Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[A_Gupta]

Per most of the media stories, only the “dry” Kaveri engine has a future. “Dry” is the term used for Kaveri without an afterburner. It also means Kaveri will never be a fighter jet engine.

Now this GoI press release says Raksha Mantri “witnessed the full afterburner engine test of the Kaveri engine” - which, if correct, means that the media does not have it quite right.

So, which is it?

[pravula]

We have some examples of AB fitted Kaveri in the labs. He probably saw someone turn the ignition key and move the accelerator pedal.

[Prem Kumar]

RM's speech was like rubbing salt into the wounds

1) Trickle-feed $100M for the entire Kaveri program vs $40B for Rafale (100X more)
2) Starving GTRE of funds, test facilities etc which has created an exodus of talent + disillusionment
3) Now pouring Billions into Safran in hopes of magical ToT which we all know will never arrive

But giving gyan to GTRE

Modi & Rajnath have created a baniya-culture in Defense R&D, under the veneer of Atmanirbharta

Like with the Software industry, any Indian Defense R&D company should focus 100% on exports. In India, only the 10% margin making, JV-drooling traders like Adani can survive

[csaurabh]

RM's speech was like rubbing salt into the wounds

1) Trickle-feed $100M for the entire Kaveri program vs $40B for Rafale (100X more)
2) Starving GTRE of funds, test facilities etc which has created an exodus of talent + disillusionment
3) Now pouring Billions into Safran in hopes of magical ToT which we all know will never arrive

But giving gyan to GTRE

Modi & Rajnath have created a baniya-culture in Defense R&D, under the veneer of Atmanirbharta

Like with the Software industry, any Indian Defense R&D company should focus 100% on exports. In India, only the 10% margin making, JV-drooling traders like Adani can survive

Yeah this is the feedback I'm getting from the DRDO centres these days.
Modi and co are trying to create a 'timetable' culture in DRDO. Wherein, all results are expected as per 'timetables', but without increasing the R&D spend or reducing the inane amounts of formalities or paperworks.

Guess who works well with a timetable culture? Import and assemble joint ventures renamed to atma-nirbhar !

[A_Gupta]

Third time I'm asking - as far as I know, DRDO has had some successes, some partial successes and some failures. All with the same babudom and political leadership. So what is the difference in these programs? Why do some deliver on a reasonable timetable, and others take years? How do some manage the inane amount of formalities and paperwork, and others do not?

Some of the books by the first generation of people in ISRO have anecdotes of how they cut through bureaucracy. Is that ability unevenly scattered through DRDO?

This blanket complaints repeated ad nauseaum here has little value in helping understand what is happening.

[uddu]

RM's speech on 5 years is to get the KDE variant flying. The rest are about inventing new tech and so and so. This is a good thing, since the KDE will not be limited to the Ghatak UCAV. It's afterburner variant will fly on Tejas MK1/MK1A.

[vera_k]

So what is the difference in these programs?

Couple of questions I can think of -

What other engine programs have been successful? ISRO's cryogenic engine?

What other engine programs have resulted in engines that support equipment carrying humans?

[uddu]

So what is the difference in these programs?

Couple of questions I can think of -

What other engine programs have been successful? ISRO's cryogenic engine?

What other engine programs have resulted in engines that support equipment carrying humans?

ISRO atleast got the test facilities they asked for. They can't take the Cryogenic engine abroad for testing. While DRDO is forced to rely on time consuming and very limited chances of testing options. Each time, send their engine to Russia and wait for years for slots. This I think is the one and only hindrance for achieving the goal of self reliance in aero engines.

[bala]

Aircraft engine story is based on WW-II victors grabbing an actual working version called BMW 003 engine. They got the funda for how to make it work from the Germans. Thus we have France, England, US and Russia as aircraft jet engine producers of the world. The Brit Frank Whittle claims the patent but he did not have a working engine. German Hans Von Ohain designed the first one that actually flew in 1939.

India's effort at GTRE is a good effort but unless and until we have a certified engine all things are up in the air. Lab testing is perhaps done but the difficult actual flying and extreme conditions are yet to be undertaken. Babus and Politicos don't know what it takes to have "working" engine vs things that are apparently working in a lab. If money is not forthcoming for such facilities we can be assured of no progress for a long time, it is back to screwdrivergiri stuff and ToT blah. India requires test facilities to make the next quantum leap forward. All the rest is hot air nonsense.

