SEAD ops in the IAF

tingudu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 14
Joined: 19 Jul 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India
Contact:

SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby tingudu » 17 Nov 2002 15:37

Hi,
What exactly are the aircraft(except the 23BN) that are used in the Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses?
What are the tactics involved?
Is it done with help(spotting, target desigantion) of FACs or the army?
What exactly are the weapons used? (BR IAF orbat states the Kh 31 and its variants, but I havent seen a pic of it on any IAF aircraft, or any other missile like the ARMAT for that matter)
Do we send aircraft prior to strike missions to eliminate the threat? or is it that the strike aircraft relies on its own EW devices to get through?
Is it practised enouigh? If so against what kind of simulated targets? Do we have ground based sims that could train pilots to perform SEAD or DEAD operations?

Thanks,

Regards,
Admins, please dont move this thread anywhere, I think this is a very rarely discussed topic that merits its own thread.

bhart
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 41
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31
Location: New Delhi
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby bhart » 17 Nov 2002 16:40

I think the MiG 27s & 23s(updated) were selected for this role. The Kh25 used to be(and most probably still is) the most widely issued anti radiation missile. It came with the MiG 27 deal, in the 80s,I think. Was supposed to be quite capable.

Aditya_M
BRFite
Posts: 166
Joined: 01 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: Blighty
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Aditya_M » 17 Nov 2002 19:00

Wouldnt the addition of the Su-30MKI add a new dimension to SEAD missions?

With its large fuel load, it can burn more for fast low alt missions and can carry enough stuff for a couple of passes plus handle some a2a threats. And since it can carry half the stuff in the Russian armoury, Kh-31P included, it has better standoff capability than both the Floggers.

A flight of four would be an awesome force - two providing cover, the other two raising hell on the ground... since the MKI has radar coverage for 300 degrees out of 360 (180 fwd, 120 rear) for at least 50 kms, it reduces the probability of being "jumped on" by pesky fishbeds or mirages.

Can the Su-30 keep up with the MiG-23 on a low level high speed burning flight?

tingudu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 14
Joined: 19 Jul 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby tingudu » 17 Nov 2002 19:58

Originally posted by Bharat M:
I think the MiG 27s & 23s(updated) were selected for this role. The Kh25 used to be(and most probably still is) the most widely issued anti radiation missile. It came with the MiG 27 deal, in the 80s,I think. Was supposed to be quite capable.
Hi BharatM,
Are you the same Bharat who attended BR Bby meets?

Anyways, can you please tell me from where u got this info from. Also any pics of IAF aircraft carrying the same?
Thanks,

Regards,

Rudra
BRFite
Posts: 599
Joined: 28 May 2001 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Rudra » 17 Nov 2002 20:12

IAF is surely going to need a desi version of the Prowler for extended standoff jamming. The SEAD role can also be folded into same a.c.

MKIs being optimized for manouver and speed are not the ideal airframe.

Methinks the SU32 Platypus in limited number would be able to replace the 23/21 SEAD quite handily. Capacious belly and wings to hang pods off. Reduce the internal tanks to install powerful ECM gear. and carry 10 ARMs. long loiter time and good escape speed.

Badar
BRFite
Posts: 410
Joined: 23 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Badar » 17 Nov 2002 20:59

Hi,

The best way of degrading an enemy ADGES is by neutralising the C4I nodes. How well equipped is the IAF (equipement, training, doctrine and intelligence) to deal with PAF Air Defense Command HQs and SOCs?

How important is Tactical SEAD for the IAF considering the extremely modest SAM assets of the PAF/PA?

Has a cheaper way been found to dealing with Flak Batteries and MANPADS than simply flying around them or out of their range? Or at worst cluster bombing the hell out of those that cant be evaded or ignored?

MKIs being optimized for manouver and speed are not the ideal airframe

Rudra, what is an ideal airframe for an dedicated SEAD aircraft? What makes an Su-32 a better aircraft for this role than MKI?

Aditya_M
BRFite
Posts: 166
Joined: 01 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: Blighty
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Aditya_M » 17 Nov 2002 22:45

Exactly - I'd have thought the ability to move fast and turn hard would make it tough for any SAM or esp AAA that fired at you?

