India-US Nuclear Deal continued

sivab
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Postby sivab » 31 Dec 2006 00:59

Pakeeton estimate of Wgr Pu production from PFBR

http://www.princeton.edu/~aglaser/talk2006_princeton.pdf

JNUPakeeton 2006 estimate of U/Pu stockpile referred to in above presentation

http://www.fissilematerials.org/southasia.pdf

BTW, if you didn't catch it, Ind-pak stockpile equal-equal onlee...

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Postby Alok_N » 31 Dec 2006 02:08

sivab wrote:Pakeeton estimate of Wgr Pu production from PFBR

http://www.princeton.edu/~aglaser/talk2006_princeton.pdf


glaser is an NPA but the talk contains good work ... let's try and dissect ...

btw, Dec 13th is an interesting date for this talk ... isn't that the date on which Bush signed the Hyde ACt?

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Postby Arun_S » 31 Dec 2006 02:46

Alok: I think of ditto. And did a quick study of Glaser.

as always the repackaged hi tech research of Zia Mian and Nayyar produced Hog-shit. The pig manure in their brain is single tracked and very conveniently tries to pull a fast one by totally ignoring weapons grade Pu production in all the PHWR. His master's faithful servant.

But either way both Glaser and Zia-Mian can shove it up their musharraf or use as toilet paper. For it doesn't matter a sh** to further their interest. It is past CHECKMATE. Just go to MonterayBay beach and lick their wounds. Watching the blonds will be more productive then their writings.

Waiter give him a case of 'Ghodaa-Rum'; you know the kind we feed our military mules in Kashmir and Aksaichin?.

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Postby sivab » 31 Dec 2006 02:48

Bush signed Hyde act on Dec. 18.

Glaser is assuming minimum breeding ratio (1.06). IGCAR is bent on maximizing it. So his estimate is at minimum end of spectrum.
http://www.igcar.ernet.in/press_releases/press9.htm
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2004/08/13/stories/2004081301990400.htm

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Nuclear Deal

Postby Sanatanan » 31 Dec 2006 10:26

Hello every one! I am new to this Forum and I wish all of you a Very Happy and Prosperous Year 2007.

I have been browsing through this Thread (now running to Page 7) and feel that there is much importance given to weapons grade Plutonium production from India's PHWRs and Fast Breeders.

However U-233 is also fissile and can be used in weapons (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-233). Since India has plenty of Thorium, it can theoretically generate a large amount of U-233 and reserve it for weapons use. In India, Th-232 as a source of weapons grade material is available in much greater quantity than Natural Uranium for electricity generation as well as weapons grade Plutonium in Thermal and Fast Reactors. Of course, U-233 would also be required for electricity generation, and hence there is a cost associated with production of any weapons grade material.

This is why USA is pursuing a deep rooted, long term policy of preventing India from carrying out any reprocessing, and is trying to ultimately bring all of its (including Fast Breeder) reactors under a very intrusive inspection regime.

It will be suicidal for India to sign any Agreement that requires its nuclear facilities (whether "civilian" or "military") to foreign inspection and accept conditions such as those that have been indicated in the US's Hyde Act and its parent Atomic Energy Acts.

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Postby Arun_S » 31 Dec 2006 10:50

Welcome on BR-Forum.

The guys on BRF are very much aware of U233 potential. But it takes same number of free neutrons to make U233 or Pu239. So India has more options then others. It is roumoured that one of chotus in Pok-II was this exotic metal.

Though overall U233 based weapons are not the best choice in current circumstances, Pu is the preferred material.

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Re: Nuclear Deal

Postby Alok_N » 31 Dec 2006 11:02

Sanatanan wrote:I have been browsing through this Thread (now running to Page 7)


welcome ... unfortunately, we are a verbose bunch ... what you think is page 7 is actually page 277 ... 9x30 have bitten the dust ... :)

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Postby shyamd » 31 Dec 2006 21:17

India to acquire Uranium deposits from abroad
The UPA government is learned to have initiated a complete review of the availability of uranium to fuel its nuclear power plants, in the wake of the successful culmination of the Indo-US agreement for peaceful use of nuclear power.

India is likely to acquire economically viable uranium deposits abroad to exploit them for peaceful domestic use, apart from setting up new uranium exploration and extraction projects in six Indian states.

These are the proposals contained in a presentation by the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) to the committee of secretaries in early December. While substantial uranium deposits exist in India, "efforts should be taken to acquire economically viable uranium deposits abroad to exploit them for domestic use," DAE reportedly told the committee.

One strategy recommended was collaborating with major and minor uranium exploration companies the world over for exploration and exploitation in India and abroad.

India, DAE says, has the capacity to generate 21,180-megawatts of electricity by 2020, under its Nuclear Power Programme. The country has an established uranium oxide reserve of 1,17,800 metric tonne in the six states, it added.

DAE has identified Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Jharkhand, Chattisgarh, Meghalaya and Rajasthan for new domestic uranium projects. It has proposed a private-public partnership model for exploration and exploitation, with the Uranium Corporation of India Ltd (UCIL) holding not less than by 26 per cent shares, with management control by majority stakeholders.

