Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[williams]

The real mistake is not funding Kaveri. License production of someone's else engine is not really a game changer.

https://x.com/VinodDX9/status/1937737540254974028 ---> I'll say that we have made a mistake by not having long term plans from the beginning for Tejas in large numbers and subsequently by not having an Indian production line of the F404-GE-IN20.

We lost a decade and it is not going to come back no matter what. Hopefully we are making the amends and moving forward. We need locally produced GEs with its compromises to get the Tejas program going until we gain back engine tech maturity.

[Rakesh]

We lost a decade and it is not going to come back no matter what. Hopefully we are making the amends and moving forward. We need locally produced GEs with its compromises to get the Tejas program going until we gain back engine tech maturity.

We are still stuck on the bandwagon of ToT for engine technology.

No amends are being made to move forward. We will be doing screwdrivergiri on other nations' engines and then shamelessly state that the engine is being built from the raw material stage.

Most current example of engine assembly ---> viewtopic.php?p=2652912#p2652912
P.S. The above link is what HAL refers to as building turbofans from raw material stage

[sanjayc]

The only solution is a "National Aircraft Engine Mission," with GTRE, HAL, ISRO, IITs, IIS and top three or four private players like Bharat Forge, etc. as partners. They will crack the problem in 5 years and get Kaveri up and running

[Cain Marko]

After what happened after Pok 2.0 and the sanctions on LCA, it was bewildering to see ADA choose a GE engine for the bird. Absolutely asinine. Why blame just hal.

[bala]

I believe GTRE should have first worked on a lower rated jet engine and get it working/operational. Then you move onto higher ratings. Getting a working operational engine is the hurdle to circumvent. The BMW jet engine of Germany was a working operational engine which WW-II victors got their hands into. Even though Frank Whittle of Britain dabbled in jet engines (he is credited with Jet engine, even though he did not have a working operational one), the know how from germany is what US/Russia/France used. Theory and practice are far removed, there are practical know how tricks which make the engine tick. India is going through practically climbing the tall mountain in engine tech. Also flat rating is something quite new not attempted by others.

Testing and certification is huge and don't know where things are with Kaveri engine, even though some testing in Gromov has been done. Actual real world testing for ruggedness, fail safe performance, all weather performance and more are needed. GE has a facility in Ohio for environmental (rain, hail ice storm, wind) testing of engines, HAL/GTRE needs one facility like this.

[V_Raman]

In spite of all the history, if they are still going for GE engines - GOI and Forces trust their quality and reliability so much that they are orders of magnitude better than all other military engine they have in the inventory! They want LCAs to be workhorses and not hangar queens. Dont forget that it was Marut with Orpheus engines that won the war for us by being the workhorse - it was due to western engines...

[Prem Kumar]

We need a national mission, like others have pointed above, headed by the PMO itself, for jet engines in particular and powerplants of all sizes/ratings in general. There are enough precedences like National Semiconductor Mission, Supercomputing mission etc

It needs a serious ass-kicker program manager with aggressive interim milestones/deliverables

Bring in a consortium of private players, DRDO labs, IITs, startups etc. Conduct hardware hackathons. Get the youth excited. This is a golden time - manufacturing is becoming "cool" again worldwide and also in India

Liberal funding over a decade but with a DARPA like focus on results. It needs to be our moon-mission

And GTRE cannot be the lead agency in this consortium because they have lost their mojo. Them & HAL are just like driftwood now - going with the flow

Enough people have tagged Modi about this. When he can personally monitor Gati Shakti, Pragati, Jal Jeevan & Vande Bharat programs, there is no reason he cannot monitor something as critical as this. This cannot be left to Rajnath Singh

[Cain Marko]

In spite of all the history, if they are still going for GE engines - GOI and Forces trust their quality and reliability so much that they are orders of magnitude better than all other military engine they have in the inventory! They want LCAs to be workhorses and not hangar queens. Dont forget that it was Marut with Orpheus engines that won the war for us by being the workhorse - it was due to western engines...

