Ground Based Radars of the IAF

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 20 May 2003 00:07

indra etc do have doppler mode.

John_Doe · Post by **John_Doe** » 20 May 2003 00:45

A question:

$250,000 per gun seems really expensive for an upgrade. Can't we buy new more modern guns for this price?

George J · Post by **George J** » 20 May 2003 00:55

Originally posted by John Doe.:
A question:

$250,000 per gun seems really expensive for an upgrade. Can't we buy new more modern guns for this price?

'expensive' is a relative word. Expensive as compared to what? if the cost per unit of the gun is $1 M then it can be argued that it is. If the cost of one unit is $10 M then quarter mil is nothing.

Also you are assuming that you will get a gun of equal or greater utility for about the same price of an upgrade. It may not be so. Futher even if you acquire a newer system the cost of inducting the said system with higher utility (and hence higher costs) may not be within the operational framework of the user.

IOW we have to wait for the CAG report on it.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 20 May 2003 01:10

Originally posted by George J:

Originally posted by John Doe.:
A question:

$250,000 per gun seems really expensive for an upgrade. Can't we buy new more modern guns for this price?
'expensive' is a relative word. Expensive as compared to what? if the cost per unit of the gun is $1 M then it can be argued that it is. If the cost of one unit is $10 M then quarter mil is nothing.

Also you are assuming that you will get a gun of equal or greater utility for about the same price of an upgrade. It may not be so. Futher even if you acquire a newer system the cost of inducting the said system with higher utility (and hence higher costs) may not be within the operational framework of the user.

IOW we have to wait for the CAG report on it.

Well your reply is more like an extention of the orignal question....what is the answer?

George J · Post by **George J** » 20 May 2003 01:18

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind. I did try to google for L/70 prices but came up with nothing. So rest assured if this deal goes thought in about a year or so the CAG will ding it and then we will have the answer.

What we should be asking is why IA dont like BEl/OFB tender who and what is a phoren upgrade?

From: http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/feb12/s7.asp

“The upgradation has been just completed. With this upgradation, we believe L-70 will have performance capability comparable to the latest, new generation guns,” he said. “If we want to buy new generation guns, they will cost many times more,” he said. “With this upgradation, we can have capability very close to a new generation gun at a fraction of the cost,” he said.

Mr Koshy declined to give the number of L-70 guns that New Delhi currently has. “My impression is that there are several hundreds. It’s a high number.” The upgradation cost has not been finalised, he said, but hastened to add that it would be a fraction of the cost of new generation gun if it’s acquired afresh.

The upgraded version of the L-70 gun would now be sent for user trials in the second half of this year and BEL expects to get order early next year, and delivery could be made a year from then, Mr Koshy said.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 20 May 2003 01:22

the BEL gun didnt come down to 0' elevation for
anti-IFV use, some lubricated bearings squealed
at 75C ambient temp deep inside jaisalmer and it
was found the protective casing around gun couldnt
resist a 125mm tank round fired from 10ft away.

Hence it failed 3 most vital points of the 768
point GSQR.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 20 May 2003 02:00

Rudra - that bad ?

However, it would be interesting to see if a single foreign vendor can do better or if BEL could rectify the shortcomings.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 20 May 2003 02:36

Sanjay,
You just witnessed a very powerful weapon being testfired.Rudra's wit.

John_Doe · Post by **John_Doe** » 20 May 2003 03:01

So what is the cost of a more up to date gun in the same class? Will the radars and other ancilliary systems be modified as well as the gun itself?

John_Doe · Post by **John_Doe** » 20 May 2003 03:02

Originally posted by nitin:
Sanjay,
You just witnessed a very powerful weapon being testfired.Rudra's wit.

If above said weapon has surface to air capability then we do not need the upgrades then?

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 20 May 2003 03:55

Originally posted by John Doe.:

Originally posted by nitin:
Sanjay,
You just witnessed a very powerful weapon being testfired.Rudra's wit.
If above said weapon has surface to air capability then we do not need the upgrades then?

The Chankian device in question is truly multi role.

ehsmang · Post by **ehsmang** » 20 May 2003 09:42

The ranges of high powered radars forming the backbone of the AD network seem to be in the range of 200 - 300 km (radius of the scanned circle is 200- 300 km, dia would be multiplied by 2) . This implies that to cover the entire Indo-Pak border which can be approximated to be around 2700 km ( IB) excluding the 720 km (LOC) we would need around 2700/250*2 = approx 6 radars.

When we say that there are gaps in radar covergae do we mean that we dont have even 5-6 radars of above mentioned capability. ( I am exlcuding LOC from this query). Or we mean that there are gaps in so far as low level coverage is concerned?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 20 May 2003 09:52

Reg high level radar coverage - There is one THD in Jodhpur, operated by 'The Scanners'. I believe 230SU in Amritsar is another major Radar unit - though I am not sure of the equipment with them. There could be another similar high power radar unit in SWAC say - Jamnagar or Bhuj. Any idea as to which radar at which station?

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 20 May 2003 18:41

Generally high and medium altitude coverage is very good. Low level coverage is where the gaps exist.

