Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

[Prem Kumar]

We should aim to integrate our homegrown ASPJ instead of Scorpious. Our ASPJ will be tightly integrated with the Uttam radar, whose upgraded version is the Virupaksha that will go into the Sukhois

This is all the more reason why we should arm our Tejas MK1a fleet from the 41st aircraft onwards with the Uttam + ASPJ + Astra combo. This same combo will be replicated in Su-30 MKI

If CEMILAC or ADA/DRDO is genuinely not able to meet the timelines for readiness or certification (which is HAL's claim), then they need to be whipped into shape to do so. OTOH, if this is HAL's "deflect the blame" game, then they should get the stick

Either which way, the 41st aircraft is at least 2 - 3 years away. Its completely feasible to get the necessary tests & certifications completed in that timeframe. ADA/DRDO must not think that "Mk1a is done & we can focus on Mk2". They cannot - not yet. This needs to be driven in mission-mode till we see these aircraft in service in large numbers

[Sumeet]

I am very well aware of ASPJ project. I am talking about escort jamming, its different. We need those along with weapons like Spear EW to penentrate IADs.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/19 ... 9166331339 --->

DAC clears modification for 84 Super Sukhoi Upgrade. CCS process to begin. 5 years for R&D and the upgrade afterwards.

Will Take About 5 Yrs To Complete Sukhoi 30 Upgrade: HAL

[VinodTK]

DRDO's ASTRA: BVRAAM missile successfully test-fired; IAF conducts trial from Su-30 MKI

NEW DELHI: Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Indian Air Force (IAF) on Friday successfully conducted trials of the Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air missile (BVRAAM) ‘ASTRA’ with an indigenous RF seeker against high-speed unmanned aerial targets at different ranges.

Conducted off the coast of Chandipur in Odisha, the test validated the Astra missile’s advanced precision and lethality. The missile scored a direct hit on a flying target, with all onboard subsystems performing flawlessly and meeting the mission’s technical objectives.

"DRDO and @IAF_MCC conducted successful trials of Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air missile (BVRAAM) ‘ASTRA’ with indigenous RF seeker against high-speed unmanned aerial targets at different ranges, target aspects and launch platform conditions from Su-30 Mk-I platform off the coast of Odisha," DRDO posted on X.

ASTRA is designed to take out aerial targets at distances exceeding 100 kilometres. Its cutting-edge guidance and navigation systems give it the ability to strike with high accuracy. The missile has already been inducted into service with the Indian Air Force (IAF), bolstering the nation's air defence framework.
The success of this trial is seen as a key milestone toward the operational deployment of the LCA AF MK1A variant, which is a more advanced version of the indigenous fighter jet. It reflects the increasing maturity of India’s homegrown defence production ecosystem.

Behind the achievement is the coordinated effort of multiple organisations: the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), DRDO, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DG-AQA), Indian Air Force, and the test range team.

Defence Minister Rajnath Singh lauded the teams involved in the successful mission, praising the synergy among the various stakeholders. Dr Samir V Kamat, chairman of DRDO and Secretary of the Department of Defence Research and Development, also commended the collaborative spirit of scientists, engineers, and technicians who contributed to the milestone test.

This successful firing of Astra from the LCA platform not only demonstrates the missile's capabilities but also reinforces India’s growing technological edge in aerial warfare systems.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/DefenceDecode/status/1946444255905353765 ---> As part of Project Virupaksha, aimed at upgrading the avionics suite of the IAF's Su-30MKI platform, LRDE — under the aegis of DRDO has issued a Request for Proposal (RFP) to onboard a capable Development-cum-Production Partner (DcPP) for the co-development and manufacture of a cutting-edge AESA radar system tailored for the aircraft.

https://x.com/DefenceDecode/status/1946892975797158096 ---> Su-30MKI Power Availability with AL-31FP vs VIRUPAKSHA integration. The Su-30MKI is powered by two AL-31FP engines. Each AL-31FP drives one 30 kVA AC generator and one 25 kW DC generator. So total available electrical power is: 30 + 25 = 55 kW/engine. Total = 110 kW for the entire aircraft. Not all of that is available for the radar. Roughly 30–40% is budgeted for avionics, sensors, radar, EW, and mission systems. Estimated available for radar + sensors: 30–35 kW

