Climate Change: Propaganda Vs Reality

[Jay]

There’s a certain elegance to how none of that connects...

[Amber G.]

The study (Nature journal paper you linked) is quite serious and not “propaganda.”

I do not think it's propaganda. My question was to climate change skeptics here(no judgment) on this thread. When they see a news ticker quoting this paper, how would they approach it and more importantly what would they suggest the decision makers do with this data?

I knew, you did not think that was propaganda, that why I made serious comments. Just leave this for you:

Sanskrit Shloka from the Niti Satakam by Bhartrihari.

लभेत सिकतासु तैलमपि यत्नत: पीडयन्, पिबेच्च मृगतृष्णिकासु सलिलं पिपासार्दित:|
कदाचिदपि पर्यटन् शशविषाणमासादयेत्, न तु प्रतिनिविष्टमूर्खजनचित्तमाराधयेत्॥


There’s a certain elegance to how all (none) of that connects...

[Vayutuvan]

(From memory) Following is the Telugu translation of the above by Ēnugu Lakṣmaṇakavi

తివిరి ఇసుమున తైలంబు తీయవచ్చు | దవిలి మృగతృష్ణలో నీరు త్రాగవచ్చు |
తిరిగి కుందేటికొమ్ము సాధించవచ్చు | జేరి మూర్ఖుల మనసు రంజింప రాదు ||

I up the ante since the game is being played with insults as the currency.

One who knows he knows not is ignorant; teach him.
One who knows not he knows is sleeping; wake him up.
One who knows he knows is a wiseman; follow him.
One who knows not he knows not is a knave; shun him.

[Vayutuvan]

There’s a certain elegance to how none of that connects...

I don't have a problem with the paper nor am I a climate change skeptic. I certainly am a climate change solutions skeptic, especially if the solutions are coming from Western/Eurotrash. I am also including those who want to hold the entire world hostage to feel good about themselves, that they are doing something about it. Their real interests are to protect their nice houses in coastal areas.

Let us not forget that they are bicoastals - left and right. They think that their millions of dollar properties are going to go under in the next 20 years, i.e., before their retirement. The solution? Move manufacturing to China. There is a name for that kind of fallacious thinking.
It is called the Netherlands Fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_fallacy

The Netherlands fallacy refers to an error Paul R. Ehrlich and his co-authors claim others make in assuming that the environmental impacts of the Netherlands and other rich nations are contained within their national borders.[1]

Environmentalists since the late 20th century have analyzed the environmental sink status and sink capacities of poor nations. As polluting industries migrate from rich to poor nations, the national ecological footprint of rich nations shrinks, whereas the international ecological footprint may increase or also decrease. The nature of the fallacy is to ignore increasing environmental damage in many developing nations and in international waters attributable to the imported goods or changes in the economy of such nations directly due to developed nations.

Such an approach may lead to incorrect assertions such as the environmental impact of a particular developed country is reducing, when a holistic, international approach suggests the opposite. This may in turn support over-optimistic predictions toward the improvement of global environmental conditions.[2]

The Netherlands has had a huge impact regarding leaving water footprints across the world. They have made this footprint by importing water from other countries, leaving increasingly scarce regions. Water footprints of a country can come from either water resources used internally or resources that are outsourced. Dutch consumers have left most of their water footprint through agricultural goods and industrial goods.[3]

They are also the ones who objected most strenuously to nuclear power. In the US it was the NIMBY factor. In Europe, due to wrong priorities. Germany is a case in point.

[Amber G.]

Folks - Few Comments!
On..

(From memory) Following is the Telugu translation of the above by Ēnugu Lakṣmaṇakavi

తివిరి ఇసుమున తైలంబు తీయవచ్చు | దవిలి మృగతృష్ణలో నీరు త్రాగవచ్చు |
తిరిగి కుందేటికొమ్ము సాధించవచ్చు | జేరి మూర్ఖుల మనసు రంజింప రాదు ||

I up the ante since the game is being played with insults as the currency.

One who knows he knows not is ignorant; teach him.
One who knows not he knows is sleeping; wake him up.
One who knows he knows is a wiseman; follow him.
One who knows not he knows not is a knave; shun him.

The translation, is quite accurate.. Thanks.
(Is that a popular saying in Telugu too?
__
Given my decades of experience in classrooms, I have seen this kind play out many times.. .. as I recall someone said {I am recalling, my Telugu is a little rusty} in Osmania..

Upadesha" (Teacher's) Perspective:

జ్ఞానం అనేది ఒక పాత్ర వంటిది; దాని మూత తెరిచి ఉంటేనే అది నిండుతుంది. కానీ మూర్ఖుడికి ఆ మూత కేవలం మూసివేయబడటమే కాదు, అది పూర్తిగా అతుక్కుపోయి (వెల్డింగ్ చేయబడి) ఉంటుంది. ఆ పద్యం చెప్పినట్లుగా, అసాధ్యమైన 'కుందేటి కొమ్ము' (శశవిషాణం) కోసం వెతకడం మేలు; అంతేకానీ మూర్ఖుడిని ఒప్పించడానికి ప్రయత్నించడం మన సమయాన్ని వృథా చేసుకోవడమే!"

