Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

[pravula]

There are two boxes, AFAIK, they both collect the same data points (its designed in that way to increase the chances of finding atleast one). In this event, both were recovered, so I would expect only one will be unsealed initially and the second one will be used to validate the conclusions.

[chetak]

There are two boxes, AFAIK, they both collect the same data points (its designed in that way to increase the chances of finding atleast one). In this event, both were recovered, so I would expect only one will be unsealed initially and the second one will be used to validate the conclusions.

pravula ji,


The opening of the black box and all connected processes there after are video graphed by multiple high definition cameras covering different views from different angles and time stamped, accompanied by running commentary in sync with the video.

[A_Gupta]

“Following the tragedy of Air India Flight 171 in Ahmedabad, which took place on June 12, India's principal aviation safety watchdog, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), has ordered the termination of three separate Air India employees due to lapses in operational safety.”
https://simpleflying.com/authorities-or ... l%20safety.

[vera_k]

Missed this report. IMO this explains why so many AI flights are seen to be taking no risks with technical issues.

Crash: India B788 at Ahmedabad on Jun 12th 2025, lost height shortly after takeoff, no thrust reported

On Jun 17th 2025 an official, a former Air India Captain trained by the Captain of the accident flight, stated, that the CVR has been successfully read out, the voices on the CVR are very clear. It is becoming gradually clear from the newly emerging evidence that there was probably zero negligence in the cockpit, the crew did not give up until the very last moment. The probability of a technical cause is high. A preliminary report by India's AAIB can be expected in a few days.

On Jun 20th 2025 government officials stated, that India's AAIB is currently looking into another case of dual engine problems with an A321 that happened in London Gatwick in 2020, see: Incident: Titan A321 at London on Feb 26th 2020, left engine surged, engine stall indications for right engine, that was caused by fuel contamination. It appears on preliminary findings, that there was no error in the cockpit, it appears that as soon as the flight became airborne the power failure occurred leaving the aircraft unable to climb to a safe altitude.

[vera_k]

Found this Kanishka CVR transcript today.

AI 182 CVR

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1938146937972396347 ---> AI171 black box data successfully accessed, data downloaded at AAIB lab. Analysis underway. Official statement:

[pravula]

As I had theorized, they are starting with only one box at a time...

There are two boxes, AFAIK, they both collect the same data points (its designed in that way to increase the chances of finding atleast one). In this event, both were recovered, so I would expect only one will be unsealed initially and the second one will be used to validate the conclusions.

[rahulm]

Deleted.

[vera_k]

Previous instance of dual engine failure, but happened after the plane was on the ground. Couldn't find more about what caused it though.

ANA Boeing 787 Dreamliner Suffers Dual Engine Failure On Landing

[chetak]

This has taken on geopolitical dimensions

[vera_k]

I hadn't made this connection yet. Air India has received many bomb threats over the last year. And this flight had a former chief minister on board.

Sabotage angle being looked into

[A_Gupta]

Previous instance of dual engine failure, but happened after the plane was on the ground. Couldn't find more about what caused it though.

ANA Boeing 787 Dreamliner Suffers Dual Engine Failure On Landing

From the above, they are being really thorough!


“…we are looking at CCTV footage of Ahmedabad over the last 30 days. Those who came and those who went through screening, all the passports,”

[Cyrano]

Govt agencies are quiet. Along with the DFDR and CVR analysis, I think a lot of clean up is happening in AI, other domestic airlines and airports. NaMo never let's a crisis go waste.

[chetak]

[Cyrano]

AAIB has submitted it's preliminary report to the GoI today. Let's see if anything is communicated to the public.

[arvin]

https://www.financialexpress.com/india- ... h/3907442/

The preliminary report includes aircraft information, crew details, weather conditions, aerodrome data, a description of the accident, and the current status of the investigation, but it does not yet include findings, probable causes of the accident, or safety recommendations, a senior official told FE

So most likely only black box data will be out.

[Tanaji]

A recent report says that the enquiry is looking at if the fuel control switch was disabled

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... -switches/

All speculation of course. Anything to blame the pilot ….

[Ambar]

No one has placed blame on the pilots, and the investigation is still incomplete. At this point, there are more questions than answers. Initially, the DGCA indicated that the CVR and FDR were too damaged for data extraction and requested the NTSB's assistance. However, the PMO intervened directly on the DGCA to pressing them to retain the investigation within India.Compared to the usual uneasiness that follows a Boeing crash, none of the international 787 operators grounded their fleets or even initiated checks for potential software issues. Meanwhile, the head of ICAO began pressuring Indian authorities to expedite the investigation despite no formal safety advisories being issued, which is also unusual after such a major crash.