Radar Power Requirement "Virupaksha AESAR"
~1,000 – 1,500 GaN TRMs
~ 10–15 W/TRM

So total radar power = 12–18 kW (realistically, ~15 kW). Remaining: 15–20 kW for EW, FLIR, communications, etc. So technically Su-30MKI has enough electrical power margin to accommodate the Virupaksha radar, even with other sensors active.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1950576206375743833 ---> As Lead System Integrator, HAL has undertaken design & development for indigenous upgrade of Su-30MKI:

- Revamp of avionic architecture with integration of indigenous systems like Mission Computer
- Improved sensors: AESA Radar, EO/IR
- Improved EW suite
- Indigenous weapon control systems & weapons
- Higher Size displays
- Sensor fusion, Net Centric warfare capability & more
- HAL is developing Smart Multi-Function Display (SMFD), Software for Mission Computer (MC), Head Up Display & Up-Front Control Panel & Control Display Unit

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/Sputnik_India/status/1955243252363210982 ---> INDIA’S SKY DOMINATION PLAN: Su-30 Upgrades, 5th-Gen Choices & More. Group Captain Sajan Shivraman (retd) breaks it down for Sputnik India:

(02:04) - Why BrahMos fits Su-30 perfectly
(03:23) - Su-30MKI's secret upgrade plan
(05:39) - Drones vs manned fighters
(09:27) - Main reason Su-57 stands out
(12:35) - F-35: accident-prone?
(15:37) - AMCA over foreign jets

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/connect_rishav/status/1939929422309589088 ---> Indian Air Force Sukhoi Su-30MKI, armed with a KAB-500KR TV-guided/electro-optical air to surface munition.

[uddu]

https://x.com/FighterPiloting/status/19 ... 8421943774 ---> Super Sukhoi upgrade of engines has already started. Koraput plant of AL-31FP engines are upgrading the engines with AL41 components to double it's life, improve SFC, mission performance etc. As usual, IAF is operating silently, without much fanfare.

https://x.com/shreedharsingh9/status/19 ... 4797325442 ---> HAL has already increased the TBO of AL 31FP engine from 500 hours to 1,000 hours using indigenous components. we have developed second gen single crystal blades and HPT disks for AL31 engines. Now we are upgrading AL-31 with AL41 components to double its life, improve SFC and performance.

[VKumar]

The SU MKI UPG makes it a growler, IMHO.

[Rakesh]

BEST NEWS OF THE DAY! YES!!!!!!!!!!

VIDEO: https://x.com/defencealerts/status/1974027728882905190 ---> About 75% of the Indian Air Force’s Su-30MKI fleet - roughly 200 aircraft - is slated for the ‘Super Sukhoi’ upgrade program: IAF Chief. This extensive modernization will significantly enhance avionics, radar, electronic warfare systems, cockpit displays, and long range weapon integration, ensuring the fleet remains effective against modern threats.

[Manish_P]

BEST NEWS OF THE DAY! YES!!!!!!!!!!

VIDEO: https://x.com/defencealerts/status/1974027728882905190 ---> About 75% of the Indian Air Force’s Su-30MKI fleet - roughly 200 aircraft - is slated for the ‘Super Sukhoi’ upgrade program: IAF Chief. This extensive modernization will significantly enhance avionics, radar, electronic warfare systems, cockpit displays, and long range weapon integration, ensuring the fleet remains effective against modern threats.

Why only 75% Chief. Do the whole 100%. After all there is no limit to what we can buy eh....

(Begging your pardon, Admiral ji. For pinching below quote from your post from another thread to be deliberately cheeky here )

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/1974031018890829903 ---> On S-400, Air Chief Marshal AP Singh says, "Obviously, that has done good. So, there's a requirement to have more such; there is no limit to numbers that you can buy. Again, I'm keeping quiet on what the plan is... It has proved to be a good weapon system. We have our own system also developing, so we will take a call on that."

[Cybaru]

The MKI upgrade and 97 order of Tejas and perhaps 114 Rafales will take away a large chunk of IAF budgets for a while.

[gakakkad]

^ budget is growing at 10% + cagr.

