Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

[Khalsa]

Our only salvation lies in the development of Kaveri for the AMCA.

With that in mind, can we truly be free then respectfully engaged else we shall forever be trapped in the 3 way scrap begging that Pakistani Air Force finds itself in. After that sixth seventh generations will be achieved just as the way we went from 1992 (Cancelled by Clinton and Yeltsin) to 2024 and landing on the moon with our space tech.

For LCA MK1A and MK2, we shall have to induct some American Fighter, else continue to have these negotiations, fantasies and endless conversations till 2050 for the unlimited supply of GE Engines.

We ain't getting those without paying in money and flesh.

[williams]

Kota Harinarayana, Chief Designer LCA Tejas Reveals Why There’s A Production Delay

Some very good Gyan from Dr Kota JI regarding production rate, tech development, engine testing infrastructure etc. Very positive mindset and I believe if the collective mindset of the nation matches these geniuses, no one can stop us.

[Trikaal]

Given the uncertainty surrounding GE and Safran engines, why are we unwilling to consider Russian engines for Tejas Mk2? I know they are not as good as western engines, but they are good enough for the first generation. Maybe we can have a 2.2 version with Kaveri/GE/Safran engines. Most ch8nese jets fly on a variant if russian designs. Yes, it would require some redesign, but russian supply of engines seems more assured to me compared to western supply. Atleast we can derisk Mk2 and TEDBF, while continuing the design of AMCA with an indigenous or joint collab engine.

[maitya]

It's 50kN/75kN admiral. Even F404-IN is better.

<snip>
Now heaven only knows what Safran has proposed to the Indian Govt as part of the AMCA turbofan JV. Could Safran offer to develop the M88-3 and M88-4 as alternatives to the F404 for Mk1A and F414 for Mk2? It is possible, but the question is will the Govt take up the offer? Perhaps they are only offering the M88-4 for the Mk2 and leaving the Mk1A fleet with F404 turbofans. Nobody knows what discussions have taken place with Safran. Only time will tell.

That's what my speculation is as well ...

[Speculation Alert]
Actually I think/speculating, that Safran has said a firm "no" (RR didn't, yet) to any IPR sharing for the hot-section of the AMCA TF JV proposal - and without hot-section IPR sharing, I doubt MoD would even consider shelling out $5-6B for the JV, which in turn means there's no way this 5th Gen TF D&D funding would be adequate (for Safran).
Safran is thus trying to compensate for it, quite desperately, by this M88-4 Lic Mfg offer, as a combined program, and thus secure this entire funding.
M88-4 is not much of novelty really, it's a classic case of LPT/Fan/LPC tinkering (with some addn mass-flow), something that's more or less std in the global TF OEM landscape - so I doubt Safran would have spent too much in developing this -4 version anyway.

However, in both cases (AMCA 5th Gen TF and M88-4) the hot-section will remain limited to SKD (or maybe even CKD) Assembly - there can be IPR sharing on other aspects of the TF (which, betw, may not interest us much - most tech already developed/getting-developed via Kaveri and other programs).

And this has put a spanner to MoD awarding the AMCA TF JV contract to RR, atleast temporarily.

Now since we all are speculating, so some more wouldn't hurt much, maybe, just maybe, MoD is considering the following:
1) 6th Gen TF D&D JV with RR - so basically 3 stream TF (of AMCA TF specs)
in parallel with
2) 5th Gen AMCA TF and M88-4 Lic Mfg (with no hot section IPR) JV with Safran

If true, Boy, this will be one super-expensive proposition - but then again, everybody seems to be of the opinion that funding is not an bottleneck etc.
(fine print of course is, that's true exclusively for import programs only)
[/Speculation Alert]

[Cain Marko]

Why does the m88 4.0 higher thrust and sfc remind me of the mirages venerable m53... Gas guzzlers with poorish range.
India lost a great opportunity to redesign the Tejas around a al31fp circa 2008.

[williams]

Why does the m88 4.0 higher thrust and sfc remind me of the mirages venerable m53... Gas guzzlers with poorish range.
India lost a great opportunity to redesign the Tejas around a al31fp circa 2008.

