Religion Thread 2

[Raju]

actually Shiv mazaak mazaak mein, you have hit upon a very valid point. There is a relationship between right-wing of various major denominations and Islamist pakis. And that is a 'sense of entitlement'.

Islamists from across the border and within will say, you hindus need to give us more because you know we ruled you for 7000 yrs and you plebians are obliged to us, your overlords. Similarly their argument in European societies is look how your societies have got corrupted from kafir influence, we Islamists are entitled to these rights because we have deemed to set foot in your countries. We need seperate schools, muslim toilets, muslim prayer rooms, muslim halal food etc. And you better provide us with all these.

If such and such a thing are not provided then we might even get violent, is the implied threat. This is another form of minorityism, albeit more aggressive.

[Murugan]

He said that it is important to build a strong core first, and for that it is important to take an extreme stance because the weak are automatically repelled by that.

what is wished here is strong(?) core secondary or tertiary. Only Reaction! only if you feel you are threatened...

[rajpa]

a long observation on the evolution of religion/hinduism...

according to the zend avesta, the devas are the bad guys and the asuras (ahura mazda) are the good ones... it is just that we indians worship the devas and the iranians used to worship the other clan before their collective memory got wiped out by the onslaught of islamism...

experts on this forum will be able to assert better the spread of hinduism over millenia.. for example, the assyrian deltas (very far from the current indian geography) used to have hurrian kings whose names were tushratta (dasaratha) etc.. essentially sanskritised... around 1500BC etc..

religion ala hinduism, just before the period of rig veda, avesta must, obviously, have been vastly different..

earlier i had asked in one thread whether abraham, brahmin and ibrahim were esssentially the same... they probably are...

i think tracing the history of religion will prove it to be the chronicles of men, kings and clans over millenia... there were mass movements of people, and with them their religious beliefs.. the birth of hinduism could well have been much further from its current thriving location... and would have been a totally different thing...

imo, over time, "hindu" beliefs have diluted to essentially mean just these three things today..

1. sarma dharma samabhava
2. ahimsa
3. satyameva jayate

even non-hindu communities in india more or less seem to believe in these principles.. and all thus gradually getting closer to the concept of india...

there have been revolts within hinduism, over casteism, ritualism, materialism, brahminism... these have made their own inroads into the spiritual nature of man and in his quest for spiritual truth... and thus the birth of buddhism and jainism etc.. even advaita and dvaita, the caravakas...etc etc...

the current angst seems to be over the assimilation of islam/ism and hinduism/india... a new hinduism/islamism to be born...

the assimilation wars between judaism/christianity, judaism/islam are again visible in other geopolitical theaters...

this may not be a clash of civilisations but a clash of collective memories.. and a new evolution of ideas...

[Jaylal]

As a practising (as an unapologetically and unashamedly allopathic) doctor I am exposed every day to "memes" of traditional folk medicine that has been bulldozed over by modern medicine. There is enough "openness" and humility in the medical scientific community to look at these memes to see if there is any truth in them - and there often is something usable, even if currently unproven by the rigid rules of science.

Shiv,

I'd be curious to know your views on Integrative Medicine, integration of "Alternative" medicine and Allopathic medicine. As like you, I would be unashamed to practice Allopathic medicine, though this is more in the short-medium term future for me. It works... but surely, has significant limitations.

If you want, you can email me, as briefly as you would like: Blueraja30 at gmail dot com.

[Murugan]

This has been the unsophisticated modus operandi of RSS supporters while the RSS itself does not look for publicity.

This is not the way to win accolades from anyone. This is the route to digging a deeper grave for the RSS. Yes grave. Not pyre. Say that everyone else has a problem, and claim that the entity you speak of is good.

Where is the question of being good or bad and grave and pyre?

RSS came into existence while a boy was offended by a british teacher in a school.

After britishers gone, the focus shifte to Hindu jagran and a disaster management mechanism in absence of govt machinery.

There would have been no RSS had congress desisted from appeasing certain minorities at the cost of majority!

RSS is still alive. RSS is not going to grave or pyre till congress and leftists and psecs are there. If RSS wants to surivve all swayamsevak will have to pray for long lives of these political ideologies with appeasement as a weapon to gain power and neglect Hindus and insult them.

Ironically, the discussions in BRF will wear away the Hindu Way onlee!

[vsudhir]

Murugan san,

There would have been no RSS had congress desisted from appeasing certain minorities at the cost of majority!

RSS is still alive. RSS is not going to grave or pyre till congress and leftists and psecs are there. If RSS wants to surivve all swayamsevak will have to pray for long lives of these political ideologies with appeasement as a weapon to gain power and neglect Hindus and insult them.

IMVHO, you're getting 'baited' into taking a defensive line. I fell for it too, hook, line and sinker. Apparently, certain POVs are unworthy of serious consideration. Fears and insecurities about the decline and eventual demise of the Hindu way of life (family structure, traditions, ethical structure and mores, everything) are grossly misplaced and perhaps even embarassingly paranoid and hence likely discountable, going by the authoritative narrative nudging this thread into a certain (desirable) direction. Again, FWIW, entirely IMVHO of course.