[bala]

ISRO atleast got the test facilities they asked for. They can't take the Cryogenic engine abroad for testing. While DRDO is forced to rely on time consuming and very limited chances of testing options. Each time, send their engine to Russia and wait for years for slots. This I think is the one and only hindrance for achieving the goal of self reliance in aero engines.

ISRO tested the liquid engine using France's test facility. Later Satish Dhawan sanctioned ISRO their test facility in Mahendragiri. Now ISRO can test their engines in static configuration.

For Aero engines the requirements are drastic. Not only does it need to work but it has to be reliable and work in all conditions - hail, snow, storm, dust, bird hits and so on. India also requires a test facility like GE Ohio test center, where the previous conditions are simulated and tested. Russia has a test facility like GE Ohio besides the IL aircraft test bed.

Without constant testing and re-jigging the engine aero engines cannot pass certification to be deployed on fighter jets. It is too risky.

[uddu]

Two videos in the link
https://x.com/Kunal_Biswas707/status/20 ... 7570675034
@Kunal_Biswas707
The Kaveri engine with afterburner in 2008–10 produced clear blue and violet shock diamonds. Later, in 2017 at Aero India, it showed technology infusion from French SAFRAN. The current 2026 demonstration seems a progress that will be shown to the defence minister.

[csaurabh]

Third time I'm asking - as far as I know, DRDO has had some successes, some partial successes and some failures. All with the same babudom and political leadership. So what is the difference in these programs? Why do some deliver on a reasonable timetable, and others take years? How do some manage the inane amount of formalities and paperwork, and others do not?

Some of the books by the first generation of people in ISRO have anecdotes of how they cut through bureaucracy. Is that ability unevenly scattered through DRDO?

This blanket complaints repeated ad nauseaum here has little value in helping understand what is happening.

A strategy or method can't be evaluated on the basis of the outcome of some people being successful. Due to luck or having really skilled people your bad strategies may also work occasionally. That does not mean that the strategy is good.

To use an analogy, supposing a group of five of us are dropped into an unknown place and tasked with walking to an unknown destination. There are five roads in front of us. Lacking any further information, we all pick a road at random. If you are lucky you can get to the destination rightaway. Maybe if there is time then after wandering down the wrong road for a while someone will backtrack and find the right road.

If you just look at the outcome, you can come to the conclusion that there are some smart guys who succeeded and the rest were just bums who took too long to get there or didn't get there at all. I hope it's obvious that this is a bad conclusion. The right conclusion would be that the strategy of picking a road at random wasn't a very good one. A better strategy would be to come equipped with maps, or GPS.

Enter the timetable-walas. These people insist that the reason why there are so many failures is because of people lacking timetables. So their solution is to do the same thing, but instead of equipping us with maps or GPS, they equip us with timetables and watches and insist that you now need to finish it according to the timetable. It should be clear as to why this is a bad solution.

[bala]

Not quite engine related but I want to draw attention to how Indian Navy deals with things. They took over ship building in its entirety with design engineers and so forth. With HAL they had their own test pilot working on Naval Tejas. Complete synch with developing the extra heavy hydraulics for carrier landing. Contrast this with the IAF and their timetables.

Meanwhile L&T
India’s Micro Turbojet: L&T & Green Aero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjvDPMhv2wE

[A_Gupta]

I don’t think DRDO successes were due to luck. Perhaps a a high threshold on ability in order to succeed in that ecosystem is the issue?

[drnayar]

Two videos in the link
https://x.com/Kunal_Biswas707/status/20 ... 7570675034
@Kunal_Biswas707
The Kaveri engine with afterburner in 2008–10 produced clear blue and violet shock diamonds. Later, in 2017 at Aero India, it showed technology infusion from French SAFRAN. The current 2026 demonstration seems a progress that will be shown to the defence minister.

https://raksha-anirveda.com/historic-mi ... ises-hope/

The new BrahMos Aerospace – designed afterburner module addresses these shortcomings head-on. Tailored for the KDE core, it targets 81-83 kN of wet thrust—or around 78-80 kN in conservative estimates—offering a 60 per cent or greater leap over the dry baseline.

[bala]

Yes more reports confirming:

83 kN Kaveri Jet Engine Breakthrough: Can India Finally Power Its Own Fighters Jets I Aadi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN8OBrrFfPk

// also talks about weight reduction of engine.

