India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

[ShauryaT]

They wanted to create a vassal state, just like the britshits had done with India, before 1947.

A slave state that is the largest market, with a humongous and low cost work force, as well as a massive resource base, wholly dependent on amrika, completely open and accessible to the deep state, just like they had controlled the "gelf" states, all sewn up and ready to serve amriki interests for many tens of decades.

It was never about the "Russian oil". It was all about controlling Modi ji, or controlling his successor...........

"Give a dog a bad name and hang him" is what trump and his pals are trying to do

Let us assume the above to be true. What capabilities does India have, that is deemed threatening or at the least desirable to the US and India is willing to use these to thwart US goals? Let us leave the morality or desirability or even the viability of the above objectives aside. Imagine a world where it is the law of the fish (matsya) that prevails, where the big fish eats the smaller one. How can India resist or is resisting not just by pleading good reason but with actual counter measures to thwart such objectives?

[chetak]

They wanted to create a vassal state, just like the britshits had done with India, before 1947.

A slave state that is the largest market, with a humongous and low cost work force, as well as a massive resource base, wholly dependent on amrika, completely open and accessible to the deep state, just like they had controlled the "gelf" states, all sewn up and ready to serve amriki interests for many tens of decades.

It was never about the "Russian oil". It was all about controlling Modi ji, or controlling his successor...........

"Give a dog a bad name and hang him" is what trump and his pals are trying to do

Let us assume the above to be true. What capabilities does India have, that is deemed threatening or at the least desirable to the US and India is willing to use these to thwart US goals? Let us leave the morality or desirability or even the viability of the above objectives aside. Imagine a world where it is the law of the fish (matsya) that prevails, where the big fish eats the smaller one. How can India resist or is resisting not just by pleading good reason but with actual counter measures to thwart such objectives?

ShauryaT ji,

when the stupid amrikis facilitated the rise of cheen, did they anticipate what was to come

or did their greed dominate their policies and geopolitical naivety cloud their judgement

Do you think that the amrikis want a repeat of the same scenario and create another monster that will consume them

or are they in a panic mode seeing the rise of India that will, in the days to come, overcome their economy and eclipse their geopolitical stature on the global stage

their empire is in decline, their society is in disarray, and their country is coming apart at the seams

How much longer before the jihadi mobs overrun the streets

when the marauding jihadis rampage through the streets, raping, pillaging, and killing, it's the little fish eat the big fish, not the other way around

just look at nepal, beediland, lanka, maldives, the arab spring and large swathes of eu and britshitistan

and once the dust has settled, the new big fish surface, armed with with bigger guns, and guarded by men with lots of guns

[Rudradev]

Will hypocrisy about ICC matter to a Chump regime that does $2.5B (and increasing) amount of trade with Russia, but sanctions India for buying Russian oil?

Rudradev ji,

"Russian oil" is just a catchphrase used by the trump's amrikis to camouflage their true intent, it is the proverbial hook, their geopolitical veil, on which to hang their true agenda of animus, while plotting to cripple India. This catchphrase also kept the rest of the target states quiet and prevented the amriki prey base from scattering

After the "Russian oil" (had Modi ji complied), it would have been followed up with a series of brazen demands, one after the other, each crippling requirement more outrageous than the last one

They wanted to create a vassal state, just like the britshits had done with India, before 1947.

A slave state that is the largest market, with a humongous and low cost work force, as well as a massive resource base, wholly dependent on amrika, completely open and accessible to the deep state, just like they had controlled the "gelf" states, all sewn up and ready to serve amriki interests for many tens of decades.

It was never about the "Russian oil". It was all about controlling Modi ji, or controlling his successor...........

"Give a dog a bad name and hang him" is what trump and his pals are trying to do

OTOH, the amrikis simply failed to game in the cheeni clout on the rare earth supply chains, and also the cheeni choke holds on the amriki agricultural exports.

both were fatal mistakes, as was the gross underestimation of Modi ji's political acumen and resilience, especially when combined with his geopolitical dexterity, reach, and agility. It was at this point that things started to unravel

Modi ji has a vast international following, and he adroitly leveraged that using the artistry and finesse of Jaishankar ji.

No need to shout baba. I already know that, and except for the wilfully ignorant, I think everyone else here does as well.

My point in raising "Russian Oil", "ICC" etc. is this. ALL US regimes have been hypocritical in their dealings with independent India.

What is new with Chump Sarkar is that they wear their hypocrisy on their sleeve. They will accuse you of harbouring terrorism supporters while Asim Munir is still in the White House dining room. There is not even a fig leaf of shamelessness now, it is compensated for by empty bravado ("yes, we are America so we don't have to follow the rules we set for you, so what will you do about it?")

For India this can be both a bad and a good thing dependinh on how Dilli plays its hand.

[bala]

They wanted to create a vassal state, just like the britshits had done with India, before 1947.