C3I - that is command, control, communication, and intelligence. what is C4I?

I dont think the mods RS suggested for the Platypus are feasible - you cant talk of a good loiter time and reduce internal tanks for ECM at the same time! But since we are building MKIs locally, it would be easier to modify an MKI for special SEAD roles, like hangin the Sorbistya (sp?) on the wingtips and putting ARMs on at least 6 stations if not eight. With AAR, it should get its own time on target. Plus it will reduce pilot training times as the Su-34 being all new would again take time, not counting the bureaucratic delays...

Also my curent data doesnt say anything about a datalink on the Su-32/34. Can anyone confirm?

mohan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 47
Joined: 15 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby mohan » 17 Nov 2002 23:04

Hi,

The posts so far are talking about what could be done/ what is the 'best' solution we can acquire. However, the IAF must have some strategy for SEAD with its existing systems, without factoring in the MKI. What shape could that have ?
Don't we have a few Mig-21's dedicated for stand-off jamming ?
What would an attack package consist of ? Would it be a flight of attack aircraft like 21's/29's (if they can be spared) followed by the 23/27's ? or would they rather attack 'out of the blue', relying on their own firpower to fight their way back if need be ?

Cheers
Mohan

Badar
BRFite
Posts: 410
Joined: 23 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Badar » 18 Nov 2002 01:16

Hi,

Rudra, MKI has excellent range and endurance, sufficient atleast for the IAFs needs. It is intriging that you talk about a dedicated EW variant based on the Su-32FN - a naval strike platform; when most russian plans talk about Su-34MP...

BTW, do we really need a dedicated EW bird? Cant IAF needs be met by putting L005S on the wingtips and a pair of L175Vs under the intakes plus 4 Kh-31Ps on the underwing hardpoints? Need more Kh-31Ps? Give it an escort with 6 more Kryptons.

If the above wont work then what kind of EW bird do we need? What roles and missions would require it which the MKI cant deal with?

Aditya, C4I - Command, Control, Communications, Computers and Intelligence.

I share your reticence in adding yet another airframe type to the IAF logistics burden.

Rudra
BRFite
Posts: 599
Joined: 28 May 2001 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Rudra » 18 Nov 2002 06:34

sure building more MKIs is a simpler solution. But...the ECM gear has to be israeli, french or indian.

Pak is going to be getting a lot of good PRC stuff from 2010 onwards. Just likes us, many PRC long terms programmes are reaching maturity. And with Unkil doling out billions $$, more can be spared for purchases.

- high altitude SAM
- long range radars
- ARMs & LGBs in large quantities
- J10 as the hi-end
- used F16s sooner or later that Pak will promptly upgrade with PRC-AA12, better cockpit, damocles :rotfl:

plus there is the original PRC itself!

Timeframes for potential wars keep getting shorter and shorter. The things we have to lose keep getting more precious.

I suggested a larger airframe for powerful internal equipment, not just wing mounted pods.

disruptive ideas and technology is needed to achieve quick victories.

Rajit
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 34
Joined: 30 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Mumbai

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Rajit » 18 Nov 2002 10:41

Tingudu

KH 58 : http://www.acig.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=1538&forum=5

Some interesting threads on Weasel tactics

http://yarchive.net/mil/weasel.html
http://members.tripod.com/~Wobert/f4g.html

My own take on SEAD / DEAD is that the pre-requisite should be that the SEAD platform have a 2 man crew which would make the MKI the logical choice, but not the only one since Mirages and Jags are also available in this config.The reason - heavy workload required in locating / identifying and neutralising an emitter will tax any single crew platform to the limits.

Of course SEAD in the USAF is now the preserve of the single seat F 16CJs which took over from the F4Gs / F 111s but increasingly Predator UCAVs should take over this role in the U.S..wonder what impact the Harpy capability brings to the IAF...any idea which units have been designated to operate them?