[suryag]

^^^^ wish this is true, tired of waiting --- "kab aayegi bijli(in swades movie) "

[uddu]

GTRE Demonstrated "Full After Burner"

[uddu]

Finally Good news on Tejas Mk1A & Mk2 | हिंदी में

[vera_k]

That afterburner video looks to be from somewhere in the USA going by the flag above the test facility.

[uddu]

That afterburner video looks to be from somewhere in the USA going by the flag above the test facility.

That's GE engine. Used to mention the current engines in use for MK1 and MK2 variants.
As per video the engine demonstration done to Rajnath singh is that of the Kaveri that is already ready from 15 years, probably a variant of that and not the KDE variant. The video from Shiv Aroor's channel is available in Youtube. This must be what Raksha Mantri saw.
Kaveri Engine Dry & Wet Thrust Demo

[uddu]

Once Kaveri start flying, there could be further slightly larger TWIN ENGINE Tejas MK3 variant based on the Tejas MK2 that will address the range and payload issues while having all the tech that is developed for the Tejas MK2 and AMCA project. Rather than suiting the engines for the aircraft, there could be a new line of aircrafts that can fly on indigenous engines.

Also there is an urgent need to have a higher thrust Kaveri 2 project based on the already existing technology developed for the Kaveri KDE variant. This will help replacement options available for the F414 engines on the Tejas MK2.

[uddu]

Once Kaveri start flying, there could be further slightly larger TWIN ENGINE Tejas MK3 variant based on the Tejas MK2 that will address the range and payload issues while having all the tech that is developed for the Tejas MK2 and AMCA project. Rather than suiting the engines for the aircraft, there could be a new line of aircrafts that can fly on indigenous engines.

Also there is an urgent need to have a higher thrust Kaveri 2 project based on the already existing technology developed for the Kaveri KDE variant. This will help replacement options available for the F414 engines on the Tejas MK2.

The below is an image that used to be on BR of the indigenous MCA that Jingoes of BR used to dream about. A Kaveri engine fitted semi stealth aircraft could be worked on once Tejas MK2 starts flying.
https://x.com/idrwalerts/status/1971478204344041971
@idrwalerts
Kind of reminded me of 4.5 Gen Proposed MCA Design that Featured 2D TVC and No Tail Design

[Rakesh]

Kaveri to Tejas Delays: Crisis of India's Missing Jet Engine

How is that India, a country capable of sending probes to the dark side of the Moon, still struggles to build a fighter jet engine? With the deliveries of the Tejas Mk1A delayed due to supply chain issues with the GE F404 engines, the spotlight is back on India's critical vulnerability: we don't have a heart for our fighter jets. In this episode of In Our Defence, host Dev Goswami and defence and national security expert Sandeep Unnithan sit down to demystify the magic of jet engine technology. From the "Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow" basics to the high-tech world of Single Crystal Blades and metallurgy that operates above melting points, the two break down exactly why this technology is the exclusive domain of just a handful of nations. The episode also digs deep into the history of the DRDO's Kaveri engine project. Was it really a failure and was putting it on the backburner a mistake? Plus, what can we expect from the upcoming mega-deal with France's Safran for the AMCA's engine?

[Rakesh]

Kaveri to Tejas Delays: Crisis of India's Missing Jet Engine

How is that India, a country capable of sending probes to the dark side of the Moon, still struggles to build a fighter jet engine? With the deliveries of the Tejas Mk1A delayed due to supply chain issues with the GE F404 engines, the spotlight is back on India's critical vulnerability: we don't have a heart for our fighter jets. In this episode of In Our Defence, host Dev Goswami and defence and national security expert Sandeep Unnithan sit down to demystify the magic of jet engine technology. From the "Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow" basics to the high-tech world of Single Crystal Blades and metallurgy that operates above melting points, the two break down exactly why this technology is the exclusive domain of just a handful of nations. The episode also digs deep into the history of the DRDO's Kaveri engine project. Was it really a failure and was putting it on the backburner a mistake? Plus, what can we expect from the upcoming mega-deal with France's Safran for the AMCA's engine?

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/20 ... 22974?s=20 --->

Image 1: Integrated structure of the ATV Project which has delivered Independent India’s greatest defence tech breakthrough - a fleet of four nuclear-propelled ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) - 1998-2025. @indiannavy driven.

Image 2: Four silos- MoD, DRDO, HAL, IAF… which are tasked to deliver a 5th gen jet engine, 5th & 6th gen fighters, TEDBF...