Rough Translation:
Knowledge is a vessel; it can only be filled if the lid is open. For the mūrkha, the lid is not just closed—it is welded shut. As the verse says, let us go find that rabbit’s horn (kurmā-shringa)—it’s a more productive use of our afternoon!
----
Last here: There is another famous subhashita:

स्वायत्तमेकान्तगुणं विधात्रा विनिर्मितं छादनमज्ञतायाः।

Rough equivalence: "It is easier to calculate the n-th digit of Pi using a broken abacus than it is to convince a man who has already decided he is right. The sand might give oil eventually, but a closed mind only gives a headache!"

[Vayutuvan]

I want to make the following points.

1. Europeans and the US do not want India to be self-sufficient in the area of energy.
2. They want to close off all options for India so that India is dependent on
- Short Term: KSA, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, the US, and central asian countries for fossil fuels (which the US controls)
- Long Term: India should import the technology - may it be "clean coal", Nuclear (SMRs and fuel), Solar, Wind from the West for which they
have IP rights. They want to earn money through royalties, licence fees. They also have control and want to gain geopolitical leverage on
India.
3. They want India to side with them when (not if) they go to war with China.
4. They want India to buy weapon platforms from the US (preferably) or one of their close allies (not France).
...
ityadi.

They want to hobble India through all kinds of multilateral agreements, and one of the top ones is the shindy they put up in Rio, Paris, Vancouver, Tokyo, etc., on climate change.

I am objecting to the gullibility of those who are technically more than competent but think that the science/tech they have expertise in will magically solve all energy problems. No other solution(s) is/are possible.

For example, Moniz is a sacred cow who should not be criticized even when criticism is warranted due to his equating India and Pakistan because both are nuclear powers. Same with the SMR tech for which India has to depend on the US companies. As for the thorium cycle, it is still 20 years away. Also we should not forget that "there is many a slip betwixt the cup and the lip".

I am being called a "fool", "compromised", "pompous" (that is a new one), "uncle tom" etc. which is OK. It diminishes them, not me.

[Vayutuvan]

Folks - Few Comments!

The translation, is quite accurate.. Thanks.
(Is that a popular saying in Telugu too?

It is not popular as such. Telugu poetry is required reading in Telugu classes. We had to memorize a few important ones from Niti Shataka (the most famous translation is by Enugu Lakshmana Kavi), Sumati shatakamu, Vemana shatakam, Bhaskara shatakamu, ...

[bala]

The hypocrisy on climate change is a sight to behold. All the lectures on CO2 and its effects on climate. Climate itself is due to 100s if not 1000s of factors and is very hard to predict reliably. However the climate debate has turned into a religion from pompous people. Let us review facts:

US consumes 20 million gallons of crude per day, China around 17 million per day and India around 5+ million per day. So you can gauge who is the worst of the lot in generating C02. Furthermore the Coal fired plants that generate electricity are the highest in US, then China (maybe even more than the US) and then India. The latter two nations are moving towards renewable energy since they are in the favorable sun belt. On a per capita basis the same ranking holds - US, China and then India (which in the world is very very tiny). This per capita consumption includes aircrafts that directly spew C02 in the atmosphere and cause all kinds of issues including depleting the ozone layer of the earth. Then there are sprays like CFC which have a direct bearing on ozone layer. I haven't talked about EU collectively but they rank up there with the rest.

India has a tradition of minimal usage and also using biodegradable products - banana leaves, et al. Plastics, bottles, aluminum cans and other packaging material are a nightmare in terms of recycling worldwide. Most of them are a result of US or Europe in terms of origination of such materials. These things are not going away soon but have to be managed sensibly by collection and recycling.

[Amber G.]

Folks - Few Comments!

The translation, is quite accurate.. Thanks.
(Is that a popular saying in Telugu too?

It is not popular as such. Telugu poetry is required reading in Telugu classes. We had to memorize a few important ones from Niti Shataka (the most famous translation is by Enugu Lakshmana Kavi), Sumati shatakamu, Vemana shatakam, Bhaskara shatakamu, ...

Thanks. FWIW saw something you may enjoy it (In math dhaga I wrote about this father - son pair - a legend too)

[KL Dubey]

The scientific journal 'Nature' recently published a scientific paper saying newer varieties of rice are not evolving as fast as the global temperatures are raising and in about 50 years South Asia and East Asia are predicted to exceed 40c threshold in the rice belt. They say this temperature threshold is crucial because this is where cultivation of rice will start to dwindle.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-025-03108-0

So, if one is a policy planner, farmer, or an investor how will this paper guide you? Should this be addressed as a potential issue, or just be ignored as climate change propaganda?

It's a terrific paper, poster "Amber G" has summarized the takeaways.

Just a small clarification, the journal is Communications Earth & Environment, which is one of the Nature Group journals. It's not in the journal Nature itself.

[Vayutuvan]

Thanks. FWIW saw something you may enjoy it (In math dhaga I wrote about this father - son pair - a legend too)

I did read it. Very interesting.

[bala]

Very interesting.

In Rocket movie, Dr. Nambi Narayanan of ISRO mentioned that to get stability in rocket trajectory some instability is required (actually it is induced) to make the flight stable. This is similar to what M. Vidyasagar concluded in control theory which is great. There is the other Upadrasta Vidyasagar musician from AP who is an outstanding composer, many of his song compositions I like.