Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

[Ramesh]

Some one on Twitter had zoomed into the released pics and clearly indicated that the missile in question was PL-15E., the export version with reduced range of 145 km.

[sohamn]

145 km is decent range, which leaves them vulnerable only to meteors but not anything else

[ashthor]

In one of the videos it looked like bomb dropped from a drone.

[vimal]

In one of the videos it looked like bomb dropped from a drone.

Yes I saw that too. Not all of them are missile attacks. Seems like multiple types of platforms were used.

[Tanaji]

@LakshmanPST: The Chinese will not be compelled to do any misadventure, when Pakistan is around. In the near future, China is expected to be delivering to Pakistan, the J-35 (a fifth gen, twin engine) stealth fighter along with the PL-17 BVRAAM. This missile has a "claimed" range of 400 km and has fins that can fold, so that the missile can fit inside the internal weapon bays of the J-35. The Chinese are sending their latest & greatest maal to the PAF, to test in real world combat situations. The lessons learnt in these conflicts (i.e. Op Sindoor) will be used to improve the platforms the Chinese have. The end goal for the ChiComs is the eventual take over of Taiwan, in which the Chinese are looking for a clear military edge.

Rakeshji, what are the chances that Pak gets the J35 in your opinion? The PL17 with a reduced range - definitely if not already provided. The whole J35? Would China risk it getting shot down even if it is to get combat data?

[Rakesh]

Rakeshji, what are the chances that Pak gets the J35 in your opinion? The PL17 with a reduced range - definitely if not already provided. The whole J35? Would China risk it getting shot down even if it is to get combat data?

Why are you calling me ji?

J-35 is a certainty for the PAF, along with the PL-17. And the Chinese are not in a generous mood to be "gifting" this to Pak. All favours from the ChiComs come with expensive invoices, that Pakistan will never be able to repay. And the ChiComs know it, but they will still give it. Because it gives them further leverage and control over Pakistan, when the invoice is unpaid. In addition, as mentioned earlier...Pakistan is fertile ground for the ChiComs to test all their maal. And Pakistan is always over eager to punish India. So it works out great for both countries. It is a symbiotic relationship.

And as for getting the J-35 shot down, that will not happen on Indian soil. So how do you verify any claims? In Operation Sindoor, not a single shoot down of PAF combat aircraft has landed on Indian soil. The PAF stays well within their own airspace and fires BVRAAMs at DMAX. Same tactic at Balakot as well. And DGISPR controls the narrative and has pre-gamed any future conflict. Remember how a photoshopped image of the tail of BS001 (the first single seater IAF Rafale) was shown lying on a field in Punjab? That image was created months before (perhaps a few years), by someone sitting in China.

So when China hands over their maal to Pakistan, the propaganda material also comes with it. So a future conflict will be gamed something like this ---> The J-35 shoots down Netra AEW&C or Phalcon AWACS, along with their Rafale escorts. Who in Pakistan is verifying this? Not a soul. DGSIPR said it, so it must be true onlee...because Allah told DGISPR. Pakistan Paindabad! Remember, this is a country that believes that the Pak Fizaya shot down three Rafales, one Su-30MKI, one MiG-29 and one UAV.

BTW, the Americans will not be left behind. In 2010, the PAF received 18 F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft along with 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAMs and other associated equipment. Any F-Solah tayara destroyed by the IAF in Operation Sindoor, will be duly - albeit quietly - replaced by Unkil. And in the future, expect new build aircraft also to be delivered (to replace the older model F-16s that were delivered in the 1980s). This will likely be Block 70/72 models with AIM-120C7 AMRAAMs. The F-16 is the military conduit in which the Americans and Pakistanis continue to talk with each other. And Unkil is not interested in severing that relationship.

So two superpowers (Unkil and the ChiCom) are playing their own geopolitical games in South Asia, but mainly to keep India in check. Always remember that it is Unkil's belief that India's rise must be "managed" by them. We saw that game even being played out on BRF from the MUTU crowd. For Unkil, they have their hands full in dealing with the Dragon and they do not want to deal with the Tiger as well. Even though the MRFA contest is not over, expect both Unkil and China to pull their strings to change the direction of the contest to their favour.

And Pakistan is being passed around - like a whore - by Unkil, China, Turkey and others. Everyone & Anyone can have a go at Pakistan, provided you throw lots of money to the Jernails. Interesting times ahead....

