Religion Thread 3

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 22 Mar 2007 22:47

SDRE = short-dark-rice-eating

Oh Good Grief!

I've met plenty of yindoos about as tall as I am. Yeah they were raised in the US and probably ate pizza and drank milkshakes and a few of them were bigger than I am.

Abhijit · Post by **Abhijit** » 22 Mar 2007 22:47

Did Hitler explicitly abdicate Christianity ? Did he never go to Church?
http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler's_Pope

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Mar 2007 22:48

Hitler's Christianity

To deny the influence of Christianity on Hitler and its role in World War II, means that you must ignore history and forever bar yourself from understanding the source of German anti-Semitism and how the WWII atrocities occurred.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Mar 2007 22:50

The stories of occult stuff is to disassociate Hitler's actions from his religion. Sort of spin to save the religion.

There is a link some where of his notes on Disraeli etc written prior to his ascent as a leader. The comment was on Disraeli's biography of Lord Bentnick.

Added later:
Found the link:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerBible.htm

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 22 Mar 2007 22:52

The stories of occult stuff is to disassociate Hitler's actions from his religion. Sort of spin to save the religion.

No it was not. The pope at that time believed that Hitler would attack Vatican and kill him.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 22 Mar 2007 22:54

Abhijit wrote:Did Hitler explicitly abdicate Christianity ? Did he never go to Church?
http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler's_Pope

Well, you got me on that one. I must say I never read that Hitler talked about Christ in any of speeches. I did read that he and his cronies were big in the occult and wierd mythology but I never heard of him proclaiming God's work.

There has been a history of Christian pograms against Jews so it was certainly not a new thing when he practiced it. I just never had the impression that he was a Church going, bible believeing Christian as an adult.

Kumar · Post by **Kumar** » 22 Mar 2007 22:54

Raju wrote:I don't have time to develop upon this theory but going by some notes that I read and by Hitler's actions it seems he subscribed to the theory that the human race had two distinct competing influences. One from a particular group of divinities and the rest from another.

One competing influence was the Hindu/Tibetan divinities or the pantheon, Vishnu etc and the other ones based from the Orion/Naga/Luciferian types. These two groups created/manipulated humans to their own image on earth. And Hitler sided with the former. But he lost the upperhand morally when he indulged in violence and tried to gain back what he lost through occult and Tibetan Buddhists.

Raju,

Since we are liberally theorizing in the hot air here, let me add a tidbit.

Sri Aurobindo was vehemently opposed to Hitler, and wanted India to side with the British in the war in a tactical way to vanquish a bigger evil. Mother (Mira Alfassa) mentioned somewhere that Hitler was under the influence of a luminous-being and was inspired in his evil acts through that. Given Sri Aurobindo's deep connections with Krishna and hence Vishnu, your theory above regarding Hitler and Hindu/Budhist divinities has a big challenge.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Mar 2007 22:54

Raju wrote: No it was not. The pope at that time believed that Hitler would attack Vatican and kill him.

Then why did the Vatican collaborate against the Jews?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 22 Mar 2007 22:55

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vril

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 22 Mar 2007 22:58

Kumar wrote:
Since we are liberally theorizing in the hot air here, let me add a tidbit.

Sri Aurobindo was vehemently opposed to Hitler, and wanted India to side with the British in the war in a tactical way to vanquish a bigger evil. Mother (Mira Alfassa) mentioned somewhere that Hitler was under the influence of a luminous-being and was inspired in his evil acts through that. Given Sri Aurobindo's deep connections with Krishna and hence Vishnu, your theory above regarding Hitler and Hindu/Budhist divinities has a big challenge.

he got lost somewhere in the way, and source of his war-funding were the same entities he wanted to keep away from...

S.Valkan · Post by **S.Valkan** » 22 Mar 2007 23:01

Kumar wrote:But I don't want the "secular" state of India playing a childish pretend-game to appease the sentiments of christian-majority countries.

No doubt, in an ideal scheme of things.

But it's the practical side of the equation that one must be aware of.

A lot of problems that Hinduism faces wrt practitioners of christianity in western countries, is rooted in a "superiority complex" within christianity that goes unchallenged. People of whole countries and whole generations can get their facts twisted which in the long term is detrimental not only for hinduism but for a genuine inter-religious understanding.