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Shankar » 18 Nov 2002 11:53

Su-30s are not a cost optimal solution to sead mission -they are way to expensive and their role in any future air combat will be quite different -airspace control and dominance -long range maritime strike-airborne early warning and air combat control in their own sectors etc.For SEAD
missions less expensive and more agile aircraft is prefered and MIG-27 fits the role best.Apart from anti radiation missiles it also need to carry some dumb iron bombs to take care of shoulder fired SAMs and lot of ammo in 30mm guns just to scare the infantry and damage
and equipment detcted in open.Some amount of PGM support is essential which can be provided by Mirage 2000s flying top cover.We need to develop microwave bombs for better
ressults instead of depending on dedicated jamming aircraft.May be for the time being some of
AN-32s can be equipped with broad band jamming gear for this purpose

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby JCage » 18 Nov 2002 12:14

Su-30s are not a cost optimal solution to sead mission -they are way to expensive and their role in any future air combat will be quite different -airspace control and dominance

Au contraire.The MKI will be the IAF's preminent strike bird.The air superiority role will be one of many hats worn.The advantage the MKI brings to SEAD is its reach out and hit factor.Which nullifies the low level radar defense the PAF depends on.Once "holes" are created,the IAF fleet can use for ingress and egress them as it wills.

The "agile" MiG 27 in comparison has a single pilot,limited ROA,limited payload ; as good as it is,it cant compare to what a MKI brings in.

BTW,if you're expecting the IAF to stick to "tried and tested" tactics of low level ingress,dodging MANPADS etc for SEAD,suffice to say you're wrong.

Regards,
Nitin

bhart
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 41
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31
Location: New Delhi
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby bhart » 18 Nov 2002 14:03

Hi Tingudu! No, I am not the same Bharat.
You can see a MiG 27 with a Kh 25 in front of it , in the BR archive. All open source info :) .

Michael
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 78
Joined: 28 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Michael » 18 Nov 2002 14:18

Current IAF SEAD assets:

16 x Mig-23BN (specially modified with ECM eqpt, these are dedicated jammers. May be able to fire Kh-series anti-radar missiles as well.)

12 x Mig-21M (same as above, but probably cannot fire anti-radar missiles. Probably just dedicated to jamming only)

Matra ARMAT (anti-radar missile, can be employed by Jaguar or Mirage-2000)

Kh-25MP (anti-radar missile, can be employed by Mig-27, SU-30MKI, Mig-21-93)

Kh-31P2, Kh-59 (no evidence that these are presenty in service with IAF, but if they were, could be employed by Mig-27, Mig-21-93, and SU-30MKI)

So, you've got 28 dedicated jammers, with Jaguars, Mirage-2000's, Mig-27's, and SU-30MKI's also able to fire anti-radar missiles.

However, the biggest Pakistani air defense threat is posed not by radar-guided systems but MANPAD's, which cannot be jammed, cannot be hit with anti-radar missiles, and cannot be taken out with precision strikes. The other major threat is cheap unguided AAA guns. Since SEAD assets cannot effectively neutralize MANPADs and AAA, the best solution is to avoid them. Bomb from high altitude, and when that's not possible, when you have to go in low, do it at night, use flares, come in fast, and don't use predictable ingress/egress routes.

The IAF could probably disrupt/neutralize Pakistan's GCI radar network, knock out or jam their SA-2's, and make their radar-guided AAA guns ineffective. IAF ARM's & jammers would also make it hard for Pakistanis to properly employ their Crotale & RBS-70 medium-range IR SAM's. But even with the more sophisticated Pakistani air defenses neutralized, unguided AAA and MANPAD's would remain the greatest threat because of the IAF's limited nighttime/high-altitude strike capability (which would force most IAF strikes to go in at low altitude during the day).

Therefore, one of the best ways for the IAF to minimize losses is to upgrade Jaguars & Mig-27's for high-altitude/all-weather/night-fighting missions. Currently only Mirage-2000's and a handful of SU-30MKI's have this ability.

Rajit
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 34
Joined: 30 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Mumbai

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Rajit » 18 Nov 2002 14:46

Mike, what about Harpy capability...I believe it adds a totally new dimension to the SEAD battle.

As for MANPADS and AAA well i think they are way way too overrated.....

MANPADS : The kills in Afganistan and Kargil are not very impressive IF you consider that aircraft when carrying out ops in mountainous terrain have predictable flight paths and are much easier to ambush than in the Indo-Gangetic Plain or Thar Desert where the bulk of the slugfests will happen in a next Indo - Pak conflict.