[Jay]

J-35 is a certainty for the PAF, along with the PL-17. And the Chinese are not in a generous mood to be "gifting" this to Pak.

I wish Chinis hand over their crown jewel j-35 to Pakis and the sooner they do it the better it is for us for more than one reason. We will have time to increase our funding and accelerate AMCA, AEW&C and other items to counter this. No more hiding behind lengthy funding-development-production circus, and no more multi year-multi season testing of our weapons by the forces. More time to just surround Paki land with aerostats and gather as much info as possible on their bird. This would also deepen out co-operation with western armies as they might also like to know more about this, played smartly it can be a win-win for us and our partners as well. With J-35, Pakis can say good bye to any upgrades to F-16s, and other western weapon systems. This will thoroughly push them into Chinis bed and it will be up to us on how we can leverage our situation.

Always remember that it is Unkil's belief that India's rise must be "managed" by them.

We also need to learn to play this game and not shut ourselves with self imposed dharmic arguments. Unkil also wanted to manage Chinis entry into global economics 30 years ago, how did that turn out? If Unkil wants to manage us, fine, give them the illusion while also reaping the leverage and at a certain point you just get away from that relationship dynamic. The game can be played in more than one way but not playing and sitting out won't get us to our goals any faster.

[m_saini]

..With J-35, pakis can say good bye to any upgrades to f-16'S, and other western weapon systems.

completely agree with the rest but not sure this will happen. What's the reasoning behind this?

[Jay]

..With J-35, pakis can say good bye to any upgrades to f-16'S, and other western weapon systems.

completely agree with the rest but not sure this will happen. What's the reasoning behind this?

I may be wrong, but I will highly doubt Americans will let their electronics, and planes co-exist with a top of the line, peer tech from a foe, who they might face in the next battle. Similar to the penalties they imposed on turkey when turkey went with S400.

[Rakesh]

I wish Chinis hand over their crown jewel j-35 to Pakis and the sooner they do it the better it is for us for more than one reason. We will have time to increase our funding and accelerate AMCA, AEW&C and other items to counter this. No more hiding behind lengthy funding-development-production circus, and no more multi year-multi season testing of our weapons by the forces. More time to just surround Paki land with aerostats and gather as much info as possible on their bird. This would also deepen out co-operation with western armies as they might also like to know more about this, played smartly it can be a win-win for us and our partners as well.

History has proved time and time again, that whenever Pakistan gets new weaponry....India runs to the import bazaar to get the next latest and greatest toy. When the J-35 comes, India will shop for a foreign 5th gen fighter.

AMCA is so far off on the horizon, that it cannot even be seen. At this recently concluded Aero India, you had the Air Chief complaining that Mk1As are not coming on time. The first examples were supposed to arrive by Feb/March 2024 and the first airframe is just now entering service. First that needs to be addressed, then the Mk2 and then comes the AMCA. We cannot skip that developmental wagon. The struggle exists with Mk1A production issues and GE's drip feed delivery schedule, is not helping either. We need to invest in more AEW&C airframes and EW platforms to counter whatever the PAF throws at us. These are low hanging fruits that need to be done ASAP.

We also need to learn to play this game and not shut ourselves with self imposed dharmic arguments. Unkil also wanted to manage Chinis entry into global economics 30 years ago, how did that turn out? If Unkil wants to manage us, fine, give them the illusion while also reaping the leverage and at a certain point you just get away from that relationship dynamic. The game can be played in more than one way but not playing and sitting out won't get us to our goals any faster.

Step 1 in achieving this goal is getting serious about turbofan development. But we are content with doing screwdrivergiri on other nations' turbofans.

With J-35, Pakis can say good bye to any upgrades to F-16s, and other western weapon systems. This will thoroughly push them into Chinis bed and it will be up to us on how we can leverage our situation.

I may be wrong, but I will highly doubt Americans will let their electronics, and planes co-exist with a top of the line, peer tech from a foe, who they might face in the next battle. Similar to the penalties they imposed on turkey when turkey went with S400.

Unkil has superior platforms to Block 70/72 F-16s.

They are not about to shut down the door on Pakistan, just because they got the J-35 from China.

Unkil will not sever the relationship with Pakistan. And that is something our policy makers in New Delhi need to understand.

[m_saini]

With J-35, Pakis can say good bye to any upgrades to F-16s, and other western weapon systems. This will thoroughly push them into Chinis bed and it will be up to us on how we can leverage our situation.

