India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

[S_Madhukar]

Agreed that India is tying up either on economic or cultural ties with as many countries as possible. There is no record of any country helping us always - not Russia not Israel. Gulf has been pseudo-Pak in the past, SEA pseudo-Cheen. We are not driving anyone away either.
However we need to step on the gas - we are in an evil world period. On YT I can see more and more targeting sp desi migrants being targeted and any trade deal misconstrued as opening up to cultural invasion by desis. The 2 evil ideologies are feeling cornered and they are coming at us.
In US easy to fill smug with millionaire lifestyles, big secure homes and isolated suburbs. But in other countries less possible.

[uddu]

https://x.com/ssaratht/status/1975677021029089349
@ssaratht
This is from 03rd Oct. Another day another Indian Murdered in US

Stanley West shot dead businessman Rakesh Patel (50) in point-blank in Pittsburgh.

No Indian American will make a sound. Indian Govt won’t take it up.

[g.sarkar]

Udduji,
As an Indian American, I do not know what kind of sound I should make. Most Indians are killed while working in convenience stores that are open 24/7 and in bad areas. It is dangerous to work nights out there, but newer immigrants get hired easily in the run down areas. Indians are now reputed to be rich and often with gold in their possession, that attracts the badmash. I was told by a thief once that she targeted Asians because they purchased gold and hid that in their houses. Most such killings are not race based, but driven by drug addicts.
Gautam

[uddu]

Udduji,
As an Indian American, I do not know what kind of sound I should make. Most Indians are killed while working in convenience stores that are open 24/7 and in bad areas. It is dangerous to work nights out there, but newer immigrants get hired easily in the run down areas. Indians are now reputed to be rich and often with gold in their possession, that attracts the badmash. I was told by a thief once that she targeted Asians because they purchased gold and hid that in their houses. Most such killings are not race based, but driven by drug addicts.
Gautam

Does it make a difference whether its race based or for fun to shoot Indians on a daily basis? Look how cool the murderer walked upto him and shot him dead. Until and unless the motives are documented, you will never come to the conclusion of the reason for such murders. There is a good possibility that there are elements who are inciting to target Indians, spreading fake narratives. Is anyone in the US looking into these details, collecting data from Police records and otherwise. I doubt. Situations have changed. Better get the community together, create support groups, get armed training, utilize Second amendment rights to the fullest, create pressure groups locally and across. I will stop posting the crimes, if you guys are so defensive and can't accept the reality. Things are going to get even bad in the times to come, so my request to you guys is to be fully prepared and don't die the Gandhian way.
How Rooftop Koreans Defended Los Angeles...

[Deans]

Unless it's a racially motivated hate crime. Why should we not highlight such incidents that occur against us in what many still consider (rightly or wrongly - it doesn't matter) - as an Eldorado?

I take your point. I was looking at it from a different angle. In fact MEA needs to say that some US cities are not safe for travellers.

[Manish_P]

...Things are going to get even bad in the times to come, so my request to you guys is to be fully prepared and don't die the Gandhian way.
...

The brit shits didn't want more revolts after the bloody one in 1857.

Hence they cunningly propped up M K Gandhi and actively helped to popularise his 'Ahimsa is core of Hinduism' bs

[putnanja]

Unless it's a racially motivated hate crime. Why should we not highlight such incidents that occur against us in what many still consider (rightly or wrongly - it doesn't matter) - as an Eldorado?

I take your point. I was looking at it from a different angle. In fact MEA needs to say that some US cities are not safe for travellers.

In India, no one listens to government advisories. Multiple times in the past, people have travelled to Yemen, Syria etc even after advisories. They also didn't return when advised, leading to govt spending tax payers money to get them back. When they didn't stop visting those places, will people avoid US because of govt advisories? People want to go to US/UK/Canada/Australia/NZ by hook or crook. They are willing to take any risk

[saip]

18,000 a year (50 a day) are killed by guns in the USA. 1.5% are Indians/Indian Origin people. Unless we see more than 250 - 300 Indians/Indian Origin persons killed in a year - and I have not seen that kind of numbers - we should say, just another day in the USA and move on.

[chetak]

...Things are going to get even bad in the times to come, so my request to you guys is to be fully prepared and don't die the Gandhian way.
...