It was not an air force decision on the engine and the current (for nigh on 2 decades) workhorse of the fleet is the Su30mki with Russian engines

[Bharadwaj]

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/up-f ... ryshareurl

. However, in a volte face, HAL in March 2025 decided to put in radar and EW systems from ELTA, the supplier for the first 40 aircraft, for those final 43 aircraft as well.

These are issues that should not be washed in public and settled internally. The radar is certified by CEMILAC for production so HAL should cooperate in integrating it with the scorpius till the indigenous pod is ready.

[pravula]

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/up-f ... ryshareurl

. However, in a volte face, HAL in March 2025 decided to put in radar and EW systems from ELTA, the supplier for the first 40 aircraft, for those final 43 aircraft as well.

These are issues that should not be washed in public and settled internally. The radar is certified by CEMILAC for production so HAL should cooperate in integrating it with the scorpius till the indigenous pod is ready.

HAL is looking at production optimization. Changing Radar and EW for a tiny order is just stupid.

[Bharadwaj]

Stupid or not the commitment was made at the start of the process. I do understand Hal’s conundrum as a listed company that has to take decisions in national interest and not fully in line with profit making ideas. Let us hope the upcoming 97 has the Uttam and local ew pod combination from bird number one.

[Cybaru]

The value of whole plane is worth more than the radar itself. That is the need of the hour. Lots of old stuff is getting retired. If the radar is going to delay then it is okay to skip it for now. There will be 97 Mk1As and lots of MKIs that will need updating.

[Prem Kumar]

Dick-move by HAL and they must be raked over the coals for this

Its going to be at least 3 years before the Mk1a 41st aircraft is to be delivered. By then, all certifications would be completed and adequate lead-time available for Astra Microwave

Delays in HAL's Mk1a deliveries are due to their own lackadaisical approach, poor planning/forecasting vis-a-vis GE engine availability & their usual overpromise & under-deliver approach

If what the DRDO official says is true, it looks like the testbeds given for Uttam were the older Tejas models, while ELTA got the Mk1a prototypes. Were there favoritism or kickbacks involved? I am sure the Yehudis would have pulled out all stops to ensure that they sell 43 more radars to us

The earlier Uttam gets production experience in Mk1a, the better it is for follow-up Mk1a orders and for Mk2

I hope Rajnath Singh intervenes

[Aditya_V]

This can only work if the plan is to have 2 separate line MK1A , Germany 404 with Elta radar, MK1B with Kaveri and Uttam radar, given GE committing to only 12 engines a year and HAL still progressing with 24-30 Aircraft pipeline, this seems to be the plan.

Do we have any official confirmation, cause on Twitter Pakistan was supposed to receive 40 F-35 aircraft starting Jun-25, which their Defense minister denies any deal in place, in 2016, Pakistan was supposed to 10 Chinese subs by 2025? Cause on Media/ Social Media there seems to be a lot of rumor mongering to push for orders of Rafale/ F-25 etc etc. This has been happening over the last 26 years I have been following defense related news

[Bharadwaj]

As per writetake Anant's interview with Dr.Kamath today, the Kaveri is purely a dry engine now meant for uavs. The best we can do is to get Safran to accelerate the t-rex m88 and use it for the second batch of 97 mk-1a. Certification tests on the Tejas will be expensive and time consuming but so will losing supply to sanctions/Uncle Sam moods in the case of G.E. This may be a move worth pursuing.

[ashishvikas]

Deliver GE engines on priority, conclude joint production deal, Rajnath tells US Defence Secy Hegseth

https://theprint.in/defence/deliver-ge- ... h/2676525/

[Cyrano]

Planes are designed around engines. Changing the engine will lead to several years of testing. We are stuck with this 404 engine not found error. That's the uncomfortable truth.

[Prem Kumar]

Planes are designed around engines. Changing the engine will lead to several years of testing. We are stuck with this 404 engine not found error. That's the uncomfortable truth.

Good one!

[Jay]

Deliver GE engines on priority, conclude joint production deal, Rajnath tells US Defence Secy Hegseth

https://theprint.in/defence/deliver-ge- ... h/2676525/

Another ''kadi nindha' from our esteemed defense minister rajnath singh ji. I have to say that after ak anthony, I never though there would be another do-nothing defense minister, especially from this govt, but rajnath singh ji is working extra hard to surpass anthony ji. From project after project, all of them are mired in this 'negotiate-procure' loop, or in 'development-testing' loop. We are in a rut and the sooner we accept this the better it will be.