Why is hinduism viewed and portrayed so negatively in the west? In many european countries hinduism is not even recognised as a religion. I think because such unjustified complexes are allowed to stand unchallenged.

You are perhaps forgetting the complex layers involved in the process.

Firstly, the SDRE folks in India - along with the Blacks of Africa - have been militarily, politically, economically and technologically subjugated by the BH-BE Nordic folks for the last few centuries. It is natural that the Indians have historically been viewed with prejudice as uncivilised barbarians and White Man's burden, and therefore worthy of little more than being patronised like children.

That's why the uprorar, the castigation when India conducted PNE in 1974, when no such uproar would take place if Sweden did it.

The Japanese ( and the Chinese ) have given the West a bloody nose militarily ( and now economically and technologically as well ), and have not been colonized. Thus they, and their culture, gained the grudging admiration of the Western world.

India's ascent as a military, economic, technological and political superpower in the coming decades will slowly change perceptions about India, Indian culture and religion.

Soft power bolstered by hard power has a greater effect.

As for the question why Hinduism is made fun of in the West is because of a very simple reason,- Paulism, which goes by the name of Christianity these days.

Paul said something to the effect "We are no longer children, we should give up our childish ways".

Mind you, it was not Jesus ( "I came not to destroy but to fulfill" ), but Paul.

Now, to an average European, a blue-skinned four-armed discus-mace-lotu-conch wielding anthropomorphic wierdo with a wife and sleeping on a thousand-headed snake, an elephant-headed rotund man/creature is childish imagination.

Add to that the explosive thought that such children are incompetent, nincompoops that are the dregs of human civilisation ( cultivated by the experience of the last few centuries, and of the reports of inhuman "pagan" rituals and caste system ), and you get the notion why this religion finds hardly any respect.

Lofty thoughts like Vedanta was unheard of, until recently.

You get the drift. Let's not confuse that with India's diplomatic nuances.

So instead of justifying why it may be geopolitically convenient to join in the pretend-game that Vatican is a real country, may be we should also think of geopolitical implications of not challenging such complexes and their ill-effects on perpetuating western people's prejudices against hinduism.

The finesse of Ju-Jit-su lies in deflecting the zeal of the opponent, and using that momentum of the opponent to floor it.

Combating by locking horns like goats ( challenging them in fisticuffs ) get you no accolades.

Hinduism and Buddhism are above such petty challenges from village idiots.

Only when the challenge is intellectual - and this time it won't be from Samkhya-Vaisheshika, but from modern science - does Hinduism and Buddhism shine through their dialectical expertise.

No point challenging irrational people and their "my way or the highway" beliefs which can't be defended logically, and whose legs are being cut down to size by Science every passing day.

Adrija · Post by **Adrija** » 22 Mar 2007 23:02

Arun_S, the heaven/ hell of Christian belief is quite different from Swarg/ Narak in SD..... lots of differences actually, but the main one is that souls in Christianity are judged and assigned to eternal heaven/ hell (as the case may be) by God, whereas these are transient states in the cycle of rebirth in SD thought, based on one's actions.

So in short, SDFs do not believe in Heaven/ hell, and neither do they believe in the judging God (another main point of difference)

My 2 paise to clarify

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 22 Mar 2007 23:09

souls in Christianity are judged and assigned to eternal heaven/ hell (as the case may be) by God, whereas these are transient states in the cycle of rebirth in SD thought, based on one's actions.

it is possible that Christians have finished with all transitions and are a group ready to be shunted to emptyspace. They probably are indeed a group who are being given a 'final opportunity'.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Mar 2007 23:12

Abhijit wrote:Did Hitler explicitly abdicate Christianity ? Did he never go to Church?
http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

You do realise that Hitler twisted the words of the Bible to suit his own agenda? In that senese, he ain't no different than the Evanjehadist.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 22 Mar 2007 23:16

Acharya wrote:Hitler's Christianity

To deny the influence of Christianity on Hitler and its role in World War II, means that you must ignore history and forever bar yourself from understanding the source of German anti-Semitism and how the WWII atrocities occurred.

Acharya San,

Its not that simple. Hitler publicly professed admiration for Izlam and berated Christianity's seeming weaknesses.