The US got paid by the Britshits for WW-II expenses from the Indian Exchequer and left India a paupered poor nation as its handicap. Despite such loot and pauper, India has managed to recover and come up to 3rd nation in the world (PPP). The US effectively profitted by India paying the bill for WW-II adventure with the Eurotards. Meanwhile the Global Deep State moved to the US and dictates its next looting spree across the world by creating mayhem everywhere except its own nations, it does keep the pot boiling even in the US so no El Presidente becomes cocky. Currently the US is facing a 3 way headache - Russia, China and India (RIC or is it CRI). The 3 banding together will become a massive pain in the rear for the US.

[Vayutuvan]

They wanted to create a vassal state, just like the britshits had done with India, before 1947.

- Russia, China and India (RIC or is it CRI). The 3 banding together will become a massive pain in the rear for the US.

I would go with IRC as in "Irksome".

[A_Gupta]

@ShauryaT asks:

Let us assume the above to be true. What capabilities does India have, that is deemed threatening or at the least desirable to the US and India is willing to use these to thwart US goals? Let us leave the morality or desirability or even the viability of the above objectives aside. Imagine a world where it is the law of the fish (matsya) that prevails, where the big fish eats the smaller one. How can India resist or is resisting not just by pleading good reason but with actual counter measures to thwart such objectives?

Let's say India continues unimpeded its growth to the third largest economy, with correspondingly expanded military power, and growing technological prowess.

1. If the US goes to war with China (say over Taiwan or something in the South China Sea or such) the US wants India to unconditionally go to war too. A vassal state would; an independent country might, only if it sees it to be in its best interest.

2. If India wants the UN and UN security council reformed, the US will want India to acquiesce to what terms the US puts.

3. The US would worry about expanding Indian influence in the IMF, World Bank, Asian Development Bank and FATF, for instance. They would want Indian votes in such forums to march in lockstep with American votes.

4. The US's strategic requirement is that no one power or coalition of powers that does not include itself dominate the Eurasian land mass. As such, it would want to keep Russia, China and India at perpetual tension with each other. Not that it seems like it has anything to worry about right now, but as Trump himself has caused, the geopolitical situation can change very quickly.

5. The US has financialized its economy, shedding manufacturing & industrialization. As such, it fears anyone who might become a competitor in hosting financial markets.

6. The two single markets large enough to absorb the US's agricultural surplus are China and India. The US wants both of those to be captive markets. It flubbed with China; it is trying hard with India.

7. The US wants Indian workers to take care of the technical labor shortage, to pay taxes to the US, pay Social Security taxes and prop up American social welfare, but to go home before they get any of the benefits. They want India to be in that sort of a bind, where it has to accept this arrangement. Like the Gulf states where Indians can work but not get citizenship, except the Gulf countries so far do not need foreign workers to prop up their social welfare systems.

8. The US would like India to be wholly dependent on US weapon systems, and neither get them from Russia or Europe nor develop indigenous capabilities.

9. The US wants the world's semiconductor industry to relocate to the US, not to India, nor remain in Taiwan or China, etc.

10. Things like guaranteed return on US investments in infrastructure in India, and such would be welcome.

11. When the US has a project like pacifying Gaza, it wants to be able to make India supply the troops (I'm told India said it would contribute only if there was a United Nations mandate.). When the US wants to impose sanctions by itself on some country without a UN resolution or such - it wants India to obey. If the US wants the Bagram Airbase, then India is supposed to join in trying to persuade the Taliban government of Afghanistan.

Think how the British made decisions to their own benefit and to the detriment of India from London. Now change the British to the US and London to Washington DC. Of course, the historical circumstances are different and the parallel has to be taken metaphorically.

[KL Dubey]

First major lawsuit pertaining to $100K H1B fees filed in San Francisco:

https://apnews.com/article/immigration- ... 7ade4268e1

[A_Gupta]

How does India resist? By not compromising on its core values of independence, sovereignty and strategic autonomy; and by finding ways to climb over the resulting obstacles. When there is no compromise on core values, then there is a costs vs benefits to be considered carefully.

Also, I am a firm believer in that the only thing that can keep Indians down is the actions of other Indians (for instance, choosing to be bureaucratic or corrupt, or offering destructive instead of constructive opposition to the government, or like crabs in a basket, keep pulling each other down). In that sense, IMO, the US, etc., are irrelevant.

[A_Gupta]

"India is no longer a silent player in world politics. As the U.S. courts New Delhi, Russia relies on Indian markets, China looms across the border, and Pakistan remains a constant rival, India stands at the centre of global geopolitics.