I for one, would love to be wrong on this one. I hope against hope, there's something in the Hindu collective unconscious (with apologies to Carl Jung) that'll survive the organized onslaught (again, IMHO w.r.t. the alleged onslaught and its organized nature). I keep checking in every now and then hoping to find glimpses of that immunity surface somewhere. Been waiting for Godot I guess. I deeply want to ignore the evidence against a defeat and supplantation outcome like happened in Afghanistan, BD, Indonesia....(I won't go into this again, now). Am yet to see that anywhere, so far, not even in the posts of those who claim fears such as mine are overstated. So far, its been smoke and mirrors, tantalizing hints and misses, arcane dharma theory and righteous put-downs of the aforementioned POVs etc.

Perhaps that will change with some more thread-tinkering like has happened previously. Canning this thread, launching that one....(Oh, be still my beating heart!). Time will tell where this is going. Again, in a more serious vein, I hope I'm wrong about my concerns and fears. I continue to search for answers and for hope.

P.S.
The same disclaimer about not meaning serious offense to anybody holds, puns included. Sadler, I changed 'Abrahamics' (by which I meant follower's of Abraham's G_d, which is what both Js and EJs claim to be) to 'missionaries'. Any further gripes, lemme know.

/Have a nice day, all.

[Vishy_mulay]

If last 1200 years there was onslaught on Hindu psyche and despite we survived, evolved and hold our fort. Why so much insecurity now? Why is that we as followers of Sanatan Dharma feel vulnerable today? Is it another transition time where we have not evolved to counter onslaught in new world? just few questions I am thinking after reading post in this thread.

[vsudhir]

If last 1200 years there was onslaught on Hindu psyche and despite we survived, evolved and hold our fort. Why so much insecurity now? Why is that we as followers of Sanatan Dharma feel vulnerable today? Is it another transition time where we have not evolved to counter onslaught in new world? just few questions I am thinking after reading post in this thread.

Hi Vishy,

My take, FWIW.
The 1200 yrs ofd onslaught you mention has taken its toll. Huge swathes of territory, entire peoples who were very much part of the Indic thought have been irreversibly alienated by conversion to alien religious systems. Conversion by coercion, by propaganda, by sundry lures and also in some cases by genuine conviction are responsible. What remains (much of present day India) may well be subject to the same slow decline. The relentless march continues. Naxals and assorted maoists virtually rule vast swathes of the hinterland and hold sway over Tribal populations. Nepal has fallen to communism. Assam's lower districts as well as some in WB and elsewhere in the country are in Hindu demographic retreat. Why go back centuries to study case studies like Indonesia or Lakshadweep, look just at the last 2 decades and what has happned in J&K and lower Assam. The ways are many, and they may not even be consciously related or organized (I doubt that however) but the net result is the same. Further decline and retreat for what is arguably the longest surviving spiritual way of life on the planet.

You have mentioned that people in the know, Sanghis, pracharaks and the like on the ground in the hot zones, are not as worried about this problem. Its likely they know something I don't. I would very much love to know that Indic civilization is fighting back the alien memes. How and where is this happening? What can we do to strengthen it and contribute? That would be an awesome and constructive line of discussion, IMHO.

Do pls share your wisdom and knowledge in these matters. After all unlike wealth, wisdom doesn't diminish when shared.

P.S.
Hopefully your wisdom sharing won't involve too many mindgames.

/My $0.02. Have a nice day.

[shiv]

Apparently, certain POVs are unworthy of serious consideration. Fears and insecurities about the decline and eventual demise of the Hindu way of life (family structure, traditions, ethical structure and mores, everything) are grossly misplaced and perhaps even embarassingly paranoid and hence likely discountable, going by the authoritative narrative nudging this thread into a certain (desirable) direction. Again, FWIW, entirely IMVHO of course.

You are of course, entitled to your insecurities while I treat myself to the liberties that my thought processes allow me.

Either Hinduism is under threat or it is not:

1) If it is not, there is no problem and anything we do to consolidate, propagate and spread the unique thought process can only be beneficial, not counter productive.

2) If Hinduism is under threat it then becomes essential to "consolidate, propagate and spread the unique thought process ".

Both options point to the same path

My personality and way of thinking tells me that concentrating on what needs to be done in that regard would be more productive than doing a "sahasranama" naming ritual of the thousands of demons that threaten Hinduism.

Hindu thought I believe parallels what i studied in physics. Ultimately humans, the Earth and what we know as familiar will all vanish into (rejoin/merge with) whatever is the ultimate existence in the Universe. That knowledge gives me both comfort and strength to resolve to put aside anxieties and spend every minute (left to me) doing what I think is right.

[SRoy]

Murugan san,

There would have been no RSS had congress desisted from appeasing certain minorities at the cost of majority!

RSS is still alive. RSS is not going to grave or pyre till congress and leftists and psecs are there. If RSS wants to surivve all swayamsevak will have to pray for long lives of these political ideologies with appeasement as a weapon to gain power and neglect Hindus and insult them.