[uddu]

The MKI upgrade and 97 order of Tejas and perhaps 114 Rafales will take away a large chunk of IAF budgets for a while.

Su-30MKI upgrade and Tejas are the necessity. Rafale order can be moved to MK2 and either money saved or more MK2 for the price of Rafale can be ordered.

[bala]

Sorry in my limited understanding I am not getting the point of Rafale purchase beyond what we have now. Can someone sum up why Rafale has become the IAF's darling aircraft compared to Su-30 MKI. I understand rafale are the medium cover craft whereas Su-30 MKI are top cover. If India were to make a TEDBF type aircraft would that not suffice for the medium cover role for the IAF. What exactly are we getting with Rafale in terms of capability which the IAF is so enamoured. Tis twin engine etc is understandable, so is the Su-30MKI. I don't see any great advantage with the Rafale.

[LakshmanPST]

^^^
One reason why IAF prefers Western planes is due to the engines...
Western Engines have better lifespan, power output, fuel efficiency, reliability, maintainability, less overall weight/dimensions etc. compared to Russian engines...
----
IAF requirement is, so called, Medium Weight category, which is Mirage 2000, MIG29 Class...
The ideal jet is Tejas Mk2, which is not yet ready...
Except F16 and Gripen, no other single engine fighter is available in the market...

Rafale is the best option available out there considering both technical and political reasons...

TEDBF/ORCA is not even being considered by IAF... Even if IAF wants it, it won't be ready until post 2040s...
----
6 Rafale and 6 Tejas Mk2 will replace 3 Mirage 2000s and 3 MIG29s, while also filling 6 additional squadrons...
If Tejas Mk2 is not ready for production by 2032, buying 6 Rafales will also work as a back-up plan to maintain current squadron numbers...

[gakakkad]

^ from what I understand the blades of rolls Royce and American and saffran jet engines are grown as a single crystal . Russkies ,Indians and Chinese haven't been able to grow a single crystal blade that provides long life and durability etc .

Is there a material science guru here who can dive x this ?

[Cybaru]

The MKI upgrade and 97 order of Tejas and perhaps 114 Rafales will take away a large chunk of IAF budgets for a while.

Su-30MKI upgrade and Tejas are the necessity. Rafale order can be moved to MK2 and either money saved or more MK2 for the price of Rafale can be ordered.

That would have been possible had the govt funded Mk2 earlier. They only funded it end of 2022.
Given this, there is a certain amount of risk and the number of aircraft that need to be retired are many.
I think IAF will want a risk mitigation strategy given the combined lack of vision on IAFs side and lethargic movement on the govt side.
Mk1A follow on order will happen - see KH interview.
Also more than 120Mk2 will get ordered.
I still think 114 rafale will happen and then IAF will struggle to update it while the Indian made products have a shorter upgrade lifecycle, prompting IAF to change to Indian made products completely.

IAF needs a complete overhaul. They are totally lost, they can't see the big picture. They are always in tactical mode.

[uddu]

I still think 114 rafale will happen and then IAF will struggle to update it while the Indian made products have a shorter upgrade lifecycle, prompting IAF to change to Indian made products completely.

IAF needs a complete overhaul. They are totally lost, they can't see the big picture. They are always in tactical mode.

This is very much true. Rafale is not MKI'sed like Su-30MKI. Even Su-30MKI faced issues trying to integrate Brahmos. So we will have huge issues with Rafale's in the years to come if the option to go for more Rafales is taken up. And if it's agreed to MKIze the Rafales, the time, effort put into it can be on Tejas MK2 nd higher numbers initial and secondary orders, more production lines etc. Anyway, if today the order placed for Rafale, will need lots of years for production to start within India. Don't think the French will be able to supply quickly either.

[chetak]

^^^
One reason why IAF prefers Western planes is due to the engines...
Western Engines have better lifespan, power output, fuel efficiency, reliability, maintainability, less overall weight/dimensions etc. compared to Russian engines...
----
IAF requirement is, so called, Medium Weight category, which is Mirage 2000, MIG29 Class...
The ideal jet is Tejas Mk2, which is not yet ready...
Except F16 and Gripen, no other single engine fighter is available in the market...

Rafale is the best option available out there considering both technical and political reasons...

