India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Manohar
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India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Manohar » 02 Oct 2002 02:37

Hi - I've been off the forum for a while, so I'm sorry if this topic has been recently discussed.

Given the recent traffic on Indian-related Web sites about the State Dept. momentarily blocking the sale of the Arrow missile defence system, I would like to hear thoughts on whether the Indian military would prefer the Arrow to the S-300, on a pure performance basis.

Thanks,
--Manohar.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Rudra » 02 Oct 2002 02:44

why lock? atleast some reasonable fun compared
to the death & mayhem reported in other forum.

S-300 is not a ATBM system. Arrow is.

S-400 is supposed to be a ATGM though havent
seen any details of what it can intercept or
its radar.

India is going to license produce 25 batteries of
S-300(latest mod) for area air defence.

I guess GoI would prefer a Arrow+GreenPine system
for ATBM work over S-400(?) 5 batteries can cover
the vital areas to west. depends on how kind
D.C. feels.

I would say screw it all and just go in...

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Rangudu » 02 Oct 2002 03:22

S-300 is an air defence system as compared to the Arrow-Green pine which is AD plus ATBM.

Therefore I figured this discussion is moot.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby mohan » 02 Oct 2002 03:23

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:

India is going to license produce 25 batteries of
S-300(latest mod) for area air defence.

I thought we were still bargaining with the Russians. Does licensed production automatically imply tech transfer AKA MKI ?

Cheers
Mohan

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby davidn » 02 Oct 2002 06:12

the russians claim that one version of their S-300 has ATBM capability

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Div » 02 Oct 2002 09:09

Originally posted by davidn:
the russians claim that one version of their S-300 has ATBM capability
You add in the various versions and on top of that conflicting naming conventions....and you end up with a mess.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby NRao » 02 Oct 2002 09:10

S-300 PMU

At best:

Designed for effective defence of vital facilities of the state and its armed forces against mass strikes by modem and future aircraft, strategic cruise missiles, tactical and theatre ballistic missiles, and other air attack weapons over a full range of altitudes and speeds in heavy ECM environments.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Harry Van » 02 Oct 2002 14:32

Guys , lot of people in the USA have said we must get the Russians to build an ABM system to protect the USA form rogue nations as USA is ten years behind in the ABM technology.If Arrow is better than the S-300 its not clear why Russian help is sought.

Russia has offered tch transfer to tehe USA and co-development also.But a section of USA IS OPPOSED TO IT AS IT WILL REVEAL TO THE ussians the weakness of the system and USA will be vulnerable to Russian attacks.

When will the forum members here (esp IITians)get over the fascination for american technology.Just because their women are beautiful dosent mean that their tech is also beautiful.India's real threat is the america loving NRI's.

Russians already have a nation wide ABM system ready and deployed.After START III reductions in nuke arsenal , Russians can fight and win a nuke war with the USA.

http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/pastanalysis/2002/0121.htm

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby NRao » 02 Oct 2002 19:12

More as a FYI, this article deals with the History of Russian ABM System and makes no mention of the 300 at all. The Russians seem to have some good technologies, but ever since the collapse of the USSR, they also seem to have slowly crumbled - not much advances in research, etc.

But, one thing seems to be fairly clear, the 300 cannot really be used as a ABM system.

Just because their (US) women are beautiful
Who says? :) .

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Vick » 02 Oct 2002 19:21

Quote: "When will the forum members here (esp IITians)get over the fascination for american technology.Just because their women are beautiful dosent mean that their tech is also beautiful.India's real threat is the america loving NRI's.

Complete and utter BS!

American technology in almost all military spheres is better than other countries, including Russia. At worst case, US mil tech is at par in certain areas.

I am not even going to touch the "India's real threat..." crap.

"Russians already have a nation wide ABM system ready and deployed.After START III reductions in nuke arsenal , Russians can fight and win a nuke war with the USA.

Yes, and the US is going to sit by and just complain to the UN while Russian nukes are dropping. Get real!

You have made some pretty ilinformed (to be polite) comments but your last post takes the cake.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Avid » 02 Oct 2002 19:26

Originally posted by harryvandeusan:

When will the forum members here (esp IITians)get over the fascination for american technology.
harry,
I have been reading the c#$p you have been posting for a while and disregarding it. The above statement is entirely out-of-line. :roll: :roll:

Arrow is primarily Israeli developed with american funding and it is not american per se. Americans have philosophical disagreement with the ABM approach of S-300 and Arrow. Have you seen any orders for Arrow from Pentagon??