AAA: In Desert Storm the Iraqis had the mother of all firework displays with all those tracers weaving crazy patterns in the night sky but how many allied aircraft were brought down?

tingudu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 14
Joined: 19 Jul 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby tingudu » 18 Nov 2002 15:48

Hi,
thanks for the replies all,

Rajit,
Great to see you posting!
Re: Harpy, great point, adds another dimension, it will be great against mobile SAMS like the Crotale which make up the bulk of PA-AD. Me thinks that SEAD/DEAD against HQ-2b s will be easier compared to the mobile and med ranged Crotale.
The RBS 70 with its laser guidance will be not too easy to counter, if it is in wide-spread PA service.

BharatM,
The Kh in front of the MiG 27 ML is not an ARM usable in SEAD, it is also short ranged.

Also,
to repeat the original questions,
What are the tactics involved?
Is it done with help(spotting, target desigantion) of FACs or the army?
What exactly are the weapons used? (BR IAF orbat states the Kh 31 and its variants, but I havent seen a pic of it on any IAF aircraft, or any other missile like the ARMAT for that matter)
Do we send aircraft prior to strike missions to eliminate the threat? or is it that the strike aircraft relies on its own EW devices to get through?
Is it practised enouigh? If so against what kind of simulated targets? Do we have ground based sims that could train pilots to perform SEAD or DEAD operations?

Thanks,

Also,
In 71, were any SEAD ops/sorties done?

Thanks,

Regards,

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Shankar » 18 Nov 2002 17:22

Nitin
just because su-30 can deplow anti radiation missiles or guided bombs does not automatically mean it will ever be use in SEAD missions.
USAF does not use F-15s or will not even dream of using F-22s.
F-16s are the only aircraft used for SEAD missions now mainly the 52nd wing based in Before germany.Sometimes they do use A-10 s but mostly it is F-16s.
F-15s were used in gulf for destrying scuds but that because they were on CAPat that time
and response time from detection to hit had to be very very short.
British use Tornados in low altitude ingress equipped mainly with Laser guided bombs and anti radiation missiles
USAF did also use AH-64 s in some SEAD missions with hellfire missiles but that because
by that time iraqi airforce almost did not exist.
Even F-14s were not used for sead missions
Russians using attack choppers and mig -23s in chechnya.So i think we best use MIG-27S not sukhoi-30s
even better would be to use UACV -it should not be very difficult to develop

Sree
BRFite
Posts: 103
Joined: 27 Nov 2001 12:31
Location: Southern Africa

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Sree » 18 Nov 2002 17:43

Originally posted by tingudu:
... What are the tactics involved? ...

... In 71, were any SEAD ops/sorties done?

A couple of very quick points in response:

Yes, in both '65 and '71, SEAD ops were undertaken. Recall Badar's point, early in this thread, that the most effective way to undertake SEAD is to destroy the nodes of the EAD system. (That's way more effective than looking for and shooting up individual dishes; especially now that dishes can be mounted on vehicles.) In '65 and '71, the two primary nodes of the Pakistani AD system were Sakesar (near Sargodha) and Badin (near Karachi/Mauripur). Both were SOCs.

The IAF hit Badin hard, in '65; and hit both Badin and Sakesar in '71. And we paid a heavy price too -- Wg Cdr HS Gill was lost attacking Badin, and Sqn Ldr JM Mistry and at least one other pilot were lost in attacking Sakesar (iirc the three-ship mission tasked to take out Sakesar lost two of its three in the attack) -- but both SOCs went off the air. As anyone who's been there will tell you, these were among the most difficult strikes, against some of the best-defended targets, of the entire war.

I have no idea of the current Pak ADGE structure, or where their current SOCs and ADCCs are -- but I'd be amazed if there weren't a few people in India whose job it is to know, and a few others whose job it is to train to take them out.

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby JCage » 18 Nov 2002 19:06

Ghosh,
We arent the USAF ; nor do we have the plethora of assets they can deploy piecemeal as tehy see fit.

The only F15 that comes close to the MKI is the E version and its variants thereof.I think we know what the E does.