In this episode of The Focus, Dr. John Bruni speaks with Professor Salvatore Babones (University of Sydney) about India’s bold gamble on its future. Will New Delhi define the Indo-Pacific century—or be defined by it?"

https://youtu.be/ei26IWBqqyg?si=OPlkWQNvTu8qdBYg

[uddu]

BREAKING: Hyderabad Student Shot Dead in Dallas | Pole Chandrashekhar Killed at Gas Station
BREAKING: Hyderabad Student Shot Dead in Dallas | Pole Chandrashekhar Killed at Gas Station

A tragic incident has shaken Hyderabad. Pole Chandrashekhar, a student from Hyderabad pursuing higher studies in the US, was shot dead by unidentified assailants while working at a gas station in Dallas, Texas. His family is pleading with the Indian Government, the Indian Embassy, and the Telangana Chief Minister Revanth Reddy to help repatriate his body to Hyderabad.

Former Telangana Minister T Harish Rao visited Chandrashekhar’s family and demanded immediate government intervention to bring the body back home and ensure justice.

[Cain Marko]

How does India resist? By not compromising on its core values of independence, sovereignty and strategic autonomy; and by finding ways to climb over the resulting obstacles. When there is no compromise on core values, then there is a costs vs benefits to be considered carefully.

Also, I am a firm believer in that the only thing that can keep Indians down is the actions of other Indians (for instance, choosing to be bureaucratic or corrupt, or offering destructive instead of constructive opposition to the government, or like crabs in a basket, keep pulling each other down). In that sense, IMO, the US, etc., are irrelevant.

Compromising on core values is not a a possibility nor is it required IMHO. BUT (and I know brfites won't like this):

Giving some lip service credit to the the US via a statement or two couldn't have hurt after op sindoor. Just like it didn't after kargil.
"We thank our partners, the US under prez Trump's leadership for their role in achieving the ceasefire"

[A_Gupta]

Any lip service statement violates the no-mediation-with-Pakistan stand. Even a true and seemingly innocuous "Trump never spoke to us, but we are told that Trump spoke to Pakistan and made them see good sense" is an admission of mediation.

India has always gotten the short end of the stick with mediation - 1947-48 United Nations on J&K; Indus Waters Treaty World Bank 1960; 1965 Sir Creek with Pakistan -- why would India do such a stupid thing as even hint that Trump mediated? Especially when it is a lie. It started off with JD Vance's "fundamentally it is not US's business". How did it suddenly turn into US's business? When did the US administration do anything useful? As the Op Sindoor threads indicate, it is not out of any goodwill, but likely out of what India hit in Pakistan.

Had the US designated the TRF a terrorist organization between April 22 and Op Sindoor, instead of in July, that could be acknowledged. But "placate the powerful for no reason except to keep in their good books" - that is a shameful thing to advocate for.

---
Added: actually, when Trump issued his first threat about sanctions on BRICS/any country that went for de-dollarization was when India should have kept silent. Instead India issued some statement that India is not interested in de-dollarization, and that to Trump, was a signal of weakness and fear.

This was even before Trump was inaugurated to his second term.

On November 30, 2024, President-elect Donald Trump threatened to impose 100% tariffs on any of the nine BRICS member nations if they took steps to undermine the U.S. dollar's status as the global reserve currency.

On December 7, 2024, External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar responded to Trump's initial threat at the Doha Forum.
Jaishankar stated that while BRICS nations do discuss financial transactions, there was no current proposal for a BRICS currency, and India had no interest in weakening the U.S. dollar.

[S_Madhukar]

Looking at how Xian SoKo workers were recently harassed - they gave US everything - that US demands of us - yet see the Raj style humiliation they went thru. This should open our eyes to the ugliness of that country that has not improved spiritually in the last 300 years. Wonder what founding fathers leaders like Abe would think. Will they bring back concentration camps like WW2 when they suspected own citizens of being Japanese spies ? They don’t have anyone left with real intellectual heft to speak these things on either side and certainly no people that can get their heads out of OnlyFans or Insta etc. That worries me if I was living there

[gakakkad]

^ nitpick , Abe wasn't founding father .

[S_Madhukar]

^ nitpick , Abe wasn't founding father .

Corrected

[Cain Marko]

Any lip service statement violates the no-mediation-with-Pakistan stand. Even a true and seemingly innocuous "Trump never spoke to us, but we are told that Trump spoke to Pakistan and made them see good sense" is an admission of mediation.

Im not so sure. There wasa lot of chatter happening between ABV , Clinton and Sharif circa Kargil? I think I rememberr ABV having actually spoken to Clinton on a phone call at that time. And we all know that he stepped heavily on Sharif's tail...

[KLNMurthy]

…
[
KLNMurthy ji,

That is the crux of the matter

The man is a tireless warrior for our civilizational culture and all that it stands for and he has continually faced brickbats, threats, and abuse from the academic commies and abrahamics in amrika and elsewhere in the world

Honors have been given to some really horrendous schitts by this govt.