In this #inourdefence podcast I argue why services must drive programs. Else we will be in eternal Groundhog Day mode. For heavens sake learn fm the ATVP!

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/2023 ... 45762?s=20 ---> India kicks off ₹61,000-crore National Aero Engine Mission: a 120 kN fighter-jet engine JV with France for the AMCA program, while a parallel study runs with the UK. The aim : to end decades of import dependence and compress development timelines. P.S. I actually like this approach: it effectively pits Safran vs Rolls‑Royce Holdings if you want a share of a ₹61,000-crore pie, you better deliver.

Tweet below is in reply to the above tweet...

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/2023729091518542141?s=20 ---> Well the new info says the aeroengine project with both the OEMs would be of separate categories. Safran has more or less got the 61k cr project for 120kn. With RR, we will do something else.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/lakshmishaks/status/20235 ... 76727?s=20 ---> India kicks off ₹61,000 crore National Aero Engine Mission: 120kN fighter jet engine JV with France for AMCA; parallel UK study underway. Push is to end decades of import reliance and compress timelines—signal to move from 5th-gen to 6th-gen propulsion capabilities.

[Rakesh]

Rajnath Singh Pushes for Indigenous 6th-Generation Aero Engines, Calls for Faster Timelines at GTRE
https://bharatshakti.in/rajnath-singh-p ... s-at-gtre/
16 Feb 2026

[maitya]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/2023 ... 45762?s=20 ---> India kicks off ₹61,000-crore National Aero Engine Mission: a 120 kN fighter-jet engine JV with France for the AMCA program, while a parallel study runs with the UK. The aim : to end decades of import dependence and compress development timelines. P.S. I actually like this approach: it effectively pits Safran vs Rolls‑Royce Holdings if you want a share of a ₹61,000-crore pie, you better deliver.

Tweet below is in reply to the above tweet...

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/2023729091518542141?s=20 ---> Well the new info says the aeroengine project with both the OEMs would be of separate categories. Safran has more or less got the 61k cr project for 120kn. With RR, we will do something else.

Hopefully with RR we focus on the 100KN 5th Gen TF ... of the EJ2x0 (72KN/103KN) class!!

[Manish_P]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/2023 ... 45762?s=20 ---> .... I actually like this approach: it effectively pits Safran vs Rolls‑Royce Holdings if you want a share of a ₹61,000-crore pie, you better deliver.

Tweet below is in reply to the above tweet...

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/2023729091518542141?s=20 ---> Well the new info says the aeroengine project with both the OEMs would be of separate categories. Safran has more or less got the 61k cr project for 120kn. With RR, we will do something else.

In french - Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
and in English - The more things change, the more they stay the same

[Prem Kumar]

So, to reduce foreign dependence, we are embarking on 2 multi-billion, decade-long projects with 2 foreign vendors

If we let Adani import Unitree robots, put Made-in-India stamp on them, kit them out with AK-203 and let them fight on our behalf, our Atmanirbharta in Infantry will also be complete

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/LancerFlying/status/20230 ... 08158?s=20 ---> Today our whole indigenous combat aircraft program from LCA Mk1 to the AMCA and TEDBF are stuck with a SINGLE VENDOR for its SINGLE MOST CRITICAL component, the engine and hostage to the fickle US sanctions regime. Kamaal Hai.

https://x.com/LancerFlying/status/20229 ... 02599?s=20 ---> REALITY: GE Aerospace had placed the specific production line for India's F404-IN20 into "maintenance mode" (effectively a dormancy period) for about five years. As of early 2026, the situation has shifted from a total halt to a complex and expensive restart.

https://x.com/LancerFlying/status/20229 ... 02599?s=20 ---> Basically, India is financing the GE assembly line for an engine that GE stopped producing due to lack of orders. When govt placed a massive follow-on order for 83 (and later 97) more Mk1As, GE had to essentially "restart" a dead supply chain.

https://x.com/LancerFlying/status/20229 ... 09429?s=20 ---> I don't need to emphasise on the future threat that this poses in the long term availability of spares and support, that too the most critical part of our domestic front line combat aircraft. Without engines the aircraft is just a lump of very expensive metallic shit!

[SRajesh]

^^^
question:
1. what was the technical need for mating 404 to Tejas airframe : meaning was this a DRDO/NAL?HAL decision given the specifications in the airframe or was it IAF/Operator decision given the engine performance and power.
2. At the time of LSP was it not known that prodcution line had gone silent. And if known again whose decsion for the same engine??
3. In all this what role did MOD/Babu's play
4. As the saga encompasses multiple governments : what role did the politicians and politics play in negotiating this engine deal??