Those who deny Hitler as a Christian will invariably find the recorded table talk conversations of Hitler from 1941 to 1944 as incontrovertible evidence that he could not have been a Christian. The source usually comes from the English translation edition by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens, with an introduction by H.R. Trevor-Roper.

The table talk has Hitler saying such things such as: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains...," "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death."

But those that argue against Hitler's Christianity fail to see that Christianity comes in many forms, two of which consist as: a belief system held by Christians, and organized religion. It was the latter, organized Christianity, that Hitler spoke against (just as many Christians do today). Not once does Hitler denounce his own Christianity nor does he speak against Jesus.

Kumar · Post by **Kumar** » 22 Mar 2007 23:25

Raju wrote:
Kumar wrote:
Since we are liberally theorizing in the hot air here, let me add a tidbit.

Sri Aurobindo was vehemently opposed to Hitler, and wanted India to side with the British in the war in a tactical way to vanquish a bigger evil. Mother (Mira Alfassa) mentioned somewhere that Hitler was under the influence of a luminous-being and was inspired in his evil acts through that. Given Sri Aurobindo's deep connections with Krishna and hence Vishnu, your theory above regarding Hitler and Hindu/Budhist divinities has a big challenge.
he got lost somewhere in the way, and source of his war-funding were the same entities he wanted to keep away from...

Raju,

Mother (Mirra Alfassa), who took over the running of Aurobindo-Ashram when he retired into seclusion, was born in France as a Sephardic Jew.

Here is a quote from a book about Sri Aurobindo & Mother and Hitler. It has "occult" elements, so it is not history of the text-books. Just a response to your occultist posts...

http://auroville.org/journals&media/avt ... hitler.htm
http://auroville.org/journals&media/boo ... hitler.htm

Hitler and his God has four themes. The first describes the conditions prevailing in Germany after its defeat in the First World War: the longing for a better world; the desperate search for a Leader; the German ambition and racism; the romantic movements such as the â€˜Order of the Germanic people'; the history of the German Jews; the roots of Nazism; and the mushrooming of secret occult and spiritualist societies.

A second theme deals with Hitler himself â€“ the development of his mediumistic capacities, the role of the Thule society and that of Hitler's mentor, Dietrich Eckhart â€“ the anti-semite who was probably the only one who really knew what, or rather who, was driving his â€˜pupil' and who said, towards the end of his life: â€œFollow Hitler. He will dance, but it is I who wrote the tune. We have given him the means to communicate with Them.â€

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 22 Mar 2007 23:39

Sri Aurobindo was vehemently opposed to Hitler, and wanted India to side with the British in the war in a tactical way to vanquish a bigger evil. Mother (Mira Alfassa) mentioned somewhere that Hitler was under the influence of a luminous-being and was inspired in his evil acts through that.

kumar, I do not disagree with these points, though I have not studied Aurobindo connection in detail. Hitler was subverted at some point, and he seeked repentence through Tibetan occult. Goebbels his SS chief was the main pointsman for his occult connection. The allies used occult as well, esp in their symbols most important among them being the 'V' sign.

'V' sign was suggested by Alistair Crowley as an occult symbol to cut through the swastika.

p.s. note the comparitive language..'bigger evil/lesser evil'

Abhijit · Post by **Abhijit** » 22 Mar 2007 23:44

Rakesh:

ou do realise that Hitler twisted the words of the Bible to suit his own agenda? In that senese, he ain't no different than the Evanjehadist.

Absolutely. I was commenting on TSJ's assertion that Hitler was not a christian which is flatly wrong. I was also drawing parallel with osama and his so-called non-Muslimness as claimed by apologists which is no different than TSJ's claim.
Re. our previous discussion:
- I was talking about homophobia which you seem to have mistaken for homosexuality - the exact opposite. Bible is homophobic - that means it expressly condemns homosexuality and even goes so far as to mandate killing of homosexuals. This is in contrast with the prevailing view in most of the societies which say that what people do in their bedrooms is their private matter. You may disagree with them.

You cannot pick and choose from the Bible and then say, that they don't seem consistent nor logical. You need to understand in what context the message is being said.

