The physics, politics and myths of fission

shiv
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Post by shiv »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Can I point out the advantage of a multiple warhead vehicle. Say with 12-15 warheads each.

About 20 such vehicles would be enough for any eventuality.

Also a few tactical nukes for Mad Hatter next door.

I've heard about this Thorium thing forever. But seriously a lot of very smart people tried to make it work in the US and Russia. Never got a productive system going and got shut down in the 50's & 60's. Why do our scientists thing they have this thing crack. They havn't go a working system after all.
There are two separate issues here.

Indians - as in people who live in India - mostly outside the big cities need energy for development.

The separate issue that is being imposed on this energy requirement issue is the "when will mine get as big as yours" issue of a nuclear arsenal.

The minute penis envy comes into any debate - all debate then veers around to whose is bigger and the other question, that of energy need for development, does not get discussed at all.

The Russian and Americans are superduperpowers and clever folks and could not get Thorium power. Indians are not superpowers and are relative morons - but we need energy like anyone else. We don't have Uranium and you say the Thorium route is no good. What do we gain by making a hajaar atom bums? I don't see the point. Am I stupid and unable to see the logic of substituting a requirement of electric power with MIRVs?

Wassa matter folks?
Raju

Post by Raju »

Indians - as in people who live in India - mostly outside the big cities need energy for development.
I was listening to a Karan Thapar interview on UPA's performance in 2006 last night and a panelist mentioned that the nuclear deal is not as much about Energy....the civilian energy aspect is just a convenient facade for closer political & business relations between US and India. The actual impact on India's total power generation would be miniscule or marginal.

And ofcourse the fact that a lot of businessmen will make pots of money.

What do we gain by making a hajaar atom bums? I don't see the point. Am I stupid and unable to see the logic of substituting a requirement of electric power with MIRVs?
the point is that we just have the 'maal' but there are probably not even a dozen finished & deliverable nuclear weapons in India's arsenal as of now. And that is an extremely sorry state of affairs.

Our leadership is flawed across party lines, they are peaceniks and have slept over the strategic option completely and thoroughly. We are strategically not in a comfortable position when a country like TSP exercises the option of bombing passenger trains to make some point or the other. And our leaders have no 'comeback', they have no strategic weapons to counter that.
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Post by shiv »

rocky wrote:When you have the ability and means to wipe out planet earth many times over, you attain super-powerdom. Otherwise you are just a nuke power.
There is more than one type of superpower. The power that claims superpower status on the number of nukes is in my view the most useless route to superpowerdom.

Britain (the superpower of yesteryear) and the US had technological and industrial power to equip their militaries. So did Japan and Germany. Even the Soviet Union did well in science and is still ahead of India.

China is the type of superpower that you speak of - initially with huge armies and huge arsenals - but little technical advancement to show for its nominal superpower status.

I do not want to see India as this type of superpower. I want to see India as a superpower in which 90% of 1 billion plus people are literate, have clean water to drink and have houses and toilets and healthcare facilities. They should not need to gather wood for cooking and should be able to plug a stove into a wall outlet for that. Cold North Indian winters should not create smog from evening fires - but should be powered by clean fuels of some sort. There should be power for water filters or desalination where required and darker areas need to be lit up.

I will quote P.Chidambaram in his post Pokhran lecture at IISc - he said "India will become a developed nation when the lifestyle in an Indian village becomes comparable to that in an Indian city"

We still have 600 million people in the villages and 700 million Indians shit and piss out in the open. There are no toilets or sewage disposal facilities

I think we tend to forget this sort of reality when we speak of 1000 or 2000 or more warheads and "superpowerdom"

In its current state 1000 nuke warheads will make India a crapper-power. Please don't forget how much more of India needs to change before we can even dream of being a serious power leave alone a superpower. I believe our politicians know this better than many of us on here.
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Post by kgoan »

. . .the nuclear deal is not as much about Energy....the civilian energy aspect is just a convenient facade for closer political & business relations between US and India. The actual impact on India's total power generation would be miniscule or marginal.

The first part is true. The second part maybe largely accurate depending on the international insurance and re-insurrance agreements for power reactors and; the legal modalities of the various agreements we sign.

Whether folks, (including BRs Lone Ranger), like it or not, the essence of this deal is a proto-alliance with the US.