IMVHO, you're getting 'baited' into taking a defensive line. I fell for it too, hook, line and sinker. Apparently, certain POVs are unworthy of serious consideration. Fears and insecurities about the decline and eventual demise of the Hindu way of life (family structure, traditions, ethical structure and mores, everything) are grossly misplaced and perhaps even embarassingly paranoid and hence likely discountable, going by the authoritative narrative nudging this thread into a certain (desirable) direction. Again, FWIW, entirely IMVHO of course.

I for one, would love to be wrong on this one. I hope against hope, there's something in the Hindu collective unconscious (with apologies to Carl Jung) that'll survive the organized onslaught (again, IMHO w.r.t. the alleged onslaught and its organized nature). I keep checking in every now and then hoping to find glimpses of that immunity surface somewhere. Been waiting for Godot I guess. I deeply want to ignore the evidence against a defeat and supplantation outcome like happened in Afghanistan, BD, Indonesia....(I won't go into this again, now). Am yet to see that anywhere, so far, not even in the posts of those who claim fears such as mine are overstated. So far, its been smoke and mirrors, tantalizing hints and misses, arcane dharma theory and righteous put-downs of the aforementioned POVs etc.

Perhaps that will change with some more thread-tinkering like has happened previously. Canning this thread, launching that one....(Oh, be still my beating heart!). Time will tell where this is going. Again, in a more serious vein, I hope I'm wrong about my concerns and fears. I continue to search for answers and for hope.

P.S.
The same disclaimer about not meaning serious offense to anybody holds, puns included. Sadler, I changed 'Abrahamics' (by which I meant follower's of Abraham's G_d, which is what both Js and EJs claim to be) to 'missionaries'. Any further gripes, lemme know.

/Have a nice day, all.

Sudhir,

If I'm reading it correct, Shiv is not taking a "there is no threat, Hinduism is fine" hardline.

Shiv correct me if I'm wrong.

The problem is our best bets like RSS are inadequate, goalless and trapped in a bygone era. They cannot even define the problem in concrete terms leave alone the solution.

They were a reaction to the political atmosphere of the first half of 20th century. They need to move beyond that. I think we understand the historical realities of last 1200 years. But, we cannot depend on RSS types organizations to wake up and turn around. We maybe too late.

There is lot to be done. I'll elaborate in my next post.

[Raju]

The problem is our best bets like RSS are inadequate, goalless and trapped in a bygone era. They cannot even define the problem in concrete terms leave alone the solution.

[shaardula]

is there somevalue in understanding the contrast between sankara's impact vidyaaranya's impact?

is there somevalue in understanding nanak and basavanna. - egalitarian movements that had a lot of impact during a period but once they a attained a critical mass they have become ossified. why does this happen? as pointed out by many, is religion really a personality driven organization that works very well as long as they have good leaders and then the organization loses all imagination and gets stuck in some FAQ, which eventually becomes the proverbial bible.

what are leadership models that will have say, atleast a 200-300 fertile period as opposed to 1 generation? what should be its mandate? and what should be its organization? what are the overarching across the sects issues that can use some sort of centrality?

[Arun_S]

Gurudev, Rg-Veda is loaded with deities (Devas). Just because vedics didn't have temples and statues, and had only fire-rituals, doesn't mean that they didn't have Gods/Goddesses.

Indra, Varuna, Aryama, Agni, Usha, Prajapati, Yama, Ashwini, Rudra, Vishnu, Medha, Lakshmi, Saraswati, Devi and many others are there in the Rgveda. So, proliferation of the deities happened right at the first step IMHO.

if we have done with knowing what is religion by deifintion, here are definition of deva or devata outta many deinition of deva:

the illuminated one

the divine one

one gives (dadati iti dev, this may not be correct!)

but this is:

In the Nirukta, Yaskacharya has defined the word 'deva' as follows: 'A deva is one who gives gifts ...

etc

The vedas found these 33 devas rudras, adityas, prajapati, indra, sun, moon, etc who give (something) or which are divine which humans got as gift without asking for.

Nakshatra give direction, sun gives life, moon etc according to their imagination.

Vedas, initially, being grateful to nature, sang suktas praising these natural forces and labelling them. Wealth=Lakshmi, Vidya=Saraswati, Technology=Prajapati (Vishwakarma) outta being grateful to them.
Few Suktas are : Sri Suktam, Purush sukta, Surya Sukta, Usha Sukta, .Saraswati Suktam, Medha Suktam, Agni Suktam etc worshipping and praising nature - pagans!

Perhaps there were no statues (but imaginations) as they used to worship Agni Devta, the fire! Yagnas were the daily rituals. Till today, many agnihotris keep the fire burning at their homes!

As an avid Numimatist, I can certainly tell you that the Imaginary Gods got images on Coins in the time of Kushanas (the invaders!) in India.

They first depicted devi ardoksho (Lakshmi(?)), Shiva on Nandi and few more 'gods' and even image of Lord Buddha on their gold coins.

Kushanas installed out huge and beautiful statues of gods at Purushpur (Peshawar) their western capital and at Mathura (Western Capital?)