The MKI was ,from day1 ,intended as a *multirole* a/c with a self escort capability.

Look up into what we have procured for it ,in terms of EW per contractual data,and as to the capabilities.
Also compare what the IAF has publicly stated what it intends to do and how it intends to go about it.
Your other thing about "just because it can...do pgms"..is fallacious.

This is not "just" an a/c,its "the" a/c as regards this work.

Think about whether you would like to have a single seater,flying NOE,evading MANPADS,tracking his ECM suite for emissions ,and trying to target at one go.Or whether you'd take out a "node",using stand off missiles flying above and beyond radar coverage,with adedicated wizzo monitoring each and every "threat" as it pops up on his MFD.

And as to how much payload the MKI can carry and the time on target and calculations thereof.

The MKI shouldnt be just thought of as "airspace dominance" per the patch,its more of a battle space dominance thing.

Which other a/c in the IAF can do *all* that the MKI can do at an equivalent cost?

So do you send a flight of Jags,with a limited Pk against a heavily defended(against low level ingress )target on day1 or a MkI which will do the job faster and safer?Which will need less ordnance and effort?Which will,all calculations considered,at the end of the day cost less?

All this arent trivial calculations.Given the depth and scope of IAF involvement(and their required support for the IA) and the demands on their resources,each and every mission will have to be done super fast.Not for us the leisurely Gulf War pounding or gee whiz,Kosovo type setpiece air efforts.

BTW,the F16CG's iirc arent particularly liked.They are moreorless transitionary a/c and are acknowledged by the USAF as poor replacements for the original F4 twin seater dedicated SEAD Wild weasels.

You are imho proceeding under the mistaken assumption ,that SEAD necessarily involves getting down and dirty,is hence an attrition prone effort and thus requires cheap,agile "shooters".Not so.That would be only if you didnt have the Big Stick wielding Gali Ka Goonda who socks you before you can come within range.
In a sense,thats what the MKI is.

Look at it this way ; the conventional SEAD types have a vital role to play.But after some one really mucks up the PAK ADGES and SILLAC in some places.

Regards,
Nitin

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby JCage » 18 Nov 2002 19:14

The best part is the IAF is proceeding as per what Ramana noted in another thread sometime back.Telling what it has and what it can do,keeping the unwashed wary and watchful. :)

Note that this time around,the IAF has admitted that it went around cataloguing each and every one of the paki radars in their n/w.

We aint the USAF yet,but we have made HUGE strides in EW/Elint since the Mid 80's.This drive was sparked off on two levels,imports and indigenous development.Both were successful. :)

Ok off my soapbox.

Regards,
Nitin

Rudra
BRFite
Posts: 599
Joined: 28 May 2001 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Rudra » 18 Nov 2002 21:43

ok class, need to think beeg becoz of force multiplier effect. not just me-too systems.

1. What are the worlds most powerful and comprehensive airborne jamming platforms ? costs ?

2. What is the best SEAD system on fighter ?

3. What is the best ARM and any in future ?

4. What is the most well regarded self-defence automated suite to evade laser-SAMs, IR-SAMs and others not susceptible to electronic measures ?

5. Are truck mounted systems available to disrupt enemy radio comprehensively on a divisional front?
(force 'em to use pigeons, keep some trained hawks in reserve)

6. latest innovations to counter MANPADS & mobile Crotale SAMs when flying at low altitude?

papers are due next week. I will be in cube 10-12noon friday to discuss answers. please hand over scripts to TAs by wednesday noon latest. -10% for late submission every day.

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby JCage » 18 Nov 2002 22:24

Hi Rudra,
Jeez you're asking for too much arent you? :)

Regards,
Nitin

Aditya_M
BRFite
Posts: 166
Joined: 01 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: Blighty
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Aditya_M » 18 Nov 2002 22:25

