was fully alert and expecting our fighters?

Same thing happened in Kargil. There we sent in so many of our soldiers to their deaths before learning our lesson and then make corrections and do it right the second time. Each and every war we first have to learn a lesson all over again before doing it right, afterwards.

Sorry for the rant, forgive me. Just feeling frustrated. We have the best fighting men, weapons and technology but our military leadership drops the ball every time initially as they consistently seem to under estimate our enemy and their capabilities of which we should be aware of intimately, only to circle back, change tactics and do well after the first round of losses. This time extremely well on the second try and made the pukis cry for a ceasefire.

[gakakkad]

^ who said anything about air to air loss or Rafale .

[Aditya_V]

Luxtor you are making a lot of conclusions, we really don't have the full details, so far all I have seen is we have seen the crash sites of SAAB 2000, JF-17, 1 Mirage 3/5, Banshees, Heron, Numerous Bayrakatars, PAF airfield etc.

We have inflicted big casualties, the Pakis are yet to probably figure out what they hit and how we have been also able to hit them, so at this stage we either seem to expect to try some more mischief and we have planes yet- so operation Sindoor is going on, psyops is also going on.

Once the forces feel there is some conclusion they will reveal more.

[kancha]

Shared some thoughts on the hue and cry over the CDS' statement on aircraft losses.

Blog Link
Twitter Link

At the outset, I offer my heartiest congratulations to Paakis for their spectacular victory in Kargil where they brought down three IAF aircraft and for the even more FANTASTIC victory of 1971 wherein they shot down anywhere between 45 – 65 IAF aircraft! There’s a video as well!

Moving on, never mind the death and destruction visited by the IAF and IA on Bhikharistan without any pity or remorse over the course of those 88 hours!

Never mind the utterly destroyed and humbled terror headquarters at Muridke and Bahawalpur!

Never mind the dead Squadron Leader Usman Yousuf of PAF who was actually killed in a road accident instead of the Brahmos Strike at Bholari where he was working on a Saab Erieye AEW&C platform of the PAF.

Never mind the explosions at Kirana Hill because IAF never knew about it and absolutely NEVER bombed it!

Never mind the fact that during Op Sindoor, IAF addressed dozens of targets as far as 300km inside Pakistan with possibly a hundred or so IAF aircraft in the air together at the same time while overwhelming PAF and PA air defences!

Never mind the fact that .. well .. never mind .. please keep minding all facts because the IAF lost some aircraft in doing so!

Also, never mind the fact that the CDS himself mentioned that lessons were learnt and IAF didn’t suffer a scratch thereafter!

Many years ago, during my Facebook days, I got an opportunity to be a ‘content writer’ for some months for a popular defence/geostrategy page with nearly a million followers. What I realized was that many of us have a habit of looking for a dark cloud behind every silver lining!

Just like we did when we overtook Japan to become the world’s fourth largest economy & idiots started breaking their bangles crying that our per capita GDP was still lower than Japan! Of course it was and it will continue to be for a long time! But our GDP still surpassed Japan and that too would remain a fact!

Bottomline is that what we achieved in those 88 or so hours in Operation Sindoor is something that all leading militaries of the world will be studying for a long long time. As far as Paakis and some folks within our own borders go, they can keep laughing/crying about IAF losses!

Their latest Field Marshal can keep orgasming over the beautiful photograph of the Chinese military exercise presented by him to that joker appointed as the Prime Minister of Bhikharistan by himself some years ago!

A military that has lost each & every war that it has ever fought, cannot help but resort to lies and misinformation and in this case, bombast .. to keep itself relevant amongst its own people. Hence Paakis will keep on crowing about downed IAF aircraft while staying mum over the spanking they received.

However, what gets me ‘amused’ is the sheer R@ndi Rona in some sections of my own people at loss of a few airframes! India can easily afford to make up for the loss of all airframes lost during Op Sindoor!

But as far as Bhikharistan goes .. well .. they will have to eat grass!

Mind you, we achieved all this without the Indian Navy having to fire even a single round!

Just imagine the next round when Karachi and Ormara and all such get bombed from the seas!

I don’t say it .. my Raksha Mantri said so himself!

To conclude, I would say that I can live my life while accepting the loss of a couple of airframes, especially when the pilots are all fine!

As for those who are still beating their chests .. well .. Peace Be Upon You!