Jagan, there should be at least 1 THD in SWAC possibly at Bhuj or Jamnagar. Don't think it's at Bhuj. BADZs will have ST-68U radars as well. But these will be the lynchpin of the Base air defenses.

I just wish the IAF would make that THD in Bangalore fully ops with a data handling system.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 20 May 2003 19:07

While on the subject of ABM systems there have been many reports about the purchase of a few batteries of the S-300 system . I understand that the per unit cost of a S-300 battery is pretty high but was it ever considered to Lic. manufacture the system or to buy the rights to do so from Russia ? The costs can be adjusted by absorbing them over a number of years and if required by a mild increment in the budjet . The S-300 and S-400 is highly spoken of and won't the investment in them be worth it especially if they can be integrated with the Green Pine ?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 20 May 2003 21:10

Dont forget as per press one green pine is in JK. That should take care of all of LOC.

rgds,
fanne

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 20 May 2003 21:12

Jai, what you're asking is the biggest AD question currently out there.

I have no idea what harebrained or viable scheme is being planned.

So many reports and counter-reports and - as I have learnt - if you ask too many questions, they hide behind "classified info". They won't even confirm or deny reports of contract signing or of an MoU on BMD between India and Russia.

Who knows what's going on ? Does anybody here ?

Sree · Post by **Sree** » 20 May 2003 21:27

Guys, with the greatest of respect, are we not perhaps getting close to discussing matters that are not Open Source here?

I know none of you would intentionally wish to do so, so mebbe I'm just descending into Andy Grove mode ... but humour me, in that case, please, and say so!!

Thanks.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 20 May 2003 23:38

as per The Week article Reporter detected UAVs
at 200km in the Thar desert during parakram tests.

I hope it can be scaled up into a much larger
750km range system - a desi Green pine if you will.

http://www.drdo.org/labs/electronics/lrde/achieve.shtml

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 21 May 2003 01:50

Don't worry, nothing here is classified. What we are concerned about esp. regarding S-300 issue is whether the open source news is true. The Jane's report of 2001 was a complete falsehood.

We don't want to compromise anything regarding IAF SAM plans.

However, it is preposterous that the Akash is still so much an unknown in terms of its ATBM capability and even its anti-aircraft capability.

Say I'm a customer looking for a replacement for my Hawks or SA-6 systems.

I've an open mind and a requirement that the system has the ability to engage M-9 and M-11 missiles as well as aircraft and cruise missiles with a full EO back-up guidance system incl. IR homing and thermal imagers.

I go to the Yanks and they give me a lot of info on the Patriot. But says we can't sell it to you.

I go to the French and they try to sell me the Aster-30 land based version and offer a hefty bribe.

I go to the Russians and they give me full Sa-17 and Sa-11 details. They tell me max. engagement speed of targets ATBM capabilities etc.
I later find out that they are lying through their teeth about some things but still they give lots of details.

I go to India and they tell me:
" Range 27km, Ceiling 18km and we can't say any more. Go away before we charge you with spying."

That's more or less the reaction any serious person gets from DRDO and any Indian agency.

Who would you buy from ?

I'm not saying that India should release any secrets but the paucity of information hurts credibility esp. when BDL wants to export missiles.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 21 May 2003 02:37

Rudra,
That was the CAR not the Improved Reporter which is short range.

Sanjay,

The Akash is still in development hence the ambiguity about precise capabilities.Note the Rajendra got certified relatively recently and the Akash has had flawless tests-in entirety- even later.

Agree with you about unnecessary ham handed obfuscation on matters military,though.

Regards,
Nitin

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 21 May 2003 02:44

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
as per The Week article Reporter detected UAVs
at 200km in the Thar desert during parakram tests.

I hope it can be scaled up into a much larger
750km range system - a desi Green pine if you will.

http://www.drdo.org/labs/electronics/lrde/achieve.shtml

Large is the imp. bit.One difference,CAR is planar array mech scanned,uses multiple beams for elevation,whereas Green pine is phased.Apart from that,size does matter and the CAR is pretty compact in comparison.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 21 May 2003 02:49

Nitin, can you seriously see India releasing the kind of information the Russians did on the SA-17 ?

I appreciate the fact that it is under development but still too little info has been released in particularly wrt the max speed of targets that can be engaged.

Let me ask you this - at Aero India 2003, what was the IAF's reaction to the Akash performance ?

They seemed happy with the CAR and the Rajendra. The max. detection ceilings for those two is a matter of some confusion too. 18000m is too low since that is alleged to be the ceiling of the Akash itself. Would expect the radars to have a ceiling of say 22-25000m.

As an aside don't think I've ever said this but I have had some experiences in trying to get bids from Indian DPSUs for some contracts in Trinidad. Radars, rifles, respirators etc were sought.

BEL was downright lousy. OFB was friendly but provided too little information. HAL, on the other hand was fantastic - for Chetak, ALH and Do-228 info.

HAL didn't succeed because the US supplied 2 C-26 free. They couldn't beat that price !

In Latin America there's a huge market for Indian defence products esp. radars and missiles - ATGMs, AAMs and even SAMs. Only HAL has made a brief foray here to supply Jaguar spares to Ecuador.