For that to occur, we and they both need to know we can trust each other. And the best way to build trust is to base it on one of the core issues of mis-trust that has long dogged Indo-US relations.

The issue of trust is a central one in this agreement.

Folks here are looking at the wrong stuff when looking at what we may end up paying for this.

The real key to how well we play this game is in two absolutely crucial areas: financial agreements that expose the Rupee to a greater degre of risk to areas outside the control of Delhi and Bombay and; the the types of patent agreements and Intellectual Property rights we're forced to sign away.

The T&E forum will be a far more important place to understand the long term implications of this deal than this thread or, for that matter, this forum or the Guns & Bombs forum.
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Post by Alok_N »

kgoan wrote:Whether folks, (including BRs Lone Ranger), like it or not, the essence of this deal is a proto-alliance with the US.
glad you said it ... if folks in uncleland say it, they come under MUTU rocket attack ... :)
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Post by kgoan »

Funny thing, recently I've spent a fair amount of time interacting with variour babu types, mainly in Bollywood land, virtually all of whom repeat what Shiv says above almost incessantly.

In fact one of them said almost the same thing Shiv just did: He wants to be around to see the day when on an early morning train ride to the City, he doesn't see people crapping along the tracks.

You know folks, if we put it to the vote among our aam janata, and gave them the choice: A poor but anti-US India or a chamcha-US India as rich as Japan, what do you think they'd choose?
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Post by Vijay J »

If the price is right, everything is for sale.

We don't know what the Americans want to buy. If they would tell us negotiations could begin.

If they respect our rules when accessing what we have, we will respect their rules. You try to repeat what the British did, you will end up being treated like the British.

For example, don't come to India and swipe our biodiversity and we will respect your IPR. Behave like a civilized people and you will be treated in a civil fashion attempt any of the British style barbarity and you will be treated like animals.

Hopefully the Americans have learnt the greatest lesson that history could have taught them? the same one that the British learned? i.e. only an Indian can rule India?

Didn't BRs Lone Ranger try to tell us how America doesn't need our troops in Iraq. I wonder if the Lone Ranger spent Christmas looking for the 200,000 additional American troops to go down there right now?

Once again, Indians will welcome an American Babur with open arms, but he will leave for Samarkand as an Indian with an Indian army.

Do people understand what I am saying?
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Post by Abhijit »

Funny thing, recently I've spent a fair amount of time interacting with variour babu types, mainly in Bollywood land, virtually all of whom repeat what Shiv says above almost incessantly.
hallelujah, this is like Gabbar saying that he wants to live to see the day when ramgarh ke waasi live without the fear of dacoits. Who the hell gets paid for the job of making it happen ?
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Post by S.Valkan »

kgoan wrote:You know folks, if we put it to the vote among our aam janata, and gave them the choice: A poor but anti-US India or a chamcha-US India as rich as Japan, what do you think they'd choose?
The problem is that "aam-janta" has no clue how to become as rich as Japan.

Various concerned netas are always by their side, informing them that strikes, hartals, rail/rasta-rokos, black flags, anti-US slogans and voting for the aforementioned netas, their henchmen, and their cadre will get them to the promised land.

And, then, there are the H&D folks as well.

Not that easy to make a clean break with the past.
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Post by Alok_N »

ok, who is this Lone Ranger dude?

Abhijeet,

its hard to blame lack of toilets on babus ... this problem needs to be attacked on a war footing ... a lot of moolah needs to be mobilized ...

my most incongruous image from my last trip to India:
a dude in Lucknow talking on a shiny cell phone while crapping next to the Gomti river
:shock:
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Post by S.Valkan »

Alok_N wrote:a lot of moolah needs to be mobilized ...
That's always the perennial problem.

But, it is not just a question of installing a few toilets and septic systems to accompany them.

It is also ensuring proper supply of water to use the coriolis force to consign the stinky puddle at the base of that ceramic bowl to its septic grave, when you yank the flush.

And, don't forget that such a system also calls for the proper supply of electricity to get the water from the underground pipes to the overhead tanks.

Comes back full circle to the problem of energy sourcing.
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Post by kgoan »

ok, who is this Lone Ranger dude

:eek:

Here poor ol' TSJ spends all his time taking on the Injuns and yer don' even know his name? Man, this just proves all Injuns, just like the ones who want meteorites to hit the US, suck big time.