The least that they can do, and even now it's not too late, is to recognize his work by award of the padma

This govt, and indeed the party itself, is gun shy when it comes to supporting its own.............

The countless hundreds of party workers that were sacrificed in bengal to mumtaz begum's marauding party workers and jihadi murderers, is a bitter point to note

What can I say? Anyone who buys into the myth of “Modi the Hindu nationalist”—propagated by the anti-Hindus of the world—is going to be disappointed by the reality that Modi has always been a secular leader, who doesn’t mind pushing a few “communal” buttons for electoral gains.

The most Hindus could expect is that, unlike under famiglia rule, they won’t be shut down & punished for simply being unashamed Hindus. Even that is not guaranteed but still a vast improvement over what would have been under INC rule, especially the one that is coming.

Modi sarkar was never anything more than an opportunity for Hindus to get politically organized on their own.

I have been saying this since the heady days of 2014 but it’s hard to get past people’s wish fulfillment fantasies.

[KLNMurthy]

Think tanks & lobbying massa are usually for countries and entities that aggressively *want* something. India is basically a status-quo power that wants to be left alone to mind its own business and grow in its own way. Hard to push aggressively for massa to ... do nothing.

Wanting to be left alone is not a realistic or at least not a profitable option in the world of hard nosed international relations, is it? There are only two options. Either be in axis with BRICS/global south type of powers (IOW: China camp) and do a NAM 2.0 redux or make a conscious and hard to swallow but a profitable and realistic choice recognizing India's relatively weak economic, technological, military and strategic positions as of today and strike a faustian bargain in order to build its capacities (similar to the Meiji era bargain by Imperial Japan) and if and when these capacities are built - only then strike out an independent path --- when and if India can truly claim great power status. A great power is one who can dominate its neighborhood, and chosen areas of Interests and does not rely on any other power for its core interests. One thing we should not indulge in - again - is moralistic rhetoric no one cares about to the detriment of India and Indians. Is the current view of EAM, one of "multi-alignment" is in need of a relook?

Realistic or not, any objective look at India’s conduct of foreign policy & national security policy leads to the inescapable conclusion that, in general (with some exceptions like op poli, goa, sikkim and BD in ‘71, which all can also be explained as defensive or consolidating actions) India’s national passion is based on the wish to be left alone. India will act only when outside interference passes beyond all tolerable limits. And yes, in the best case, that attitude makes India the “immovable object” in a confrontation; in the worst case, it undermines security and leads to loss of territory, be it physical or political.

It doesn’t mean that this has to be inevitably the case always, but it does mean that there has to be energy invested in making a sea change in people’s outlook and hence in policy. Without a systematic investment of energy in bringing about such a change, it is useless wishful thinking to talk about, “we should do this thing or that thing.”

[KLNMurthy]

What outcome do you want? More precisely, what constitutes winning?

It will be good get thoughtful answers to this question from rakshaks.

We need to differentiate between the NRI and RNI urge to feel the reflected glory of being associated with a “winner” like unkil (or cheen?) (as represented by one ex-rakshak whom I still remember) and an objective consideration of Indian interests on their own merits.

[A_Gupta]

On the military side:

After World War I, when the British Raj broke its promise to give India greater self-rule and dominion status, Indian nationalists have simply no interest in European wars. (Yes, the Asian aspect of the World War II was of great interest and was seen as an opportunity by Bose et. al.).

I think likewise with West Asia, whether it be Israel vs the Arabs or the Iraq War, versions 1 and 2. Being left alone means not getting involved in those wars.

However, India is definitely interested in Sri Lanka (vs the Tigers), Maldives (1988 Operation Cactus), Red Sea piracy (Operation Sankalp) and gets involved. Likewise with the strategic cooperation with the Philippines. Airbase in Tajikistan. No "leave us alone here".

An infinitely weaker India resisted getting pulled into the Cold War when the US was 50 to 40% of the world economy. Now the US is at around 26% of the world economy, no longer a manufacturing powerhouse, and India is being told it must join a bloc? I don't see the logic. To the extent that the US wants to contain China, there is a convergence with Indian interests. Until China settles its territorial dispute with India in a way acceptable to India, there is no bloc to join there.

On the economics and trade side: there is no necessity to join any bloc. If India is competitive, there will be trade, regardless of the bloc. Joining a bloc will not fix anything that ails India. I repeat, what holds back India is what Indians do, and that cannot be fixed from outside. Except perhaps in fringe things like American football or Sumo wrestling, Indians have shown world class achievements. In any field that matters. If India is not progressing commensurate with this, there are internal obstacles that need to be fixed.

[Vayutuvan]

> Until China settles its territorial dispute with India in a way acceptable to India, there is no bloc to join there.

That is wishful thinking. China will not let go of even Aksai Cheen (which is legally ours) leave alone Tibet and their access to Gwadar. They are maximalist expansionist. Our only choices are Japan/Australia/Indonesia (but the latter two do not trust each other).