Sources say Rohil in Rajasthan and Lambapur in Andhra Pradesh are likely to be the first two projects to be set up under this arrangement.

In order to expedite exploitation of the nation's uranium potential, DAE has reportedly urged that "a high-powered committee chaired by Cabinet secretary be set up to oversee statutory clearances by state and central authorities. Further, generic forest and environmental clearances be given for exploration by Atomic Minerals Directorate for Exploration and Research (AMD)."

AMD is responsible for exploration and research relating to atomic minerals required for India's nuclear programme.

Its responsibility of identifying nuclear raw materials (uranium, thorium, tantalum, beryllium, zirconium, lithium, yttrium, and rare earth minerals) is the first step in India's nuclear fuel cycle.

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Postby Gerard » 31 Dec 2006 22:36

India plans to ward off radioactive disaster
India has embarked on an elaborate plan to tackle the aftermath of a nuclear disaster. A high level meeting chaired by the Cabinet Secretary B K Chaturvedi here recently asked the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) to build a capacity for surveillance, detection, protection and decontamination to ward off radioactive disaster. The exercise code-named ‘Operation Kavach’ will start early next year.

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Postby Muppalla » 02 Jan 2007 17:23

PM meets top BJP leaders

PTI

NEW DELHI: Amid preparations for negotiating bilateral agreement to operationalise the Indo-US civil nuclear deal, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Tuesday met Atal Bihari Vajpayee, L K Advani and other top BJP leaders to apprise them of various foreign policy initiatives.

The luncheon meeting at Prime Minister's official Race Course Road residence was attended by Jaswant Singh and former National Security Adviser Brajesh Mishra.

External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, National Security Adviser M K Narayanan and Foreign Secretary Shivshanker Menon assisted the Prime Minister in outlining government's approach on the foreign policy front.

On his part, the Prime Minister has made it clear that India would not foreclose its option to carry out nuclear tests if the situation so warrants at a future date.

At the same time, he has contended that as a responsible nuclear state, India would continue to abide by its commitment of maintaining voluntary moratorium on testing.

The Prime Minister has assured parliament that there would be no compromise on India's strategic programme while negotiating the 123 bilateral agreement with the US.

Though New Delhi has generally welcomed the American legislation signed by president George W Bush, Singh during a telephonic talk with the American leader put it across that "some concerns" remained.

India's apprehensions relate to fuel assurances restriction on fissile material production and transfers of enrichment technology.

Both Singh and Bush are optimistic that these concerns would be addressed in the next stage of negotiations.

Indo-Pak relations are also understood to have figured in the discussions. Mukherjee will be calling on President Pervez Musharaff and meeting his Pakistani counterpart Khurshid Mohd Kasuri when travels to Islamabad on January 13 to invite Pakistani leadership to attend the SAARC summit to be held here in April.

Progress in talks with China, developments in Iran and Iraq and the situation in India's neighbourhood are among numerous issues on which the BJP has been seeking clarification from the government.

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Postby sraj » 03 Jan 2007 08:44

Don't believe these pieces by Rajiv Sikri have been posted here before:

Rajiv Sikri recently retired as Secretary in the Ministry of External Affairs, New Delhi after more than 36 years service as a diplomat. He can be contacted at rajivsikri@gmail.com
Nuclear deal: The road ahead for India
Among the touted benefits of the deal are firstly, that India will get recognition as a nuclear weapons power; secondly, that it would lead to the end of 'technology apartheid'; and finally, that it is better to be on the side of the US in the post-Cold War era. US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice has expressly ruled out the first. On the second, there is so far neither any evidence, nor commitment nor promise to warrant such a conclusion. The third argument is an important matter that deserves to be thoroughly debated, not blithely presumed.

and
The limits of Indo-US partnership
India will always remain a stunted global player unless it can exercise decisive influence in its immediate neighbourhood. Pakistan remains the principal obstacle to India's larger aspirations. It has been able to block and neutralise India in large part because of US military, political and economic support to Pakistan, which has been forthcoming in recognition of the important role that Pakistan occupies in US long-term strategic plans for the Gulf, Afghanistan, Iran and Central Asia -- as well as South Asia. The consistent US support to Pakistan has been a major factor that has kept India and the US estranged for so many decades. Indian protestations to the US have not managed to change US policies in this respect. Now, for reasons that remain inexplicable, we no longer protest, at least with any real conviction, US military supplies to Pakistan and US indulgence of Pervez Musharraf as a so-called ally in the 'war against terror.'

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Postby Alok_N » 03 Jan 2007 09:31

I'll get serious flame for this, but so what? ...

there is purging on both sides ... uncle has suppressed NPAs and India has superceded 16 oldtimers to find Menon ... Sikri has been bypassed ... :)

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Postby Vijay J » 03 Jan 2007 10:39

Alokji,

There is no connection. Superceeding is a routine affair, the number seems large but when you consider how many people are JS and above, it is not a significant fraction. A couple of years ago India Today reported that there were some 79 people with secretary level appointments, so you can imagine how in the past you used to supercede 6 people, now you have to supercede 16. No big deal.

