Emergency Response System

[Kuttan]

My apologies to Ramanujan, Somnath etc. for ruining a perfectly reasonable thread about countering nuclear attack with a lot of negativism. Very disappointed that I did not get flamed out for that! For us cynics, being ignored is far worse than getting nuked <P>IMO, the real need is for a functioning Emergency Response System: its as bad to die under a train wreck, mudslide or earthquake after 96 hours of non-rescue, as to die in a nuclear attack. Far too many Indians die each year, needlessly, in disasters which are both avoidable and survivable. Here I go: <P>In the next 20 years, there HAS to be major highway construction in India, if we are to advance past Somalia. A major divided highway is, say 30 meters wide, and Indian limited access highways will need "access roads" in parallel for the slower traffic: that's a LOT of precious land to be taken over by the government. And a lot of concrete to pour. I propose that we dig large facilities below the highway bed before laying the concrete highways, and use these facilities for various purposes: <P>1. Air-conditioned community halls. <BR>2. Storage for equipment such as cranes, fire trucks, off-road vehicles, tracked vehicles, ambulances..<BR>3. Emergency trauma centers<BR>4. Food ration storage and distribution centers. <BR>5. Water storage<BR>6. Fuel storage <BR>7. Rest areas for travelers (something which I bet the Golden Quadrilateral designer Babus are too "shy" and "proper" to have considered since in the Hindi movies the hero never needs to go to the bathroom!)<BR>8. Motels (I don't care about windows if I just have to sleep 7 hours)<BR>9. Yes, fighter planes<BR>10. SAMs<BR>11. Small-arms, ammunition and equipment.<BR>12. Pumps, inflatable rafts and air bags to float sunken buses.<P>This way, these places will be in constant use, eliminating my concern about long-term locked-up places. People will know to go to them, and they can get to them easy (the highways and access roads). They will already be staffed with government employees and trained paramedical personnel. The cranes etc, will be ready to get on to the highways to be sped to disaster areas. The fighter planes can use the roads to take off and land. The SAMs can defend the roads themselves: a lot easier than setting up SAM sites around gov't buildings in a panic as we were doing in June/July. <P>Plus, all these facilities will have several feet of concrete over them, at little additional cost, because of the highway. They will actually survive all but a direct hit in a nuclear attack.<P>Sure, they pose easily-identified targets, but this is a non-issue. First, any attack on a highway in India becomes an attack on a refugeee shelter (Pakis would love that, but few others would). Secondly, the locations of shelters have to be advertised anyway, so the enemy knows them without our help. Thirdly, a highway can be defended a lot better than an isolated building. <P>For the musically inclined, the road noise can be piped to their rooms as MegaBass <P>My point is that preparing for nuclear catastrophe alone is not a sellable issue in India, until a war actually starts and everyone panics. There is an annual market for emergency response, and our current ability to meet that demand is pathetic. Of course we may also expect to be hit by a meteor one of these days (watch "Armageddon" or "Deep Impact"..)<P>Comments? <p>[This message has been edited by narayanan (edited 03-09-1999).]

[Kuttan]

Suggest a serious, workable solution and look what happens!

[vram]

<I>9. Yes, fighter planes<BR>10. SAMs<BR>11. Small-arms, ammunition and equipment.</I><P>These will be a real pain to guard and protect, especially because they would be close to civilian facilities. A good target for Mujis to raid and re-arm or just to detonate.<P>But the overall concept sounds very interesting. Extending and improving national highways is one of the priorities of ABV and the BJP govt. And from public pronouncements it is expected that upgrading highways will be taken on at a war footing after elections.<P>Not only would projects like this help to have an emergency response system in place, but such infrastructure is vital for the growth of the economy. Moreover, it would provide employment to thousands and would make healthcare, banks etc.. more accessible to remote villages.<P>Sometime back somebody in BR suggested building underground road system to secretely transport and deploy Agni and other military equipment of strategic value. Maybe this would be possible with what Narayanan suggested except that the parallel subterrainean road system would be inaccessible to civilian use.<P><BR>

[Kuttan]