I think China cannot be stopped by any single country or even two countries jointly in the far east and ASEAN. If Russia was pressed to choose sides between India and China, they would go with China.

Everything will be different in case China becomes a democracy/republic. Chances of that happening are lower than China settling territorial disputes with India that is acceptable to India. So we are on our own and possibly with some help from African continent.

[Reddy]

>
I think China cannot be stopped by any single country or even two countries jointly in the far east and ASEAN. If Russia was pressed to choose sides between India and China, they would go with China.

If a major multinational war breaks out, Russia will take India's side or stay neutral. I don't think they'll make a WW2 mistake again, like Germany in WW2, China eyes the vast Russian territory and resources.

[Vayutuvan]

If a major multinational war breaks out, Russia will take India's side or stay neutral. I don't think they'll make a WW2 mistake again, like Germany in WW2, China eyes the vast Russian territory and resources.

Reddy saab, long time no see.

[Deans]

BREAKING: Hyderabad Student Shot Dead in Dallas | Pole Chandrashekhar Killed at Gas Station
BREAKING: Hyderabad Student Shot Dead in Dallas | Pole Chandrashekhar Killed at Gas Station

A tragic incident has shaken Hyderabad. Pole Chandrashekhar, a student from Hyderabad pursuing higher studies in the US, was shot dead by unidentified assailants while working at a gas station in Dallas, Texas. His family is pleading with the Indian Government, the Indian Embassy, and the Telangana Chief Minister Revanth Reddy to help repatriate his body to Hyderabad.

Former Telangana Minister T Harish Rao visited Chandrashekhar’s family and demanded immediate government intervention to bring the body back home and ensure justice.

If an Indian student was murdered in Hyderabad it wouldn't feature in the media, let alone `shake Hyderabad' and get the CM involved.
I've never understood why we consider crimes against NRI/PIOs (who whine endlessly about conditions in India) to be worthy of far more attention
than crimes against resident Indians.

[Manish_P]

If an Indian student was murdered in Hyderabad it wouldn't feature in the media, let alone `shake Hyderabad' and get the CM involved.
I've never understood why we consider crimes against NRI/PIOs (who whine endlessly about conditions in India) to be worthy of far more attention than crimes against resident Indians.

I agree but perhaps the intention is to show a mirror to the US (and others) and their usual 'India is not safe for women/minorities/foreigners/.........'

[Cyrano]

Unless it's a racially motivated hate crime. Why should we not highlight such incidents that occur against us in what many still consider (rightly or wrongly - it doesn't matter) - as an Eldorado?

[Cyrano]

Bharat has to find alternative markets for its US exports while simultaneously increasing production and logistics efficiency internally to keep costs down for internal consumption and export margins. I believe we are already doing that, but there will be some short term pain ie for 2-5 years.

Please remember that the world as a whole, India included, have been enjoying the trickle down of 30T+ wampum dollars for a couple of decades now. There will be pain when these dollar dreams come to an end. The US ofcourse will suffer the most and is likely to behave in some unimaginably horrible ways as this happens.

[saip]

If an Indian student was murdered in Hyderabad it wouldn't feature in the media, let alone `shake Hyderabad' and get the CM involved.
I've never understood why we consider crimes against NRI/PIOs (who whine endlessly about conditions in India) to be worthy of far more attention
than crimes against resident Indians.

Agree. On an F1 Visa and working outside the campus.

[uddu]

An Indian is getting killed in the U.S. Our view of murder of Indians be it within India or outside by others, is very different from how Jews see it. For them every person is important. For us numbers matter. When Bihari workers got killed, one by one in J&K by the same Pak sponsored terrorists. There was no Operation Sindoor for them. The terrorist like Nijjar got such publicity and pressure from the west on India while our citizen getting killed is no news. There need to be awareness and there is need to ensure that the Indian American community arm themselves and protect themselves. Indian government can issue advisory on Do's and Don't in the U.S for Students going there and working. Things to avoid to stay safe.

[A_Gupta]

Part of becoming Vikasit Bharat is that each Indian matters. BRF tried in having a thread to memorialize each Indian murdered by terrorists.

[drnayar]

Bharat has to find alternative markets for its US exports while simultaneously increasing production and logistics efficiency internally to keep costs down for internal consumption and export margins. I believe we are already doing that, but there will be some short term pain ie for 2-5 years.

Please remember that the world as a whole, India included, have been enjoying the trickle down of 30T+ wampum dollars for a couple of decades now. There will be pain when these dollar dreams come to an end. The US ofcourse will suffer the most and is likely to behave in some unimaginably horrible ways as this happens.

apparently, wars seem to be the best option for US to keep the lights on !!..

[Vayutuvan]

Agree. On an F1 Visa and working outside the campus.