Originally posted by shankarghosh:
Nitin
just because su-30 can deplow anti radiation missiles or guided bombs does not automatically mean it will ever be use in SEAD missions.
USAF does not use F-15s or will not even dream of using F-22s.
F-16s are the only aircraft used for SEAD missions now mainly the 52nd wing based in Before germany.Sometimes they do use A-10 s but mostly it is F-16s.
F-15s were used in gulf for destrying scuds but that because they were on CAPat that time
and response time from detection to hit had to be very very short.
British use Tornados in low altitude ingress equipped mainly with Laser guided bombs and anti radiation missiles
USAF did also use AH-64 s in some SEAD missions with hellfire missiles but that because
by that time iraqi airforce almost did not exist.
Even F-14s were not used for sead missions
Russians using attack choppers and mig -23s in chechnya.So i think we best use MIG-27S not sukhoi-30s
even better would be to use UACV -it should not be very difficult to develop
A few points - aven the F-16CJ carries external pods, so does the proposed EF-18 Growler, as does the Su-32FN.

Then.... Russia doesnt operate multirole Su-30s, right?

The USAF does use F-15Es for SEAD, they can carry HARMs. Except that in the Gulf they have Tornado ECRs (courtesy the RAF) doing the job as they were dedicated jammers in the first place - a case in your point I admit :)

The F-22 is not meant to be a SEAD plane, as HARMs dont yet fit in an internal bay - I remember trying to calculate if a HARMS could be "shortened" to fit - the Raptor would actually make an awesome speed plane - with everything plus stealth! The F-14, though, cant carry the HARM and only the D which the USN has only a few can carry PGMs.

Russians used 23s and choppers in Chechnya - but did they face any a2a operations there?

Prof. Rudra :)

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 18 Nov 2002 22:46


Kapil
Webmaster BR
Posts: 282
Joined: 16 Jun 2001 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Kapil » 18 Nov 2002 22:49

Hi,
The BR Mumbai Janta seems to be out in full here.I foresee more frustrated waiters as the gang debates the nuances of SEAD over food :-)
Anyways,let me get a leg in before this turns into yet another Nitin Dominance Thread (NDT) :)

The MKI can certainly do what it is asked of,but using the MKI in an Indo Pak conflict in a SEAD role is a bit of an overkill.Especially when you have well trained and tailored Mig23 BNs and Jaguars ready to do the task.And look at the attributes that these aircraft have-
The MiGs are optimised for a Wild Weasel role and there are never enough of them to go around in exercises!
And the Jaguar,well the grinning cat is one of the most formidable SEAD platforms in the world.Difficult to visually acquire,does not announce itself due to a lack of radar,a stable weapons platform at low altitudes and high speeds.
Air defenders just canno get a handle on this bird.

I must agree that taking out C4I is comparatively easy-What is difficult is all those MANPADS floating around with every batallion in the opposing units.

Cheers,
Kapil

Kapil
Webmaster BR
Posts: 282
Joined: 16 Jun 2001 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Kapil » 18 Nov 2002 23:09

Cyrus Bhai,
Didja get my mail?

Kapil

tingudu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 14
Joined: 19 Jul 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby tingudu » 18 Nov 2002 23:14

Hi,
Thanks for the reply guys.
Re the Laser Warning device, I remember seeing a DD prog showing a home developed Laser Warner. Also, there are Laser warning sensors mounted on some Su 27 variants.

Rudra,
1. Probably the Blinder variant, the Prowler, the EF 111 Raven, the Yak 28 Brewer,
The F 4G WW was very good as well. Sadly all except the Prowler retired :)

Hell, that was fast, how about an extra 10 for good handwriting and 5 for finishi9ng so quickly??

Regards,

Kapil
Webmaster BR
Posts: 282
Joined: 16 Jun 2001 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Kapil » 18 Nov 2002 23:48

Cyruso,
At that rr.com address of yours.
Or you can mail me-kapil@bharat-rakshak.com

K

Rudra
BRFite
Posts: 599
Joined: 28 May 2001 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Rudra » 19 Nov 2002 00:08

tingudu et al. please refrain from the unseemly spectable of currying favour with members of teaching staff. all violators will be towed to dean student affairs office for further processing.

the typhoon certainly seems to have a kick-a.. self-defence suit though parts are still in works.