Old joke:

The Lone Ranger and Tonto are surrounded by Injuns and fast running out of bullets. TLR fires his last bullet and then turns around and says to Tonto: "Looks like we're in for it this time pardner". To which Tonto replies: "whadya mean "we" white man"?

See, TSJ prolly thinks that's a real story which actually happened. So naturally the dudes real careful 'bout us.

Don't blame him. How can we blame the poor dude . . . Recall that the heroic Lone Ranger is so-called even though he is always accompanied by Tonto the Injun . . .
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Post by Alok_N »

kgoan wrote: Recall that the heroic Lone Ranger is so-called even though he is always accompanied by Tonto the Injun . . .
sort of like how Sir Hillary climbed Everest and some non-Sir Sherpa dude just followed along carrying his load for him ... :lol:
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Post by Gerard »

ability and means to wipe out planet earth many times over
To have a superpower type arsenal, you need an immense military-industrial complex, vast scientific and engineering capability and a massive economy to pay for it all.

People throw about the term superpower quite casually.. for example describing China as one when it is not even a great power..

There are various levels of power-dom
regional powers - great powers - super powers - hyper powers

from wikipedia
A Great power is a nation or state that, through its great economic, political and military strength, is able to exert power over world diplomacy. Its opinions are strongly taken into account by other nations before taking diplomatic or military action. Characteristically, they have the ability to intervene militarily almost anywhere, and they also have soft, cultural power, often in the form of economic investment in less developed portions of the world.
The military component is a traditional one for great powerdom - the ability to perform gunboat diplomacy.
A great power must be able to project force in most regions of the world. They must be able to put boots on the grounds.

Could China for instance pacify a small caribbean island? Somalia?
Does it have a bluewater navy? Significant long range offensive amphibious capability? Does it have even one aircraft carrier?
Does it have long range tanker aircraft? Awacs? How many?
Enough to dominate the local battle space?
Did it build these on its own or did it just buy a few from someone else?
This is important - great powers have the ability to manufacture their power projection equipment. Buying them just doesn't cut it.
Last edited by Gerard on 30 Dec 2006 03:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by S.Valkan »

Gerard wrote:People throw about the term superpower quite casually.. for example describing China as one when it is not even a great power.
True.

But, to the best of my knowledge, China is referred to as an 'emerging' superpower in academic circles.

However, UK and France are still referred to as 'great' powers, when they are effectively no more than regional powers.
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Post by Gerard »

'emerging' superpower
As irritating a term as 'regional superpower'

A great power can emerge as a superpower..

However a nation that is not one .. one that does not possess global power projection capability, one that cannot exert financial stress on even a small island, one that has zero soft power.. cannot be 'emerging' as a superpower.
A toddler that cannot yet walk is not emerging as a runner in the class of Carl Lewis.
when they are effectively no more than regional powers.
But they still retain their network of bases and territory througout the world that allows them to project power. They still build the aircraft carriers and long range aircraft. They still intervene around the world.
Their banks and companies still have global financial clout.

They may be fading but they are a bit more than regional players...
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Post by Vijay J »

India does not want to be a super power or frighteningly dangerous international misfit!

We want to run our large economy with a minimal environmental footprint at pace where the capital generated can cover any social overheads. That is all.

That is the grand summary of our national security needs.

Go to any babu and over a few tobacco laced paans and a few glasses of toddy, he will tell you the exact same thing in 25 languages and 8000 dialects!

Go to Delhi and talk to someone who knows a thing or two and they will tell you the same thing in plain english.

- leave us alone, we don't want to be a part of your international gang.

- it you stop trying to rig the international trade and we will participate in it.

- don't try to screw us and we won't try to screw you.
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Post by kgoan »

- leave us alone, we don't want to be a part of your international gang.

Vijay:

They won't.

They care only about capabilities, not intentions. Nothing you say will change that. Because they've spent upteen decades, generations in fact, mouthing their sanctimonious high blown rhetoric while doing the other.

The thief shouting "stop thief". And if you're going to be "thick as thieves" you'd better be a thief as well. Otherwise you'll get your throat cut.

That's the way the cookie crumbles. We have to learn to deal with it.
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Post by rocky »

kgoan wrote:They care only about capabilities, not intentions. Nothing you say will change that. Because they've spent upteen decades, generations in fact, mouthing their sanctimonious high blown rhetoric while doing the other.