Do your homework about these things before you go around spewing nonsensical chai-shop banter.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Austin » 02 Oct 2002 21:23

Some Info:-
The S-300 PMU1 has no ATBM capability , but are excellent Air-Defence(Anti-Aircraft, anti cruise missile) , But with S300PMU2 & PMU3 things have changed , But are good AD missile improved in anti-aircraft & anti-cruise missile and limited ATBM capibility .
But the S-300V and its new incarnation Anetey-2500 are designed from the ground as ATBM , Both these huge missile have excellent ATBM capability the Russians had tested them against BM sucessfully many times , Indian has gone for the later ie Anetey-2500, It has improved capability as compared to s-300v , Increased Speed , Better Guidance and More Lethal warhead , It is capable of Intercepting BM corresponding to a range of 2500 Km (Agni Class) .
But where the Russians lack is a Good Survellence & Firecontrol Radar , Thats where the Green Pine comes in , Drdo intention is to mate the Green Pine with A-2500 & Rajendra with Akash Total integration and in the Future if we may get the Arrow ,
But Than ATBM is not all about Missile & Radar it requires Real Time Survellence, Intelligence , Space Based Radar , and Much more all working in a Cohesive & integraded manner which India lacks and will not have for many years to Come , Only US & Russia have such capability

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Tim » 02 Oct 2002 21:42

Harryvandeusen,

You're way off base. Fighting and winning a nuclear war is a kind of a silly notion to begin with, but relying on an erratic regional ABM system (the main system only defends MOscow and adjacent bases) and a decrepit missile force (it's unclear how many Russian missiles would actually clear their silos) is kind of, well, suicidal.

Relying on the S-300, in any variant, to defend against incoming intercontinental warheads is pretty dangerous - the intercept envelope is very small (if not non-existent) for those kinds of speeds and angles. You'd better also have a tremendous C3I capability, which Russia doesn't possess (most of their early warning satellites have failed since the end of the Cold War). In short, I think you're overstating your case.

Austin,

I'd be very surprised if the latest versions of the S-300 have the capability to intercept an incoming IRBM. Maybe with a nuclear warhead on the interceptor, but even then your intercept envelope is pretty small.

Tim

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Rangudu » 02 Oct 2002 21:57

When will the forum members here (esp IITians) get over the fascination for american technology.Just because their women are beautiful dosent mean that their tech is also beautiful.India's real threat is the america loving NRI's.
This is arrant nonsense and an uncalled for generalization.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Nate » 02 Oct 2002 22:32

If it is only BRites (esp. IITians as you say)who are fascinated by American Technology why then would the rest of the world acknowledge (albeit grudgingly in many quarters) the US as the sole superpower today? Excluding very minor areas the US has unquestionable superiority in terms of technical capability in the military arena (all 3 forces). It would behoove us to take the good things and improve on them where we can.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Arun_S » 02 Oct 2002 22:42

For ABM role the interceptor rocket plays a secondary role. The primary role is Detection and Ranging. The range and effectiveness of ABM system is severly constrained by available Early Warning-detecting to cue the the long range radar to detect & verify the hostile missile & its trajactory. The limiting technological constarin is accurate target speed and position detection at long range. The faster the missile even small error in speed & position determination make the inteception propbability go down.

The S300 and its derivatives can only be effective against slow speed missiles(read short range ballistic missile) IRBM will depend on how much better their radar network is. As for ICBM, just forget it.

That bring into picture the thrid leg that ABM defense require: Space based Early Warning Missile event Detection that provides 24X7 coverage across the landmass & sea that may spring a missile launch.

As for India the key to IRBM capability would be long range radar network and Electronic Intellignece.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Michael » 02 Oct 2002 23:13

If either the S-300V or S-400 are effective ABM systems, then why is India sitting around waiting on the Arrow? Obviously the planners know something we don't. If the Russians already had a working ABM system do you think India would be willing to put up with the endless delays in getting the Arrow? If there was a Russian alternative to Arrow, do you think GOI would be willing to buy a system that's vulnerable to future American treachery (ie: sanctions, stopping spares, imbedded trojan-horse to disable/degrade the system, etc).