The brit shits didn't want more revolts after the bloody one in 1857.
Hence they cunningly propped up M K Gandhi and actively helped to popularise his 'Ahimsa is core of Hinduism' bs

Manish ji


this entire carefully generated narrative, set by the britshits from the 1930s, is fast falling apart, with the SM playing a big part in the unravelling of the anecdotal fiction that was propped up by the lefties, the congis, wokes, and most specifically by the abrahamics, who slyly and strategically sheltered under this sickular umbrella, while aggressively brandishing the Indian constitution in our faces, to push their nefarious agendas forward.

The dismantling is taking place almost on every teeeveee show and discussion

one so called stakeholder even carries a copy of the constitution in his pocket, but many are convinced that this soreass puppet cannot even read a basic kindergarten story book

There are numerous jaichands, all funded by the BIF, who aid and abet their cause, including the babooze, the academics, "public intellectuals", and the hizzonners.

BTW, the britshits are brave only in settings like jallianwala bagh................

But the pushback has started and the traitors are seriously starting to feel the heat and that has unleashed foreign operators working in the local subversion ecosystems to show their hand

[uddu]

https://x.com/IAACouncil/status/1975749156598894825

@IAACouncil
The Indian American Advocacy Council (IAAC) strongly condemns the reckless and morally bankrupt statements made by Zohran Mamdani that distort the reality of October 7.

Let us be absolutely clear:

October 7 was not a “war.” It was a massacre.

On that day, Hamas terrorists murdered over 1,100 innocent Israelis, burned families alive in their homes, raped women, and kidnapped 250 civilians including children and the elderly. Calling Israel’s effort to rescue its citizens a “genocidal war” is not just factually false , it is morally obscene.

There is no equivalence : moral, legal, or human between a democratic nation defending its people and a terrorist organization that glorifies death.

Israel’s right to exist and defend itself is absolute and non-negotiable.
Any leader who cannot say that plainly has forfeited moral credibility.

IAAC calls on all elected officials to speak with truth and conviction, to condemn Hamas unequivocally, and to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Jewish community amid the dangerous surge of antisemitism sweeping across cities and campuses.

October 7 was not politics , it was barbarism.
Those who blur that distinction dishonor every victim and embolden terror.

IAAC stands firmly with Israel, with the Jewish people, and with the universal principle that no democracy should ever be asked to tolerate the slaughter of its citizens.

The world must remember who started this and why.

[uddu]

https://x.com/kushal_mehra/status/1975774014133145848

@kushal_mehra
A former American President once met a bunch of Americans of Indian origin from the hotel business. The meeting lasted for an hour. The President was given a nice donation for the meeting. At the end he asked what he can do for them. Everyone took a selfie and posted it on Facebook.

https://x.com/ramprasad_c/status/1975754962987618503
@ramprasad_c
Hindus for Zohran. Deer for Leopard.
US Politicians quip that only thing Indian Americans ask in exchange for their support is a selfie. They didn't even ask him to remove his shoes inside the Temple.

[uddu]

https://x.com/Sputnik_India/status/1975850245843284455

@Sputnik_India
BOMBSHELL: US instigated Gen-Z protests in Nepal to TARGET India & China

Newly surfaced docs expose the role of International Republican Institute (IRI) (affiliated with NED) in funding Nepal's youth to put "pressure" on local govt.

Details in thread

[KLNMurthy]

…


India is not sitting brooding in a corner, sullenly shrugging off taps on the shoulder, "go away, leave me alone". India is engaging in an India-centric way where it is to India's advantage. To frame it in any other way is to be having a perspective from some foreign capital, not from Delhi.

Now, this “sulking in a corner” caricature takes me back to boyhood “uncles” pontificating against non-alignment, proclaiming that India has to join the American camp posthaste.

In hindsight, Nehruvian non-alignment was a mostly-thoughtful strategic vision of a poor country with a proud civilizational history and big dreams. Those dreams didn’t include anything resembling a reprise of the world conquest by christendom and Islam, albeit with an Indian flavor. That’s what adds up to an aversion for expansionism, or the “just leave me alone” philosophy of national policy.

Seems to me that the 3 things—poverty/wealth, connectedness with civilization, and strategic vision—are interrelated.

Over the decades, national poverty has receded (though slowly) and civilizational awareness has grown, again slowly. I would expect these changes to open up new strategic opportunities and requirements. For example, as you say, if IMEC becomes a reality, we would have to defend it, and “just leave me alone” will no longer do. Likewise, it can be argued that we can never really overcome poverty without expanding—one way or another—into the larger world, beyond the minimum needed to protect & defend what we already have at the moment.