Simultaneously, Guptas impressed their coins with images ofLaxmi, Kartikeya,Durga etc.

Krishna Devaraya had iamges Lord Venkateshwareengraved on their coins.

Rajput kings continue engraving images of "Laxmi" on their coins

*** ... . . . . [/url]

In the last BR-Bay Area meeting I showed many types of East India Company coins minted in 1818 that has Ram Durbar (Shri Ram, Sita, Laxman), Hanuman, Om, other "Such Bolo, Poora Toulo)), and India has greater percentage of Muslims and they had no problem with images of Hindu gods and icons on the legal tender.

I will post photos of those coins later in the day.

[RajeshG]

Johannji

http://www.kimsoft.com/1997/xhist.htm

Is this link accurate in portraying how xtianity spread in korea ?

[Adrija]

imo, over time, "hindu" beliefs have diluted to essentially mean just these three things today..

1. sarma dharma samabhava
2. ahimsa
3. satyameva jayate

These are IMHO not core things to SD, particulary Ahimsa........ if I have to take a stab, it would be Nishkaam Karma

[vsudhir]

My personality and way of thinking tells me that concentrating on what needs to be done in that regard would be more productive than doing a "sahasranama" naming ritual of the thousands of demons that threaten Hinduism.

Fair enough.
That said, there is merit in attempting to define the nature of the problem. But documenting the nature of the problem, the modus operandi of the spread of missionary activity etc as was done in now canned threads wasn't entirely meaningless. IMVHO of course. Sahasra namas are ritual. If the demon-naming game was becoming just another ritual, a wake-up call was needed.......

You are of course, entitled to your insecurities while I treat myself to the liberties that my thought processes allow me.

Perhaps, it would do well to articulate the stakes. Its not just aboutersonal liberties and free thinking - yours or mine. Its about these liberties for our grandchildren and their grandchildren after them. Stretch it further, its for the rights of young people to know music, laughter and love. (Sounds corny, eh? Millions upon millions from Afghanistan to Indonesia have been denied the right to a conscience).

So thanks for recognising my right to my concerns (insecurities, paranoia whatever). And yes, congratulations on your thought processes, sir. It is for the survival of such thought processes into the far future that this fight is all about. FWIW, you're entitled to disagree and I understand that totally.

Hindu thought I believe parallels what i studied in physics. Ultimately humans, the Earth and what we know as familiar will all vanish into (rejoin/merge with) whatever is the ultimate existence in the Universe. That knowledge gives me both comfort and strength to resolve to put aside anxieties and spend every minute (left to me) doing what I think is right.

If it is about doing something, I agree. Action is better than words.
Anyways, enough of my words now.
Have a nice day.

[SaiK]

The theory problems & solutions in abstractions of Hindu core evolved concepts are inversely proportional to the practice and implementation, where applied Hinduism faces specialization issues, that needs lot of handles.

We can learn, perhaps we already know.. but get lost in just theories and everything goes into mind-full happiness and mind-less void to those who don't theorize, but just want to do something and live happily.

Of course, we need to touch upon other aspects of Indianized democracy, where we have let many wrongs things in society to creep up. If we ensure, that these are solved, we have solved many things for the masses.

The real mass does not care about Religion at all. They need a proper corruption less setup for complete freedom. Freedom from corruption, from organizational and institutionalized social crimes, infrastructure, education, and the whole nine yards of living.

We must remember Religion can give the solid foundation for such a happy society., if the masses are illiterate. The more literate, the mass become, the less influence Religion imparts on the masses.

There may be issues and problems where we need to prop up. It could be an evolved correction.

[svinayak]

If last 1200 years there was onslaught on Hindu psyche and despite we survived, evolved and hold our fort. Why so much insecurity now? Why is that we as followers of Sanatan Dharma feel vulnerable today? Is it another transition time where we have not evolved to counter onslaught in new world? just few questions I am thinking after reading post in this thread.

Now it is the political identity which is under pressure. The natural political representation for the Hindus have been usurped by political parties claiming to do good for the entire country. The parties have won claiming to protect the country from Hindus!
This political awareness is still low in the Hindu society.

The thread has not even started discussing the political aspect and implication of Hindu political center in geopolitics. Hence you see confusion in the posts here. Here there is comparison of the religion with status of the governance and corruption.

[shiv]

If I'm reading it correct, Shiv is not taking a "there is no threat, Hinduism is fine" hardline..

You are correct.

I see it as follows.

If I live on a tree and if there is talk that the branch I live on may fall, I have a number of choices about what to do in the days ahead

1) I can say "balls this branch has survived 5000 years and will not fall"
2) I can say The branch is sure to fall and feel sad
3) I can start weighing reasons as to why it might fall (termites, weather) versus why it might not fall (I mistook dust for termites)
4) I can start taking action on the presumption that it might fall while I leave the speculation about whether it will fall of not for later.

By following option number 4, I am covering myself against the worst possible eventuality.

The same is true for anxieties and doubts regarding Hinduism. Assume the worst and start planning for that. The consequences of taking a less serious view are too grave to be considered.