[vera_k]

Someone previously said that using GE engines and drip feeding funds to domestic engine programs was a confidence building measure offered by India to the US in the 90s. Maybe. We've seen similar head scratching dynamics in play with the IUCNA.

[bala]

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/20 ... 22974?s=20 --->

Image 1: Integrated structure of the ATV Project which has delivered Independent India’s greatest defence tech breakthrough - a fleet of four nuclear-propelled ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) - 1998-2025. @indiannavy driven.

Image 2: Four silos- MoD, DRDO, HAL, IAF… which are tasked to deliver a 5th gen jet engine, 5th & 6th gen fighters, TEDBF...

In this #inourdefence podcast I argue why services must drive programs. Else we will be in eternal Groundhog Day mode. For heavens sake learn fm the ATVP!

On this ATVP: the synergy between DRDO, Navy and Barc was possible since Navy understands developement and the need to focus properly on project objectives without being a PinAss.

The other model of DRDO, HAL, IAF and MOD - these entities are not in synch with each other. IAF definitely is not interested in developement model. MOD are entirely clueless 1 exam wonder dudes. If you put DRDO, HAL and Navy for build out of a naval engine then things would have happened. The Naval engine for aircraft means an engine for navy boats. Navy could then work on a TEDBF aircraft but Exclude the IAF from the picture and MOD babus. These two entities are naysayers and road blocks. Once you have the naval engine and TEDBF then the IAF twin engine ORCA is possible since all the tech hurdles are way past.

[Manish_Sharma]

Himanshu Jain on twitter wrote:

Intra-ecosystem synergy
DRDO needed an afterburner that wouldn’t melt or add dead weight — so they tapped BrahMos Aerospace.

High-temp metallurgy + precision ramjet manufacturing stabilized fuel injection under extreme heat.
Result: 60%+ surge from ~50 kN dry to 81–83 kN wet thrust
TWR now ~7.8:1 — decades-old bottleneck broken!

This is true Aatmanirbharta in action.
https://x.com/HemanNamo/status/2025981771691802797?s=20

[uddu]

its 73 (Thurst of Kaveri with afterburner) to 83 now with Brahmos AB is about 14 percent thrust increase.

Himanshu Jain on twitter wrote:

Intra-ecosystem synergy
DRDO needed an afterburner that wouldn’t melt or add dead weight — so they tapped BrahMos Aerospace.

High-temp metallurgy + precision ramjet manufacturing stabilized fuel injection under extreme heat.
Result: 60%+ surge from ~50 kN dry to 81–83 kN wet thrust
TWR now ~7.8:1 — decades-old bottleneck broken!

This is true Aatmanirbharta in action.
https://x.com/HemanNamo/status/2025981771691802797?s=20

[bala]

This collaboration with Brahmos should have occurred long ago. The program manager for Kaveri was sleeping. Sometimes the solutions are within and identifying them is their job. Anyways we are back to certification and testing the engine, how much more wasted time on this activity due to videshi test facilities. This should make the MOD babus sanction the appropriate test facilities including an aircraft with 4 engines. A GE Ohio like test facility for environment level testing is required. BTW bird hit testing is a requirement of certification and so are things like hail, storm dust, rain and so forth.

[drnayar]

This collaboration with Brahmos should have occurred long ago. The program manager for Kaveri was sleeping. Sometimes the solutions are within and identifying them is their job. Anyways we are back to certification and testing the engine, how much more wasted time on this activity due to videshi test facilities. This should make the MOD babus sanction the appropriate test facilities including an aircraft with 4 engines. A GE Ohio like test facility for environment level testing is required. BTW bird hit testing is a requirement of certification and so are things like hail, storm dust, rain and so forth.

its weird everything was available in the country for nearly a decade !!

now what .. is the question !

tbh another round of sanctions from Ameeerikis is probably needed to put everything together in a war fighting mode

[A_Gupta]

So, to reduce foreign dependence, we are embarking on 2 multi-billion, decade-long projects with 2 foreign vendors

To reduce the risk of being dependent on one foreign supplier, India is embarking on projects with two foreign suppliers.

IMO, if there are resources available, then India should also embark on a third project with the Russians. But that may be stretching it too thin.