That is not what @Dean ji is saying.

Is it your case that illegals deserve to die, hain?!!!

[Reddy]

If a major multinational war breaks out, Russia will take India's side or stay neutral. I don't think they'll make a WW2 mistake again, like Germany in WW2, China eyes the vast Russian territory and resources.

Reddy saab, long time no see.

Just enjoying chump circus

[gakakkad]

An Indian is getting killed in the U.S. Our view of murder of Indians be it within India or outside by others, is very different from how Jews see it. For them every person is important. For us numbers matter. When Bihari workers got killed, one by one in J&K by the same Pak sponsored terrorists. There was no Operation Sindoor for them. The terrorist like Nijjar got such publicity and pressure from the west on India while our citizen getting killed is no news. There need to be awareness and there is need to ensure that the Indian American community arm themselves and protect themselves. Indian government can issue advisory on Do's and Don't in the U.S for Students going there and working. Things to avoid to stay safe.

There have been more statements issued by Jewish organizations against hinduphobia than Indian organizations in the us .

When the progrom against hindus was taking place in BD during the yunus circus , not one nri I know raised a finger . Several Jews did ..

If you call the nri community in the us sikhandi than it's an insult to sikhandi .

Post 10/7 my Indian origin chief told me to not share Israeli flag .

Op sindoor desi colleagues told me not to talk about it .

[KLNMurthy]

…

No need to shout baba. I already know that, and except for the wilfully ignorant, I think everyone else here does as well.

My point in raising "Russian Oil", "ICC" etc. is this. ALL US regimes have been hypocritical in their dealings with independent India.

What is new with Chump Sarkar is that they wear their hypocrisy on their sleeve. They will accuse you of harbouring terrorism supporters while Asim Munir is still in the White House dining room. There is not even a fig leaf of shamelessness now, it is compensated for by empty bravado ("yes, we are America so we don't have to follow the rules we set for you, so what will you do about it?")

For India this can be both a bad and a good thing dependinh on how Dilli plays its hand.

I like to semi-joke that Trump has made me realize the importance of hypocrisy in the world by taking it away.

The entire pre-trump US international system was premised on two-facedness. Do nicey-nice chai biskoot about “rule of law,” “shared democracy” blah blah blah while (relatively) quietly digging pits for the other guy behind the scenes.

Indian babucracy is hardwired to respond in the same way—grin like an ape and bring up obscure historical anecdotes that supposedly bind India and US together, while doing the actual work in the background, away from public attention.

Which is not a bad way to do the business of foreign policy. One downside of this approach if you are an aam abdul is that there is no real accountability—what the babus do is out of sight mostly. Sure, ponderous anti-Indian donkeys will pontificate at length in Frontline or The Wire about some turgid details, how babus dropped the ball on this thing or that thing, always with an agenda of undermining India. But aam abdul’s eyes glaze over when he runs into such bloviations. Or, team pappu will bray about some nonsensical “failure” like, “why didn’t 56 inch chest man nuke China already, he is scared, nananana.” Again, aam abdul mostly knows this foolishness for what it is.

So, that’s also an upside for the babus, because, in general, they won’t face real accountability from janata about policymaking and execution, since their most visible work product is chai biskoot cliche exchanges.

Trump has no time for, or clue about the nicey-nice mask. He is openly crass and selfish in a way that makes mafia thugs look like subtle inscrutable samurai diplomats speaking with guarded politeness and deniability.

So, the change brought about by Trump is very effective at focusing the attention of aam abbuls on the stuff that really happens behind the scenes, what the stakes really are, etc.

That’s good in the short term as a kick in the pants to both janata & babus. Babus, as an institution, will have a tough time adjusting to the new expectations. Of course, they will, at least initially, make clueless and inept mistakes, because their institutional skillset is geared for the old school operation. We can only hope that they will reengineer themselves fast, because public is now watching closely.

What we lose in this transformation is the tool of slowing things down as needed—sometimes ambiguous chai-biskoot sessions are the best action while things cool down or ground conditions change. Late PV “taking no action is also an action” Narasimha Rao garu was a master wielder of this tool.

[KLNMurthy]

@ShauryaT asks:

Let us assume the above to be true. What capabilities does India have, that is deemed threatening or at the least desirable to the US and India is willing to use these to thwart US goals? Let us leave the morality or desirability or even the viability of the above objectives aside. Imagine a world where it is the law of the fish (matsya) that prevails, where the big fish eats the smaller one. How can India resist or is resisting not just by pleading good reason but with actual counter measures to thwart such objectives?

Let's say India continues unimpeded its growth to the third largest economy, with correspondingly expanded military power, and growing technological prowess.

1. If the US goes to war with China (say over Taiwan or something in the South China Sea or such) the US wants India to unconditionally go to war too. A vassal state would; an independent country might, only if it sees it to be in its best interest.