Obviously not. Seems pretty clear the Arrow is the only game in town. Which is unfortunate because India won't be allowed to buy it.

I still think the best bet is for India to jointly develop missile defense with Russia (perhaps S-400 as a starting point?). Work on an ABM system together, as is being done with Brahmos and JSFski.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby SureshP » 03 Oct 2002 01:18

There is no failsafe ABM , arrow or otherwise in the south asia context. If arrow managed to shoot down 1 missile in 20 it will have exceeded all its technical parameters. Sad but true.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby JTull » 03 Oct 2002 07:43

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
India is going to license produce 25 batteries of
S-300(latest mod) for area air defence.
Rudra Singha, do you know something we don't? Any public source to this information?

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby bhavani » 03 Oct 2002 11:24

I think India Should go for a combined system integrating the S-300 and Arrow missile systems with the green pine radar system. our indegenious AKASH can play the role of covering the Army units similar to the role SA-6 played. while TRISHUL gives the close range cover to the army units.
some of the members in the forum referred to S-400 to be similar to S-300 system. infact it is a completely differnt ssystem and is much powerful and has less reaction times and a better guidance and fire control radars when compared with the original S-300. S-400 is a better choice when compared to S-300. S-400 triumf has not yet come into deployment into russian forces

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Harry Van » 03 Oct 2002 15:17

The point we must realise is , just because a country has sophisticated weapons does not mean it is friendly to us.Past exampls of Britain and Mughals can be given for those who cannot understand.

Many Americans have testified to the effective ness of S-400 AND S-500 systems against ballistic missiles.

Even conceding the supeiority of Arrow system over the Russian variety , its better to have a reliable system that always works than merely posses technology superior but unreliable systems.

The best path would be for Indians to upgrade the Rus.ABM systems to higher standards using their superiority in electronics and software than go for western systems as suggested by Mike.

Also ist not clear why IITians who are flush with funds and brains are not offering the Indian GOV to build an ABM system for India.While its true that setting up a private industry for defence is very diff in Inida they could have gotten together and decided to set up such a company in Indonesia or Malaysia or otehr friendlies who perceive a common enemy in China.When this happens GOI will wake up and alow IITians to set up industry in India . Poor middle class pay taxes to subsidies education for IITians not to run down "eastern systems"(term many time used derogatorily in this forum) but to develop similar systems in India.I cannot understand that even after being at the receiving end of the west and the USA for so long , even after independance Indians keep clamouring for their systems openly saying that they are superior to "eastern systems" better than what teh russians have done , when USA has the advantages of all the immigrants in the world , and major breakthroughs in this century ahve come from Russians settled in USA.

Russians were the first to come up with the cryo engine(Tchsvislky --sorry for spell error) , helicopter (Igor Sikorsky) and the F-22 itself which makes Indians want to praise western systems si of russian origin.The theoritical work , the mathematical and computer program that would give the design of an aircraft to acquire capbility to deflect most of impinging radar waves was published by Russian scientific journal and later copied by americans to build teh stealth F-22.RUssian top down centralized apprach to weapon design ensured the stealth a/c suggestion was shot down as turning radar output would ensure a better return.

Do look up the maps.India is not in the middle of europe.We are also easterners and you are runnning us down as well.Not reffering to any particualr individual in this thread.

Tech is not everything.If tahts is so , USA wouldnt have pulled out of vietnam and we can , britain out of India who threw a few revolutionaries and MK Gandhi at a country that made the industrial revolution possible.

The sole weakness of Russians in elcetronics and software can be made up by Indians and this would make Indo-Rus.ABM system suprior as Rus. componet has the natural advantage of speed and reliabilty.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby davidn » 03 Oct 2002 15:38

Originally posted by harryvandeusan:

The best path would be for Indians to upgrade the Rus.ABM systems to higher standards using their superiority in electronics and software than go for western systems as suggested by Mike.
I hate to be a bit of a wet blanket here, but is this the same electronic superiority which put the Trishul's in the Brahmaputra frigates 2 years ago?

Realistically I don't think India is anywhere near having the tech know-how to create or upgrade an ABM or ATBM missile system, and it wont have this for at least 5 years, giving a very optimistic estimate.