TEDBF/ORCA is not even being considered by IAF... Even if IAF wants it, it won't be ready until post 2040s...
----
6 Rafale and 6 Tejas Mk2 will replace 3 Mirage 2000s and 3 MIG29s, while also filling 6 additional squadrons...
If Tejas Mk2 is not ready for production by 2032, buying 6 Rafales will also work as a back-up plan to maintain current squadron numbers...

LakshmanPST ji,


The design philosophy of the russki and western weapon systems (including engines) are very different

The west, often misguidedly ends up using western generated parameters, specifically tailored to appraise and evaluate their own systems made across industrial ecosystems in multiple countries that are all based on a set of common design philosophies and to compare those with similar appearing non western weapon systems, that are very roughly similar but not fully comparable for fit and function, because of their development has been influenced by a different design doctrine. Making such one to one comparisons are often counter productive, leading to erroneous conclusions

Almost all western weapon systems comply broadly to the requirements of a NATO ecosystem, one that emphasizes interoperability, joint operations, and shared logistics

In the earlier days of the post cold war era, there was even an american proposal to use russian airframes and western engines

At one stage, the American company Pratt & Whitney proposed a project to use a Russian-designed airframe, specifically the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29, and integrate it with a Western engine. The proposal was primarily intended for export to certain nations and came after the Cold War. (There was also a serious proposal to buy SU-27 airframes outright from the russians)

Key details of the proposal:

Engine choice: Pratt & Whitney proposed using either its F100-PW-229 or General Electric's F110-GE-129 engine, the same power plants used in the American F-16 fighter jet.

Intended market: This hybrid aircraft was aimed at international customers who were familiar with and had been operating Russian airframes but were looking for more reliable and efficient Western engines. The F-16's engine bay was designed to be adaptable for both Pratt & Whitney and General Electric engines, which gave engineers confidence that a similar integration was feasible for the MiG-29.

Political context: The post-Cold War era brought new opportunities for cooperation and commerce in the aerospace industry. The proposal also reflected the American perception that Russian airframes were robust and agile but their engines were less advanced in terms of efficiency, service life, and technical support.

This project was never fully realized, as the complexity of integrating different countries' systems and political considerations ultimately made it impractical. However, it illustrates a unique period of cross-pollination between American and Russian military aviation technologies









BTW, here are some gyaani babas pontificating on the net, comparing soviet fighter engines based solely on western generated parameters

Is it still true that US fighter engines are better than Russian engines?


Yes. Russian engines have ONE problem. Longevity. While US engines have longevity for 6000 hours. Russian engines just recently achieved longevity of 4000–5000 hours.

On another hand, Russian engines are cheaper to make, purchase and cheaper to maintain, and are more rugged. For example

F100-PW-229EEP (F-16 bll 70). 17,800 lbs dry thrust, 32,500 Afterburner, weighs 3750lbs. 6000 hours life

AL-31FM (SU-27SM) 17,850 lbs dry. 30,300 afterburner. weighs 3,351lbs, and has 4500 hours of life. So the engine has SIMILAR performance on Military power, has less power on Afterburner (to be fair, afterburner rarely used in combat, almost never), it is also 400lbs lighter. BUT it has nearly 30% less lifespan. While Russian engine is LESS expensive, I am not sure that it is also 30% cheaper then F-100 PW229 EEP. Russian engine also uses MORE fuel. With specific consumption 0.790 lb/lbf/h on military thrust, while F100 PW229 EEP uses 0.76 lb/(lb/h) fuel on dry. While Russian engines are cheaper, to produce and maintain, this does NOT make up for their shorter lifespan, and their lower fuel economy. Also, not that Russian engine is about 6% weaker on Full afterburner.

The mean time between overhauls for US fighter engines or any jet engine of any kind is on the order of several thousand hours, when not operating under combat conditions.

The mean time between overhauls for Russian fighter engines or any jet engine of any kind is on the order of two thousand hours, when not operating under combat conditions.

Under combat conditions the times are significantly reduced, to minimize the chance of a catastrophic failure and air frame loss. Russian jets with their already low margins in this regard, are at a significant disadvantage compared to US jets.

[Khalsa]

I think the number of AL31 to airframe is 3:1.
Not the same for GE for Tejas.

Western Engines indeed rule