Since arriving at the AAIB, the flight recorders have been placed under 24/7 surveillance. Adding to the mystery, we now have Z-level security with commandos guarding the DG of AAIB. There are also reports that investigative agencies have reviewed not just hours, but days of surveillance footage from in and around Ahmedabad airport.

This suggests something far more troubling than just pilot error or even a suicide. All signs seem to point toward deliberate and malicious sabotage. If the intention was to blame pilots or maintenance, then the PMO wouldn't have intervened and let the investigation take place at the NTSB HQ.

[Tanaji]

I was referring to the report linked above and not any official body. The fuel control switches can only be moved by the pilots and have measures to prevent inadvertent movement. Once set before takeoff they are not moved.

Again this is all speculation I suspect by the report.

[Vayutuvan]

Previous instance of dual engine failure, but happened after the plane was on the ground. Couldn't find more about what caused it though.

ANA Boeing 787 Dreamliner Suffers Dual Engine Failure On Landing

From the above 2019 article, this caught my eye.

Simple Flying will provide an update as soon as it becomes available.

Maybe that website did or everybody simply moved on. "Nothing to see here" from Boeing?

[A_Gupta]

The Japan authority never issued a report, at least, I could not find it here.

https://jtsb.mlit.go.jp/airrep.html

[Vayutuvan]

The Japan authority never issued a report, at least, I could not find it here.

https://jtsb.mlit.go.jp/airrep.html

That is odd. That is a serious problem isn't it? Both the engines shutting down, I mean.

[jrjrao]

WSJ "Exclusive" report:

Air India Probe Puts Early Focus on Pilots’ Actions and Plane’s Fuel Switches:
Investigation into June crash so far hasn’t pointed to problem with the Boeing 787 Dreamliner or its GE Aerospace engines

Quick Summary:

**The Air India crash investigation focuses on pilot actions, not a Boeing 787 Dreamliner problem, per early U.S. assessments.

**Preliminary findings suggest fuel flow switches to the engines were turned off, causing apparent loss of thrust after takeoff, but the reason is unclear.

**U.S. officials have privately expressed frustration with the pace of the Indian-led probe, including black box analysis and information sharing.

[vera_k]

Another tidbit. Wonder why they felt that security in Delhi could not be assured.
Could it be a case of state level authorities wanting to analyze the data themselves given a former CM was on board?

Indian authorities had earlier wanted to transport the plane’s black boxes—the flight-data and cockpit voice recorders—away from Delhi, where the country recently opened a new lab for analyzing such accident data, to another secure location, according to some people familiar with the matter.

[A_Gupta]

I wouldn’t trust WSJ. The whole game has been to cause volatility in Boeing stock, enabling speculators in the know to profit. So the cycle has gone, the daily headlines that flow across my laptop - it wasn’t the plane, Boeing stock goes up, followed by “investigators are looking at” some or other aspect of the plane, and the stock swoons. The mini-fortunes made from the misfortunes of the crash victims sicken me.

[arvin]

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 395150.cms

Air india preliminary report

[vera_k]

From AAIB's site.

Report

The aircraft achieved the maximum recorded airspeed of 180 Knots IAS at about 08:08:42
UTC and immediately thereafter, the Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned
from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec. The Engine N1
and N2 began to decrease from their take-off values as the fuel supply to the engines was cut
off.

In the cockpit voice recording, one of the pilots is heard asking the other why did he cutoff.
The other pilot responded that he did not do so.

As per the EAFR, the Engine 1 fuel cutoff switch transitioned from CUTOFF to RUN at about
08:08:52 UTC. The APU Inlet Door began opening at about 08:08:54 UTC, consistent with
the APU Auto Start logic. Thereafter at 08:08:56 UTC the Engine 2 fuel cutoff switch also
transitions from CUTOFF to RUN.

[Tanaji]

This is scary if one of the pilots indeed do this. If pilots cant be trusted no one can be.

[Vayutuvan]

So in 10 seconds they toggled back. Those 10 seconds duration was the critical period. Is it possible that there is race condition either in the software or the controller electronics that led to cycling and the auto start to happen?