NPA view points are outdated. Actually if you look at the American moves, very few people at the senior executive service were reorganised. The state department still has a bureau of non proliferation.

A real purge would have been much more spectacular, reminiscent of Stalin's moves or if you prefer Morarji's publish ad in the paper days. Now that is a real purge, this is just a minor readjustment.

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Postby Alok_N » 03 Jan 2007 10:59

Vijay J wrote: Superceeding is a routine affair, the number seems large but when you consider how many people are JS and above, it is not a significant fraction.


in one of these threads, JEM posted that 16 was unprecedented ... I just picked up on that ... I am not up on superceding stats, but IMO, 16 does appear to be out of the ordinary ...

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Postby geeth » 03 Jan 2007 14:18

>>>Superceeding is a routine affair, the number seems large

It is all because of connections. Menon's Uncle is (late) KPS Menon. KPS> Son-in-law of Sir C. Sankaran Nair (a true bootlicker of British Raj). KPS' Son (also another KPS Menon) was also Foreign Secretary. They All (except KPS Sr) hail from Ottapalam in Palakkad Dt. It just so happens that MK Narayanan, the kangress bootlicker is also from Ottappalam. These guys have nurtured their political connections very well (Sir C was the first president of Indian national Kangress).

Don't be surprised if the next one from this clan is appointed Foreign Secretary after superceding 60 seniors.

These kind of people have really robbed democracy from common man. They are the real masters and the netas are just instruments in their hands to further their vested interests. Ability has the least consideration, when these people are considered for appointment.

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Postby shyamd » 03 Jan 2007 15:57

BJP told Manmohan Singh – the India-US nuclear deal not acceptable for Indian interest – Manmohan told Vajpayee India will not compromise an inch
Finally Prime Minister Manmohan Singh got the message. What is the use of deal if the next Indian Government under BJP is going to repeal it? Amid preparations for negotiating bilateral agreement to operationalise the Indo-US civil nuclear deal, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Tuesday met Atal Bihari Vajpayee, L K Advani and other top BJP leaders to apprise them of various foreign policy initiatives.

The luncheon meeting at Prime Minister's official Race Course Road residence was attended by Jaswant Singh and former National Security Adviser Brajesh Mishra.

External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, National Security Adviser M K Narayanan and Foreign Secretary Shivshanker Menon assisted the Prime Minister in outlining government's approach on the foreign policy front.

On his part, the Prime Minister has made it clear that India would not foreclose its option to carry out nuclear tests if the situation so warrants at a future date.

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Postby Sanatanan » 03 Jan 2007 20:42

sivab said (in his post on 28 Dec 2006)
Arun_S:
Fuel handling systems seem to be one of the complex aspects of INDU. They seem to be designed for average fuel bundle replacement capacity requirements per day, as opposed to shuffling fuel bundles around. In fact nothing in enclosed links indicate they do any kind of shuffling at all.

http://www.npcil.nic.in/nupower_vol19_1-4/articles/Article19-Commissioning_of_Fuel.pdf

http://www.npcil.nic.in/nupower_vol19_1-4/articles/Article18-The_Challenge_of_Completing.pdf


Thanks sivab, for the two links giving information about the fuel loading system of Tarapur PHWRs.

I see that the pdf files give fairly large-sized photos of the fuel loading machine, which looks quite complicated. If India can design, manufacture, commission and operate such equipment all on its own, then do we still need technological help from the US?

The proposition that I would like to put forward is that in technological areas that are critical to our country, we should go it alone, without begging for help (agreeing to all sorts of demeaning conditions) from any other foreign country. Our aim should be to sell hi-tech products to the US/NSG, and we should work single-mindedly towards that. Any commerce (buying as well as selling) should be as between two equal partners. We have come thus far in development of technology and have developed our own nuclear power plants by taking forward the original Canadian design to suit our conditions; why are we projecting self doubts?

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Postby shyamd » 03 Jan 2007 21:53

Be wary of banking on 123 Agreement
Votaries of the Henry J. Hyde US-India Peaceful Atomic Energy Cooperation Act of 2006 passed by both Houses of the US Congress a few weeks ago, have been claiming that there is no need to worry about the objectionable conditionalities incorporated in the legislation since the agreement to be negotiated under Section 123 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 will serve as an antidote to its harmful impact on India's sovereignty and independent decision-making powers relating to its policies and programmes in the sphere of atomic energy. In other words, in their view, the conditionalities will not hold water once the 123 agreement comes into being.

This contention is not only misleading but can work against national interest. Neither the US President nor the Judiciary can ignore any of the stipulations laid down in any Congressional legislation except when called into question on the ground of being ultra vires of the Constitution. So long as the provisions of an Act do not explicitly countermand those of another Act, both the Acts and the legal requirements flowing from them conjointly hold the field. It is, therefore, wrong to think that Section 123 of the Atomic Energy Act can neutralise the effect of the Hyde Act.

Those propounding this untenable thesis have not obviously read the whole of Section 123, which is fairly elaborate, running into four pages of single space printing.