2. If India wants the UN and UN security council reformed, the US will want India to acquiesce to what terms the US puts.

3. The US would worry about expanding Indian influence in the IMF, World Bank, Asian Development Bank and FATF, for instance. They would want Indian votes in such forums to march in lockstep with American votes.

4. The US's strategic requirement is that no one power or coalition of powers that does not include itself dominate the Eurasian land mass. As such, it would want to keep Russia, China and India at perpetual tension with each other. Not that it seems like it has anything to worry about right now, but as Trump himself has caused, the geopolitical situation can change very quickly.

5. The US has financialized its economy, shedding manufacturing & industrialization. As such, it fears anyone who might become a competitor in hosting financial markets.

6. The two single markets large enough to absorb the US's agricultural surplus are China and India. The US wants both of those to be captive markets. It flubbed with China; it is trying hard with India.

7. The US wants Indian workers to take care of the technical labor shortage, to pay taxes to the US, pay Social Security taxes and prop up American social welfare, but to go home before they get any of the benefits. They want India to be in that sort of a bind, where it has to accept this arrangement. Like the Gulf states where Indians can work but not get citizenship, except the Gulf countries so far do not need foreign workers to prop up their social welfare systems.

8. The US would like India to be wholly dependent on US weapon systems, and neither get them from Russia or Europe nor develop indigenous capabilities.

9. The US wants the world's semiconductor industry to relocate to the US, not to India, nor remain in Taiwan or China, etc.

10. Things like guaranteed return on US investments in infrastructure in India, and such would be welcome.

11. When the US has a project like pacifying Gaza, it wants to be able to make India supply the troops (I'm told India said it would contribute only if there was a United Nations mandate.). When the US wants to impose sanctions by itself on some country without a UN resolution or such - it wants India to obey. If the US wants the Bagram Airbase, then India is supposed to join in trying to persuade the Taliban government of Afghanistan.

Think how the British made decisions to their own benefit and to the detriment of India from London. Now change the British to the US and London to Washington DC. Of course, the historical circumstances are different and the parallel has to be taken metaphorically.

Broadly agree with this take.

There is corroborative evidence, in the form of a rising crescendo of articles in the prestige establishment media like Foreign Policy & Foreign Affairs (but also in Atlantic etc) to the effect that India is “not a reliable ally” because it has shown that it won’t do the things like those listed above. Authors included “our own”
Ashley Tellis.

At first blush, these articles were puzzling: what serious American expert on India (Tellis counts as one, surely, and the other authors are also similar heavyweights) would think it’s news that Indian policy since Nehru’s time and ongoing, was to not do those things on the list? What is the point of such articles?

If you apply a little Kremlinology to it, we can read that slew of articles as policy signaling; we now know that it was a prelude to the sanctions-by-another-name.

Back in 2013-14, Modi was pegged as the un-Nehru by US policymakers (also by Indians, ongoing), in the sense that US will get full market access as well access to the effective Indian military and tech worker base etc. Sort of like maybe a bigger philippines, to be kept in a subaltern business and military relationship, with frequent scoldings over human rights serving as a goad to keep it from getting too many ideas about independence.

They were worried that the visa insult would make Modi cold towards the US. But then Modi put that aside and launched a charm offensive. I believe US tanky establishment had a version of the “big bush china dream moment”: without too much trouble, Modi-fied India could be coaxed and slotted into “philippinization” (very imperfect analogy but I don’t have a closer one).

It was probably proving harder than they had hoped, but till 2022 the India-will-come-around faction probably had reason to keep hope alive. The coaxing would be relatively gentle because they don’t want to jeopardize the goal of an India that acquiesces to philippinization.

Then the Russia oil happened, and that faction lost ground & face. The FP and FA articles I mentioned would be a reflection of the new consensus after 3 years of Indian “recalcitrance.” No more carrots, just apply the stick from now on. India has to bend to philippinization or (as they believe) just break under sanctions and sink back to Hindu rate of growth.

In short, just giving Trump “something” in mid-2025, like nodding along to his BS about singlehandedly stopping an Indian-pak nuclear war, would not have done anything. By early 2025 (IMO) the die was already cast: India has proved itself “recalcitrant” and so, no more nice guy USA.

India’s only options at this point are (a) un-Nehrufy and philippinize itself for real, or (b) do what it can for itself, by itself.

[KLNMurthy]

On the military side:

After World War I, when the British Raj broke its promise to give India greater self-rule and dominion status, Indian nationalists have simply no interest in European wars. (Yes, the Asian aspect of the World War II was of great interest and was seen as an opportunity by Bose et. al.).

I think likewise with West Asia, whether it be Israel vs the Arabs or the Iraq War, versions 1 and 2. Being left alone means not getting involved in those wars.