Start thinking about what needs to be done to keep the thought processes alive, and leave the theory about whether it is going to fall and what the specific threats are currently to a later date.

If my house is attacked at night there is no point in thinking whether the attackers are burglars, pakis or naxalites. I have to save what is valuable - perhaps lives first.

For that we have to know what is valuable.

What is valuable in Hinduism?

i see lots of laments about threats, but no sign of anyone thinking of how to counter the threats. I see people expressing both doubts about Hinduisms survival as well as other expressing confidence about its immorality.

If Hinduism is under threat as it probably is compounded by Hindu propensity to lament and not act, I believe that attention needs to be paid to what specifically needs protection and how to achieve that protection.

Hindu thought processes and knowledge are no threat against any other religion. Fundamentalists of Christianity and Islam do not, and cannot understand this. They see a threat from anything that the book does not say and will seek to erase that knowledge by dumbing down.

What can YOU do to preserve what needs preservation. What are you doing now What can you resolve to do in future?

[Johann]

V Sudhir,

I havent forgotten your reply! It will just be a day or two before I have the time to type up a serious answer to a serious question.

The short answer is that in my view

- Dharmic faiths have already passed the low point and are in a kind of slow rebound. The Indian nation-state is far stronger than anything that the Qasims, Ghoris and Ghaznis ever had to face.

- The era of absolute monarchy when some Ashoka, Constantine or a Malaccan Raja convert to Christianity, Buddhism or Islam and drag all their subjects with them is over.

- It is Islamic world that is in serious trouble

- Christianity of every flavour is nowhere as good at converting and keeping people from dharmic streams as Islam

- evangelical Christianity must be content to stay on the merry go round of converting, losing and reconverting individuals from the same families over and over again at huge cost even as Evangelical financial base loses its position of dominance WRT Hinduism and Buddhism. I find the reconstruction of Nalanda university by an East Asian consortium, Art of Living's success, etc exciting signs of things to come.

BTW I dont think its un-natural to fear - just that one can not be totally focussed on worst case scenarios.

[Vishy_mulay]

Hi Sudhir,
Sorry for delayed response as I was busy with work. I completely agree with your point that Sanatan Dharam was brutalized and still faces challenges. But what I was trying to point was that unlike other "Pagan" Greek, Roman, Persian and Buddhist civilizations (south east asia), Indic civilization survived. Now before someone questions what civilizational survival has to do with Dharma?, I ask, is it possible to separate Indic civilization and Sanatan Dharma from each other. I know this point has been ponder a lot but Hindutva is not religion as perceived by western theologians, its a way of life and you are in charge of it. Acharya pointed out something very important and that is in India pseudo secularist created a environment in which majority people feel uneasy about their identity. On one hand it is this identity which made India a plural society and on other hand people have been told that this identity is dangerous for survival of plural India. The leftist educational mafia knows very well that the revolution is not going to come to India as long as this "Vasudev Kutumbhakum" Hindu civilization survives and hence systematic defamation of it to harvest the fresh minds for revolution. I am very worried about Naxals situation in India as history has shown that leftist movements are the most barbaric and inhumane revolutions ever. The crude joke is that leftist movements bring end to injustice as no one survives the revolution and hence no inadequate distribution.
Coming to Sangh, as I said earlier I am very small person and I don't know everything about the working of Sangh. The interactions I had with few stalwarts suggested that Sangh thinkers are more worried about the inner decay of Hindu society than the external threats. If you read recent chintan meeting minutes, Mohan Bhagwat said that the main problem is the decay in Hindu society which allows others to take advantage. Now if Sangh decides to attack the inner decay and thinks that if we make Hindu society strong by targeting issues that divide us, is it a wrong approach? Wherever Sangh felt that they have to counter either EJs or Ism they have intervene. Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram and Ekal vidyalaya are fine examples of that. Sangh has their share of right wing extremist and they do bring more harm. my 2 paisa.

[Prem]

If last 1200 years there was onslaught on Hindu psyche and despite we survived, evolved and hold our fort. Why so much insecurity now? Why is that we as followers of Sanatan Dharma feel vulnerable today? Is it another transition time where we have not evolved to counter onslaught in new world? just few questions I am thinking after reading post in this thread.

Now it is the political identity which is under pressure. The natural political representation for the Hindus have been usurped by political parties claiming to do good for the entire country. The parties have won claiming to protect the country from Hindus!
This political awareness is still low in the Hindu society.

The thread has not even started discussing the political aspect and implication of Hindu political center in geopolitics. Hence you see confusion in the posts here. Here there is comparison of the religion with status of the governance and corruption.

Tools of agression and destruction are different in current era, so is the nature of threat and on top of this Hindus right now have no political centre to take the leadership role. This is a serious shortcoming and Psuedos, leftist, english media are trying best to keep it this way by using various tools .

[SRoy]

Vishy,

Good post. External threats are meaningless, if a community is still rooted in its value system. Sangh thinkers are right in this regard. They maybe be right in their beliefs that the internal decay is to be taken care of first.