That's one of the reason I'm so keen on more info being released. There is a market and India can grab it but it needs to convince buyers of the quality of its products.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 21 May 2003 03:27

Sanjay,
We suck in marketing and thats a fact.But then again we were Socialists,nice boys and exporting weapons was till recently a No no.

They seemed happy with the CAR and the Rajendra. The max. detection ceilings for those
two is a matter of some confusion too. 18000m is too low since that is alleged to be the
ceiling of the Akash itself. Would expect the radars to have a ceiling of say 22-25000m.

Is this recent?The AF bit about happy with CAR and Raj?
Would help in corroborating our data.

The Akash-what they did say was that complete performance was achieved only recently.Some snag or the other would bedevil earlier attempts.
Now after they validate the thing totally they can work on extending ATBM capability and tie it in with some (probably)technology development going on.

The WLR Rajendra transformation suggests that a similar approach is possible.

Regards,
Nitin

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 21 May 2003 03:41

Nitin, I was extrapolating from press and BR reports.

What did you hear at Aero India regarding Akash, CAR and Rajendra ?

I agree that time needs to be given but it is getting later.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 21 May 2003 03:50

Sanjay could you put up of those press reports/ notes about Rajendra?

DRDO notes Rajendra proven,CAR liked by AF(offered and used in P'kram, etc) but further improvements likely,no big deal to do them.Akash finally seems to have come good,trials wise.

Samir · Post by **Samir** » 21 May 2003 08:14

This is completely off-topic (so sue me), but a comment in a recent writeup on the exercises with the French really hit home: "The French know more about Gwalior Air Base than Indians".

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 21 May 2003 08:43

In what context are they talking about ?
Can you share a link or provide the article.. curious.

Sree · Post by **Sree** » 21 May 2003 12:11

Originally posted by Sanjay:
Don't worry, nothing here is classified. ...

However, it is preposterous that the Akash is still so much an unknown ...

I go to India and they tell me:
" Range 27km, Ceiling 18km and we can't say any more. Go away before we charge you with spying."

...

Sanjay, thanks for the reassurance.

Love your characterisation of the different arms exporters' strategic selling techniques, btw

... and agree entirely with your and Nitin's comments on the subject. I've had similar experiences in similar situations.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 21 May 2003 18:51

Nitin,
Don't have much at all. Sorry.
Just impressions more than anything.

Samir, the French were instrumental in helping the IAF establish Gwalior.

The comment is very glib. What it is probably meant to express is surprise at the extent of the knowledge the French have about the facilities there.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 21 May 2003 20:57

Kapils picture of the HHNN radar - HHNN derives from 'Haan Haan - Nah Nah' from the movement of the two dishes on the radar unit.

No idea as to the model and type - I am only guessing that it is used by the ATC to judge the approach patern of the incoming aircraft (correct range - altitude during approach).

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/HHNN.jpg

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 21 May 2003 21:06

It is possibly a precision approach radar of French design.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 21 May 2003 21:29

from its emplacement looks capable of ground
a/c movement monitoring too. is it in gwalior ?

from the SOTE video gwalior sure looks a notch
above the rest - nice HAS with angled driveways
leading to taxiway..M2k surging out on demand.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 21 May 2003 22:11

GD

its from Lohegaon - Pune.

-Jagan

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 22 May 2003 02:13

Originally posted by Sanjay:
It is possibly a precision approach radar of French design.

Right you are ,but the radar is iirc manufactured by HAL .Dont know whether it is of French origin or not.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 22 May 2003 02:24

Originally posted by nitin:

Originally posted by Sanjay:
It is possibly a precision approach radar of French design.
Right you are ,but the radar is iirc manufactured by HAL .Dont know whether it is of French origin or not.

HAL ? They manufacture radar's as well ?

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 22 May 2003 02:25

Originally posted by Sanjay:
Nitin,
Don't have much at all. Sorry.
Just impressions more than anything.

Samir, the French were instrumental in helping the IAF establish Gwalior.

The comment is very glib. What it is probably meant to express is surprise at the extent of the knowledge the French have about the facilities there.

Samir,I think was referring to the fact that ordinary indians get to see little,but the "visitors" get red carpet treatment

, in a ref to what we were discussing about indian establishment and their (over)secrecy in matters military.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 22 May 2003 02:28

Originally posted by cy_baru:

Originally posted by nitin:
Right you are ,but the radar is iirc manufactured by HAL .Dont know whether it is of French origin or not.
HAL ? They manufacture radar's as well ?

Yeah,but these "simple" types.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 22 May 2003 23:34

Admins, please take a note. I think people are getting too specific in reporting locations of air-defense systems.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 22 May 2003 23:46

suffice it to say I know of other locations around
mumbai and so do many readers. the place is bristling with SAMs and radars which isnt a huge
surprise - #1 navy port, #1 atomic center, #1 trade center, #major railway hub, #1 commercial port.

its also well known Mig21s have been tested from
Sahar and pilots flew around familiarizing
themselves with landscape of city.

Pune is 20 mins away without afterburner.