The thief shouting "stop thief". And if you're going to be "thick as thieves" you'd better be a thief as well. Otherwise you'll get your throat cut.

That's the way the cookie crumbles. We have to learn to deal with it.
I reccomend this for post of the year - you couldn't have said it better!
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Post by Vijay J »

I agree, the problem is that their capabilities paint them out to be far far worse than the Nazis.

Everyone starts to judge on capability instead of intention and their World Order will cease to exist.

That is why I ask them to pay us not to think like they do.

There is no such thing as a free lunch after all?

This is an economy quite literally out of gas so like the reasonable people we are we will accept payment in nuclear fuel.

They can feel free to spend all their valuable energy resources on making useless weapons they will never actually be able to use.
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Post by g.sarkar »

Arun_S wrote:My Afghan double agent just passed this message for you.
Bade mian,
Aadaab Arz Hai.
Why such disdain of the Arabic land mass? As if we do not exist. At least repay with interest for all the nuisance & pain? Pls set aside a reservation quota of 100 for the Naacheez;

Aur zanaab kam se kam bada Zalzala to hona hee chahiye. Hamain badaa wala chahiya, kam se kam Paki par jo istamal kiya us-se badaa; Nahin to to kya izzat reah jayegee, jub duniya ki taareekh likhee jayegi.
-Abu-bakr Wahaab-el musharraf Institute.
Abu-Mian, Aap bade "Wo" hain! hukm sar-ankho par.
But seriously, Sivji, this has been excellent thread, thanks for clearing up many doubts regarding the bum. I think most of our mistrust in this forum regarding the Indo-US agreement is our mistrust of the Babus and the leadership. There is just one thing that bothers me, the low number of tests. If the news is correct, Indian scientists cancelled one or more test, saying that they were no longer needed. Why so few tests, while everyone of the Nukleer powers tested many many more. I remember even some Russian scientists saying that India will need more test to prove the boosted device. Could someone comment on this?
Jay Ramjiki,
Gautam
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Post by shiv »

Believe it or not there is plenty of moolah in India. Moolah is less of a problem than time and energy.

India is going to help suck the world oil market dry faster than people imagined. People are buying vehicles, washing machines, TVs and motors for power tools, pumps and kitchen equipment at a scorching pace. Serious money is being made in India - and people are saying we don't give a fck about the price - give us energy.

One thing about having representation of "all sections" in government/bureaucracy is that the pre-teen/teenage kids of all these people wear jeans, carry cell phones, ride motorbikes, and none of them wants to be left out of the "machine" revolution overtaking India. It's not as though anyone seriously sheds tears for adivasis without power. It's more personal than that. For the babu it's his son and daughter right here who want power for their computer and his wife who howls that there is no power for the 2.5 Lakh jacuzzi/shower installed in their new home built from bribes or for the garish, mindlessly mantra-chanting, LED illuminated, gold plated, Rs 80,000 picture of Ganesha in her pooja room

Rich contractors are building things at a furious pace - there is construction going on in India at an un-friggin-believable rate. You have to live here to see it. And every one of these is being done by people with deep pockets and they are howling for power for borewells, for welding, for power tools tools to cut and polish tiles and granite, to cut wood and light up night in a 24x7 workday. And power for cement plants. Anyone know how much cement is being used in India?

Nobody is even thinking about bums, except when they need to crap. Looking at references to "thousands of atom bombs" gives me the sense that I am in a crowd of people who exist in some alternate reality completely disconnected from where I am.
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Post by Bade »

Nobody is even thinking about bums, except when they need to crap. Looking at references to "thousands of atom bombs" gives me the sense that I am in a crowd of people who exist in some alternate reality completely disconnected from where I am.
Isnt that obvious shivji. Mosty NRIs onlee here on BRF. Look at the pakistan threads and one can tell. People down south in india where i visit once a year could care less of bakistan. I tried an experiment and gave some friends links and pics and even humor posted here and it did not move them. :twisted:
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Post by Gerard »

and people are saying we don't give a fck about the price - give us energy.
Yet Medka Patkar and Arundhati Roy are still tolerated, even celebrated, rather then soundly thrashed and chased out of town...
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Post by NRao »

Civilian nuclear efforts will only move the pollution problem somewhere else. Pollution will rear its head in a different form.