However, old institutional habits die hard, and sea changes in strategic vision are best done with experience, which of course we don’t have when it comes to expansionism. The old “uncle” type of hasty recommendations (echoed today by brf posts that say, “just give Trump what he wants”) are the result of a vacuum of strategic experience being filled by “just do something” instead of a measured response.

That’s kind of a catch-22: without experience in expansionism, we can’t do it right, and without doing it (right or wrong) we won’t gain experience.

The tools for eventual success would be the ability to deploy wealth to absorb the impact of wrong decisions and using the imagination to draw on long civilizational experience.

[KLNMurthy]

Udduji,
As an Indian American, I do not know what kind of sound I should make. Most Indians are killed while working in convenience stores that are open 24/7 and in bad areas. It is dangerous to work nights out there, but newer immigrants get hired easily in the run down areas. Indians are now reputed to be rich and often with gold in their possession, that attracts the badmash. I was told by a thief once that she targeted Asians because they purchased gold and hid that in their houses. Most such killings are not race based, but driven by drug addicts.
Gautam

Only thing is, with a comparable number of murders, Muslims would be shouting Islamophobia and Jews would “be concerned” about increasing anti-semitism.

If what you are saying about gold etc is right, that would amount to a harmful stereotype against Indians. How much effort have Indian-Americans put into crafting a message to raise the profile of targeted crimes against Indians?

[KLNMurthy]

18,000 a year (50 a day) are killed by guns in the USA. 1.5% are Indians/Indian Origin people. Unless we see more than 250 - 300 Indians/Indian Origin persons killed in a year - and I have not seen that kind of numbers - we should say, just another day in the USA and move on.

With respect, that’s a self-goal in the current climate.

I can’t imagine Muslims or Jews or other groups engaging in such bureaucratic nitpicking to shut down concerns about the safety of their own people.

We really *are* different.

[gakakkad]

^ fully agree KLM Saheb . I've attended meetings of various Hindu and Indian advocacy organizations and I echo the frustration felt by Rajiv Malhotra . I am still quite young and haven't achieved as much as the big tfta CEOs like pichai etc . Someway to go before I'll be able to fund something on my own . But all I have seen from various desi organizations is param chutiyapa .

When the beheading took place in Houston one of the guys who is active in one organization (won't specify the detail ) actually victim shamed him and asked why he was hiring an illegal . It was his fault he got beheaded . I sometimes feel we are a lost cause.

[Cyrano]

KLNM,
Bharat since the NaMo era has definitely not been in leave me alone mode in international affairs. On the contrary, we have adopted and put into practice the concentric circles model of Kautilya in dealing with our neighborhood, their neighbours and so on.

Despite so many internal stables to clean up and shifting geopolitical sands, india has actively, energetically and sincerely acted to define and defend it's interests.

Not so long ago, pre NaMo india neither had the imagination nor the appetite to get into initiatives like the IMEC. I can't see where this tortoise model being mentioned is coming from!

[KLNMurthy]

KLNM,
Bharat since the NaMo era has definitely not been in leave me alone mode in international affairs. On the contrary, we have adopted and put into practice the concentric circles model of Kautilya in dealing with our neighborhood, their neighbours and so on.

Despite so many internal stables to clean up and shifting geopolitical sands, india has actively, energetically and sincerely acted to define and defend it's interests.

Not so long ago, pre NaMo india neither had the imagination nor the appetite to get into initiatives like the IMEC. I can't see where this tortoise model being mentioned is coming from!

I would like to see a much more aggressive and calculated Indian role in the larger, non-EuroAmerican world.

Military collaborations with Nigeria etc to put down islamists, educational & medical support for backward communities in the US, deep involvement in Indian-origin Caribbean and pacific countries etc. To name only a few opportunities off the top of my head.

China has been occupying all or most those spaces, as US & Europe have been retrenching after deeply ineffective and harmful involvement of centuries.

Those spaces should be ours without question or doubt. We are the only benign civilization in the world that also brings to the table capabilities to shape and manage a good future for all.

True, some baby steps are being taken in those directions but we are too much of a wallflower to move with the confidence and rapidity that is needed.

[A_Gupta]

The brit shits didn't want more revolts after the bloody one in 1857.

Hence they cunningly propped up M K Gandhi and actively helped to popularise his 'Ahimsa is core of Hinduism' bs

Off-topic but Gandhi was born 12 years after 1857, and returned to India in 1915 after achieving something in South Africa, and a few more years to become a national leader.

The Brit shits were exceedingly cunning to find a way to suppress bloody revolts for almost 60 years after 1857 until the advent of Gandhi.