- wingtip radar antennas to look behind and get a good fix on incoming missiles
- towed decoy, chaff, flares used automatically
- probably a brand new system to know which types of hostile radars are illuminating and take measures.
- the system will calculate the best escape route in terms of throttle, direction...symbology comes on HUD telling which way to evade and a audible countdown to the next hard turn.

towed decoy is a must for IAF a/c once it appears PAF/PLAAF are going to field the first model of PRC-AA12.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 19 Nov 2002 00:34

Boris,
check your mail

Himanshu
BRFite
Posts: 191
Joined: 25 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: Mumbai

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Himanshu » 19 Nov 2002 10:20

For tech geeks out here

SPACE & ELECTRONIC WARFARE LEXICON

http://www.sew-lexicon.com/

If you can get one

http://www.janes.com/company/catalog/radar_elec.shtml

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 19 Nov 2002 11:10

If that EB-52H ever makes it into service, it probably could blanket a small country like austria single handedly.

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby JCage » 19 Nov 2002 11:35

The MiGs are optimised for a Wild Weasel role and there are never enough of them to go around in exercises

Righto!Where does that leave us! :)

Tingudu,
Was the Laser Warning Device a vehicular one or an infantry mobile one(compact laser warner).Could you describe the shape,size and any other details you could remember?

Regards,
Nitin

tingudu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 14
Joined: 19 Jul 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby tingudu » 19 Nov 2002 15:02

Hi,
Nitin,
The Laser warner was small, it was a mithai-dabba sized box. It has Laser Warning Receiver written on it. It also had an opaqe bulb/light on it in the middle, nothing else...(sorry, memory isnt what it used to be), probably lights up on receiving a threat.

Regards,

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby JCage » 19 Nov 2002 16:07

Ok.Thats the compact laser warner made by Lastec.Can be clipped onto your belt and worn.Basically infantry application.
I was wondering about the range of vehicle mounted LWR's we are now inducting.

Regards,
Nitin

daulat
BRFite
Posts: 338
Joined: 09 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby daulat » 19 Nov 2002 16:19

i vaguely recall an urban legend about a valiant sikh pilot flying his crippled hunter into a pakistani radar station in a kamikaze martyrdom operation... any truth to the story? or anywhere remotely close to it? perhaps it was in a movie - and we all know what movies do to the truth?!

on a more serious note - the only really serious threat from pakistani forces are MANPADS, which as we have seen from kargil are pretty lethal - it would seem then that the IAF tactic must be to go in high, take out CnI (where n=3 or n=4 depending on how well read you are) and then do PGM attacks against all logistics nodes. once the army is then bottled up, either let them run out of ammo and/or smother them with artillery - dedicate air assets against less dense targets such as convoys and rear echelons

bhart
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 41
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31
Location: New Delhi
Contact:

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby bhart » 19 Nov 2002 17:19

Tingudu, my mistake. I thought it was a Kh25. Anyway, if you have that book, Touching the Sky, there is a photo of ont being handled by ground crew.

Umrao
BRFite
Posts: 547
Joined: 30 May 2001 11:31

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Umrao » 19 Nov 2002 18:18

daulat>> Yes I also grew up listening to that legend as kid. Almost like the story of the movie 'squadron 633'

Rajit
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 34
Joined: 30 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Mumbai

Re: SEAD ops in the IAF

Postby Rajit » 19 Nov 2002 18:39

Is this just me or do i detect a school of thought on BR wrt MKI which is the same as the one which advocates Tendulkar (apologies for cliched analogy)being "held back" for the real important stuff in a one-day game.

SEAD / DEAD is like the 1st 15 overs( more apologies) ...you need to get off to a great start and for that u need your best guns around. If we have invested so much in MKI devpt and are going to maintain a force of 200 odd jets thay better be all over the place.Sending in Mig 27s IMHO instead is a penny wise pound foolish option.....they are CAS aircraft primarily and we will need lots of them around to blunt Pakistani armoured spearheads.We will lose many more MKIs if the SEAD battle doesnt get handled properly.

I would still emphasise a 2 crew aircraft for such missions...the F 16CJ can do an ad hoc job because it's backed by AWACS / JSTARS, stand off jammers and F-15 Eagles on top cover, and it will be phased out of that as well cos current USAF thinking is for UCAV / loitering cruise missiles to carry out SEAD / DEAD in future conflicts.


Return to “Mil-Tech Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests