Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion

[Manish_Sharma]

Fourth, the Unmanned drones are a threat to both surface ships and submarines. There are Underwater drones that can be deployed along areas and keep looking for submarines and either fire torpedoes or ram into submarines.

Submarines hide they undetected,

While a Carrier.... we'll it's unhidable...

[uddu]

Risk is there is every aspect of operations. Be it CBG or Submarines. Whatever you said is all true and possible. There is other aspects too. I will just put out some coutner scenarios for fun.

SMART type missiles are mostly meant to be used against submarines...

It's torpedo can hit anything subsurface or surface there will be no limitation to tie it exclusively to subsurface prey

True. For Surface fleets you have the ITCM's, Brahmos, Hypersonic AShM etc that will be used first, including the air launched Brahmos and Harpoons the upcoming Brahmos NG, NASM-MR, Submarine launched AshM. SMART having lesser range will be more like last resort. There is a need to try and test a Electric Heavy Weight Torpedo type on a larger missile that can give 1500km reach to target surface targets and even deeper diving and faster submarines including nuclear ones.
If it's a declared war and the Chinese CBG is ont he other side, the first action will be in the Malacca strait and Sunda strait. Those will be heavily mined by both sides on who is going to enter where. Both sides will be waiting to ambush the other. The Chinese could enter the IOR through Timor sea or other areas but will take longer time.
Then these things will come into play. If they are already deployed in IOR be it at Djibouti or Hambantota etc, then it's a different game altogether.
The number of missiles launched against them will be massive.

[uddu]

Fourth, the Unmanned drones are a threat to both surface ships and submarines. There are Underwater drones that can be deployed along areas and keep looking for submarines and either fire torpedoes or ram into submarines.

Submarines hide they undetected,

While a Carrier.... we'll it's unhidable...

Only against a country that has assets to detect it including satellites and other assets deployed to detect them and ensuring active tracking. Else the targeting become much more difficult since the CBG will be moving and you miss hitting them once you launch the missile anticipating the Carrier to be in a particular area while it will be somewhere else. Iranians did fail initially to accurately target the U.S CSG. Recent success could be due to someone aiding them in relaying live tracking data. Could be Chinese. Could be Russians. Could be their own subs.

[ashthor]

We can argue all we like. But carriers are not going away. US is building more, as is China
and India wants more. Nothing more to say.

[Manish_P]

We can argue all we like. But carriers are not going away. US is building more, as is China
and India wants more. Nothing more to say.

True

But they are all building a lot more submarines. A whole lot more.

So in the absence of comparable budgets and comparable industrial capability it boils down to a question of priority.

[Rakesh]

We can argue all we like. But carriers are not going away. US is building more, as is China
and India wants more. Nothing more to say.

True

But they are all building a lot more submarines. A whole lot more.

So in the absence of comparable budgets and comparable industrial capability it boils down to a question of priority.

Bingo!

In the pipeline for submarines ---> Project 75 SSK (six boats to be retrofitted with DRDO AIP), Project 75AS SSK (three planned), Project 75I (six boats), Project 76 SSK, Project 77 SSN (two planned + additional hulls down the road), Arihant Class SSBN (4 + 1) and S5 Class SSBN (5 boats planned).

In the pipeline for aircraft carriers ---> Zero. Khallas. Khatam. Bye Bye. The design for IAC-2 has to be finalized and CCS approval comes much later than that. Then comes keel laying, hull construction, floating out and final fitment. Good Luck!

One Finite Money Pot and BRFites are arguing about aircraft carriers vs submarines

[uddu]

Eventually we must end up with
5 AC including 2 Vikrant class+ 3 Vishal class (Though assured is 1 Vikrant+1 or 2 Vishal). If it's 2-3 AC's we will need 2 more helicopter carriers in the 20,000+ ton category (Non imported, Desi design).
30 Conventional submarines (24(6 Kalvari+6P75I+12P76)+6 Midget subs) and
6 SSN's.

2 Aridhaman class
6 S5
Convert 2 Arihant to SSGN once the S5 starts getting inducted

[V_Raman]

Why do we need catapult based carriers when VSTOL modules are now mainstream? cant india develop a domestic one with RR VSTOL module used in F35?

[bala]

^^ tis ridiculous to get to F35 propulsion by India. We don't even have a working aircraft engine, and to think about F35 class propulsion? It is better we learn to walk first with Kaveri engine.

[vera_k]

There's other types of aircraft besides fighters that can be embarked on catapult based carriers.

[srin]

Risk is there is every aspect of operations. Be it CBG or Submarines. Whatever you said is all true and possible. There is other aspects too. I will just put out some coutner scenarios for fun.

SMART type missiles are mostly meant to be used against submarines...

It's torpedo can hit anything subsurface or surface there will be no limitation to tie it exclusively to subsurface prey

SMART uses LWT which doesn't have enough oomph in it to break the keel. You need a HWT for that.

[drnayar]

^^ tis ridiculous to get to F35 propulsion by India. We don't even have a working aircraft engine, and to think about F35 class propulsion? It is better we learn to walk first with Kaveri engine.