This is exactly my message - that you cannot claim 'biblical inerrancy' and then find obscure contexts to justify the writings in Bible to suit current times/opinions or what is acceptable to you. Biblical inerrancy means each and every word in bible is infallible and consistent with all other words which makes no sense (to me at least) - that is what drives me to talk about the spirit of the bible (that I began with) - There are verses where Jesus asks his followers to procure swords by selling their shirts and then there are famous verses where Jesus admonishes them that those who live by the sword will perish by it. In Luke and Mark, Jesus claims that 'those who are not against us are with us' while in Matthew he claims the opposite 'he that is not with me is against me'. There are verses where salvation is available only to those who accept the word of god while there are several other verses where god will reward men by their words and works or by works only.
You talked about Ephesians 5:26 (I was hoping you would

). In 5:24 a wife is commanded to 'respect' and 'submit' to husband while in 26 a husband is asked to 'love' the wife. Does it not sound grossly unequal to you ? It does to me and we can agree to disagree on the interpretation.
You yourself claimed that there are thousands of examples where people misquote or misread or misinterpret bible to their own nefarious ends. This is the crux of the matter. If you judge people by a book that you have no control over, the same book is liable to be misused in justifying really horrible deeds. Judging of fellow human beings should be left to laws (that you have control over through democracy) and conscience and not to some book that you have no control over. JMHO.
BTW thanks for a very civil discussion, I am enjoying it and hope I have not offended you or your beliefs.

AshokS · Post by **AshokS** » 23 Mar 2007 00:28

Acharya wrote:What is the deal with Tirupathi Hills and seven hills.
Why are Christians trying to build a church on the Hindu holy sites.
Is there an attempt to create the Kingdom of God

So Rakesh -

I don't see any Indians wanting to build a temple in the Vatican...

Why are Indian Christians so keen on building a Church at an Hindu holy site? Why aren't there any Indian Christians protesting this?

Do you support this?

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 23 Mar 2007 00:37

Abhijit,

Please read Mein Kampf and Picker's transcriptions in 'Hitler's Table Talk', or read the material of Nazi 'thinkers' like Alfred Rosenberg, Guido von List, Anton Drexler , 'Savitri Devi', etc.

Alfred Rosenberg condemned Christianity as being too heavily derived from Judaism, and thus intrinsically polluted. Himmler's SS cult in particular which was the core of the Nazi movement explicity rejected Christianity in favour of this exotic 'Aryan' mish-mash.

Nazism was a largely secular ideology that aimed to compete with Communism among the working class and middle class. It misused and distorted material stolen from pre-Christian German mythology, Hinduism and Buddhism to give it a depth it lacked.

Comparing the religiosity of Bin Laden and Hitler provides a very clear answer.

Bin Laden is and always has been a practicing Muslim who claims to act in the name of Islam.

Neither Hitler nor Himmler were practicing Christians, nor did they justify their actions in the name of Christianity.

Hitler admired the Catholic Church in the same way he admired the Communists - he thought they had a good system of organisation, and he admired their drive.

But in the end, just like Communism and Communist Party he considered Christianity and Christian Churches to be a rival that could not be tolerated.

The Catholic Church fearing Hitler tried to offer its support in exchange for a truce, but that truce broke down after Hitler consolidated power. The Nazis put a lot of effort in to what it called the Kirchenkampf ('Church Struggle') to suppress first the Catholic and then the Protestant churches.

The German army+foreign office conspiracy to assassinate Hitler and overthrow the Nazi party in 1944 was largely led by religious Germans.

People like Konrad Adenauer and the Christian Democrats after the war were the non-Marxist German opposition to Hitler who could be relied to take Germany away from nazism precisely because they had suffered at its hands.

Pius XI who died in 1939 publicly condemned Fascism and Anti-Semitism as un-Christian.

But his sucessor Pius XII came from the Vatican's diplomatic corps, and essentially took the easy way out by chosing neutrality - tilting in the direction of whomever was winning. That is to its everlasting shame.

But whether it was Hitler's Kirchenkampf against Catholics, or the Pius XII's blowing with the wind, after 1943 Bavaria and Austria, the Catholic German areas which had been Hitler's earliest and most enthusiastic supporters had become the most anti-Nazi areas - safe enough for Allied agents to parachute in to and find protection from the Gestapo.

Adrija · Post by **Adrija** » 23 Mar 2007 00:42

So Rakesh -

......
Do you support this?