Mandatory "requirements"

Innocuously titled "Cooperation with other nations," it practically encapsulates the essence of the stipulations of the Hyde Act. It intriguingly, if not ominously, characterises the party seeking to negotiate the agreement, as "the cooperating party," as if the entire onus of upholding the sanctity of the negotiating process and the negotiated agreement falls on it alone, and it will be held to account as "a non-cooperating party" were it to protest against any foul play on the part of the US! Here is a sampler of "requirements" included in the 123 agreement:

A guarantee by "the cooperating party," in this case, India, that

— "no nuclear materials and equipment or sensitive nuclear technology to be transferred...and no special nuclear material produced through the use of any nuclear materials and equipment or sensitive nuclear technology transferred...will be used for any nuclear explosive device, or for research on, or development of, any nuclear explosive device, or for any other military purpose";

— "no material transferred...and no material used in or produced through the use of any material, production facility, or utilisation facility transferred will be reprocessed, enriched or...otherwise altered in form or content without the prior approval of the United States";

— any special nuclear material, production facility, or utilisation facility produced or constructed within India or through the use of any sensitive nuclear technology transferred will also be subject to the above requirements, and no nuclear material "will be stored in any facility that has not been approved in advance by the United States".

Submission to the President by the Secretary of State an unclassified Nuclear Proliferation Assessment Statement which shall analyse the consistency of the text of the agreement with all the specified requirements, the adequacy of safeguards, control mechanisms and assurances of peaceful use, accompanied by a classified report from the CIA as well.

Submission of the agreement to the relevant Congressional Committees for approval.

It is clear from a reading of the section as a whole that it is futile to bank on it to let India off the hook, and loosen the stranglehold of the Hyde Act to any extent.

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Postby Rye » 03 Jan 2007 23:42

Good article on the complete set of thieves and scoundrels that are in the parliament --- no wonder India cannot get anything right with these turds in charge. Even a rowdy schoolkid probably has more attendance than these elected slackers...not all that surprising though, given that most of the Indian MLAs are thieves and murderers of the worst sort who have not done a honest day's work in their entire life.


http://www.indianexpress.com/story/19938._.html


And to think that there were hopes of this bunch coming up with clever counter-rules during the Indo-US deal...these guys weren't even watching even though they are sitting members of parliament.

India is a democracy only nominally -- there are no real democratic processes at work --- the kind we saw in the US during the Indo-US deal.

A second indicator that is of concern is that Parliament passes a number of bills with little debate. This year, over 40 per cent of bills were passed in Lok Sabha with less than one hour of debate. The situation is only marginally better in Rajya Sabha. Of course, the pundits would point out that there is a Parliamentary Standing Committee system consisting of MPs from across party lines to examine bills in detail. However — as at the end of the monsoon session of Parliament — the attendance rates in Committee meetings averaged just about 40 per cent. In any case, closed room deliberations of committees cannot substitute for healthy and well-researched debates on the floor of Parliament on important legislation.

If we look at the participation of Lok Sabha MPs in legislative debates, the picture is not a happy one either. In the monsoon and winter sessions of Parliament this year, just 173 MPs in Lok Sabha actually said anything on the floor of Parliament on legislative issues. During these two sessions, almost 65 per cent of MPs said nothing on the floor of the Lok Sabha on legislation.


What is happening here is that the entire country is basically "trusting" Sonia and her coterie (or ABV and his coterie, if it was the BJP) to do the right thing --- the entire system's stability is predicated on good luck, it appears, and we are sure to run out of that soon enough, given the law of averages.
Last edited by Rye on 03 Jan 2007 23:51, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Rye » 03 Jan 2007 23:46


Sri K
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Postby Sri K » 04 Jan 2007 00:11



Swordsplay in the dark
Rajesh RajagopalanPosted online: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 at 0000 hrs Print EmailWith regard to the US-India nuclear deal, India’s paranoid class sees enemies where none exists
[\quote]

Rejoinders anyone?

And the most interesting part at the end :-o
The writer is associate professor of international politics, JNU, New Delhi

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Postby JE Menon » 04 Jan 2007 01:08

:twisted:

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Postby SriKumar » 04 Jan 2007 01:25

From the article:
This is why Pakistan is apoplectic, the non-proliferation fundamentalists are enraged
Non-proliferation ayatollahs or wot :?:

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Postby Vijay J » 04 Jan 2007 01:36

Alok and Geeth,

The secretary is always hand picked, and always people read all kinds of sectarian and ethnic motivations into the decision. It is a way of publicly acknowledging that the PM has made the decision without necessarily taking the commentator's personal views into account. So this kind of comments are not surprising.

Mr. Menon is correct that 16 is a big number, but when you consider how many people there are today at Addl. Secy and JS level, it is not surprising.

George J

Postby George J » 04 Jan 2007 02:36

the central government operates on a system of ‘empanelment’ whereby it places the officers with superior record on a panel from which it draws its top civil servants. Separate panels are drawn for the positions of Joint, Additional and full Secretaries...


I know this is the hot air forum and all but lets try and maintain a veneer of presenting factually correct information (rather than educated stupidity). If you are empaneled as Sec GOI (not Joint/Addl Sec) you are entitled to head ANY dept. that your political master wishes. Superseding is an insignificant word at this stage just coz you were empaneled in 2006 (usually 1971-73 batch) does not mean you are in any way less qualified than the 16 others in your 2006 cohort or the 2005 cohort (1970-1972 batch).