However, India is definitely interested in Sri Lanka (vs the Tigers), Maldives (1988 Operation Cactus), Red Sea piracy (Operation Sankalp) and gets involved. Likewise with the strategic cooperation with the Philippines. Airbase in Tajikistan. No "leave us alone here".

An infinitely weaker India resisted getting pulled into the Cold War when the US was 50 to 40% of the world economy. Now the US is at around 26% of the world economy, no longer a manufacturing powerhouse, and India is being told it must join a bloc? I don't see the logic. To the extent that the US wants to contain China, there is a convergence with Indian interests. Until China settles its territorial dispute with India in a way acceptable to India, there is no bloc to join there.

On the economics and trade side: there is no necessity to join any bloc. If India is competitive, there will be trade, regardless of the bloc. Joining a bloc will not fix anything that ails India. I repeat, what holds back India is what Indians do, and that cannot be fixed from outside. Except perhaps in fringe things like American football or Sumo wrestling, Indians have shown world class achievements. In any field that matters. If India is not progressing commensurate with this, there are internal obstacles that need to be fixed.

Is the Tajikistan airbase still a thing? Even if it is, what good is one solitary airbase (I assume poorly supplied) in the steppe (?) unless it realizes a strategic vision of some kind?

Seeking some sort of hegemony in “Greater India” I consider to be a largely defensive action, simply fortifying our vicinity. Not inconsistent with “just leave us alone”“ which doesn’t have to be a naïve Nehruvian policy of ignoring the periphery (doing Hindi-chini bhai bhai over Tibet) till we suddenly realize that unsecured periphery leaves us wide open (Nehru grandly issuing orders to “throw the Chinese out” in 1961-62).

[KLNMurthy]

An Indian is getting killed in the U.S. Our view of murder of Indians be it within India or outside by others, is very different from how Jews see it. For them every person is important. For us numbers matter. When Bihari workers got killed, one by one in J&K by the same Pak sponsored terrorists. There was no Operation Sindoor for them. The terrorist like Nijjar got such publicity and pressure from the west on India while our citizen getting killed is no news. There need to be awareness and there is need to ensure that the Indian American community arm themselves and protect themselves. Indian government can issue advisory on Do's and Don't in the U.S for Students going there and working. Things to avoid to stay safe.

There have been more statements issued by Jewish organizations against hinduphobia than Indian organizations in the us .

When the progrom against hindus was taking place in BD during the yunus circus , not one nri I know raised a finger . Several Jews did ..

If you call the nri community in the us sikhandi than it's an insult to sikhandi .

Post 10/7 my Indian origin chief told me to not share Israeli flag .

Op sindoor desi colleagues told me not to talk about it .

Safe to say that, after all the big words are said and done, the bitter truth is that NRIs in US are living the inner lives of hunted rabbits?

[Cyrano]

Safe to say that, after all the big words are said and done, the bitter truth is that NRIs in US are living the inner lives of hunted rabbits?

What I see on desi yt channels and SM makes me think there is a pogrom going on on NRIs in massaland. While every such act of violence must be highlighted and condemned loudly and my deepest condolences to the families of the victims goes without saying, the overall picture I get from actually speaking to family and friends there, is that life is mostly "naarmal" .

In Telugu they say "tiger there... said the first guy, tail here... squealed the second" .

[A_Gupta]

Seeking some sort of hegemony in “Greater India” I consider to be a largely defensive action, simply fortifying our vicinity. Not inconsistent with “just leave us alone”“ which doesn’t have to be a naïve Nehruvian policy of ignoring the periphery (doing Hindi-chini bhai bhai over Tibet) till we suddenly realize that unsecured periphery leaves us wide open (Nehru grandly issuing orders to “throw the Chinese out” in 1961-62).

Is it "The Middle East" or "West Asia"?

See, if it the Middle East, then Europe is the center of the world, and India's refusal to be involved in Middle East conflicts can be seen as a "leave me alone".

If it is "West Asia", then India is the center of the world, and it is because India has nothing to gain by getting involved in those conflicts that India keeps out of it. That is not "leave me alone", that is strategic autonomy.

Let's say in a few years, IMEC is operational, and IMEC does come under some threat. India will be involved appropriately.

Another example - since Pakistan and China are teaming up with Turkey and Azerbaijan, India does see it fit to have a strategic partnership with Armenia. Seemingly also with Cyprus (I'm not sure how far along that is.). Armenia is also a customer for Indian weapons, and a key country along the International North South Transport Corridor, which India wants.

Another example - India-Guyana. Yes, that many Guyanese have Indian ancestry is a factor; but so is India's energy security.

India is not sitting brooding in a corner, sullenly shrugging off taps on the shoulder, "go away, leave me alone". India is engaging in an India-centric way where it is to India's advantage. To frame it in any other way is to be having a perspective from some foreign capital, not from Delhi.