So this ball game we probably need to buy the whole hot dog from outside the stadium. ( Been studying American culture eh? :D )

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Murugan » 03 Oct 2002 17:47

How the GreenPine Works in real battle mode. can anyone provide graphical explanation

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Harry Van » 03 Oct 2002 18:19


I hate to be a bit of a wet blanket here, but is this the same electronic superiority which put the Trishul's in the Brahmaputra frigates 2 years ago?



I don't mind frankly admitting at this point that I am totally anti-american and anti-western and I would hate to touch an Amerian weapons ystem even with a barge pole.I would rather India defended herself with primitiv eindigenous and russian hardware than use western toys.

My view of the world is similar to the russian and european view.A Multipolar world view with EU forming one pole and a strategic triangle conistsing of Russia , India and China checking american superiority.

The current indian FP is based solely on hatred for paksitan and belives we ought back US attack on iraq and other such adventures to get usa against pakistan.Plus it also involves improving relations with USA.I am against both.It belives highest goodness is being a friend of USA if not a client state.I dont agree.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Rudra » 03 Oct 2002 19:02

bansal, someone posted it from a defence mag
here last week. it will still be around in this
forum.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Harry Van » 03 Oct 2002 19:04

Myself ! Look at the first post in L&M discussion folder.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby geeth » 03 Oct 2002 19:24

>>>(it's unclear how many Russian missiles would actually clear their silos)

Tim, that was cheap shot I would say. FYI, the Russian ICBMs have grown beyond the silo based tech. Heard of Topol M? I am sure you have. Where are the MX stored?

As far as Pakis are concerned, Indians would try to knock off their ding-dongs in the boost phase itself. Not only S-300/400/V..etc, even the Sukohis will be deployed and they are capable of doing it unless the ding-dongs are fired from the Iranian border (now that they have lost the strategic depth after Mulla Omar eloped with Bin Laden's daugher!)..

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Rudra » 03 Oct 2002 19:59

one thing about russian rockets is - they may be
rough looking but they work. they also contain a
tech level not seen in other spheres of Ru life.

thats why lockheed has crawled in and license making
some engines designed in Ru.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Vick » 03 Oct 2002 20:09

Rocket tech is more than just fuel tech. Guidance is the name of the game in this day and age with emphasis on reduced collateral damage and enhanced ECM. In the guidance dept, it's the US, hands down. In the ABM role, the rocket tech is only a part of the required knowledge. The other parts are guidance and situational awareness. And in those two depts, the Russians are way behind.

Also, remember that the only AD/ATBM missile to have seen combat conditions is the Patriot. There is a wealth of info that can be gleened from combat conditions that can not be simulated in training. The Pac-3 missiles have the experiences learned from the first Gulf War built in.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Harry Van » 03 Oct 2002 20:53

The point is when vast oil and gas reserves were discovered in Bangladesh US wanted to have a mil base there.Strong protest from Indian GOV resulted in the project being called off.

Now suppose vast oil & gas reserves are found i pakistan suddenly.Or the rise of China and Russia makes pakistan extremely important for teh USA.They would justactivate a trojan horse and that would be the end of the Arrow.


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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Tim » 03 Oct 2002 22:28

Geeth,

I was responding to a post that said Russia was going to be able to fight and win a nuclear war with the US. To do that, they'll need more than Topol.

Russian Strategic forces are better funded than any other part of the Russian military, but they are still plagued with problems, according to both Russian and foreign observers. Some portion of the force is operable - but not all of it.

Harry Vandeusan,

The CDI website specifically notes that the SA-10 is roughly comparable to Patriot (not PAC-3), which is described as "...a SAM not optimized or designed for theater ballistic missile defense, but with some capability in that area." That's not necessarily a particularly useful asset for intercepting intercontinental missiles (the basis behind the assertion that Russia has a national ABM defense). It also dates the concerns about that ABM defense to the Reagan administration - when Soviet C3I systems operated at full capability and the military was fully funded.

Russian equipment isn't necessarily junk. But if you want to create a serious defense against intercontinental missiles, the SA-10 and variants are going to need an enormous amount of warning, and very rapid battle management capabilities, in order to intercept. Even for theater missiles, it will be a problem.