I may be wrong, but I will highly doubt Americans will let their electronics, and planes co-exist with a top of the line, peer tech from a foe, who they might face in the next battle. Similar to the penalties they imposed on turkey when turkey went with S400.

Unkil has superior platforms to Block 70/72 F-16s.

Have to agree with this. F-16s aren't F-35s/Turkish S400 situation.

Although that would be the ideal situation, unkil and chinnis would never fight each other directly. We just have to get to a point where the 2nd rate maal from chinnis/unkil won't make a difference between us and pakis.

[Rakesh]

History has proved time and time again, that whenever Pakistan gets new weaponry....India runs to the import bazaar to get the next latest and greatest toy. When the J-35 comes, India will shop for a foreign 5th gen fighter.

I sincerely hope I am proven wrong in my statement above and the following tweets are proven right. Will be music to my ears.

https://x.com/btarunr/status/1926154350386098457 ---> India won't panic-buy either F-35A or Su-57 in response to J-35 in the subcontinent (which I still think is a BS psyop); India will build very-large stealth-detection radars, and accelerate the AMCA program.

https://x.com/rv_srivatsa/status/1926171299291775312 ---> The age of matching fighter to fighter is over. This was maybe up to the 2000s. In today's age, going for a new jet because Pakistan got J-35 is not the answer. Development of "Counter" systems capable of swatting down these platform is a perfectly valid approach.

[Jay]

History has proved time and time again, that whenever Pakistan gets new weaponry....India runs to the import bazaar to get the next latest and greatest toy. When the J-35 comes, India will shop for a foreign 5th gen fighter.

That's what many of us are afraid of.

[vonkabra]

J-35 is a certainty for the PAF, along with the PL-17. And the Chinese are not in a generous mood to be "gifting" this to Pak. All favours from the ChiComs come with expensive invoices, that Pakistan will never be able to repay. And the ChiComs know it, but they will still give it. Because it gives them further leverage and control over Pakistan, when the invoice is unpaid.

Agree that J-35 is highly likely for Pakistan - their air chiefs are as enamored with the latest sexy platform as our own. However, a few thoughts on this:
1. They will never be able to afford more than 30-40 of them (they still only have 36 J-10s)
2. I don't think the Chinese are going to give anything just for influence/ leverage - for all practical purposes they already run TSP as a colony. And while in the past they may have gone soft on collections, in the current scenario, given the way the BRI has been struggling, they are definitely going to demand to be paid. I don't even think the Pakis have any more assets which the Chinese may be willing to take instead. While the proceeds from existing IMF loan may be used to pay for the J-10s, acquiring the J-35 will be the final nail in the coffin for the TSP economy - and when you combine it with what is going to happen a few years down the line with the IWT suspension...
3. As for the impact of the J-35s, it will probably be lower than anyone thinks. For one thing, there will be too few of them to make much of an impact and given the PAF's fixation on air-to-air combat, they are not likely to be used for a SEAD type role (as you already mentioned, they will probably never send them on offensive operations over Indian territory in any case). Secondly, given that anyway the Pakis always deny any losses, the next time around I'm pretty sure we will target their air bases either before or during the attack on terror camps. With better satellite imagery in place, good luck trying to take off from airfields which have been strategically cratered (using 10x of what was used during Op Sindoor) or have loitering drones flying overhead. And then we have anti-stealth radars being developed by the DRDO, and from what we have seen, our desi stuff trumps whatever the Pakis are getting.
4. Finally, given that DJT is already loosening sanctions on Turkey for the F-35, odds-on we will get it in due course. Whether we need it is another story, but as mentioned earlier, our Air Chiefs are no better when it comes to a chance to get the latest shiny toy...

[Avinandan]

Pakistan planning to buy SiPer AD systems from Turkiye
https://zeenews.india.com/hindi/zee-hin ... ia/2772313

As per the news, it is arguably better than Chinese AD Systems and works well in EW Jammed environments

Per Wikipedia
Siper Block 1 : Range 100 km, Flight Altitude : 20 km
Siper Block 2 : Range 150 km, Flight Altitude : 30 km
Siper Block 3 (Under Development) : Range 180 km, , Flight Altitude : ~30+ km

[williams]

J-35 is a certainty for the PAF, along with the PL-17. And the Chinese are not in a generous mood to be "gifting" this to Pak. All favours from the ChiComs come with expensive invoices, that Pakistan will never be able to repay. And the ChiComs know it, but they will still give it. Because it gives them further leverage and control over Pakistan, when the invoice is unpaid.