Appu: <P>Why not? The government is "seriously" talking about 6-lane superhighways: toll roads with limited access, presumably like the US Interstate system, or more likely, like the British A- and M- road system. The plan is for a N-S-E-W cross, (Srinagar-Kanyakumari, and Ahmedabad-Calcutta, I think), and a "Golden Quadrilateral", connecting Mumbai, Calcutta, Delhi, Hyderabad, Chennai, Bangalore. (note: Kerala excluded: grounds for starting the "KLF"? )<P>In the US, the estimate is $1million per mile of Interstate highway. We pay far less for our labor force and land, but we take longer and have far fewer machines, so I don't know the cost conversion. <P>Unlike the US, we don't have an empty continent. Nor do we have a surplus of concrete. We have to use our land and concrete wisely.<P>Such roads, to be any good, must go pretty straight, and have only gradual ups and downs. This means many long ramps, overpasses, bridges, some tunnels, etc., and hopefully they raise the road so it does not get flooded in every rain. These are concrete structures. Without planning, the spaces underneath will become, well, see Mumbai or Chennai or Miami to see what happens. <P>In India, getting cement /concrete is a big deal, so just the idea of synergizing shelter roofs and road beds is a huge cost-saver. The N-scare may shake out a lot of funds and land -acquisition permits that might not materialize otherwise. <P>Every village will want an access ramp to this system: let them put their shelters and cinema theaters under their on-ramps. <P>As for parking fighter planes, I think the Swedish do that already with their Viggens, and many forward areas in West Germany used such concepts because airfields were not expected to survive beyond the first hour of a Soviet invasion. <P>Saddam tried parking his Scuds under overpasses, but that just brought all the overpasses down. If he had them in underground chambers, he could have done much better. <P>The integration of the road system and civil defense, with modern community structures, may solve several problems. Makes it hard for anyone to oppose it. Also makes it easy to declare it an national priority, giving implementation authority to the Army. <P>I don't believe in underground railroads to move Agnis around. We have just so much railroad and so many trains that no enemy can hit all possible missile trains, so there is no need to park them underground.<P>Someone mentioned security and terrorist attacks. Sure, that's a problem, but its quicker to respond to an attack if it occurs near a major road, and besides, I am not suggesting that ALL our air force live under the road. Just enough to defend the road, and survive surprise attacks on airbases.<P>The road-building contractors should be, required to have their offices under the road, too. That way, they'll be a bit more careful about the sand fraction in the cement.<P>Finally, think of an India where all government offices are now underground. Appropriate, since they look like caves anyway now, and they keep them as organized as stone-age caves. <P>

[L Beeson]

Narayanan: I'm afraid this doesn't have the chance of coming to pass that your fabled crocuses have in the false springs that you've grown used to.<P>I suggest a more modest start. Borrow a page from the Israelis. A Rapid Reaction Force to deal with disasters. Rail disaster in a remote place?--IL-76(s) fly out to the nearest strip and disgorge bulldozers, backhoes, modular cranes, doctors, nurses medicines. You only need a half dozen or so. Position them in strategic locations and you save a lot of lives (win a lot of votes) and do something other than set up an inquiry commission and start assigning blame. This way a few crocuses make it.<P>Your dream reminds me of the plan that the Great State of New York had in the late 1970s--to evacuate New York City in the event of a nuclear war or even the now-empty LNG tanks on Staten Island blowing up. Millions were spent until someone and then many pointed out that it (then) took 4 hours for rush hour commuter traffic (100,000 people) to come in and another 4 to leave. Assuming you could somehow evacuate 8 million in say 30 minutes-why would they be any safer on the other side of the Hudson or in Connecticut?<P>Just cabbage.<P>------------------<BR>Laurie<p>[This message has been edited by lbeeson (edited 03-09-1999).]

[Kuttan]

Laurie: <P>Sorry, you missed the key points in my proposal. <P>a) The US EMA evacuation plans try to take people away from city centers which are expected to be on the "Ground Zero" list. I don't propose evacuating people by motor vehicle: they just run to the local shelters under the highways. Sure, a few thousands will die in the stampede, but that happens at every temple festival in India anyway. <P>b) I agree that it is largely futile to try surviving local nuclear blasts. However, the system might save a few thousand lives, simply because the fire trucks are close to the highway, etc. during the many other disasters that strike every year. <P>Evidently you have not been in a road vehicle in India with your eyes open, recently, or you would see why Jaws of Life and fire trucks and ambulances will be needed every 5 seconds when these new superhighways open to our fine drivers. <P>c) This way, all the attacks, nuclear or otherwise, will be concentrated on the highway system, burying all the government offices under tons of concrete, and leaving the villages intact. At minimum, this means a regeneration of Babus every few years. <P>Now THAT should lead to a REAL Spring!<P>The Rapid Reaction team is an excellent idea. I am afraid that it is now run by Indian Airlines, and the aircraft are permanently on loan to take politicians around the world. <P>Regards

[Kuttan]