I am sorry to disturb your hot air by injecting facts...but please do carry on.

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Postby shyamd » 04 Jan 2007 18:33

India has R&D concerns on deal, to seek clarification from US
Chidambaram, Jan 04: India has concerns with regard to certain aspects of the US law on the Indo-US civil nuclear deal, including its impact on research and development, and would seek clarification on it from Washington, Department of Atomic Energy Secretary Anil Kakodkar said on Thursday.

"Certainly, there are concerns and that is for what we have to seek clarification," he told reporters here on the sidelines of the Indian Science Congress.

Asked whether there are concerns that the deal impinges on research and development(R&D), he said "Correct. We`ve to negotiate that and make sure that it(the agreement) does not impinge on our R&D".

"We have to maintain the autonomy of our R&D. No question about it," Kakodkar said.

He asserted that the domestic nuclear programme was independent and will "carry on" in that form.

"All external things we are looking at is additionality. Additionality is always welcome as long as it does not impinge on our domestic programme," Kakodkar said.

The top nuclear scientist pointed out that the deal was not negotiated yet.

Bureau Report


India to begin construction of AHWR

PTI[ THURSDAY, JANUARY 04, 2007 02:00:46 PM]
CHIDAMBARAM (TN): India will begin construction of the Advanced Heavy Water Reactor (AHWR) this year, marking launch of stage III of the country's nuclear programme.

"We will start the construction on the AHWR sometime this year," Atomic Energy Commission Chairman Anil Kakodkar said in a presentation at a theme session on Energy Security at the Indian Science Congress here.

He said the thorium-based AHWR was currently undergoing pre-licensing review by the Atomic Energry Regulatory Board.

The AHWR, a 300 MW technology demonstrator reactor, will take about five to six years to complete and cost between Rs five and six crore per mega watt.

Being developed at Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC), the AHWR aims to meet the objectives of using thorium fuel cycles for commercial power generation.

However, Kakodkar refused to reveal the site where the reactor would be built.

"We will make the announcement at an appropriate time," he said.

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Postby Alok_N » 04 Jan 2007 18:55

shyamd wrote:The AHWR, a 300 MW technology demonstrator reactor, will take about five to six years to complete and cost between Rs five and six crore per mega watt.


does anyone wish to comment on why it will take that long? ... I assume that the design is complete ...

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Postby JE Menon » 04 Jan 2007 19:30

George J, whose post are you referring to, can't find it...

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Postby Vijay J » 04 Jan 2007 19:57

The term superceding comes in when you are promoted in place of other who are technically above you in terms of a sense of seniority.

This term can be used without heed to the specifics of the panel. You can say Mr. So and So has been superceded without actually bothering to inform the person in front of you that actually Mr. So and So was on the panel because he did a really wonderful job in the Environment Ministry and it is hoped that he will replace the incumbent after he retires. So things like this can easily fluff up the number of actually superceded officers from 6 to 16.

But the key thing to remember that any sense of entitlement and seniority that derives from this procedure is solely that of the civil servants and has little for the politicians. The politicians are not strictly bound by this scheme. It is always political prerogative to determine which civil servant should serve in which capacity and the civil servant's sense of entitlement has little or no relevance here.

There really should not be any surprise about the numbers 6 or 16, because you see we are a big country with a big government. When you take that into account you realise the panel is huge.

George J

Postby George J » 04 Jan 2007 22:04

Vijay J wrote:You can say Mr. So and So has been superceded without actually bothering to inform the person in front of you that actually Mr. So and So was on the panel because he did a really wonderful job in the Environment Ministry and it is hoped that he will replace the incumbent after he retires. So things like this can easily fluff up the number of actually superceded officers from 6 to 16. ...


You guys are not understanding the concept of empanelment and what it means. Now I know most jingos have scant regard for babudom but that does not preclude you from understanding the systems that are in place before incorrectly inferring to stuff to make outlandish assertions...like did well in Env Ministry so lets empanel him/her. That's NOT how it work.

the members of the All-India civil service start as Deputy Secretaries and normally go up to the level of Joint Secretaries, beyond which promotion is granted only after selection. For every post beyond Joint Secretary level, candidates are empaneled and the selection is done by the Cabinet Committee on Appointments, receiving inputs from the Administrative Ministry and the Department of Personnel and Training. The Establishment Officer in this Department provides the policy inputs. There is no lateral entry in the All-India services. Only at the level of Secretary to the Government of India, specialists are taken as Secretaries. (GJ-e.g. DAE Kakodkar, DRDO, DOS etc) The Advisors to the various Ministries could also be non-IAS persons. Only 5% of the members of the All-India services reach the top position of Secretary to Government.


So let me REPEAT IT again if you didnt understand it (or did not want to understand it). If you are empaneled as Secretary Government of India (which is a VERY prestigious position for any IAS babu, you belong to an elite pool of babus from WITHIN which your political massa will choose their babu, you cannot be in Dilli if you are not empaneled (see the part about jt.sec, addl. sec, prin. sec empanelment...but the real honor is the Sec) If you are Sec. GOI you are pretty senior and if your political massa wants you can be cabinet sec with 2 years of service left.