But, is it not possible that they open a parallel track to counter the external threats? We must remember that the external threats are always present irrespective of our inherent strengths.

[svinayak]

Acharya pointed out something very important and that is in India pseudo secularist created a environment in which majority people feel uneasy about their identity. On one hand it is this identity which made India a plural society and on other hand people have been told that this identity is dangerous for survival of plural India. The leftist educational mafia knows very well that the revolution is not going to come to India as long as this "Vasudev Kutumbhakum" Hindu civilization survives and hence systematic defamation of it to harvest the fresh minds for revolution.

It has taken them 50 years to achieve this social engineering and they are confident that they can transform the country into an image they have planned.

People have been told that this identity is dangerous for survival of plural India.
This is a requirement for EJ and outside power centers. Because this identity makes them harder to change the political loyalty through conversion ( which is the real reason for conversion).
So the leftist are really the proxy for the EJ and other political center.

Good to read on this subject Battle for the Mind: A Physiology of Conversion and Brainwashing

Sargant spells out and illustrates the basic techniques used by evangelists, psychiatrists, and brain-washers to disperse the patterns of belief and behavior already established in the minds of their hearers, and to substitute new patterns for them.

[Vishy_mulay]

For those who have no idea how Sangh works and RSS stand on caste system, this might be a good read.
http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/mms/index.html
Shiv I don't know whether it belong here. If you think its inappropriate please remove it.

[vsudhir]

Vishy, Johann, Shiv,
Thanks for your responses, gents. Shall reply later. Have a nice day.

[shaardula]

this underestimation of the evangelical christian arm is dangerous. one has to only visit villages in their fav states and see the alarming number of 'churches' that have come up to gauge the impact. this type reach and impact even islam does not have.

it is significant that Tirupathi has been targeted. most dangerously it shows organization and scant respect.

IMO, the one and only issue is that of egalitarian values. theology, belief systems, philosophy etc., are not the issue. all said and done there is nothing in any of these systems that even compares to naasadiya, for example.

can this be done?
i have known temples mediated by non traditional priests that have high patronage amongst all castes. just get all the mathas to accept that there exist alternative interpretations to purusha - that would be a signficant dose of rejuvenation to hinduism.

at the very minimal enforce equal oppurtunity in the temples.

egalitarian values. egalitarian values. egalitarian values.

[Vishy_mulay]

Shaardula, which state you visited? I was posted as a MO near Parbhani in MH (semi tribal). Nagar and Parbhani districts are the hot spot for EJs for last 100 years. Lots of big churches and lots of fun fare but I was surprised when I saw Sunday masses were attended by very few people . Now it was 7 years back. Dont know the current situation. MH actually had a movement during british raj of many brahmins converting to Christianity (Rev Tilak, a noted writer in Marathi being one, no relation to Lokmanya Tilak) but it went no where. The chitpawan bramhins were targeted to bring masses to EJ fold. Was a utter failure.
Added later: Has anyone read this?
http://www.vishalmangalwadi.com/works_experiment.php
http://www.vishalmangalwadi.com/files/i ... riment.pdf

[Kakkaji]

Shiv:

I agree with you that RSS has a massive image problem, and they seem to have done little about it.

I don't know much about their inner workings but I have heard that there are some generational issues. The people at the top are the ones who have spent all their lives in the 'defensive' mode vis-a-vis the media. The next generation may be less defensive and more confident. The current RSS Chief (Sudarshan) is 70+ and said to be quite rigid in his views. His likely successor (Mohan Bhagwat) is 50+ and said to be willing to experiment with new ways of functioning. The RSS today seems to be behind the times, but the RSS 10 years from now may be quite different and much more PR savvy. Of course this is just speculation and wishful thinking on my part.

By the way, as far as confronting the weaknesses in Hindu society is concerned, the RSS, and many other reformist Hindu organizations, have taken the lead not waiting for any Govt. patronage. A couple of years ago, an RSS bigwig had said publicly that "the largest percentage of inter-caste marriages are found among RSS-influenced families". Nobody challenged that statement, but it was not publicized in the media either. Have you heard of it? Here is a link:

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~dludden/RSS%2 ... lomacy.htm

[quote]To a question about the RSS position on caste, he (official spokesman Ram Madhav) said, “caste should go,â€

[SaiK]

good thoughts there.. one SD caste is sure to chase even the super power firangi SD that is now totally evanjalized.

[Vishy_mulay]

We pride ourselves upon our spiritual tradition. But how are we actually living? What are our daily samskars? Is there any place for God in all our daily routine? Is there at least some place in our homes where we can contemplate upon Him? Once an acquaintance of mine invited me to visit his newly built house. It was a well-furnished and in every sense a ‘modern’ house. When he had finished showing me its special features, I just asked him, "Well, where is the devagriha? Have you no family deity, which your forefathers had worshipped and handed down to you?" My question came as a surprise to him. He replied apologetically, "Yes, yes, but I had forgotten all about it". After a few months, when I had gone to that place again, he specially invited me to his house saying that he had carried out my suggestion. I went there. He showed me a small almirah constructed in the triangular space under the staircase and all the chappals and shoes – quite a number of them because their ‘standard of life’ was quite high! – of the family members neatly arranged over that almirah! He said with a sense of gratification, " I have just constructed this and kept our family-god here". I was horrified to see that. I only remarked, "Why not keep these chappals inside and worship them instead of defiling the deity?" Such is our ‘modern progressive’ Hindu life!