Agree that J-35 is highly likely for Pakistan - their air chiefs are as enamored with the latest sexy platform as our own. However, a few thoughts on this:
1. They will never be able to afford more than 30-40 of them (they still only have 36 J-10s)
2. I don't think the Chinese are going to give anything just for influence/ leverage - for all practical purposes they already run TSP as a colony. And while in the past they may have gone soft on collections, in the current scenario, given the way the BRI has been struggling, they are definitely going to demand to be paid. I don't even think the Pakis have any more assets which the Chinese may be willing to take instead. While the proceeds from existing IMF loan may be used to pay for the J-10s, acquiring the J-35 will be the final nail in the coffin for the TSP economy - and when you combine it with what is going to happen a few years down the line with the IWT suspension...
3. As for the impact of the J-35s, it will probably be lower than anyone thinks. For one thing, there will be too few of them to make much of an impact and given the PAF's fixation on air-to-air combat, they are not likely to be used for a SEAD type role (as you already mentioned, they will probably never send them on offensive operations over Indian territory in any case). Secondly, given that anyway the Pakis always deny any losses, the next time around I'm pretty sure we will target their air bases either before or during the attack on terror camps. With better satellite imagery in place, good luck trying to take off from airfields which have been strategically cratered (using 10x of what was used during Op Sindoor) or have loitering drones flying overhead. And then we have anti-stealth radars being developed by the DRDO, and from what we have seen, our desi stuff trumps whatever the Pakis are getting.
4. Finally, given that DJT is already loosening sanctions on Turkey for the F-35, odds-on we will get it in due course. Whether we need it is another story, but as mentioned earlier, our Air Chiefs are no better when it comes to a chance to get the latest shiny toy...

Even if it is the Chinese mall, it is going to cost upward 5 billion USD to build and operationalize 40 planes of this caliber. Chinese will be laughable fools if they donate that amount of money for beggarly Pakis just to keep India in check. India is already investing in VHF and KU-band radars with a lot of AI infused detection capability. Indian AD systems include IR and AV short range detection capability already. Moreover these J-35s will come with the same old dud PL-15s.

You don't counter a stealth fighter with another stealth fighter. F-35 is a white elephant that India is never going to invest, especially with US showing signs of insincerity with delivery of simple engines for the Tejas program. I am pretty sure next year Tejas Mk - 2.0 will fly and air launched Bramos is going to be mated with it soon. Following that AMCA will also be ready. We can build more MKIs in the interim. If the French can put their manufacturing in India, MRFA may also fructify. It is their deal to lose. As of now Modi Sarkar is in no mood to satisfy the import lobbies from the west, given their soft support for the Pakis.

[MeshaVishwas]

Interesting thing said by the Naval Group salesman regarding (I'm assuming) the company's MESMA air independent power.
Fast forward to 4:30.
He says that AIP is good for (I'm paraphrasing here) ISR duties during peacetime.
In war, it's utility is reduced.
I realize that the Paki Khalid class deal was rife with massive kickbacks but the French seem to have gotten a customer to buy something that they themselves have little faith in.

[Cain Marko]

https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/de ... 1-fighters

Fc31 = jf35?

One thing about TSP, they sure move fast. Inducted in months? Despite what common sense might suggest, I think India will purchase a few 5gen birds, the mrfa might just see an upgrade.

But the real counter will be via voronez and nebo complex hooked into the IADS. My guess is more s400/500 could be bought when Putin mamu comes to town and a couple of f35 sqds when Trumpwa comes calling.

[drnayar]

https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/de ... 1-fighters

Fc31 = jf35?

One thing about TSP, they sure move fast. Inducted in months? Despite what common sense might suggest, I think India will purchase a few 5gen birds, the mrfa might just see an upgrade.

But the real counter will be via voronez and nebo complex hooked into the IADS. My guess is more s400/500 could be bought when Putin mamu comes to town and a couple of f35 sqds when Trumpwa comes calling.

Comes with
China's PL-17 air-to-air missile (AAM), which has a range of about " 400 km."..

[Rakesh]

https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/de ... 1-fighters

Fc31 = jf35?