Welcome, Salman!<P>1. OK, first, the same objections can be raised against any bomb-shelter plan: there is no way to create bomb-shelters for the entire population. The selection procedures shown in "Armageddon" won't work: Indians will first burn the shelters, since they are government buildings, and easier to find than State Transport Buses to burn.<P>2. the car-riding elite is not the object of the exercise: those who can walk/run to the nearest highway are. The mobile elite will fry in their airconditioned cars when the saturation strike on the road system begins.<P>2. The villages will hardly be the targets of the Pak saturation attack: even Asim's mass-produced launchers can't launch that many missiles. <P>3. Evacuating Indian cities (or any cities) to the countryside is impractical, as Laurie pointed out. <P>4. In the long run, for every shelter that the government builds, the public will build a thousand under their own homes. (I work in a former official fall-out shelter, but most homes built around here in the 1950s/60s have basements too.)<P>5.The point of the storage warehouses under government control is far more to provide relief / rescue capabilities than to shelter people. Thus, each shelter may not house 100,000 people, but it certainly can provide enough tents to house that many. And medicines and some MREs and, if all else fails, a good supply of KCN. <P>6. In the hoopla about nuclear survival, at least a functioning culture of responding to disasters, instead of just setting up Inquiry Panels (to quote Laurie)may result, which is all that can be achieved.<P>7. For every shelter that we build, Pak will have to build 3 to be better. This will provide useful jobs to the Mujaheddin, and perhaps even get them used to the idea of working for a living rather than just looting and murdering. <P>8. Lastly, as Spinster suggested, we may at least have a few functioning restrooms with indoor plumbing along these fancy highways. That alone should reduce the mad rush for speed on the highways, and keep the death rate down. <P>P.S. DRDO can do the whole project for Rs. 1 million. <p>[This message has been edited by narayanan (edited 03-09-1999).]

[L Beeson]

Narayanan:<P>"Evidently you have not been in a road vehicle in India with your eyes open, recently,"<P>True. I kept my eyes firmly shut. It was worse than anything I experienced in 'Nam.<P>"This way, all the attacks, nuclear or otherwise, will be concentrated on the highway system, burying all the government offices under tons of concrete, and leaving the villages intact. At minimum, this means a regeneration of Babus every few years. "<P>You might have a point there. I assume you were also going to suggest large bullseyes discernible only from the air?<P>I guess in India, the old Walt Kelly (pogo) aphorism comes out as "We have met the enemy and he is a babu"<P><P>------------------<BR>Laurie

[Kuttan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I assume you were also going to suggest large bullseyes discernible only from the air?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ha! That's the beauty of it. Every babu-concentration will most certainly insist on having their personal heli-pads painted on the highway surface right above their babudoms. <P>Even Paki missiles can be trained to identify these.

[Kuttan]

Salman: <P>The idea of nuclear-war survival is, I think, quite a serious topic for people in South Asia. The probability of a nuclear strike on a major city is a lot stronger than that of an earthquake in a major city. <P>An emergency-response system has been an urgent need forever. The response time, and the nature of the response, are really terrible at present. I read that after the recent train crash, no help came for about 2 days, by when most of the rescuable injured had died. Apparently a crane was sent, but with an engine that could not go faster than about 20 mph.

[Kuttan]

Salman (I hope this is the after-dinner Salman? )<P>Let's take each of those requirements, and test the Narayanan Highway ERS (NHERS) against it: <P>1. Industrial accidents: Vehicles and emergency supplies stored at dumps along the NHERS would be immediately loaded up onto the highways and race off at 90mph, sirens blazing. Or, cargo airlifters or helicopters would land on the highway, drive the trucks right into the cargo bays, and take off. No confusion about where to find the emergency equipment, or who should transport it, etc. <P>2. disease outbreaks: medical teams would be flown in to where they can pick up their equipment, then race off to help. <P>3. hurricanes: The raised highway system will still function. The dumps located underneath (doors facing away from the ocean, please), would provide emergency shelter, and as soon as the wind subsides, tent cities would be set up, using the stored emergency equipment. <P>4. droughts: well, I can't make rain yet, Salman, sorry! <P>5. floods: same as hurricane: the highways will stay above the flood plain, and the stored supplies and shelters will come in handy. <P>6. major fires: fire trucks and equipment will now be right at the expressway, ready to move to the site at high speed. When they get to the nearest exit, of course, they will get stuck in traffic as before. Alternately, helicopters could pluck fire trucks and/or water bags from the highway, direct. Result: response time reduced by a factor of 10, and response quailty improved by a factor of at least 10. <P>7. train accidents: the cranes will now be readily accessible, and can move down the road fast.<P>8. plane crashes: trauma centers under the NHERS will be ready to accept large numbers of burn and other trauma victims within minutes. Fire trucks would be despatched if the site is close enough to do any good. <P>The dumps would, of course, also have a supply of body bags, disinfectant, etc. , etc. <P>9. AIDS: well, I can't see what response speed can do in this case. Quality of service? Perhaps isolation wards with filtration systems to keep infection out? <P>All of the above, Salman, will provide practice and some preparation, however inadequate it may be, for the really huge disasters like earthquakes, meterors, Martian invaders ( ) and nuclear attacks. The fast-deploying SAM sites and fighter planes may also knock out a good percentage of incoming warheads.