Aren't we exceeding some boundaries here, please?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Mar 2007 00:44

Rakesh being Orthodox wont be able to comment on this. Its an EJ agenda item for Andhra Pradesh. The facts are that most of the pilgrims who come to Tirupati are from TN, Karnataka and Andhra, North India. But the Tirupati jurisdiction is with the AP govt which can and give the permission based on thier interests.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 23 Mar 2007 00:45

ramana wrote:Rakesh being Orthodox wont be able to comment on this. Its an EJ agenda item for Andhra Pradesh. The facts are that most of the pilgrims who come to Tirupati are from TN, Karnataka and Andhra, North India. But the Tirupati jurisdiction is with the AP govt which can and give the permission based on thier interests.

SO by taking over a state govt the EJs can change the Hindu Map of India permanently

Abhijit · Post by **Abhijit** » 23 Mar 2007 00:52

Hitler and SS condemning Christianity is (IMHO) a little like Michael Savage ranting against the Republican Party - not right wing enough. Also it was for political reasons - not doctrinal reasons as far as I can see. When 6 million Jews were murdered through the holocaust when for 2000 years various Christian groups (fringe ones maybe) had been dreaming of accomplishing the exact same result and then to claim that Hitler and SS had a falling out with the Church is a little difficult for poor non-believers like me. It is documented (at least in the source i cited before) that Hitler claimed to be doing Lord's work when he carried out the Holocaust.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Mar 2007 01:19

There were some principal strands of thinking that influenced Hitler- German feeling of stuck in the morass versus their ADAE compatriots, Prussian militarism, Aryan Invasion theory, long Eastern European history of persecuting the Jewish people and Christianity. Their biggest gripe was being the doormat for the invading tribes from Asia over the last two millenia and need to make up for all these grudges.

AshokS · Post by **AshokS** » 23 Mar 2007 01:58

delete

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Mar 2007 02:06

Acharya wrote:
ramana wrote:Rakesh being Orthodox wont be able to comment on this. Its an EJ agenda item for Andhra Pradesh. The facts are that most of the pilgrims who come to Tirupati are from TN, Karnataka and Andhra, North India. But the Tirupati jurisdiction is with the AP govt which can and give the permission based on thier interests.
SO by taking over a state govt the EJs can change the Hindu Map of India permanently

I keep hearing about AP or Hydrabad. Is there special agenda for AP by EJs?
.

Abhijit · Post by **Abhijit** » 23 Mar 2007 02:10

They have their own man running the show in AP - also there is no Modi to oppose them. So it is easy pickings.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 23 Mar 2007 02:29

I keep hearing about AP or Hydrabad. Is there special agenda for AP by EJs?

AP's kangress CM YS Rajashekhar Reddy (YSR), despite his 'Reddy' apellation, is Christian by faith. Hence, the hush hush mills are working the way they are..... Also, by personal experience I can say that at least four prosperous coastal districts in AP- West Godavari, East Godavari, Prakasam and Krishna have been heavily targeted. Every village had a church by 2000 (wasn't the case when I was last there in the late 80s). Where's this funding coming from, makes you wonder....

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 23 Mar 2007 02:32

vsudhir wrote:
I keep hearing about AP or Hydrabad. Is there special agenda for AP by EJs?
AP's kangress CM YS Rajashekhar Reddy (YSR), despite his 'Reddy' apellation, is Christian by faith. Hence, the hush hush mills are working the way they are..... Also, by personal experience I can say that at least four prosperous coastal districts in AP- West Godavari, East Godavari, Prakasam and Krishna have been heavily targeted. Every village had a church by 2000 (wasn't the case when I was last there in the late 80s). Where's this funding coming from, makes you wonder....

Is vishakapatnam in those dist. Is the submarine base target of this plan so that it can be subverted.

Sri K · Post by **Sri K** » 23 Mar 2007 02:44

TSJones wrote:
Well, you got me on that one. I must say I never read that Hitler talked about Christ in any of speeches. I did read that he and his cronies were big in the occult and wierd mythology but I never heard of him proclaiming God's work.

There has been a history of Christian pograms against Jews so it was certainly not a new thing when he practiced it. I just never had the impression that he was a Church going, bible believeing Christian as an adult.