With such cunning it is hard to deny their right to rule over less cunning peoples.(/sarc)

PM Modi called out one of Gandhi’s most significant achievements like this - before Gandhi, all the attempts at Swaraj were from secret societies, small parties, specific groups, etc., etc. Gandhi turned it into a mass movement, and made it so that the most humble of laborers could feel they could make a contribution.

[Vayutuvan]

Now, this “sulking in a corner” caricature takes me back to boyhood “uncles” pontificating against non-alignment, proclaiming that India has to join the American camp posthaste.
...

I don't know but my boyhood uncles used to pontificate for NAM. One uncle in fact went to jail for 6 mahine interned along with Maulana Abul Kalam Azad. My dad held Nehru in high regard. He used to attend Gandhi's weekly satsang on Saturdays at his Wardha ashram when he was 10 years of age. Both leaders along with others of that era and their junior had left an indelible impression on him. All in all, they did what they felt right for those conditions.

NAM fell into disfavor after emergency by IG and the aftermath. The US was largely responsible for JP and JP 1977 which fell apart in a short three years. All said and done, Charan Singh and Chandrashekhar had some integrity while VP Singh, Tau had none.

[Vayutuvan]

If what you are saying about gold etc is right, that would amount to a harmful stereotype against Indians. How much effort have Indian-Americans put into crafting a message to raise the profile of targeted crimes against Indians?

These are not harmful stereotypes. There was a gang of thieves working in two teams. A part of the team would follow an Indian family when they went out of the house and be in constant contact with the other team who would then enter their home and essentially take gold (bullion and jewelry) knowing ahead of time how far they are from home. Several such incidents have happened. It is not all that different from what happens in India. There were cases where "families" make friendship on overnight trains in sleeper bogies with families who are going on a vacation, exchange their information saying that they are close to where they live and they can visit each other socially after they come back from their respective vacations. Then they will send a telegram or phone call to their home team who would go and rob the homes of the families.

[Vayutuvan]

Military collaborations with Nigeria etc to put down islamists,

Nigeria is 50-50 xtist-mohammaden split. I don't think they would let a so called "Hindutva" Modi's admin to interfere. The xtists in the south west are beholden to the Amreeki and the French. Even Ombaba couldn't do much to bring back the girls abducted by Boko-Haram. Michelle O. was reduced to posting photos of her carrying placards which proclaimed in bold letters "Bring our school girls back". This was just after they had to cancel their visit to Taj Mahal and go condole the Saudis after the death of their monarch. Michelle O. was pouting since she had to stand back and her hand was not shaken by the Saudis.

[Manish_P]

...
PM Modi called out one of Gandhi’s most significant achievements like this - before Gandhi, all the attempts at Swaraj were from secret societies, small parties, specific groups, etc., etc. Gandhi turned it into a mass movement, and made it so that the most humble of laborers could feel they could make a contribution.

<OT>It was going to turn into a national movement anyway. Just like pre 1857 resistance to the British was done by different kingdoms.

All resistances/ revolts usually start in the same way - individual small groups coalescing into a single mass once critical momentum is reached.

The brits were smart in propping up the person they thought would be most suitable to them.

Many other countries got independence from Britain around the same time. Not all of them had a Mahatma to make the British quit. </OT>

[A_Gupta]

I would like to see a much more aggressive and calculated Indian role in the larger, non-EuroAmerican world.

Military collaborations with Nigeria etc to put down islamists, educational & medical support for backward communities in the US, deep involvement in Indian-origin Caribbean and pacific countries etc. To name only a few opportunities off the top of my head.

No argument, but how to justify scaling up when several percent of Indians are still in multi-dimensional poverty?

Here is a summary of what India does do:
https://orfamerica.org/newresearch/indi ... priorities

Since 2000, India’s Ministry of External Affairs has overseen financial assistance to over 65 countries worth over $48 billion. This amount comprised $14.74 billion in grants, $32.6 billion in lines of credit, and $656 million in capacity building and training programs. These figures do not reflect other kinds of Indian support such as emergency financial assistance, multilateral aid and lending, and certain training programs conducted by other Indian government agencies. Over this period, India’s government has also conducted more than 20 major humanitarian assistance and disaster relief (HADR) missions and extended offers of training to over 128,000 individuals from other countries.

Although primarily focused on India’s immediate neighborhood, significant amounts are now extended to Africa and other developing countries. While traditionally focused on economic development and technical assistance, India’s foreign assistance has also assumed a more strategic character. Areas such as defense and security, governance and accountability, connectivity and energy infrastructure, and technology and cybersecurity are increasingly being supported by Indian development financing and capacity building in select countries.