One thing about TSP, they sure move fast. Inducted in months? Despite what common sense might suggest, I think India will purchase a few 5gen birds, the mrfa might just see an upgrade.

But the real counter will be via voronez and nebo complex hooked into the IADS. My guess is more s400/500 could be bought when Putin mamu comes to town and a couple of f35 sqds when Trumpwa comes calling.

There is nothing called JF-35. It is J-35.

And yes, FC-31 = J-35. The former is the export variant of the latter.

China is sending their latest maal to Pak to test via live military operations. Feedback from these conflicts (i.e. Op Sindoor) will be sent to the Chinese for further upgrades and improvements. This will be useful for the Chinese, during the military takeover of Taiwan.

The PAF will be eager to get their hands on the PL-17, as they will be desperate for revenge of their Erieye shoot down.

[vaibhavs]

As much as dhoti shivering I am noticing with regards to J-35 especially on reddit among fellow deshwasis, I am more or less sure that there is only one country that has really managed to get a 5th gen fighter working. If ruskis haven't got it working, there is no way in hell the chicoms do. The chicoms were testing out J-35s with RD-93 engines which are absolutely dog shit. I think they still haven't got the jet engines working perfectly as I remember the pakis had to beg to ruskis for the RD-93 MA upgrade. I am sure our armed forces are well aware of how to counter these but me thinks its not really a 5th gen fighter.

[ernest]

As much as dhoti shivering I am noticing with regards to J-35 especially on reddit among fellow deshwasis, I am more or less sure that there is only one country that has really managed to get a 5th gen fighter working. If ruskis haven't got it working, there is no way in hell the chicoms do. The chicoms were testing out J-35s with RD-93 engines which are absolutely dog shit. I think they still haven't got the jet engines working perfectly as I remember the pakis had to beg to ruskis for the RD-93 MA upgrade. I am sure our armed forces are well aware of how to counter these but me thinks its not really a 5th gen fighter.

It is not a 5th gen fighter for sure- but will have reduced RCS (with a decent payload), lower than any fighter fielded in India. We have enough counters, but we will have to contend with reduced detection/tracking ranges than we had earlier planned for. The best best is still to degrade their airfields using SSMs, something we demonstrated pretty well in Op Sindoor. No point in 5th gen/4th gen if it cannot take off. But for a surprise attack/day-1/one off skirmish, we still need to consider the reduced RCS fighter

[williams]

As much as dhoti shivering I am noticing with regards to J-35 especially on reddit among fellow deshwasis, I am more or less sure that there is only one country that has really managed to get a 5th gen fighter working. If ruskis haven't got it working, there is no way in hell the chicoms do. The chicoms were testing out J-35s with RD-93 engines which are absolutely dog shit. I think they still haven't got the jet engines working perfectly as I remember the pakis had to beg to ruskis for the RD-93 MA upgrade. I am sure our armed forces are well aware of how to counter these but me thinks its not really a 5th gen fighter.

It is not a 5th gen fighter for sure- but will have reduced RCS (with a decent payload), lower than any fighter fielded in India. We have enough counters, but we will have to contend with reduced detection/tracking ranges than we had earlier planned for. The best best is still to degrade their airfields using SSMs, something we demonstrated pretty well in Op Sindoor. No point in 5th gen/4th gen if it cannot take off. But for a surprise attack/day-1/one off skirmish, we still need to consider the reduced RCS fighter

Ernest Ji, here are some counter-tech points I would like to make. Op Sindoor proved that the Chinese HQ-9 radar did not perform well. This means that whatever Russian RADAR design these guys copied is of poor quality. Now, the stealth AC you design is based on RCS calculations made by your best RADARs. If your RADARs are of poor quality, then your stealth design will also be of poor quality. In the military technology domain, simply copying others' designs and reverse engineering is not enough. You will have to put your equipment through rigorous testing and make those essential fine tuning to give your equipment an edge against the enemy. I see Chinese equipment being churned out rapidly, accompanied by a lot of propaganda. That surely means they are cutting corners in testing to produce quick results. Our folks, on the other hand, test things to death, to the point where we all complain about the time it takes to conduct all the trials.

The second issue is that stealth ACs need a lot of painstaking maintenance. Pakis need good MRO facilities to maintain these ACs. That required skilled technicians, equipment, and facilities. Even if the Chinese provide these beggars with free aircraft, they need to spend the necessary time and money to establish these MRO facilities. Even though they are starving their people and allocating all they can to their defense budget, they cannot afford to maintain such MRO facilities for large numbers of aircraft for extended periods.