As far as Paakis go, it warms my heart to see them go ecstatic in their celebrations!

They did so in 1965 as well. Unfortunately, they lost half their country a mere six years later!

However, in their own eyes, they still DID NOT lose in 1971!
Don’t believe me?
Here is what a young child of Bhikharistan is taught in her school in Pakistan Studies .. she believes that Pakistan GIFTED independence to Bangladesh!
(Unable to add video to this post. Here's the link)

[skumar]

This tme around....why are we even losing any fighters to pukis in air combat, let alone Rafale(s)? ...

Bharat clearly said that the goals of the operation was to destroy terrorist targets and not target enemy AD. As a result of this mission objective, there was a conscious decision to NOT destroy enemy AD (SEAD/DEAD) in order to preserve the surprise element. It is the remarkable discipline and commitment of the IAF that 100+ pilots went in with this handicap and achieved mission objectives with the risks it entailed.

Bharat clearly did not want to climb that step in the escalation ladder.

Now we have made clear that any further attack will be construed as an act of war, which means that the enemy defence forces will be targeted in hte first step, The ball is in Pakistan's court now. Unlike Pak's hollow threat wrt IWT, they will be taking our threat seriously but will anyway act in some way to save H&D of the aand forces.

There are some things to criticize in the execution of the operation, particularly the communication and the diplomatic handling, but this is not it.

[A_Gupta]

And no pilots died. Way way more important than hardware.

[arshyam]

We didn't reveal own and enemy losses beyond a point so as to keep a tight control on the escalation ladder. Official confirmation about the extent of downed PAF assets would make them do stupid things, and we didn't want to spend further cycles once we achieved our objectives, which was to give a strong and resonating slap to those in power over there, with the world watching. It also helps us retain the advantage of plausible deniability, where strikes like Kirana happened, but we didn't officially acknowledge it, so no one can cry "nuke flashpoint", blah blah. Lastly, sharing more details runs the risk of revealing tactics which no one likes to do since that will help the enemy prepare for next time. For example, how did we actually strike Kirana, if at all we did?

Similarly, officially acknowledging own losses would a) reveal our defensive tactics, which is also not in our best interests, b) retain some mystery about what worked for the enemy and what didn't. Remember, Op Sindoor is still on-going, so we should maintain some level of op-sec, and maybe more will be revealed in the fullness of time. Most importantly, in our current political context, revealing these details would put a lot of pressure on GoI to retaliate stronger, which is actually a greater issue in open democracies like ours than dictatorships like China and banana republics like Pakistan. If we end up retaliating, we'll lose control of the escalation ladder, and if we don't, the govt will be put on a political back foot, which won't be good for national morale (imagine a certain opposition shehzaada shouting about it from the rooftops). Then there is the sad possibility of some on our side wanting us to reveal details that would benefit the enemy.

These are just some of my thoughts on why things transpired the way they did. But I, for one, am comfortable with the level of detail provided by GoI, and actually think the messaging has been disciplined and to the point. If we are worried about world media's perceptions, that will never be addressed to our satisfaction given the interests ranged against us and our growth (this post shared by chetak saar on the politics thread brilliantly articulates the why: viewtopic.php?p=2650653#p2650653), so I won't get into self-flagellation over it.

[NRao]

In May 2025, India launched a series of precision strikes that shook the military foundation of Pakistan. Secret underground bunkers—known as HDBTs—were targeted with chilling accuracy. Entire command centers disappeared. Personnel vaporized. And the world watched in stunned silence.

This is the untold story of Operation Sindoor.

[Deans]

I'm repeating previous posts, but I want to put some alternate scenarios, dreamt up by keyboard warriors to rest.

The International community probably gave us a tacit go ahead to hit terror camps (only) to retaliate for Pahalgam and not provoke a wider war.
We did not spend months sending dossiers proving it was Pak.
There also wasn't anything in the International media, let alone govt's about stopping water to Pak etc (which arguably violates UN thingys).
Nor did the Muslim world complain about destruction of a mosque - not long ago we had to humiliate ourselves asking Muslim countries for
forgiveness because of what Nupur Sharma said.