TSJ, Hitler did attend Passion Plays at Oberammergau. So, I guess he did play at being Christian when it suited him.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 23 Mar 2007 03:05

AFAIK, Vizag(and the district as a whole) always had significant presence.
More so IMO than any other city in AP or even Hyd. Nothing out of the ordinary there (meaning no increase of late if thats what is being suggested).

Might be interesting to some - Right at the channel entrance to the inner harbor reside a church, a masjid and a temple within yelling distance. All of them very popular ones too. Makes for a beautiful setting. Dont know how many other places have such an arrangement in India or even elsewhere for that matter.

mandrake · Post by **mandrake** » 23 Mar 2007 03:07

vsudhir wrote:
I keep hearing about AP or Hydrabad. Is there special agenda for AP by EJs?
AP's kangress CM YS Rajashekhar Reddy (YSR), despite his 'Reddy' apellation, is Christian by faith. Hence, the hush hush mills are working the way they are..... Also, by personal experience I can say that at least four prosperous coastal districts in AP- West Godavari, East Godavari, Prakasam and Krishna have been heavily targeted. Every village had a church by 2000 (wasn't the case when I was last there in the late 80s). Where's this funding coming from, makes you wonder....

Dude is this this much serious? why are there no efforts to check this?

dont you think this can have most serious consequences?

Is it really that hindu population is decreasing in these places?

I've heard supreme court banned conversions somedays back or something?

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 23 Mar 2007 03:19

Sadler and Abhijit: Very apt and to the point.

Emphasis annotation below in Abhijit's post are mine.

Abhijit wrote:Sadler's reply to the question 'why does it matter that Christians believe all hindus will go to hell' is most apt. In fact we have a bigger example than the holocaust to prove his conclusion - Islam. Islam took the theology of Bible- "you will go to hell if you don't accept my god and his son" - and refined it further. It says "if you don't accept my god (allah) and his messenger then not only will you go to hell, but I and my fellow religionists have a divine sanction, nay a command, to send you there right here and now". This is called jihad.

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 23 Mar 2007 04:17

Guys the tone of this thread has started deteriorating. It is too good of a thread to be trashed by personal comments directed towards individuals. We can have civil disagreements without animosity and respect for others point of view.
Rakesh thanks a bunch for your reply. Honestly, for the first time I am getting information about Christianity without someone trying to save my soul.

Sadler, I heard that Pius XII actually saved 1000 Jews in world war II to make sure that Bibles prophecy of presence of Jews for the second coming of Christ comes true. They were called Pope's Jew. Is it a true story? or just a rumor without any substance.

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 23 Mar 2007 04:29

Gosh, are you a real live RSS? I mean, I know Brother Kakkaji is, but he doesn't count because of him working in an ivory tower in the US and everything.

I wished Repugnicans in the US would wear brown baggy shorts and march like you guys. But they are so decripit they would insist on wearing support hosiery with their shorts. Varicose veins ya know? And I'm afraid they couldn't march too far for fear of having angina pain. But still, it's a kewel idea.

So, do you guys have like secret meetings? Can somebody like me attend?

No TSJ, unfortunately I couldn't get myself to enlist - I am way too indiscplined and love video games, junk food and the internet way too much for the RSS to like me and having lived in agnostic England and atheist California, I am probably worse off than Kakkaji

However if you are really interested you can attend a RSS "Shakha" - shakha translated means a branch but here you can understand it as a gathering. Believe me you will enjoy it if you skip the prayers et al... they play lot of good old fashioned Indian games, have great meals and generally a shakha ends with a discussion on some thing of interest from current affairs.

And no they don't have 'secret' meetings - shakhas are held in public place and in open ground. All this nonsense of RSS being a secretive organisation is just that - nonsense.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Mar 2007 04:49

AshokS, Thanks, ramana

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 23 Mar 2007 05:19

shiv wrote:But the BJP cannot muster the image that is required in this day and age.

Very aptly put, the modern reformist image is something missing, the media is generally against them and they don't have a single leader who can refute the p-sec charges "intelligently" - Narendra Modi could have been one but for Gujrat riots which have probably set him back permanently.