At any given time due to their seniority there would be say 50-100 Sec. GOI babus (variable, but I am making an assumption here based on anecdotal info) across the land. Even if you are empaneled Sec. GOI your parent cadre can request the center NOT to take you coz you are needed in the state (usually happens to good officers who actually do work who also happen to have good relations with their political massa...OR they come from states like MH and KR which afford a superior std of living/quality of life than the boondocks for cowbelt babu driven Dilli). But that does not mean dilli billis are whining for babus (they sometimes do but that depends on the political massa) it has enough and more cow belt and non cow belt babus who have foresaken their home cadre since jt. sec level and established themselves in Dilli.

So if you are in the latest cohort to be empaneled and there would be max 1 or 2 cohorts before you which means the difference in seniority could be 4 years max. Now jingos like to twist this to make their own case, but in reality this hardly matters.

PS: I will even give you a clue that will somewhat support your otherwise inane argument....HOW is the process of empanelment done? :twisted:

JEM:
I donno....this is the hot air forum....I cant keep up with what I am arguing about. I am just trying to clarify the who misconception of superseding with some fantastic madrassa mathematical # like 32 officers etc. Who knows what these guys argue about? :D

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Postby John Snow » 04 Jan 2007 23:00

JEM:
I donno....this is the hot air forum....I cant keep up with what I am arguing about. I am just trying to clarify the who misconception of superseding with some fantastic madrassa mathematical # like 32 officers etc. Who knows what these guys argue about?


You sir, are certainly a celebrated and long standing member of this august hot air forum, known to blow hot and cold. :)
Last edited by John Snow on 05 Jan 2007 01:02, edited 1 time in total.

Vijay J
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Postby Vijay J » 04 Jan 2007 23:55

George J,

It is my understanding that empanelment constitutes a necessary and not sufficient criteria for selection to a particular position within the GoI.

Despite whatever is touted by the generalist clique, ultimately empanelment occurs on the basis of performance in a specific field. There is a heirarchy attached to your achievements and the higher you go, the greater is the weight attached to your most recent achievements. So ultimately your specific achievement do matter in your rise to the panel. Yes people are empaneled with an eye on a wide range of possible roles, but that does not in guarentee that they will be placed somewhere completely random. It is simply a flexibility that the GoI chooses for purposes of redundancy. Utlimately the final placement takes into account the individual characteristics of the bureaucrat and the demands of the job and even here there is some wiggle room. This is no different then what you have in any large bureaucracy inside a major corporation.

I confess I have never understood what role age based seniority should play in the appointment of officials after they have been empaneled. I thought the whole objective of empanelment is was to level the playing field in some way and ensure that only the most capable adminstrators are available for the government's service at very short notice. So why do people on the panel feel that they are more deserving of a particular position when it is quite clear that the choice is based from this point almost entirely on political choice?

Any sense of entitlement that is derived from empanelment smacks of hubris to me. Ultimately political will is the final say in matters, so why pretend otherwise at this late a stage in ones' career?

I am personally sad that an officer with as good a record as Secy. Sikri could not progress to his hearts desire in the adminstration, and I cannot say I would have felt any different had I been in his shoes. However the claim that 16 officers were superceded is a canard. Though I have a very strong stomach for this ritual bickering that accompanies all major appointments in the government, I admit I am a little disappointed at the tone that this latest fracas is taking. The tone has done much to denigrate our sophisticated adminstrative selection setup and I have never really liked it when people do that.

I will also be very sad if an officer as capable and upright as Secy. Menon is disgraced by the failure of this India-US deal, mind you, Secy. Saran, another very capable and upright officer came very close to this possibility and that was bad enough in my opinion. Some of us have very long memories and we have not forgotten the kind of news articles that appeared after his appointment. I would really prefer it if the conduct of the US-India deals did not end up costing bureaucrats their careers and the GoI its national standing but then I might as well wish for pony.

Ofcourse media will print anything that seems remotely scandalous, just to get their sales up, but if high level bureaucrats have to have this explained to them, then I fear the panel system should have a new evaluation criterion - understanding of the role of the media - added.
Given the way that I see people behave I really wonder if some of them understand the role of the media or if they even grasp that the media seeks enslave the government. I feel there is a lack of awareness of the media's intentions here and that is a real problem. I am tempted to suggest that until a new evaluation criteria, media awareness, is applied, no new appointments should be made from the present panel and extentions be given to incumbents instead.

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Postby NRao » 05 Jan 2007 00:18

Construction of nuclear reactor starting this year: Kakodkar

(Strange, another title states that Dr. K will request clarifications.....)

Construction of nuclear reactor starting this year: Kakodkar

Chidambaram, Tamil Nadu, UNI:

Atomic Energy Commission Chairman Anil Kakodkar today said India will start constructing its Advance Heavy Water Reactor later this year as part of its domestic nuclear programme.