Third, the future initial day of the skirmish will be different. This Op proved that we are capable of striking them without SEAD and DEAD ops. The next one will not be that way. The enemy already knows our current tactic. We cannot follow the same tactics in the future.

This means we don't need to go on a panic-buying spree for either the F-35 or SU-57. We need to take our time and perfect the fifth-generation tech we have already developed and then start building AMCA. We will need to continue fine-tuning our AD systems and acquire more Netras and EW systems. Incorporate more VHF and Ku-band radars into the network and enhance our SIGINT, SATINT, and HUMINT capabilities to gain a deeper understanding of our enemies.

[ernest]

Ernest Ji, here are some counter-tech points I would like to make. Op Sindoor proved that the Chinese HQ-9 radar did not perform well. This means that whatever Russian RADAR design these guys copied is of poor quality. Now, the stealth AC you design is based on RCS calculations made by your best RADARs. If your RADARs are of poor quality, then your stealth design will also be of poor quality. In the military technology domain, simply copying others' designs and reverse engineering is not enough. You will have to put your equipment through rigorous testing and make those essential fine tuning to give your equipment an edge against the enemy. I see Chinese equipment being churned out rapidly, accompanied by a lot of propaganda. That surely means they are cutting corners in testing to produce quick results. Our folks, on the other hand, test things to death, to the point where we all complain about the time it takes to conduct all the trials.

I agree with the spirit of your post, Williams ji. I just want to point out that J-35 will likely be an improvement over J-10. I do not mean that their stealth is very good, but they still would reduce RCS by enough to reduce effective range of our current radars by (a number i pulled out of my musharraf) 50%, when compared to J-10 (current best in PAF). That they will gain some advantage out of this, and we need to invest in a proper counter to it

The second issue is that stealth ACs need a lot of painstaking maintenance. Pakis need good MRO facilities to maintain these ACs. That required skilled technicians, equipment, and facilities. Even if the Chinese provide these beggars with free aircraft, they need to spend the necessary time and money to establish these MRO facilities. Even though they are starving their people and allocating all they can to their defense budget, they cannot afford to maintain such MRO facilities for large numbers of aircraft for extended periods.

This is excellent news for us. Like someone posted on twitter, by going for J-35, instead of plugging their AD gaps, they have only hastened our stealth/counter stealth programs. Not many people ask what PAF is going to do to counter our tech. It was clear that they are unable to stop Brahmos, which we will use again to cripple them. Instead of fixing that gap, they're wasting their last bundle of grass on something that will get them maybe a few A2A kills on day-1 for echandee purposes. In their tactical brilliance, they have not thought of what will happen on day-2 onwards.

Third, the future initial day of the skirmish will be different. This Op proved that we are capable of striking them without SEAD and DEAD ops. The next one will not be that way. The enemy already knows our current tactic. We cannot follow the same tactics in the future.

based on performance of IAF, I trust they will have plans in place to deal with whatever PAF comes up with.

This means we don't need to go on a panic-buying spree for either the F-35 or SU-57. We need to take our time and perfect the fifth-generation tech we have already developed and then start building AMCA. We will need to continue fine-tuning our AD systems and acquire more Netras and EW systems. Incorporate more VHF and Ku-band radars into the network and enhance our SIGINT, SATINT, and HUMINT capabilities to gain a deeper understanding of our enemies.

You are bang on target. We should go for building wide ranging capabilities. If you see in my post, I do not advocate for importing any 5th gen fighter. Just that we need to now account for that low-RCS capability with them, and use whatever our strengths are to counter that added to the mix. I'd prefer, we do not even engage their fighters in the air, and give them another out of syllabus attack. Not much difference in 4th and 5th gen if they cannot take off.

[SSridhar]

One thing about TSP, they sure move fast. Inducted in months?

They move fast because of two reasons: One, they live just to fight India another day irrespective of increasing margins of defeat (and the latest one is very massive indeed). The greater the margin, the more sophisticated their purchase (or begging) has to be for the next fight. Two, it is an H&D based quam and have to be seen stronger TFTA than SDREs. Hence FC-31, begging for ADS from the Americans, Field Marshal rank for defeat, and refusal to accept bodies of dead soldiers or removal of debris from destroyed airbases or HAS.