[Bharadwaj]

Actual given the mastery ADA has over the claw, fitting the t-rex into the Tejas should come down to minor adjustments in the intakes and engine housing. The flight testing should not take that long. Of course like any certification after redesign it will be expensive. Given that the 97 order is yet to be confirmed, the change can possibly still be done. 404 not found! good one.

[Cyrano]

A new engine will shift the centre of gravity of the plane. Power lines have to be redone, then hydraulics, the FADEC, then the avionics, the CLAW, depending on the new engine's fuel consumption rate across flight regimes the fuel storage and piping, pumps, some more electricals have to be rerouted.. Changing intakes is not a joke. It will be an endless chain of impacts. And if the a/c performance is not as expected in any of these areas, even more tinkering and retesting. It's better to build a completely new plane around the new engine. Then the temptation to do better than what was done with LCA/404 will be very hard to resist. So we will end up trying to make a totally new and hopefully better plane with a new engine. To get it to IOC level readiness we are looking at at least 10-15 years even in mission mode, if not more. But the new plane even if successful may not satisfy IAF's expectations because the world would have moved on by then. And HAL will be left holding the lemon.

We have to secure 404 engine supply from unkil one way or another. Otherwise Tejas will end up like Marut.

[Cyrano]

By the way, imagine for a moment a miracle happens and we have Kaveri delivering the expected thrust across regimes and is found to be reliable. The same as above will apply.

Whoever sold this idea that let's start with LCA on 404 and then replace the 404 with Kaveri has conned the nation, intentionally or not. Perhaps they didn't believe themselves that LCA will fly and perform as well as it does. And we all have ourselves to blame for getting conned.

[Bharadwaj]

A new engine will shift the centre of gravity of the plane. Power lines have to be redone, then hydraulics, the FADEC, then the avionics, the CLAW, depending on the new engine's fuel consumption rate across flight regimes the fuel storage and piping, pumps, some more electricals have to be rerouted.. Changing intakes is not a joke. It will be an endless chain of impacts. And if the a/c performance is not as expected in any of these areas, even more tinkering and retesting. It's better to build a completely new plane around the new engine. Then the temptation to do better than what was done with LCA/404 will be very hard to resist. So we will end up trying to make a totally new and hopefully better plane with a new engine. To get it to IOC level readiness we are looking at at least 10-15 years even in mission mode, if not more. But the new plane even if successful may not satisfy IAF's expectations because the world would have moved on by then. And HAL will be left holding the lemon.

We have to secure 404 engine supply from unkil one way or another. Otherwise Tejas will end up like Marut.

Cmon Sir 10-15 years? I know it is ADA and HAL but still this is a bit too much. One of the Tejas prototypes was already well up the road of accepting the r-93. This is not a complete redesign- it's a major change which can be taken to production in 3-4 years max.

[Cyrano]

Any examples in the aviation world where a high performance fighter plane changed engine? That would help appreciate where your confident estimate is coming from.

[Bharadwaj]

Any examples in the aviation world where a high performance fighter plane changed engine? That would help appreciate where your confident estimate is coming from.

Not where it has been seen through but certainly the Rafale where there were issues and a change to iirc 404 was considered well into development. The tejas mk2 would certainly have had a very similar schedule even if the ej200 variant was selected. The yf-17 became the f-18 very quickly despite the ge404 being a substantially bigger engine than the yj101.

[Bharadwaj]

The m88 trex is also substantially smaller than the 404 so fitment and intake design will not be as much a challenge as a bigger engine. It will generate more wet thrust so may even have a performance benefit. Fuel efficiency is a wash between the two according to publicly available figures.

[Cyrano]

Really? Why would Dassault consider ge 404 with Safran / Snecma producing engines at home since decades? You have a source for this?

[Bharadwaj]

It was in a paperback a longtime back. The m88 was not exactly the finished and refined product that it is now.