[vram]

I don't know about ERS shelters, but highways we definitely need. And that's something that will get build by the govt or private sector in the next decade or two.<P> But if we are going to build an elaborate network of 4-lane national highways criss-crossing the countryside, what will be the incremental costs of building what narayanan suggests on a less ambitious basis? <P>when you are going to pour all that concrete to build the road, and you will have construction equipment readily available,-- why not build shelters below the highway at regular intervals??<P>Remember how the growth of Macdonalds was linked with the expansion of the US interstate? I think it would be feasible for commercial interest to invest in the shelters. I think a part of the shelter could be rented/sold to chai/magazine shops or whatever. Many village shopowners would love to have a "pucca" roof over their heads-- especially if it's govt subsidized.

[somnath]

hi narayan, salman,laurie,<P>the highway project suggestion is admirable,and also probable in the next few years,but the the rescue services from nuclear strikes is not.it will be spending too much good money being poured for too little.the concept of mutually assured destruction is that of deterrence.and for that we need to build up a credible second-strike force.we need nuclear subs, hardened missile silos,and a mobile land-based missile system.fancy airconditioned underground shelters is a pipedream for a poor country like ours.<BR>lets concentrate on making a credible, cost-effective deterrence than thinking about bizarre projects such as these.

[Kuttan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>fancy airconditioned underground shelters is a pipedream for a poor country like ours. lets concentrate on making a credible, cost-effective deterrence than<BR>thinking about bizarre projects such as these.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Let me see now, about the credible, cost-effective deterrence: <P>1. "we need nuclear subs",<P>Without air-conditioning, like Indian buses, I presume? Sounds really inexpensive..<P><BR>2. "hardened missile silos",<P>Oh, how hardened? Using clay to save on cost? Or dig new holes on new land, displace farmers, pour tons of concrete into these easily-identifiable targets, all at a cost much less than doing similar things on land that the government is already taking over and concreting, as I suggested? <P>And these silos, of course, would be "hardened" but of course have no "fancy airconditioning underground shelters".. lets see now: these silos are going to be above ground, with Rallye Fans twirling the nerve gas around? <P>How will the missiles reach these hardened silos? By bullock cart? Or on the present roads? Through village lanes with 2m-radius corners?<P>When a missile leaks, or a silo has a fire, of course we will congratulate ourselves on our "deterrent" and watch thousands of children die for lack of the basic emergency services which you dismiss as "bizarre"?<P>3. "and a mobile land-based missile system"<P>Ah! Such fine words. Mobile as in placed on rickshaws? Or mobile as in "subterranean railroad" (a very inexpensive option with no other uses?)<P><BR>FYI, the Palace Ground Parking Lot Cricket Club in Thrissur in the late '60s -'70s, had its World HeadQuarters in just such a cellar under the stadium in Thrissur, space which was made usable at very low additional cost.<P>BTW, more Indian soldiers died in 3 days of non-rescue, in the Gaisal train wreck, than in 3 months of all-out fighting in the mountains of Kashmir. Lying trapped and bleeding under wreckage, while the Babus twiddled their thumbs in Delhi or wherever..<P>40 people died, trapped like rats in a bus that gently backed and slid into a temple pond... no equipment available to rescue them..<P>Hundreds of accident victims and heart attack victims die each month, since trauma centers and ambulance services might as well be in the next galaxy..<P>May I suggest, with all due respect, that you find nuclear subs, mobile missiles, and hardened silos, to be "practical" and "cost-effective", only because you have seen pictures in the West, and that you find my suggestion "bizarre" only because it is not done so extensively in the West, and therefore not amenable to direct purchase or blueprint-copying? That "pipedream for a country like ours" is translation for "I am completely unimaginative"? <P><BR>Thanks for a posting which finally got my blood flowing again.. <P>[This message has been edited by narayanan (edited 04-09-1999).]<P>[This message has been edited by narayanan (edited 04-09-1999).]<P>[This message has been edited by narayanan (edited 04-09-1999).]<P>[This message has been edited by narayanan (edited 04-09-1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by narayanan (edited 04-09-1999).]