It is also important to note that India is not a traditional aid donor belonging to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). This entails providing obligatory economic aid comprising of grants, loans, and technical assistance to developing countries. India’s grants, loans, and technical assistance are provided in a voluntary manner, wherein the recipient country selects, requests, and determines the nature of assistance sought from India. India also provides assistance on a government-to-government basis. These differences set apart India’s foreign assistance from that of most traditional OECD aid donors.

Between 2000 to 2022, the Indian government has extended 312 LoCs totaling $32.6 billion to more than 65 countries and completing more than 320 projects. More than 50 percent of LoCs are concentrated in South Asia and the Indo-Pacific regions, consistent with India’s Neighborhood First and Act East policies. Africa is a close second with 34 percent while Latin America and the Middle East are the least with 3 percent and 1 percent, respectively. LoCs are provided for agriculture, industry, infrastructure, social welfare, energy, and defense and security. 50 percent of LoCs are concentrated on industry, infrastructure, and energy. This reflects India’s stated priorities in the IDEAS framework to use LoCs to support strategic infrastructure projects and promote trade and economic ties with borrowing countries. One example is in Mongolia where an Indian credit of approximately $1 billion is going towards Mongolia’s first petroleum oil refinery.

And so on. I leave you to read the ORF paper and point out where India has been not-so-efficient or not-generous-enough.

[A_Gupta]

<OT>It was going to turn into a national movement anyway. Just like pre 1857 resistance to the British was done by different kingdoms.

All resistances/ revolts usually start in the same way - individual small groups coalescing into a single mass once critical momentum is reached.

The brits were smart in propping up the person they thought would be most suitable to them.

Many other countries got independence from Britain around the same time. Not all of them had a Mahatma to make the British quit. </OT>

I think if you read history, you will find that Jinnah's first break with Gandhi was when Gandhi made for a mass movement. The fact is all through from the Muhammad bin Qasim invasion in 712 to the early 1900s, no resistance movements were national mass movements.


PM Modi's speech is never off-topic, so I'll quote it here. Any further arguments, please take it up with PM Modi
But the point should be clear. From 712 to the early 1900s, there was never a mass movement to be independent of the outside invaders.

Excerpt from
https://www.pib.gov.in/newsite/PrintRel ... lid=136737
28-September-2014
Text of Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi’s address to the Indian community at Madison Square Garden, New York

We are well aware of the history of our freedom movement. The Britishers ruled over us and prior to them various others ruled us. Almost for 1000 to 1200 years we were slaves. But if you were to see history, in each age there was some great man who sacrificed himself for the country. You can name all the gurus in the Sikh tradition. One after the other they sacrificed themselves. Bhagat Singh was a part of the same tradition. Till date the Sikhs guarding our borders are ready to lay down their lives for the country.

In each era, great men have sacrificed themselves for the nation. They would sacrifice themselves, be hanged or be shot, and then some new leader would come up to take their place. Then he would sacrifice his life and a third leader would be born. There was no dearth of people sacrificing their lives, but he would come alone and fight for the nation with all his might and get martyred for his country. He would fight with his small group of 5 or 50 friends and companions. But what did Mahatma Gandhi do?

Mahatma Gandhi made independence a public movement. If someone wore khadi, it was for independence. If someone taught children, he was working for independence and if someone fed the hungry, it was for independence. If someone swept and cleaned, that too was his contribution for independence. He gave a direction to each individual according to his capacity and potential, so each one felt that he too was fighting for independence. This was Mahatma Gandhi’s biggest contribution.

Each citizen during the freedom struggle through the medium of different work that whatever he was doing was guided by the sentiment that I am doing it for my nation, and this gave an impetus to the freedom movement. Brothers and sisters, the way the freedom struggle became a public movement, similarly development too should become a people’s movement. 125 crore Indians should feel that they are working for the nation. I may be a teacher, but if I teach the children well, I am serving the nation and doing a better job than even the prime minister. A cleaner would do his job well, he will clean well. Why? because it enhances the prestige of my nation. This will be his service to the nation. A doctor will serve the patients from a poor family and that too with complete dedication. The life of the poor is equally valuable and the doctor also works for the nation.

I have attempted to make development a people’s movement. All 125 crore Indians should be participants in the development of the nation. I want to instill the sentiments in people like “whatever I do, I do it for my country, let me do nothing that shames my country”. I have complete faith that such days are back again. All around there is a vibrant mood and each Indian in every corner feels that they have to take the nation forward. The will power of the 125 crore Indians is my strength, my power. And it is this will power on which I rest my faith and believe it to be the reason for India to lead the way in the 21st century.