"The project will take five to six years to complete," Dr Kakodkar told reporters at the 94th Indian Science Congress here.

Without giving the location of the reactor, he said it would cost Rs 5 to 6 crore per MW.


The Chairman said the project was undergoing pre-licencing review.

George J

Postby George J » 05 Jan 2007 00:24

Arre baba we are going round in circles. Let me see if I can straighten this out:

Fact 1:
Rajiv Sikri was one of 16 senior Indian Foreign Service officers superseded when the government chose Shiv Shankar Menon as India's foreign secretary in late September.....


The very fact that he was Secretary GOI means he was IFS officer (1970 batch) who manged to get empaneled (possibly in the 2004-2005 cohort). The very fact that Shiv Shankar Menon (1972 batch) was given this post means that S.S. Menon who was recently empaneled (IIRC May 2006) was considered a BETTER OFFICER by the political masters. I believe only 16 officers per year per service (IAS/IPS/IFS) get empaneled (again from memory)

Fact 2:If Sikri has 36 years of service then Menon has 34. Further, there are 16 officers with 36 (1970 batch) and 35 (1971 batch) years of service respectively...not counting the whole 1972 batch who would have similar service length as Menon.

Fact 3:
Angered by the government's decision, Sikri, who had served the IFS for 36 years, resigned from the foreign service. This is his first column since quitting the IFS. Exclusive to rediff.com


Mr.Sikri has all the right to be angry, technically he has taken voluntary retirement (like he wants to give up 35 yrs of his pension by actually resigning). And his op-ed is his way of expressing his displeasure. But I am sure in 36 years of service he has learnt that no matter how qualified he thinks he is, its for his political masters to decided his fate. Thats a sad fact.

Remember you can be empaneled (in the IAS) and STILL GET Sec. Dept of Animal Husbandry or Some other inane central govt dept. I donno what the Sec. GOI level positions are for IFS, but I am sure they too have some animal husbandry type of positions.

Why was S.S Menon chosen over 16 + 2006 empaneled cohort?

Well this is a very esoteric phenom. It will be pure conjecture so it may not make for valid arguments. You can have a superb ACR (Admin. Career Record, the babu report card, yes there is such a thing, that most jingos dont care about, coz they are too wrapped in their chai-biscoot delusions) and you could have a superb reputation (as defined by IB...yes there are files on each and every babu (and neta) and IB knows what IB knows (constitutionally approved)...bet you jingos didn't even know/care about such facts either.)

The political massa have the prerogative to CHOOSE ANYONE THEY LIKE from those qualifed and please please understand that if you are SEC GOI you are SEC GOI it does not matter if you are 36 or 34 years of experience. This is based on recommendation from other babu/neta and their own PERSONAL RAPPORT (these are seasoned politicians and babus they have met before in some capacity in their long careers where they have indulged in millions of chai-biscoot sessions)

With 36 years of service (22 + 36 =58 y/o min, or he could be 59ish if he goofed around before his UPSC exams, vs 56 to 57 ish for S.S Menon this gives him 3-4 years of service. Do you want just a senior man or the right man for the job who will have enough time to delineate policies and implement them?

Finally, if what was done was ILLEGAL dont you think Sikri would have taken this matter before CAT or Courts? He knows its NOT ILLEGAL, he knows this is what happens, he is just venting his frustrations (and thereby burning any political goodwill he has in 36 years) via the media. I guess he really does not want his pension (for starters).

Vijay J
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Postby Vijay J » 05 Jan 2007 00:45

George J,

Here is my problem with this.

I can easily empathise with Secy. Sikri's feelings, but when any bureaucrat joins the service it is made abundantly clear to them that ultimately the elected leadership will make the decisions in the country. I am not asking for people to work without ambition, but where does the question of rediscovering this fact come from?

It is one thing for a Pakistani Army general to go about criticising the fact that he was superceded for the post of Army chief by Nawaz Sharif, but that is because every Pakistan Army fellow is taught to believe that he is the decision maker and not the civilian who is PM. Even then look at the quiet dignity with which Lt. Gen. Ali Kuli Khan Khattak has conducted himself after what Nawaz and Musharraf did to him! That man is setting an example for all the Pakistan Army people. Even after the terrible way in which Musharraf behaved with him in public, Ali Kuli Khan Khattak responded with one tersely worded oped in a newspaper. This was some five years after he had been political outmaneuvered by Musharraf's clique.

Is it too much to expect that the act of questioning the Indian PM's right to choose be conducted in a more private fashion? What sort of an example is being set by people at the Secy. level in India? Where is the quiet dignity and poise that came with being a Secy to the GoI? Why all this infantile breast beating and whining before a media? Why are people keen on behaving poorly?

How many administrative officers serve under far worse conditions with a greater sense patience and civility? What about all those DMs in far away places? What of those Class III and Class IV employees who suffer far more indignity with calm and reserve? What will they think if someone at a high level in GoI acts like this?

Is this exercise in expressing the disappointment of a few people endangering the greater balance of things? Is this public show of disenchantment damaging the image of the entire bureaucracy?

Why is it that no one is asking such questions and insteadly blindly falling to seductive reporting by a media that seeks to ultimately enslave the government as a whole?