IMHO one of the biggest political disasters for the BJP in particular and Yindoos in general was the destruction of the Babari Masjid - the entire issue was good only as an election winning strategy and to intelligently fight the jihadis - with the destruction of th Mosque, the BJP has lost an election winning issue and proven itself to be as moronic as the average jihadi.....

image that Rajiv Gandhi or Rahul Gandhi could provide.

Hmm - not too sure about Rahul Gandhi but Rajiv Gandhi's death was a big blow to India - in one stroke we had lost our best face who had started doing the right things - but that is another story for another thread.

Anyways - what the interesting question is: What should the Hindus look at from the political system? Let me expound my (rather useless) thoughts on this:

IMHO from a philosphical point of view, Hinduism is quite safe and if there is an intelligent debate, I am not too sure a logical person would convert to Christianity/Islam purely on Islam/Christianity being "better" than Hinduism/Sikhism et al. It has been discussed many times on this thread that a Hindu can be an atheist or a pious person the religion per se does not demand anything except for him to do his duties. However, X'anity/Islam are fundamentally based on beliefs - and If I "believe" that you are a sinner because you don't believe in what I believe - all logical reasoning ends here and this leads to conflicts.

Hindu's need to look at the political system to protect them from such illogical "believers" - the BJP Govt had taken a few good steps (like stopping of funds from the West etc) to do precisely that - the kangress/UPA couldn't care less.

Protecting the Hindu way of life (which DOES NOT interfere with other religion) is the MOST IMPORTANT thing for India after economic progress etc because the very ethos of the country is dependent on it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Mar 2007 05:41

If Hindu ways of life needs to be protected, then Hindus have to grow up into realizing that this needs to be done. The problem is highlighted by many here, and that it is rightly pointed out that all that we cherish in supporting Hinduism is disregarded by the society and education and media.

We have to make sure that we do these:-
1. Start Hindu schools, and like in American for every other street or community area, they have church imparting education combined with crossing it with religion, the same should be followed, where the education either is free or subsidized based on the economic status of the student. (rob peter pay paul)
2. Augment such a school system with a higher school of credit up to higher education (at least till 10th grade).
3. Ensure, SD and non caste based system is adhered
4. Enroll other religious members on the same equality considerations
5. Provide strong science and math education, that really makes parents to put their kids in such a school and not any other place, by choice and pleasure.

primary education is important to protect hindu way of life!

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 23 Mar 2007 06:08

ramana wrote:There were some principal strands of thinking that influenced Hitler- German feeling of stuck in the morass versus their ADAE compatriots, Prussian militarism, Aryan Invasion theory, long Eastern European history of persecuting the Jewish people and Christianity. Their biggest gripe was being the doormat for the invading tribes from Asia over the last two millenia and need to make up for all these grudges.

Hitler's Nazi anti-semitism unlike Catholic Anti-Semitism in an earlier era was not religious - it was racial.

Crusaders were happy to convert Jews and *then* treat them as equals.

In Hitlerist/Nazi ideology Jewishness was not a religion, but a race, and a source of pollution. A Jew could be secular, or Christian, but their Jewish blood remained polluted, therefore you had to separate them or better yet remove them.

Hitler's hatred of the Jews was rooted in his twisted nationalism. Like many German Austrians he resented the Hungarians, Slavs, etc who enjoyed full rights in Austro-Hungary.

The Jews were the smallest group, and he resented them BECAUSE Jews had become Germans, and were in fact had become better and more succesful Germans than most.

The horribly ironic thing is that the very large Jewish communities in Germany and Poland (which then included Ukraine, Byelorussia and Lithuania - the so-called 'Pale' which Russia conquered from Poland) because in medieval times these were the places in Europe where they were free to prosper and practice their religion.

German Jews in particular were caught by surprise. Many of them were did not use the years before the round-ups because they were essentially in shocked paralysis and denial by speed and ferocity of change in attitudes. They just couldnt believe genocide against them could happen in the Germany that they had lived in for 3/4 of a millenium, and where the Jewish Emancipation during the Enlightenment had been so succesful.

Judeophobia was not what made Hitler so popular among Germans, but they did little to oppose it.

Other ironies - Neither Mussolini's nor Franco's Fascism was not Anti-Semitic. The majority of Italian Jews were Mussolini supporters - until the Germans took over and started to force their race laws and concentration camps. Fortunately the majority of Italian Jews managed to survive.