Let us not forget that a Sri Rama, a Shivaji or a Vivekananda was not a product of this type of ‘modernism’. Shivaji was inspired by the ideals enshrined in a Ramayana and Mahabharata. It was his supreme devotion to our Hindu way of life coupled with his unparalleled organisational acumen which gave it a practical dynamic form, that made him a force which changed the entire course of our history. Right from the Vedic seers down to Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Ramatirtha and such other stalwarts of the modern age, all have left the impress of their inspiring personality on our people by their life of positive love and realisation of our age-old ideals. They could stand erect in spite of all adverse forces, speak to the world in challenging tones. To what a pitiable condition we, their children, have descended! We do not know even the a,b,c of the ideals which moved and moulded those heroic souls.

I know a young man who had gone to a foreign land on Government scholarship. There he was confronted with a number of queries by his friends and strangers about atma, pranayama, Gita and so many other Hindu ideas and ways of life. This young man was blissfully ignorant of all those things. He wrote to me about his difficulty. But what could I do? Could I give him postal training in yogabhyasa, in samadhi, in pranayama and in all such things? How humiliating, it is, that our so-called educated young men of this land do not have the least scent of the fundamentals of our own philosophy – let alone their realising them in full!

The internal problems and decay of Hindu society as penned by Guruji
http://www.hindubooks.org/bot/p1-ch7.htm

[shiv]

the main problem is the decay in Hindu society

I see fears of decay in Hindu society being expressed by many.

In truth Hindu society is changing faster than it has done in living memory. Large percentages of Hindus are more educated and wealthy than they used to be. In the span of 30 years I have seen Ganesh Chaturthi, Dussera and Diwali metamorphosing from three separate events to one continuous celebration in which the decorations and lights put up for the first (Ganesh) never come down for three or four months. Hindu practices are more active and open than they used to be, but I am not sure how deep the culture goes - because these "signs" are being displayed by the current empowered generation (educated between 1950 and 1990). No sign of what is happening with the toddlers.

"Knowledge" of Hindu culture and society was traditionally handed down in all groups from elders, from folk music/arts and performing groups that based their plays on the major Hindu epics and other stories - all of which play a role in teaching Indians about morality, fortitude in adversity, good and evil.

But these drama/folk music groups are dying out under the onslaught of television. However, Bollywood and Indian cinema may have played a stellar role in both maintaining and destroying Indian culture. On balance I believe Bollywood has been more positive rather than negative.

The biggest filmi icons who go on to get popular political support in India have tended to be people who have played roles from Hindu epics or mimicked the good vs evil morality taken from those epics.

Hindu society is being moved away from tradition by wealth and communication, but their glue is the timeless values instilled by commonly shared stories from the epics.

The Ramayana and the Mahabharata are key texts/stories that underscore the behavioural practices and social norms that are followed in India.

Is Hindu society actively ensuring that their children get exposure to the knowledge carried in these stories or is it being left to random forces - imagining that the knowledge will somehow get to the children? I believe I am seeing more of latter than former.

It is essential to

1) Retain the folk arts groups and where that is not possible
2) Replace them with technologically advanced material to spread stories based on the Ramayana and Mahabharata.

CDs
DVDs
Computer games based on these epics
Not to forget TV

As an aside, Is anyone putting scenes/clips from the Ramayana/Mahabharata on Youtube? I see more Rap than any of that.

[Vishy_mulay]

Shiv its not only our traditions but our history also needs reintroduction. How many Indians from new generations know about RajRaja? The king who established an empire which spread to whole south east asia. Who constructed temples which still inspire everyone.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... s+of+india
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajaraja_Chola_I

[saumitra_j]

I think one of the answers for all the questions being raised in this tread is to bring back Amar Chitra Katha/Chandamama type comics - I find it apalling that most young kids I know have never heard of these

One of the best rendition of Ramayan that I have seen was the cartoon VCD that was created by some Japanese production house - we need more of these to spread awareness about India and its culture.

[sanjaykumar]

Sargant spells out and illustrates the basic techniques used by evangelists, psychiatrists, and brain-washers to disperse the patterns of belief and behavior already established in the minds of their hearers, and to substitute new patterns for them.


A classic-must read for all.

[rocky]

Vishy, interesting to know of your Parbhani connection. My aunt lives in Palsi, a tiny village near Hingoli in Parbhani. I gather that the evangelicals are in full swing in Naxal and tribal areas, esp Bhandara, Gadchiroli, and obviously Rayalseema, Telangana, etc.

Saumitra, if you're startled by what you saw in Pune, then here's another shocking piece of news. I personally know of (still) serving Christian officers of the Indian Army, Navy and Air Force in Pune who dole out additional cash and bonus benefits to their Hindu maid servants to convert to Christianity.

