Indian Army Aviation

[Manish_P]

https://x.com/Neetivaan/status/1946845293607354562 ---> Basically, it will work but India doesn't know what's inside.

It will work till the time the US decides it shouldn't.

[prashantsharma]

Do you mean the serial was painted on the landing gear strut or hub?

Blurring out the serial number. But Twitter has images with serial number.

So much for confidentiality

[Rakesh]

Do you mean the serial was painted on the landing gear strut or hub?

My apologies for misunderstanding your question, but the only blur I saw in the photo was below the tail rotor. And that blur is the serial number.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1947884275694502359 ---> The 3 Apache attack helicopters that were delivered to the Indian Army yesterday have Indian-built main fuselages—a little known but major aviation outsourcing success story. I report details.

[Rakesh]

Why Drones Won’t Replace Helicopters

On this episode of The Sandeep Unnithan Show, former Army Aviation Corps Director General Lt Gen Ajay Kumar Suri (retd) explains why manned–unmanned teaming (MUM-T) will define the future of warfare. He reveals how attack helicopters like the Apache, Rudra and Prachand will operate alongside drones, controlling them directly in battle. Lt Gen Suri (retd) also discusses the Cheetah helicopters that remain the lifeline of high-altitude operations, their planned replacement by the Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) and Reconnaissance & Surveillance Helicopter (RSH), and why the Corps shelved plans for fixed-wing aircraft.

[bharathp]

ok, my main reverse engineering of indian mil logic on importing USA made Apaches which have US based "threat" library and basing it in rajasthan. (obviously for TSP centric warfare). please allow a noob to put his thoughts here. and somehow it just.. doesnt make sense to me.

- TSP has cheeni land based systems now (MBTs) are all china made.. with i believe T-80 from ukraine - all "should" be a "threat" to usa - hence should be ahem - pre-loaded. cos it would be funny if f-16s are loaded as threat into an apache
- however, the APCs of TSP are mostly US made (m113) or based on m113 and made in house (claimed - but who knows) - which should NOT be in that said threat library.
- most of the other "IFVs" are also US based stuff
- other helicopters in paki service are mostly US based (bell ah1?) and not sur ehow many from cheen.

so, for my puny mind, it feels like we got such expesnsive toys for only the cheen MBTs - please tell me I am grossly wrong.

[pravula]

ok, my main reverse engineering of indian mil logic on importing USA made Apaches which have US based "threat" library and basing it in rajasthan. (obviously for TSP centric warfare). please allow a noob to put his thoughts here. and somehow it just.. doesnt make sense to me.

- TSP has cheeni land based systems now (MBTs) are all china made.. with i believe T-80 from ukraine - all "should" be a "threat" to usa - hence should be ahem - pre-loaded. cos it would be funny if f-16s are loaded as threat into an apache
- however, the APCs of TSP are mostly US made (m113) or based on m113 and made in house (claimed - but who knows) - which should NOT be in that said threat library.
- most of the other "IFVs" are also US based stuff
- other helicopters in paki service are mostly US based (bell ah1?) and not sur ehow many from cheen.

so, for my puny mind, it feels like we got such expesnsive toys for only the cheen MBTs - please tell me I am grossly wrong.

Let me try to answer your question with some of mine: Will an Iranian F-14 not show up as a threat to USAF/USN? Or the F-4s? Or the Chinese Su-27/30 clones to S-400 systems?

[bharathp]

pravula jee, agreed with you that Iranian f-14 and f-4s will show up as threat for a US made threat library.but it should NOT show up as an adversary for us (We are onlee fighting TSP onlee.. ) and thats because Iran is threat to US - TSP is not. so why would an actvely supplied/replenished f-16 by US, (or their IFVs) which are maintained by US's stationed officers in TSP be showing up as threat on a US based threat library

your counter question provided some inputs but dint really clear my mind. thank you for trying to help out.

[pravula]

pravula jee, agreed with you that Iranian f-14 and f-4s will show up as threat for a US made threat library.but it should NOT show up as an adversary for us (We are onlee fighting TSP onlee.. ) and thats because Iran is threat to US - TSP is not. so why would an actvely supplied/replenished f-16 by US, (or their IFVs) which are maintained by US's stationed officers in TSP be showing up as threat on a US based threat library

your counter question provided some inputs but dint really clear my mind. thank you for trying to help out.

Threat library is never static and updatable. Its not just image/shape, but other factors also come into play, hence my comment about S-400 and SU-30MKK. Will our systems not see a J-16 as a threat?

[bharathp]

Meanwhile, the reality of the Army's acquisition of the AH-64 Apache. Army HQ made this bed, now they can have fun lying in it. For all the folks who were peddling (led by the Risk Assessor-in-Chief) US fighters for India, shame on you people.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1946815322386022458 ---> This document gives us a beautiful sneak peek into what Apache is and how it thinks: Let’s break down for our understanding. Key subsystems like MTADS (Targeting) & RFI (Threat Detection) include User Data Modules (UDM) that house threat libraries & prioritization logic.