India has made documented progress in the critical building blocks required for advanced propulsion:
DRDO's Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) has successfully developed and supplied nickel-based SCBs capable of withstanding the extreme temperatures found in modern jet cores.
India has capability to manufacture high-pressure compressor discs using specialised isothermal forge presses for titanium alloys.

I would say yes., there is capability ., needs sustained funding and effort and fully established comprehensive test facilities.

Then time is the critical factor., test / validate /repeat .. we will get there

Not magic

Just hard work

[V_Raman]

This whole catapult based carriers might become obsolete pretty fast due to mainstreaming of VSTOL especially with drones. RR VSTOL module seems reusable across engines.

[bala]

we will get there

Not magic

Just hard work

Dr Nayar saar, the vertical take off requires a lift fan and people like Paul Michael Bevilaqua were involved since 1990s. The final contract was given to Rolls Royce for the F-35 lift fan. The aero dynamics of switching from vertical lift to regular thrust of the engine is another tricky area which is prone to stalling and crashing the craft. Vice versa is even more tricky. A lot of work is required to master such intricacies. The thrust generated by Pratt&Whitney F135 makes 191 kN of thrust with afterburner.

[drnayar]

we will get there

Not magic

Just hard work

Dr Nayar saar, the vertical take off requires a lift fan and people like Paul Michael Bevilaqua were involved since 1990s. The final contract was given to Rolls Royce for the F-35 lift fan. The aero dynamics of switching from vertical lift to regular thrust of the engine is another tricky area which is prone to stalling and crashing the craft. Vice versa is even more tricky. A lot of work is required to master such intricacies. The thrust generated by Pratt&Whitney F135 makes 191 kN of thrust with afterburner.

my bad., you are referring to the F35B STOVL . the shaft-driven lift fan is indeed a landmark in aerospace engineering, primarily credited to Paul Michael Bevilaqua of Lockheed Martin’s Skunk Works.

Instrumental in lockheed getting the F35 contract for JSF !

[Manish_P]

...
In the pipeline for submarines ---> Project 75 SSK (six boats to be retrofitted with DRDO AIP), Project 75AS SSK (three planned), Project 75I (six boats), Project 76 SSK, Project 77 SSN (two planned + additional hulls down the road), Arihant Class SSBN (4 + 1) and S5 Class SSBN (5 boats planned).
...

Good. I would personally be very happy if we had a planned and approved pipeline for development and induction of a good number of large UUVs. For coastal patrol duties to begin with... then on to sea denial. Vision 2047 of the IN must include them.

...
One Finite Money Pot and BRFites are arguing about aircraft carriers vs submarines

Same with Air power - 5th Gen vs Cheap drones.

No contact punch ups are the fun times guaranteed in a democracy

[Manish_Sharma]

Commodore Jaideep Maolankar (Retd) was advocating 'catapult+ski jump' together on next carrier

[Manish_P]

Commodore Jaideep Maolankar (Retd) was advocating 'catapult+ski jump' together on next carrier

Ski-jump as backup for the catapult or ...?

[Manish_Sharma]

Commodore Jaideep Maolankar (Retd) was advocating 'catapult+ski jump' together on next carrier

Ski-jump as backup for the catapult or ...?

Both together catapult takes fighter to the ski jump; then jets gets extra push taking off from ski jump because of ski-jump shape

[Manish_Sharma]

Was torn between posting in 'West Asia/iran' thread or here:

https://x.com/daeroplate_v2/status/2041 ... 12912?s=20

has to be the first war the US got into where the carriers are not left, right, center on MSM, projecting force.

a few sporadic raids with one F18 dinged over chah bahar seems to be the net contrib due to need to put some safe distance

the tripoli was also allegedly chased off

in 1991 desert storm there was a mass of USN ships inside the gulf , incl the smaller midway and ranger 60k ton carriers

in eyeraqi freedom 2003, there were 3 inside the persian gulf, including one CVN

I would say this is the biggest change to carrier employment in last decade, brought on by maturity in rivals ISR nets , spy trawlers shadowing TFs to relay approx boxes, fast solid fuel missiles and ASBM tech

fanboys used to joke about the DF-21 asbm and point out holes in its targetting chain...not so now I guess when PRC systems are 15 yrs more mature

from roaming inside the gulf like a big boss, to abandoning the 5th fleet bahrain base and its LCS and minesweepers scurrying off to singapore (spotted near penang) is a steep fall in standoff power

[Manish_P]

...
Both together catapult takes fighter to the ski jump; then jets gets extra push taking off from ski jump because of ski-jump shape

Thanks. That's interesting. Any such examples?

Not saying it's a bad idea or that we shouldn't do it if others haven't. Just wondering what are the pros and cons.

I don't see any major challenges in construction of such a design. But then again I am not an engineer...

[Manish_Sharma]

Thanks. That's interesting. Any such examples?

No, I am trying to locate that post & following discussions,he wrote it last year iirc