Electrification of rural areas will also pose other environmental problems.

BTW, rich-Japan is facing a under population problem - a real bad one at that.

It looks like this deal will provide some immediate relief - next 20-50 years - at best.
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Post by Shwetank »

I tried an experiment and gave some friends links and pics and even humor posted here and it did not move them.
exactly same can be said about NRIs or people from other parts as well.
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Post by Alok_N »

jingo bhai log,

I am truly disappointed ...

just because an Admin dude said that energy needs supercede "grass eating jingo needs", you let him off the hook?

come now, if some poor old NRI had said it, the MUTU raakets would be launched without even referring to the GPS coordinates ...

come forth brave soldiers, let's at least have some semblance of a good jingo feast ... :shock:

it is no fun at all to see this topic get devaluated from prime importance to "ho hum" ...

we need hazaar bums ... we need to show uncle who is boss ... we need to hold up our heads with newkiller dignity ... we need to tell uncle to eff off ... where art thou, jingos?
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Post by Alok_N »

through thirty effing threads I dealt with grief for claiming that energy security is superior to any other form of security ...

come on folks, let Shiv have at least one percent of that same grief ... :)
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Post by Arun_S »

g.sarkar wrote:There is just one thing that bothers me, the low number of tests. If the news is correct, Indian scientists cancelled one or more test, saying that they were no longer needed. Why so few tests, while everyone of the Nukleer powers tested many many more. I remember even some Russian scientists saying that India will need more test to prove the boosted device. Could someone comment on this?
Please read more before asking this kind of uninformed questions, but this question seems to be ritual that repeats every 10 months or so. So let me do the honors for the 'Nth' time:
1. Pls do a litte more study or Googling.

To start with pls see Dr Chidambram's presentation:
THE MAY 1998 POKHRAN TESTS: Scientific Aspects, by R. Chidambaram. http://www.saag.org/papers5/paper451.html

See the graph showing the co-relation between increasing in computing power and the numbers of nuclear tests.

2. Nuke testing was the only option available when the physics and computing was unable to converge in terms of understanding all mechanics that go into fission, boosting and radiation driven fusion implosion. Hence more prevalent when its recipe was black-art.

As can be see in the Venn-diagram of Dr Chidambram (above article) that only USA and Indian nuclear weapon program is totally independent, not predicated on nuclear proliferation (from a prior Nuclear state) that is the base and hall mark of all other nuclear states (viz. Russia, UK, French, Israel, China, Pakistan & North Korea). And the Indian design is of 1995 circa, built at a time when fundamental science had matured by many order compared to 1860, 1970, or 80 or even 1990. Not to mention explosive growth in
1. Computer MEGAFLOP and precision (floating single and double) {the Cray-MP/XMP Carter embargoed against India is less powerful than my home PC 5 years ago. Hope one can see how barrier to know how has been lowered, to ordinary mullah’s, terrorists and Non-democratic rough nations}
2. Finite element modeling tools and optimization software
3. High energy experimental physics data in open
4. Accurate & well controlled High energy experimental lab setup to acquire and validate physical parameter/constants.

Thus Indian TN weapons were designed from first principle and thoroughly grounded in experimentally validated physical parameters.

The Pokhran-II tests were so close to predicted performance that even with preliminary sensor data from close in sensors the scientists decided not to explode the 6th Low Yield experimental device on the second round.

3. Fission physics and Fission weapon is so well known that it is no more an area of fundamental investigation/validation by P5 and of late all P5 tests were not focused on fission stage, all of them have focused on refining their low yield Fusion secondary that has been most changing to model in software in the 80’s and early 90’s phase of nuke development & testing. (tertiary validation/testing has been rarely done).

4. Fission optimization, testing and verification is now done using passive U238 core, using modern electronic instrumentation to validate the software code. This is where military engineers need to inspect (as observers) to gain confidence on experimental and theoretical validation of mil weapon.

5. The French will arm their Sub launched M51 ICBM with a new Thermo-nuke TNO, and this TNO will for the time be put to service without a full scale testing. One may ask why?and why will be the French military agree to such untested deterrent weapon, or why will French enemies will be deterred by an untested TNO?