The most important part of the Arrow system isn't the missile itself, although it is very fast - it's the network of sensors to provide warning and targeting. The Soviets do not have anything comparable at this point.

Tim

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Tim » 03 Oct 2002 22:54

Oops. That last sentence should read "Russians", not "Soviets". I still do that sometimes when I'm talking about Russian hardware.

Tim

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby bhavani » 03 Oct 2002 23:07

After hearing to all this talk about the russian technology being crap and doubts whether russian ICBM will lift out of thier silos in a nuclear war.
primarily Russia does not rely on a ABM systems , infact its primary weapons are the nukes which act as a detterent to any agressive force.
DUring the 1980-85 region russians have infact acquired the upper hand in development of ICBM especially the heavy weights like the SS_18
infact when the SS-18 was introduced in late 80s the whole western military planners were taken aback. no body was prepared for its frightening accuracy and yields which was 30% greater than the SS-9 it replaced, and its accuracy compared with yield made any degree of hardening a waste. it gave USSR for the first time a first strike capabilty aganaist the land based nuclear component of NATO.SS-18 had upto three variants or mods. the mod 3 carried 10 MIRV. infact it had the capabilty to carry 30 MIRV and it was limited to Ten because of SALT treaty.SS-18 was followed by a series of frighteneing missiles which were better than what USA deployed. even the present russian missiles like topol-m are very good.

regarding all the talk about the russian missiles being not able to take off from silos is highly ridiculous as just 10-15 SS-18 or newer generation missiles will be enough to take out a number of US cities, as each of these missiles can be fitted with many nuclear war heads
so it would be utter foolishness to underestimate Russian nuclear capabilty

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby bhavani » 03 Oct 2002 23:20

The russian SA-10 may not be a n equivalent to PAtriot PAC-3 but the SA-12 aka s-400 triumf is a equivalent missile if not better when compared to the Patriotr PAc-3.the americans infact imported the SA-10 systems to evaluate its performance.
SA-10 system as a whole when combined with its fire control radar and acqusition radars may be inferior to AMerican patriot but the SA-10 missile deisgn itself is revolutionary design when compared to conventional designs. every body must have seen the video when an S-300 is launched from its verical launcher.the moment it is launched it just waits for a split second and the way with which it turns is simply awesome. if this missile had a better guidance and control system it would have been simply the best

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Michael » 03 Oct 2002 23:21

Originally posted by Tim:
The most important part of the Arrow system isn't the missile itself, although it is very fast - it's the network of sensors to provide warning and targeting. The Soviets do not have anything comparable at this point.
Which is why India is going for Isreali surveillance systems for its air-defense network instead of Russian ones.

Regarding the actual missiles, if the Arrow is not to be, a workable solution could be S-300's & S-400's served by the growing network of Isreali radars such as Green Pine and other shorter-ranged systems. Phalcon could also be integrated into this same air defense network (if India is ever allowed to buy it).

And by the way, I just noticed your earlier comment about using a nuclear-tipped ABM. This is something which I've commented on before but many people are not aware of. The Russians were (and possibly still are) very much into the idea of nuclear SAM's. They actually built some tacnuke-armed SAM's during the Cold War, and are rumored to have equipped many of their ABM's this way. It's a great solution to the problem of ABM's needing pinpoint accuracy which is often impossible in practice, even with advanced Western guidance.

If the US is going to screw India out of getting the Arrow, then nuclear-tipped S-400's might just be an excellent solution. Trouble is, can India build such warheads?

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Vick » 03 Oct 2002 23:29

The US also used nuclear tipped anti-aircraft missiles but they were AAMs meant for large Soviet bomber formations.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Rudra » 03 Oct 2002 23:58

galosh, gazelle.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby bhavani » 03 Oct 2002 23:59

the only nuclear armed SAM ever produced and deployed in numbers was the SA-5 gammon.It was fitted with a nuclear warhead of considerable yield. it was fitted with a nuclear warhead to compensate for its accuracy. it is the worlds largest SAm ever produced. it has been completely removed out of deployment.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby bhavani » 04 Oct 2002 00:08

GAlosh was an ABm system and it was placed all around moscow to protect it is guided by the hen house radars. it was also armed with nuclear warheads, but the galsoh systems was limited by the SALT treaty


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