[Cyrano]

We all want Bharat to play a more active and visible role internationally.

But comparisons with US, China or even the EU is as much a question of means as it is of intent and execution.

China and EU benefited from the unlimited US dollah printing presses for decades, through trade and investment for the first and trade + minimal defence spending (thanks to nato) for the second.

India had no such favours from anyone, and we were willing to pay that price for strategic autonomy. That's the past, but bootstrapping a nation of 1.4B people into an era of prosperity and also act internationally is a question of means and priorities, and timing.

We will get there... A little patience is all I can say.

[SRajesh]

What does US mediated Isreal-Hamas Ceasefire (or rather Piece-fire) hold for us??
Trump has openly called our Egypt/Qatar/Turkiye for their mediation.
There seems to be recalibration in the US-Islamic world relationship!
And in return there has been an immense amount of trade deals between the Gulf countries and US.
US has openly called out any attack on Qatar will not be tolerated!
My concern is where do US-India relations now stand.
US(more the CENTCOM) are openly courting Jihadi/TSP.
Newly announced KSA-TSP pact.
More anti India measures and lighting small fires in and around India!
Have we now become the part of evil Axis : RIC
And the BIG thing in all this is will Hamas hold to their agreement or start the usual Echo N Dee ala TSP type and start playing psych-op games.
But whatever happens it will be an intersting time until arrival of Spring 26

[SRajesh]

Also a question :
Can India or more specifically NaMo make Russia-Pukraine deal and announce it when Putinwa comes calling in October/November
Now that woulld upset Trump's quest for the Nobel Piece medallion!!
Oh the Irony of Trump's Medal if India does secure that deal!!!
RIC or specifically India and China should now broker this deal and cock a snook at DS!!

[Manish_P]

...

I think if you read history, you will find that Jinnah's first break with Gandhi was when Gandhi made for a mass movement. The fact is all through from the Muhammad bin Qasim invasion in 712 to the early 1900s, no resistance movements were national mass movements.

...

Have read a fair bit of history... though i do not claim to be any expert on it

Co-incidentally this is the India-US thread. It would be interesting to see the history of how the US, also a colony of Imperial England, gained it's independence. Much before we did. Without a Mahatma who preached non-violence

[Yayavar]

...

I think if you read history, you will find that Jinnah's first break with Gandhi was when Gandhi made for a mass movement. The fact is all through from the Muhammad bin Qasim invasion in 712 to the early 1900s, no resistance movements were national mass movements.

...

Have read a fair bit of history... though i do not claim to be any expert on it

Co-incidentally this is the India-US thread. It would be interesting to see the history of how the US, also a colony of Imperial England, gained it's independence. Much before we did. Without a Mahatma who preached non-violence

Your timeline and assessment of the situation is different.USA was independent by 1783.
Bharatiyaa were being conquered. It was a long conquest with many battles but by the time gandhi was born it was mostly done. Then we had other streams of resistance but they were somewhat disjoint. As A_gupta says there were no pan India movements before. Read the history of hsra, or lala hardayal, bagha jarin or rash behari Bose. Arms were hard to come by. Or see the Malayalam movie pazhassi raja on disarmament. And Desi policemen and informers for their eozi-roti were always around to lead the likes of Bissmil or Azad to their deaths.

Indians did fight, and often, and later after having saved the British from the Germans, mutineed. It was indians who beat back INA and the Japanese. At the same time, mass consciousness and involvement of the non-elite was developed primarily through the expansion of Congress by gandhi.

[Manish_P]

...
Indians did fight, and often, and later after having saved the British from the Germans, mutineed. It was indians who beat back INA and the Japanese. At the same time, mass consciousness and involvement of the non-elite was developed primarily through the expansion of Congress by gandhi.

Not debating that, sir. What i was trying to convey (rather unsuccessfully) was that the British were very scared (and rightly so) of armed struggle and so nipped leaders of those movements in the bud very, very early on and very harshly.

At the same time they smartly allowed & helped navigate the path of the likes of Gandhi, Nehru etc, whom they felt they could control, to the forefront of the india freedom movement to buy themselves time and space (when they were fighting other colonial powers, russia etc). WW2 knocked the wind out of their sales literally and figuratively and they had to cede the role and power to their descendants/'cousins across the pond'.

Last from me on this, in this thread.