AL 31 FP is too heavy - 1520 kg and has poor service life. M88 could be an option, but probably it was more expensive and we did not think US will mess with the supplies. In any case they need to weigh the time it takes to redesign the platform to fit a new engine vs time is takes to bring Kaveri upto speed. I am thinking the later is much more better for us today.

[Cain Marko]

Why does the m88 4.0 higher thrust and sfc remind me of the mirages venerable m53... Gas guzzlers with poorish range.
India lost a great opportunity to redesign the Tejas around a al31fp circa 2008.

AL 31 FP is too heavy - 1520 kg and has poor service life. M88 could be an option, but probably it was more expensive and we did not think US will mess with the supplies. In any case they need to weigh the time it takes to redesign the platform to fit a new engine vs time is takes to bring Kaveri upto speed. I am thinking the later is much more better for us today.

Sure the dimensions of the al31 are much larger, but consider that the engine has pretty m much the same size as that of the m53 on the mirage 2000, then compare the dimensions and empty weight of the m2k with the Tejas mk2 and you'll see what I'm getting at (hint.. The mk2 might actually be bigger and heavier!).

The al31 might not be as good as an f414 series but it's a lot better than the the m53, which was a guzzler and hurt the mirage in terms of endurance. It was an excellent engine out of the Russian stable and very competitive vs it's western counterparts in those days.

The al31s reliability is good enough and it is mostly built and serviced at home. Hal was even offered a deeper access to it by Russia but they turned the offer down.

Then think about what it would have meant for the NLCA with the loads of additional thrust that would've come into play.

If India has chosen to go this route in 2008 itself, by now we'd be producing a m2k class bird in large numbers. Not only in Iaf livery but also on Navy carriers. Let alone being in a situation that is still mired by uncertainty thanks to the engine choice, ge f414.

[Roop]

... and we did not think US will mess with the supplies.

That is precisely the problem -- the US appears to be playing dirty games again. We thought those days were over, but now it seems they aren't. Whether they actually are or not is almost irrelevant. There is a credible belief among us outside observers that they are. If GoI has reached the same conclusion (true or not), India will never again even tentatively consider buying a US combat aircraft.

In any case they need to weigh the time it takes to redesign the platform to fit a new engine...

Yes, again, that is the problem (or one of the problems). The other is: if not F414 then what? FWIW, I don't think Kaveri is a realistic option. Not for Tejas anyway -- the risks are too high.

Again, if the negative assumptions are true: you have to wonder "WTF!! What is America thinking? What gain can they possibly expect down the road that will offset the ill will from this backstab?" It may be that even asking that question is a pointless exercise. Maybe this mental urge to hold India back is so strong and visceral that they can't help themselves. Like that apocryphal story of the scorpion and the frog.

[Cain Marko]

... and we did not think US will mess with the supplies.

That is precisely the problem -- the US appears to be playing dirty games again. We thought those days were over, but now it seems they aren't. Whether they actually are or not is almost irrelevant. There is a credible belief among us outside observers that they are. If GoI has reached the same conclusion (true or not), India will never again even tentatively consider buying a US combat aircraft.

After the sanctions regime,, post pokhran 2.0, esp. wrt the LCA program, how could the planners at any level even dream of taking such a chance. For all the smart that the decision-makers display, they sure seem to take some stupid decisions.

[Prem Kumar]

Looks like the feku site IDRW spread rumors that "GE-HAL talks have stalled over the 414 engine". Now, HAL has sent a clarification that the talks are progressing well

Given IDRW's history of creating articles out of vaporware tweets, I'd tend to believe HAL

[Bharadwaj]

Here you go...

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1930230445318230035

[Prem Kumar]

Though, to be fair, MoneyControl was the first one to run a story on this. IDRW, as usual, plagiarized it

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/arpitkanodia30/status/1932656499060507012 ---> Let us conduct a comparative study between the Tejas Mk1A/Mk2 and the F-16 Block 70.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ShiroBarks/status/1932304004622828015 ---> Tejas Mk2 will have retractable refueling probe. Also Gallium nitride (GaN) AESA radar from second prototype.