[Bharadwaj]

I'll be dammed... the rafale prototype even had ge404 fitted

[Cyrano]

The m88 trex is also substantially smaller than the 404 so fitment and intake design will not be as much a challenge as a bigger engine. It will generate more wet thrust so may even have a performance benefit. Fuel efficiency is a wash between the two according to publicly available figures.

Your handle Bharadwaj is a vedic sage to whom many great works are attributed including certain works on flying machines according to some scholars. It's also my gothram. With such an illustrious handle I really hope you know what you are talking about.

[Bharadwaj]

What is more important is that we all hope our decision makers know what they are doing in sticking with the 404. This whole Lindsey Graham Ukraine business has got me thinking very differently about the so called strategic relationship.

[Cyrano]

Dassault made 2 prototypes, first the Super Mirage 4000 with 2 Snecma M53 engines in 1979 to master the twin engine configuration, aerodynamics and a bunch of cutting edge tech for the time, and then the Rafale A (new intakes) with a pair of F404-GE-400 engines and then first substituted one engine with the M88, and then both engines were M88. This took them 8 years from 86 to 94.

M88 Trex was just announced this june, they have not said when they plan to deliver the first prototypes. My guess is that it will take atleast 5 years ie 2030 to be put in a plane.

However LCA is a single engine fighter and engine change comes with lots of risks, be it trex or a mythical Kaveri. And HAL is no Dassault, their cumulative experiences are very different, one has innovated constantly and took huge risks, the other didn't need to for various reasons, and LCA is an ADA design, not HAL's.

The point being LCA with a different single engine is quite an uncharted territory for india/HAL. I'm making a realistic guess when I say 10-15 years, not pessimistic.

[pravula]

Any examples in the aviation world where a high performance fighter plane changed engine? That would help appreciate where your confident estimate is coming from.

SU57, J10, J12, JF17 on top of my head.

[Cyrano]

Thanks, are there any serious plans by HAL to replace the 404? With what alternative engine ? I think announcing such a project and taking concrete steps like evaluating French and Russian engines itself will be a wake up call for unkil.

[bala]

Bharadwaj is a vedic sage to whom many great works are attributed including certain works on flying machines

The flying machines are ancient Vimanas. Here is the list of ancient text on the subject:

Brihad Vaimanika Shastra of Maharishi Bharadwaja,
Vimanachandrika of Acharya Narayan Muni,
Viman yantra of Maharishi Shownik,
Yantra Kalp by Maharishi Garg Muni,
Viman Bindu of Acharya Vachaspati,
Vimana Gyanarka Prakashika of Maharishi Dhundiraj.

Vaimaanika Shastra explains in detail the metals and alloys and other required material, which can make an aircraft imperishable in any condition. Planes which will not break (abhedya), or catch fire (adaahya) and which cannot be cut (achchedya) have been described.

As per Vimanaka Shastra: mercury was held in 8 temperature and pressure resistant Soda Lime Glass containers. Yet it is someone else who invented glass.

Here are some more stealth factors that were considered in ancient times:

In Vimana Yantra Sarvaswa, with eight chapters of diagrams, it is mentioned, in great detail, how to make a plane motionless, how to make it invisible, how to change over to aether (akasha) power from solar power in inter planetary travels, distant radar monitoring of other aircraft, how to listen to sounds inside other planes and underwater craft (as Vimanas go under water too), faster than light communications, secrets of constructing planes which cannot be monitored or destroyed.

[Cyrano]

Thanks Bala saar!
If anyone wants to discuss sage Bharadwaj, there is a thread in stratfor.

[Vayutuvan]

Cyrano gaaru

Is it this stratfor? https://worldview.stratfor.com/topic

[Vayutuvan]

Planes are designed around engines. Changing the engine will lead to several years of testing. We are stuck with this 404 engine not found error. That's the uncomfortable truth.

and 414 is "414 URI Too Long"

Ref: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/doc ... Status/414

[Cyrano]

If that's not a conspiracy I don't know what is

[Bharadwaj]

Well ladies and gents I leave the following here for your kind persual

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 234157.cms

They still have to complete full astra integration. I give up. Somebody ping me when the first mk1a get delivered. Probably September at the earliest. And the 2052 for the rest of the 83 builds is also confirmed.