Aviation Week & Space Technology
M51 Gives France More Flexible Deterrent To Meet Changing Threats
By Michael A. Taverna
10/22/2006 10:48:45 PM
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/c ... 2306p1.xml
The M51 also reflects France's decision to rely henceforth on simulation, rather than atmospheric testing, to verify the reliability and safety of the country's nuclear arms. The missile will be fitted initially with miniaturized TN75 warheads that equip the M45--and benefit from the last round of atmospheric tests of that warhead in 1995. But it will eventually carry an all-new warhead, dubbed TNO, that will be developed using a giant simulator facility, the Megajoule Laser, which is under construction near Bordeaux in the heart of the country's nuclear complex (AW&ST July 17, p. 122).
Rumor has it that 3 years ago GOI was going to do another round this time full yield nuke test to cut short the western teasing /psy-op of “Oh Indian weapons tested didn’t work and questioning the yield/efficacy of Shakti-1 ThermoNuke weaponâ€
Last edited by Arun_S on 30 Dec 2006 13:28, edited 1 time in total.
Raju

Post by Raju »

The political class always dislikes empowered people. This cuts across all forms of governance. They prefer if they have to deal only with a tiny minority of decision makers and Nbjprie elite. India's natural push towards more democracy & transparency in decision making stands out in stark contrast to the overwhelming former trend in the ruling circles.

That and not lack of Nuclear power plants is the real reason for India's energy scarcity.

As for nookulear bums, we never had more than a handful of deliverable ones anyways. We have been talking of having the 'maal' for the past 3 decades onlee.

So Shiv has falled into this 'give a packet of rice to poor man onlee...' syndrome...which might be valid in itself but such examples can not be extrapolated to a geo-strategic scenario where one has to look at the motivations of the one who offers that packet of rice. And to ensure that the packet has just rice only and not something else disguised as rice.
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

IMHO if the deal came with a choice of Energy Security or Cheap Energy the proletariat will pick the later every time.

The problem is never that we don't have energy but that we don't have CHEAP energy. The cost to pump out oil from the ground is so unfrickably low that energy security will always be a chimera. Look at the countries that DO have energy security, Middle East Poop-ablic's, latin despots, Russia and Canada. I don't see where this energy security paid off.

Look at Japan or Korea or the US, lack of energy security has not hobbled them.

Super powers are proclaimed so when a country has accomplishments that the rest of the world wants and needs to emulate. We were a super power when we had spices, textiles, gems and a peaceful society that others coveted. Note that we were not rich then. The modern standards are different. I'll let others speculate on what they are, sadly BUM's and their abilities will figure into that calculation.
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Post by Alok_N »

equations are changing ... don't look at the past ... energy crisis is in the future ...

http://www.economist.com/daily/news/dis ... op_story=1
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Post by John Snow »

Shiv Guru>> Unkil has been detered by 3 balls of Kim Dong and 1.5 balls of Mushy.

SO unkil does value the balls with fly in other words

one ICBM and a two balls in the open shirt wallh is enough to make unkil put a thinking cap, other wise this mad rush by Mullahs in Iran or Ding Dongs in NoKo being supplied by Lizard?
ShauryaT
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Post by ShauryaT »

Arun_S: Is it your submission that India can deploy an MIRV capable miniaturised warhead without further tests? My understanding is even China has undertaken such miniaturized warhead tests between 93-96 for the DF 31. If true, then no one has been able to do this so far - without any prior experience. (The french example is laudable but still based on an older warhead). What is the picture for India here?
Arun_S
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Post by Arun_S »

ShauryaT wrote:Arun_S: Is it your submission that India can deploy an MIRV capable miniaturised warhead without further tests?
What is your basis to say that Indian weapons lack MIRV capable miniaturization? A little more investigation and one would know what is the shape/size of Indian TN. For the aam janata I wrote this article for next issue of IDR.