These UDMs are: CLASSIFIED SECRET/CONFIDENTIAL
• Hardware-locked
• Preloaded with threat data derived from US intel
• Non-extractable or modifiable by foreign users (including India) - In short you want to add more threat pay Boeing.
• Internal comms use encrypted MIL-STD-1553 / 1760 buses.
• External links (MUMT, Video Downlink, Link 16) are filtered & don’t expose core targeting logic.

So in a nutshell, India operates them. But the US decides how they think. Thank you @Amitraaz for the extract.

https://x.com/Neetivaan/status/1946845293607354562 ---> Here's a simple explanation for those who didn't understand:

* Apache Helis have a special radar and targeting system called as MTADS and FCR, which helps to track, lock and destroy enemy targets.
* But the document says some parts of the system are secret and not fully shared with India.
* The US provides this system in a way that:

- can't be opened, modified or understood by India
- encrypted and locked using US Intelligence data

Basically, it will work but India doesn't know what's inside.

pravula saar, threat library can be updated if that was in our hands. apparently the golden bird is so golden only the golden workers can add more to the threat library, hence giving them intel and paying for giving them intel (not them paying us for giving them intel).

it may come pre-loaded with cheen stuff and not with khaan stuff.

the whole issue with apaches (or rafales for that matter) is the (in)ability to use Indian MC so we could (not) add it to our network centric abilities.

[pravula]

To be fair, we also paid France to integrate/add a whole bunch of basic stuff, like IRST. So why this heartburn paying Boeing?

[Rakesh]

To be fair, we also paid France to integrate/add a whole bunch of basic stuff, like IRST. So why this heartburn paying Boeing?

IRST was integrated onto IAF Rafales.

India’s First French-Built Rafale Fighters Have Finally Arrived
https://www.twz.com/35236/indias-first- ... ly-arrived
30 July 2025

Indian Rafales feature an improved version of the Thales Front Sector Optronics (FSO) system, which includes SAGEM infra-red search-and-track (IRST).

[pravula]

Yes, but it was part of India Specific enhancements right? That cost us a non-trivial amount of $$$. My reply was to viewtopic.php?p=2658743#p2658743, where he implied that we having to pay Boeing to update their library makes Apache a bad decision.

[Rakesh]

Yes, but it was part of India Specific enhancements right? That cost us a non-trivial amount of $$$. My reply was to viewtopic.php?p=2658743#p2658743, where he implied that we having to pay Boeing to update their library makes Apache a bad decision.

An updated IRST was part of the ISE for the IAF Rafales and the ISE upgrades were not cheap. India paid for portions of the F4 variant

Both you and bharatp have raised interesting questions and comments.

@pravula - Will an Iranian F-14 not show up as a threat to USAF/USN? Or the F-4s? Or the Chinese Su-27/30 clones to S-400 systems?
A. In Op Sindoor, it was a S-400 that took down a Saab Erieye in excess of 350 km. So it can certainly take out a Chinese clone of the Su-27/Su-30. I am not sure if this has occurred, but have Russian S-400 batteries taken down Ukrainian Su-27s or vice versa? And any airworthy F-14s will most certainly show up as threats to the USAF/USN. If the situation in Venezuela goes south, expect their F-16s to be shot down by USN aircraft. The Venezuelan Air Force will not prevail against the USN, no matter how much bravado Maduro displays.

@bharathp - the whole issue with apaches (or rafales for that matter) is the (in)ability to use Indian MC so we could (not) add it to our network centric abilities.
A. This is the problem with all our foreign platforms. Both Apache and Rafale are closed boxes. The only way around this is to design your own platforms. When the threat library is a closed box, it will be challenging to update that library without the intervention of the OEM. The OEM controls what goes into that threat library and what should not.

===========================================

But apart from the threat library, Apache for the Army Aviation Corps and for the Air Force is a bad decision all around. The Apache acquisition by India, is an ego massaging venture for military leadership @ Army HQ and @ Air HQ. In the first two decades of this century, when India-US relations opened...India's military leadership went on a buying spree of US origin military hardware and not thinking long term on the political dangers of operating such hardware. The only caveat to this was the rejection of US fighters in the MMRCA contest, the SE contest, the MRCBF contest and now the MRFA contest.

An IAF Apache that flew to Ladakh last year, suffered a technical malfunction and had to be dismantled into nearly 400 pieces and driven on a truck to a lower altitude. But no senior military leader highlighted this issue. If such a similar incident had occurred to the Prachand, the knives would have been out.

IAF to retrieve Apache from Ladakh on truck
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... -on-truck/
09 Sept 2024