George J

Postby George J » 05 Jan 2007 01:03

Vijay J wrote:Is it too much to expect that the act of questioning the Indian PM's right to choose be conducted in a more private fashion? What sort of an example is being set by people at the Secy. level in India? Where is the quiet dignity and poise that came with being a Secy to the GoI? Why all this infantile breast beating and whining before a media? Why are people keen on behaving poorly?......


I tune out when you talk about Paki generals so please forgive me if I missed some point in there that was pertinent to Sikri vs Menon.

I dont think its just PM's choice, its a more complicated decision that involves a lot of stakeholders. Even Sikri knows that (he should). I cant speak for IFS but the standing joke in IAS circles is "at the most what ? You will get Animal Husbandry*" your expectations SHOULD be in line with your political/administrative competence.**

Its not infantile breast beating, there is always more to a story than whats reported (there are too many such stories out there). I am going to guess, and this is just an educated guess....that someone promised someone a certain post and that someone just believe that, till something happened otherwise. Even you WILL get pissed if that happens (its happened to me in job interviews). In this brave new world of blogs, rediff op-ed....heck even BRF, you have avenues to VENT your frustrations.

I frankly dont think anyone who is anyone in babu or political circles gives a rats musarraf about his utterances. But if hot air wants to empathize/sympathize/eulogies Mr.Sikri they are free to do so PROVIDED they acknowledge the FACTS. You cant make opinions without being aware of the facts (please leave that to Nilekani IT-Vity types)

Finally, for IFS wallah I am assuming that becoming Phoren Sec is the biggest kahuna out there (I am sure there are other Sec. GOI appointments, but I dont follow IFS types). For IAS wallah its Cabinet Sec, but I donno if you folks know that there are enough and MORE IAS babus who are at the state level (some with Sec. GOI empaneled) who are as seniors as the current Cab Sec (his own batch mates) and this will always be. You don't hear 16 IAS babus whine why they didn't become Cab. Sec (actually it would be short list of 2-3..again beyond the scope of this discussion). They are all happy being Chief Sec (addl. Chief Sec) of their state or Sec GOI Dept of Animal Husbandry.
_____________________________
* there is a more uncharitable dept. but I dont want to go there.
** this is very important, off course if you hold onto BRF endorsed chai-biscoot delusions, the subtleties of running a country is completely lost on you. You will just have to go with the standard IT-Vity knows more than everyone else delusions.
Last edited by George J on 05 Jan 2007 01:14, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
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Postby ramana » 05 Jan 2007 01:12

Can we take this interesting babu-neta rights- perogatives discussion to another thread? Say the Indian interests or the Foreign Policy thread seeing that its the MEA chaps and chappettes involved?
Thanks, ramana

George J

Postby George J » 05 Jan 2007 01:19

I think I am done...unless Vijay J et.al belabor the point.

I only hope the next time hot air folks have a similar discussion they will include some facts when expounding on their pet chai-biscoot theories.

Moral of the story:
If you have 36 years of service you are in no way more entitled than another officer with 34 year of service since you are both empaneled as Sec. GOI. It was/is/will be a political prerogative.

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Postby Vijay J » 05 Jan 2007 02:24

Hello, lets get some thing clear, it is always a political decision, so it should not look like something unusual or new has been done here. So why all the fuss?

There is no basis in fact to develop any sense of entitlement out of this panel appointment. That is the way it has always been. This is the only way to keep the iron frame of government loyal to the political arm.

What exactly don't people know about this? that a army fellow or policeman with 38 years of service can be order to die in the line of duty for some pointless CASOP in Kashmir? or that a seventeen year old Jawan will be told to climb on top Saltoro or die trying? what exactly is new here? Where does a bureaucrat develop notions of entitlement?

Yes for IFS people the secy rank is the highest there is to aspire for and similarly for some other services the Chief is as far as they can go, so what? like that for a Pakistani Jernail, the COAS is the biggest position, do you see Kuli Khan whining? When I have to give the example of a Pakistani Jernail for people in India, how bad have things become?

Venting should be kept private or atleast made indirect, this is the tradition and this is the culture. That is why we have fine institutions where you can live in self imposed angry retirement talking to your friends about how the country is going to the dogs under the politicians. A public show and tell is unprecedented. Of all people an IFS person should understand this. Do I have to give people a history lesson on how it is done? what happened to that famous understanding of history? or has all that been lost in the rush to write a weblog?! Who are we looking at here? another Harsh Mander?

The ITvity people are all jumping on this superceding issue and drawing inferences from a routine matter. Despite what delusions they retain about their greatness the ITvity people are harmless compared to what can happen elsewhere.

The real potential for trouble comes when people inside the admin get the idea that it is okay to shed your uniform in a big public drama if GoI does something you don't like. The whole idea of silent service goes out the window!

What next some Army people venting about not being made Army Chief? Perhaps an intelligence officer should decide he doesn't want his pension and start writing memoirs instead?

Where does it stop?

Do I sound like ITvity person to you?

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Postby ramana » 05 Jan 2007 02:32

Ok, Enough. Bas!


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