As for new weapons design from software code only:
Pok-II has tested enough variants that we have not only have verified physical construction but also its physics parameters that allow robust interface to boosting and staged fusion design for reliable systems. It is my personal belief that the data for Pok-II, BARC-labs and cold test will yield new designs (E.g. Enhanced radiation weapons/neutron bomba, or even smaller form-factor staged TN weapon) that are deployable weapons that military will be confident of. But the way Indian military is organize, IMHO it can't do a mass nuclear weapons deployment of say 1000 weapons or new software designed weapons (because it lacks the techno-scientific and doctrinal infrastructure) Thus the current modal only supports weapons that have been tested in a deterrent posture. And Pok-II has provided enough types of weapons that will meet the need of current world technology, and will need change when the next technological quantum jump takes place in about 30-50 years.
My understanding is even China has undertaken such miniaturized warhead tests between 93-96 for the DF 31.
What makes China such a golden standard? except ignorance. Please try to do some search to get facts before falling down to this Dhimmi trait. And yes Shakti-I has the form factor fitting MIRV. Its outer diameter is ~50cm just right for MIRV.
Arun_S
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Post by Arun_S »

These are nominal shape/size of Indian new-kleer wheapons:

Image
shiv
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Post by shiv »

John Snow wrote:Shiv Guru>> Unkil has been detered by 3 balls of Kim Dong and 1.5 balls of Mushy.

SO unkil does value the balls with fly in other words

one ICBM and a two balls in the open shirt wallh is enough to make unkil put a thinking cap, other wise this mad rush by Mullahs in Iran or Ding Dongs in NoKo being supplied by Lizard?
Indeed the US does not think that it needs 1000 weapons to be deterred. One terrorist aatmi bum is enough for the US to sit up and take note. It is overpopulated terrorist nations that need more nukes to make them listen.

If we step into dreamland for a minute and imagine that India can have a credible nuclear deterrent with about 300 to 500 warheads and capable delivery systems the next step from there would be to see what else "power and influence" or consists of.

Development and making people so wealthy that the rest of the world will be slobbering at our feet is a goal that should not be dismissed.

I see an elitist viewpoint here that is remarkably similar to that of the PakRAPE/Army viewpoint. There is a degree of contempt at the idea that "aam aadmi" requires development, or that aam aadmi knows what is good for him. What is stated to be good is what we the elite, who already have wealth and influence know - and we are saying more arms - so we cannot be touched by any power in the universe. And balls to the naked laborers of India. Talking about them amounts to being sympathetic to leftists, or being hoodwinked by politicians. This is a deeply flawed a view that shows Pakarmy-like ignorance of reality of "Indians". Such ignorance is OK but "democracy" demands that 60 or 70% of Indians who live well below the global mean have a right to demand that their living standrads be raised - so they get clean water and toilets at the very least. Why should talk of development be instantly sidelined by fears of "Others are trying to screw us - so get the nuclear weapons ready first! Everything else is secondary"

The Paki army and RAPE operate EXACTLY in this manner- using "Looming external threats" to keep themselves and their group supremely powerful and protected while being oblivious or contemptuous of the real state of development of most Packees. BRF folks are echoing those elite thought processes. The Indian RAPE in full flow.
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Totally get the bread and butter issue. It was my opinion when those nuclear test were made.

Yet I have yet to meet a aam janta however who does not think it was a great thing. In fact it was the elites like my father who lit candles and moaned about poverty and water problems.

At my wifes place in Chattisgarh one neigbhor put it to me this way. You never know your spine till you test it. (his metaphor used body parts but I'll leave that out). Everyone in the world knew we were gonna, but still we did it damned the consequences. And guews what nothing happened. The Aam janta do carry some of that warmth around with them. And they do walk a fraction taller.

Another thing is that we have been rich and prosperous before in history. Usually others came in and took it away or messed with us. Does it not make sense to carry a big stick this time around. Already the jihadi's make blood thirsty demands as we get wealthier.
Alok_N
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Post by Alok_N »

from the packee thread:
The US moved the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise into the Bay of Bengal but this did not deter Indira Gandhi from moving ahead with her war plans to invade Dhaka. According to an interview given many years later by General Sam Maneckshaw, who was then the Indian army chief, Indira Gandhi dismissed the American threat as irrelevant, saying everyone would be dead if Delhi was nuked.
the lady had 239 balls without a nuke ...
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Alok_N wrote:from the packee thread:
The US moved the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise into the Bay of Bengal but this did not deter Indira Gandhi from moving ahead with her war plans to invade Dhaka. According to an interview given many years later by General Sam Maneckshaw, who was then the Indian army chief, Indira Gandhi dismissed the American threat as irrelevant, saying everyone would be dead if Delhi was nuked.
the lady had 239 balls without a nuke ...
She had access to a nuke in days by then.

It was she who set of the bomb than in a loss of nerve called it peaceful. Never lived that one down.

Still, one tough lady.
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