The moment you start SEAD, it is an act of war (if you jam the signals of a passenger jet as it is trying to land, it can crash). It also tells the
enemy you are going to do something. All SEAD has countermeasures. Russia has been unable to do SEAD for 3 year in Ukraine. When we did do it
on 8-9 May, we still did not degrade Pak air defences enough to send any of our aircraft over the border. We did just enough to enable missiles
and drones to hit stationary targets.

on 7th May if we had fire longer range missiles from a `safe' distance, it would have reduced the probability of hitting anything. A Scalp missile fired from 150km, travelling at Mach 0.8, takes 10 mins to reach the target. That's enough time to calculate the likely target, clear the area and engage the missile. Russia intercepted 80% of Scalp/Storm shadow, because Ukraine fired at extreme range, unwilling to risk their aircraft. We accepted the
higher risk of losing an aircraft, for the higher probability of killing terrorists. War consists of such cold blooded calculations, which the men risking their lives make.

[bala]

Superb YT find (the untold story of Operation Sindoor) NRao ji!

[Hriday]

All SEAD has countermeasures. Russia has been unable to do SEAD for 3 year in Ukraine. When we did do it on 8-9 May, we still did not degrade Pak air defences enough to send any of our aircraft over the border. We did just enough to enable missiles and drones to hit stationary targets.

on 7th May if we had fire longer range missiles from a `safe' distance, it would have reduced the probability of hitting anything. A Scalp missile fired from 150km, travelling at Mach 0.8, takes 10 mins to reach the target. That's enough time to calculate the likely target, clear the area and engage the missile. Russia intercepted 80% of Scalp/Storm shadow, because Ukraine fired at extreme range, unwilling to risk their aircraft. We accepted the
higher risk of losing an aircraft, for the higher probability of killing terrorists. War consists of such cold blooded calculations, which the men risking their lives make.

Deans ji, can you make a detailed post on this subject of SEAD in the context of Indian and Russian capability?
We have Brahmos which is said to be unstoppable by DRDO and Brahmos Co CEOs. And we are on the verge of induction of Rudram-1 dual pulse anti radiation missile. How it will fare against Pakistan?

In Russian case is it because NATO AWACS gives a warning from standoff distance and SAM systems launch a last minute surprise shots against aircrafts?

[Manish_P]

...
Now we have made clear that any further attack will be construed as an act of war, which means that the enemy defence forces will be targeted in hte first step, ...

Most important point

We have climbed up the step of the escalation ladder are going to be perched there firmly.

Pakis being pakis will do something...maybe not this year, maybe not next year, but in the near future they will.

Our missile regiments / drone squadrons will open the batting that time.

(letting the navy doing the opening seems to be a psy-ops feint by our canny Raksha Mantri)

[Deans]

All SEAD has countermeasures. Russia has been unable to do SEAD for 3 year in Ukraine. When we did do it on 8-9 May, we still did not degrade Pak air defences enough to send any of our aircraft over the border. We did just enough to enable missiles and drones to hit stationary targets.

on 7th May if we had fire longer range missiles from a `safe' distance, it would have reduced the probability of hitting anything. A Scalp missile fired from 150km, travelling at Mach 0.8, takes 10 mins to reach the target. That's enough time to calculate the likely target, clear the area and engage the missile. Russia intercepted 80% of Scalp/Storm shadow, because Ukraine fired at extreme range, unwilling to risk their aircraft. We accepted the
higher risk of losing an aircraft, for the higher probability of killing terrorists. War consists of such cold blooded calculations, which the men risking their lives make.

Deans ji, can you make a detailed post on this subject of SEAD in the context of Indian and Russian capability?
We have Brahmos which is said to be unstoppable by DRDO and Brahmos Co CEOs. And we are on the verge of induction of Rudram-1 dual pulse anti radiation missile. How it will fare against Pakistan?

In Russian case is it because NATO AWACS gives a warning from standoff distance and SAM systems launch a last minute surprise shots against aircrafts?

I don't have technical detail but in brief:

NATO has neglected SEAD because all their air strikes since gulf war 1 have been against peasants with AK-47's or conscripts with obsolete
Soviet weapons (Iraq, Serbia. Libya).
The Russians have limited AWAC coverage, but presumably have human and satellite intel that can tell them when aircraft have taken off.
Ukraine gets the same info on Russian aircraft.

Russia has Mig 31 / SU-30 to plug gaps in radar coverage, that can detect incoming aircraft. All Scalp launches have been well within
Ukraine controlled airspace, yet some aircraft have been lost to long range AAM.

[drnayar]

deleted.