I'm not very worried about rural India, it's the uber-uneducated and extremely poor ones that are going to get converted by evangelicals. Many Muslims also converted from Hinduism for monetary benefits - afterall the mosque provides one of the best social welfare programmes of it's kind in the world. There is a reason why they can sustain several children and wives despite not earning a single paisa.

[Vishy_mulay]

Hi Rocky,
I was posted in Chapad near Pathri which was pain to reach via road. I didnt venture out much (was a poor MO who could not afford to buy a bike ) hence dont know much about surrounding. Interestingly for a small village of 20000 population, it had 2 churches and a mission hospital. The mission hospital "free treatment" was more targeted for saving souls rather than lives.

[SRoy]

Saumitra, if you're startled by what you saw in Pune, then here's another shocking piece of news. I personally know of (still) serving Christian officers of the Indian Army, Navy and Air Force in Pune who dole out additional cash and bonus benefits to their Hindu maid servants to convert to Christianity.

rocky,

I believe it should not be shocking for many of us yet. But I have reasons for some hope.

I'll share an incident. I'll not divulge the names, locations and exact year in question.

It so happened that one Christian Air Commodore was posted to an IAF station as the AOC. One fine day he decided that a major Hindu festival that is celeberated by servicemen in the IAF stations all over India will not be permitted in his station. The deed was done.

Unfortunately, it was too late by the time Air HQ got to know of it. Anyway they followed it up with appropriate procedures and the chap was posted to a desk job in the HQ Maintenance Command.

At one time the incident came as a shock to me. But after following the EJ thread I'm trying to visualize a larger picture.

[bala]

I saw this guest on Steven Colbert Show.. A beautiful Somalian woman of courage. Born a muslim but her inquiry into the Koran finally led her to abandon the Islamic faith and become atheist (ha, not Agnostic for Alok_N!).

Ayaan Hirsi Ali author of book Infidel. As a young woman, she escaped from her Somali family while en route to an arranged marriage in Canada, made her way to Holland, learned Dutch, attended college and eventually won a seat in the Dutch parliament. Along the way, she also made an intellectual journey — beautifully described in her new book, “Infidelâ€

[hanumadu]

i see lots of laments about threats, but no sign of anyone thinking of how to counter the threats. I see people expressing both doubts about Hinduisms survival as well as other expressing confidence about its immorality.

Some of the efforts that are being made to preserve the Hindu thought


http://hinduism.about.com/cs/vedasvedan ... 82503a.htm

Currently, there are 30 students, including part-timers, from different parts of India studying the Rig Veda and Atharva Veda

under the tutelage of four Vedic scholars.

http://www.gitapress.org/Vedic_school.htm

The Vedic school is based upon the original Hindu Gurukul system of learning, wherein young brahmacharis (students) stay with

the Guru (teacher) and learn the scriptures. Presently, around 100 brahmacharis stay in the Brahmacharya Ashram. They are

taught parts of the Vedas, Sanskrit, Hindi, English and modern secular subjects. Presently, a nominal monthly fee of Rs.300 is

charged for boarding, lodging, education, clothes and medicine.

A free Ayurvedic dispensary is also run at Churu.

http://www.kailasashram.com/

http://www.vedamantram.com/pathashala.htm

Mission of the Peetham

Enroll limited students and teach them vedas and shAstras (along with their commentaries and meanings).

Prepare the students for competitive exams held by reputed vedic councils.

Teach conversational skills in Telugu, Tamil, Kannada, English, and Hindi, while the official language of communication in

the Gurukulam will be samskritam.

Teach haTha yOga , mathematics, astrology and vAstu in addition to other subjects on the physical world (geography,

history, physical sciences, and computer skills).

Provide free boarding for students.

Maintain a gOshAla (place for cows).

Recruit eminent vedic scholars to live in the gurukulam.

Pay about Rs.10,000/- per month to at least four such vedic gurus.

Present Rs. 1 lakh as a startup package for each graduating student who successfully finishes any veda.

To tailor short courses on vedic recitation for the NRIs during the summer and winter breaks and provide accommodation in

the gurukulam allowing audio/video recording of the classes.

http://www.muktabodha.org/newsletters/autumn-06.html

Muktabodha’s traditional Vedic school, the Swami Muktananda Vedashala, which is located in Satara, in the Indian State of

Maharashtra, is actively engaged in the preservation efforts that UNESCO seeks to encourage through this declaration. The

school is revitalizing the study of what is known as the Hiranyakeshi branch of the Taittiriya Krishna Yajur Veda. In a

recently published study, it has been identified as one of the ten most endangered sub-branches of the Veda. This branch is

characterized by exceptionally pure and precise pronunciation of the mantras. This tradition has suffered a rapid decline in

the past 50 years due to economic and political conditions; in earlier times, the tradition had maintained a strong presence in

the coastal regions of Maharashtra. Today, Muktabodha’s vedashala is the only remaining school where this branch of Vedic

recitation and ritual is taught.