[Manish_P]

On X some Pak analcysts (fan boys really) were postulating that the stealth aircraft have been bought to show India that they can hit the dams which India have closed by suspending the IWT

[Rakesh]

Unpaid jets, unfinished planes: China’s 50% discounted fighter plane sale to Pakistan; citizens ask who is benefiting?
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 708174.cms
08 June 2025

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ndtv/status/1935359094400950361 ---> Pakistan to get 40 Chinese J-35 stealth jets

[Manish_P]

^ Pakistan should insist they be sent with a halal shariah compliant Lundberg lens.

[Rakesh]

Align On Iran, Pivot Away From China: Decoding Trump's Lunch Message To Asim Munir
https://www.news18.com/world/iran-china ... e_vignette
19 June 2025

US President Donald Trump, in a high-stakes diplomatic manoeuvre, hosted Pakistan’s Chief of Army Staff Field Marshall Asim Munir for a closed-door lunch at the White House on Wednesday. According to top diplomatic sources in Washington, the meeting was anything but ceremonial as Trump laid out a series of sweeping demands and bold offers aimed at reshaping the regional power balance.

America’s New Ask

With tensions rising across the Middle East amid growing fears of a full-scale Iran-Israel conflict, President Trump has reportedly asked Pakistan for unconditional military and strategic support. “If the US goes to war with Iran, we want Pakistan on our side," a top diplomatic source confirmed. This support would include access to air bases, ground logistics, and potentially sea routes—making Pakistan a critical player in any upcoming military theatre. “Pakistan knows Iran better than most. They’re not happy with what’s happening. They’re not bad with Israel either. They know both sides," Trump said after the luncheon, adding that Munir understood the stakes involved.

Dangling The Carrot

In return, Trump has promised Pakistan unprecedented access to American defence technology—including 5th-generation stealth jets and advanced missile systems—along with significant financial aid. This offer is seen as a counter to Pakistan’s growing dependence on Chinese military support, particularly as the country prepares to receive Chinese J-35A fighters and air defence systems later this year. Trump also extended the prospect of new security and trade agreements, hinting at a broader US-Pakistan counter terrorism partnership.

Say No to Beijing & Moscow

A key message from President Trump during the talks was unambiguous: stay away from China and Russia. Trump reportedly urged Munir to “distance Pakistan from Eastern blocs," including BRICS, and instead re-join the US-led security framework. “We want our old partner back," a source close to the administration said, underlining Washington’s desire to prevent Pakistan from drifting further into the China-Russia orbit.

Kashmir Back On The Table

Trump once again offered to personally mediate between India and Pakistan on contentious issues—including Kashmir, cross-border terrorism, and the Indus Waters Treaty. “These are two big nuclear powers. We don’t want another war. I thanked Field Marshal Munir for not going to war with India. That could’ve been nuclear," the US President had told reporters. He further stated that both countries had “great people" and expressed optimism about resolving disputes in a peaceful, trade-driven framework.

Pakistan remains the only nuclear nation in the region not firmly aligned with the US-India-Israel-Gulf alliance architecture, including coalitions like I2U2 and US-GCC pacts. Trump’s overtures to Munir are widely viewed as an attempt to bring Pakistan into this strategic fold—especially as the US shores up regional support in the face of escalating tensions with Iran. Experts believe this could be the most significant shift in US-Pakistan relations since the post-9/11 War on Terror alliance. However, Pakistan’s response—especially regarding its strategic ties with China—remains to be seen.

[chetak]

with a pakjabi jernail gracing the table, the amrikis would have counted the cutlery, both before and after the lunch

sadly however, the host and the guest were both not halal

The White House earlier said that Trump agreed to host Munir after the latter suggested the US President be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize for preventing a nuclear conflict. Trump also claimed the two discussed Iran extensively, calling Pakistan’s insight on Tehran “better than most.”

https://www.freepressjournal.in/world/w ... army-chief

[nishant.gupta]

^^^ miya munir could not figure out how tamatar ki jam ban gayi. rest of the menu items were just bouncers from shoaib akhtar which he simply decided to duck (i am not calling him a duck please)

[Manish_P]

Was there a strip club routine done after the lunch?

Pakis would arrange belly dancing for the visiting Yanks.

[nishant.gupta]

On a serious note, its possible that the discussion could be happening around NOT to poke any fingers into India while US forces are in terroristan because for sure, India would have made it clear that any such adventures will result in the continuation of Op Sindoor and any US assets in Paki airbases might end up on the wrong end of our Brahmos.