Going by the above, with high probability this is not a pilot error.

[Vayutuvan]

This is scary if one of the pilots indeed do this. If pilots cant be trusted no one can be.

But they did not, if I understand the CVR conversation correctly.

This part

In the cockpit voice recording, one of the pilots is heard asking the other why did he cutoff.
The other pilot responded that he did not do so.

[nachiket]

If it was a software error, the switches would not have moved and the pilot would not have noticed them or have been able to set them back to RUN. I would be interested to know if they had a jumpseat passenger in the cockpit, like a deadheading crew member or someone who could have done it. The preliminary report does not mention this however.

[Vayutuvan]

Would the switches be accessible to

> a jumpseat passenger in the cockpit, like a deadheading crew member
?

My guess is that (long time back I had a glance into a cockpit of a plane, pilot and copilot are seated such that, if anybody accesses any of the dials or switches they have to reach out from behind the pilot/co-pilot to do so. One or both would have noticed immediately that somebody else is trying to access the dashboard.

[Ambar]

So in 10 seconds they toggled back. Those 10 seconds duration was the critical period. Is it possible that there is race condition either in the software or the controller electronics that led to cycling and the auto start to happen?

Going by the above, with high probability this is not a pilot error.

There is no automatic cutoff, shutting down the engines requires a manual action unlocking the switch guard and deliberately pressing the cutoff switch. Pilots who regularly fly Boeings, including the 787 have confirmed this. Given the sequence of events and the limited time available after VLOF , there simply wasn't enough time to recycle the engines. This strongly suggests a deliberate action to cut off the engines which aligns with the recorded exchange where one pilot questions the other about the engine shutdown.

There were clues that the authorities and the aviation industry knew it was the human factor and not machinery right from the beginning. The security around AAIB office, other operators of Boeing 787 not issuing any fresh guidance or procedural changes,ICAO staying completely silent except for asking DGCA to complete the investigation asap all pointed to the human element. It is now almost confirmed after DGCA/AAIB said there are no recommended actions to B787-8 and/or GE GEnx-1B engine operators and manufacturers in their report.

If it is confirmed that it was a pilot murder-suicide, then it isn't exactly unprecedented although extremely rate. There are atleast six previous instances including Germanwings in 2015, and more recently China Eastern Airlines in 2022. I suspect the famous MH370 disappearence was also a deliberate pilot action.

[Tanaji]

Vayutuvanji,

Fuel switch cutoff requires a deliberate action where the switch needs to be lifted above a ridge and then put into off position. Both switches also have metal guards on either side to prevent inadvertent movement. Given that both switches went into cutoff one second apart, this indicates a deliberate action.

[Tanaji]

There is no mention of someone in the cockpit jump seat in the report. The report does not state who said those words of why did you cutoff , so we don’t know if it was pilot or co pilot. The copilot was the one flying the aircraft. Obviously the investigators know who said what.

If you recall there were reports of the investigators looking at CcTV many days before the accident. This now makes sense as it is pilot murder suicide.

The 10 seconds can be explained away to pilot trying to fix the problem - realising the issue and fixing it while simultaneously trying to fly the craft.

[Vayutuvan]

We can't say for sure which pilot is lying. The one to ask the question might have wanted to put the suspicion on the second one or it was genuine question and the second lied. Did one of the pilots get replaced after they got into the plane by a passenger? Then there won't be any change in the crew and passenger lists. Would the pilots stay put in their seats once they start preparing to take off? What if one of them had to go to WC?

[Vayutuvan]

Anyway, I don't think we can divine this one out through deductive logic. Atleast, I can't.

[vera_k]

Is it physically possible for a human to flip both of these switches to the wrong position in 1 second?
Or is the 1 second a red herring because telemetry is not captured at that fidelity?

[Ambar]

Is it physically possible for a human to flip both of these switches to the wrong position in 1 second?
Or is the 1 second a red herring because telemetry is not captured at that fidelity?

Depends on the action I suppose. If you notice how small and how closely those switches are placed next to each other, it is physically possible to get past the switch guard, remove the lock by lifting the switches simultaneously and pushing them to cut off position. Probably not how they would do it during regular operations but if you wanted to do it quickly in a single action then yes.

[A_Gupta]

The official report:
https://aaib.gov.in/What's%20New%20Asse ... VT-ANB.pdf

I put a copy on Google Drive:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fk-GkJ ... sp=sharing