[somnath]

narayan,<BR>missile silos, nuke subs, mobile missile systems are all expensive, but they need not be built as extensively as the network u r talking about.lets consider this. a ballpark figure for good highways(those which can support fighters) is around 6-7 crores.so just a 1000 mile highway(still grossly inadequate) will cost 7000 crore.i have no figures for fancy a/c shelters,community houses,hangers etc. but to make them of any use, we must have a whole network of them throughout the country.and iam sure, given the cost of real estate in this country, it must cost a hell of a lot.and pray, what's the utility of dispersing assets like fighters throughout the country, making for a nightmarish command and control apparatus for them??<P>defence is not an end, its just a means to guarantee greater prosperity in peace for our people..lets not forget that.....

[somnath]

narayan,<BR>missile silos, nuke subs, mobile missile systems are all expensive, but they need not be built as extensively as the network u r talking about.lets consider this. a ballpark figure for good highways(those which can support fighters) is around 6-7 crores.so just a 1000 mile highway(still grossly inadequate) will cost 7000 crore.i have no figures for fancy a/c shelters,community houses,hangers etc. but to make them of any use, we must have a whole network of them throughout the country.and iam sure, given the cost of real estate in this country, it must cost a hell of a lot.and pray, what's the utility of dispersing assets like fighters throughout the country, making for a nightmarish command and control apparatus for them??<P>defence is not an end, its just a means to guarantee greater prosperity in peace for our people..lets not forget that.....

[Kuttan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>defence is not an end, its just a means to guarantee greater prosperity in<BR>peace for our people..lets not forget that.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I completely agree: this is why defense investments should have dual or multiple purposes whenever possible. That's why the highway project should be synergized with emergency services projects, and air defense projects (not sure myself that I want nuke silos placed under highways..)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> to make them of any use, we<BR> must have a whole network of them throughout the country.and iam sure,<BR>given the cost of real estate in this country, it must cost a hell of a lot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So why not use the real estate that is already to be paved over? Isn't that what I suggested?????????????? <P>High-speed highways have to be built on concrete beams or slabs, so they are really continuous bridges. The ground under them can be used, if this is done through intelligent planning before the highway is laid, rather than by digging up the highway afterwards. <P>The ERS will be in use every day, and save lives, whether or not one has any plans for nuclear war or any other war. Whereas the nuclear subs and silos have no other use.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>what's the utility of dispersing assets like fighters throughout the country, making for a nightmarish command and control apparatus for them??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nightmarish for us or the enemy? A nice, centralized C-cubed is the dream of every air raid planner: one strike and the entire air defense is taken out, as in Iraq, etc. <P>The purpose of air defense fighters is to defend air space, not to scare the enemy by lining up all on the same runway near the frontiers. In this age of cruise-missile strikes, the only way to save interior assets is to send a fighter patrol to 30,000 feet, ready to launch anti-missile missiles at very short notice: there's just no time to launch missiles from the ground and waste time accelerating through Mach 1. This requires locally-based fighters. <P>Purchasing nuclear subs or other gizmos will not guarantee security: it will just pour our money out to people who will use it to make even-better gizmos to sell to our enemies.<P>Missile silos in the boonies are a complete waste of resources. They will not keep Pakis from infiltrating, or blowing up rail stations. <P>So I don't get your objections...<P><BR>

[L Beeson]

Narayanan:<P>I sense the anguish of the hard choices. As for the blood flowing, I suggest you take another look at those cabbages.<P>Regards<P>------------------<BR>Laurie

[Kuttan]

Laurie: <P>All agriculture has come to a stop here in Atlanta, which is why I am on the Web on a Saturday afternoon. I gambled correctly on the weather in going to India for 3 weeks without any arrangements for cutting the grass: no rain. The tomato crop is dead, the pepper crop is dead...and its too hot and I am still too sick to go out for a raid on the Paki weeds infesting the garden. I would wash the car, except that I'd get arrested if I tried that.

[L Beeson]

Looks like a false summer too. Connecticut looks pretty bare but we suffered less than the SEast. We can still wash cars. <P>------------------<BR>Laurie

[Neshant]

I'll start digging right away!

[Kuttan]

Actually, I would be very interested in hearing from some people who know something about highway engineering, architecture, ditch-digging etc. : these are far outside my realm of expertise. The web part I can certainly handle. Before one approaches people in India who can actually make a difference in policy, the plan should be developed with enough layers of thick skin to take all the "not for Indian conditions" arrows. <P>Any takers? I am indeed serious, and can think of the means to approach a few people who will listen to serious proposals, when the time comes. Thanks!!