[gakakkad]

W.r.t news18 article ,is there any credible source that suggests pak was offered 5th generation fighter ,missile defense etc ?

[Rakesh]

W.r.t news18 article ,is there any credible source that suggests pak was offered 5th generation fighter ,missile defense etc ?

News18 is the only one reporting it as of yet.

My personal take ---> No F-35 offer is on the table. But this is likely;

- Post Op Sindoor, the PAF will be looking to replace the attrition losses to their F-16 fleet.

- The early model F-16s delivered to the PAF will be due for replacement by next decade. And this includes the ex-Jordanian Air Force F-16s.

- The Viper is very much loved by PAF crews and is their preferred platform in the A2G role. They have the J-10 for long range BVR strikes and this will be complemented by the incoming J-35 + PL-17 combo.

- Pakistan will ask for F-16s, in return for their support in the Iran war and Trump Administration will likely oblige. PAF will request for the Block 70 variant, with the AN/APG-83 Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) and at least the AIM-120C7 variant, among other weaponry. The PAF received 500 AIM-120C5s as part of the 18 Block 50/52s they received in the 2010 order. There was a follow-on 18 airframe order, that the PAF could not get.

- In terms of numbers, expect at least a 40 aircraft order at minimum and also to upgrade the Block 50 variants they have at present. The F-Solah is burned into the psyche of the Pakistani awaam and this is the price Pakistan will demand (and will get) for their co-operation. It is in America's interest to wean Pakistan away from China's grip. How successful that strategy will be, remains to be seen. The F-16 is the geopolitical conduit that America uses to "talk" with Pakistan and get her to co-operate i.e. do America's bidding (albeit temporarily).

- So the PAF will want the Block 70 variant and likely the Trump Administration will give in, unless the latter insists on only giving the Block 50 variant. But that is unlikely IMVHO. The PAF will want an AESA platform for their premier strike fighter. My guess would be around 4 squadrons (~ 80 aircraft) worth of new/upgraded F-16s (40 to replace the earlier model F-16s delivered in the 80s + the ex-Jordanian Air Force examples + 18 Block 50/52 aircraft). That is a serious increase in firepower capability.

- In terms of payment, it will be under the murky crypto deal between Pakistan and the cryptocurrency company World Liberty Financial (managed by the sons of the Orange Diaper Baby).

- From an Indian perspective, DT will use the excuse that since India is not purchasing an American fighter (under the MRFA contract)...he is under no obligation to not give Pakistan modern combat aircraft. The usual US State Department excuse will be given i.e. parity of capability between two nuclear powers = deterrence. DT has already mentioned that term (two nuclear powers) numerous times since Op Sindoor. But history has shown that each time Pakistan gets an enhancement in military capability, it attempts a military (mis)adventure. And the future will be no different.

P.S. And even if India ends up with the F-35, then the excuse will be since India has the more capable aircraft....additional F-16s for Pakistan should not be worrisome for India.

[gakakkad]

We need to figure out why pak is needed to whack Iran .

I think best for the world is Ayatollah flees and no additional intervention is needed

[Rakesh]

We need to figure out why pak is needed to whack Iran .

I think best for the world is Ayatollah flees and no additional intervention is needed

I doubt Khameni will do that.

My fear is that post our missile success in Op Sindoor, Air HQ will do a re-think of 42 squadrons for the IAF. The MRFA will still be alive (heaven forbid for Air HQ if they shut down that contest! ) but our local programs (follow on Mk1A order + Mk2) will suffer. If Mk2 goes the way of the dodo bird, AMCA will be DOA (Dead On Arrival).

Our missile program is nothing short of spectacular and is only set to rise ---> viewtopic.php?p=2652449#p2652449

[gakakkad]

I don't know why we can't have it all . Our gdp will effectively double in next 6-7 years and impact of make in India success will be non linear .

Honestly we should tell unkil that any replacement will be met me preemptive strikes .

[williams]

I don't know why we can't have it all . Our gdp will effectively double in next 6-7 years and impact of make in India success will be non linear .

Honestly we should tell unkil that any replacement will be met me preemptive strikes .

Right now we need to let this play out while we keep razor focus on our economy and building our MIC. We have enough influence in the US to stall the Paki wet dream for a long time. Trump will have to turn around or perish if these wars continue with no end in place.