Religion Thread 4

[rongsheng]

Alokji a lot more. She was speaker in Marxist gala gathering few years back (will try to locate the link). She is leftist in pretended palatable color of Naturalist (dont think being leftist is fashionable now a days hence call her self "Fundamental Rationalist").
rongsheng, welcome to BR. Dont know whether your name is in accordance to BR guidelines.

It is a chinese name. For example
http://www.mse.engin.umich.edu/people/e ... _users/259
or
http://www.beckman.uiuc.edu/directory/? ... otype=PDOC

[Vishy_mulay]

My bad rongsheng. apologies.

[Anand K]

The Early Church had a hand in stoking hatred against the Jews..... it's something like the Pakis being uncomfortable with their Indian past. The ethnic identity of Jesus, his status as a Jewish Messiah (till the Paulines extended the whole idea of Jesus), the fact (disputed though) that the first church was in Jerusalem and of quite a different character than the Church of Rome all have contributed to the fear of Judaism.

I'm sticking my head out here when I make the following parallel..... Theistic sects of Vaishnavism have similarly built up over a millennium, a whole new idea of Mahavishnu from the core Lord Krishna-Vasudeva-Mayon motifs. I have seen raging debates (even in IF) where the idea of Vishnu being the focus from which everything else, including the Goddess and Lord Shiva, emanate were opposed. The difference b/w the parallels is that in Hinduism there were no witch-hunts or pogroms against another sect..... The fights were limited to teams of sages debating endlessly in the Temple bandstands and Mandaps. The worst that could happen was if the new King turns to the opposite sect.... now the previously patronized sect quietly left the limelight to bide their time. And there were these myths which tried to "establish" the 'superiority' of one God over the other. An example cited is that story where Brahma and Vishnu compete by traveling to the nether ends of an 'infinite' Shivalinga. (I wonder what Wendy 'Darling' Doniger would make of this story! ) {PS: There's a similar story about the Monkey King and Buddha in Zen Buddhism.}

The Early Church which sought to attain political leverage (which Indic faiths generally did not) could not let any alternate interpretations lie around. Since there was only ONE God and the only ONE way to Salvation the existence of alternate interpretations/POVs presents fundamental dichotomies which would confuse the lay people of those times. Medieval Islam also faced serious bouts of sedition, Fitna (and even bordering Fauda or anarchy ) when they tried to make Islam science-friendly or when new age interpretations started to crop up.

Coming back to Jewish persecution, there's this morbid joke I've read somewhere:
Ireland during the peak of the IRA movement..... A man was walking down a dark street and suddenly a masked gunman surprises him. "Stop yer arse right there boyo! Are ye Protestant or are ye Catholic?". The man replies, "Waittaminnit mate..... I am Jewish!". The assailant whoops with glee and yells "Allah be praised! I must be the luckiest Arab in all of Ireland!"

[Kumar]

In one of the previous avatars of this thread, G Subramaniam had posted a bunch of EJ links that claimed Hinduism & Buddhism to be devil-inspired, demon-worshipping etc.

I had argued that If a religion is ruled by the Devil and Demons, then shouldn't it be that religion which should lead an assault against any other truly divine-inspired religion? But Hinduism doesn't do that. It doesn't tend to criticize other religions and is happy to accept their great mahatmas as divine inspired mahatmas. In contrast it is the Js and EJs that come after Hinduism hammer & tongs. Historically also Js & EJs have biggest number of massacres & mayhem on their hands, not the supposedly devil-worshipping hindus & buddhists. I had rhetorically asked "which side is being truly demoniac here?".

Indian gurus like Swami Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo said that Jesus Christ was a divine Avatar. Sri Aurobindo called him "an Avatar of divine love". But almost all hindu gurus are extremely critical of organized christianity which insists that Jesus Christ is the only way to divine.

Following this topic of Hinduism & Buddhism being inspired by Devil & Demons, I found a rather explosive quote from Mother (Mirra Alfassa) on Christianity in general, where she says that Jesus himself was divine, but the religion run in his name is "Asuric" or demoniacal. She also says that catholics are somewhat protected from the "asuric" content by their devotion to the Virgin. She has a rather positive comment on Pope Pius XII.

This quote is likely to generate a lot of fireworks. But please, argue passionately if you must, but don't lose the warmth in the heat of the moment.

Mirra Alfassa, in dialogue with a Frenchman affectionately known to her as "Satprem" or "mon petit" (my little one) spoke of it this way:

" One wonders how people in Europe can break through that Christian carapace; it seems extremely solid - it's terrible, really!

Oh, indeed it is.

Even in America, mon petit, they're in its grip. They're always falling back into their Christianity. It's going to be very hard. I don't know why, but every time I come into contact with a Christian thought, it fills me with anger.

Oh, I understand! Because it's true, you know, that an Asura is behind it all - not Christ! Sri Aurobindo considered Christ an Avatar (a minor form of Avatar). One emanation of the Divine's aspect of Love, he always said. But what people have made of him! ... Besides, the religion was founded two hundred years after his death. And it's nothing but a political construction, a tool for domination, built with the Lord of Falsehood in the background, who, in his usual fashion, took something true and twisted it.

It's a real hodgepodge, that religion - the number of sects! The only common ground is the divinity of Christ, and it became asuric when he was made out to be unique: there has been but ONE incarnation, Christ. That's just where it all went wrong. We'll see. It is resisting, resisting everywhere. It's even more resistant than materialism. Of course! Nothing is more terrible than idealists (amongst philosophers including materialists), they're the worst. They're worse than the bad people.

Oh, if you mean the puritans, the Protestants ... dreadful! They're the worst (amongst christians). Catholicism still retains something of the occult sense, and after all, they have a certain adoration for the Virgin, which keeps them in contact with something that's not asuric.

The last Pope, who's dead now [Pius XII], had broadened both his own mind and Church doctrine a lot: he was a devotee of the Virgin. But the Protestants turned back to the Father, and so their worship became exactly the worship of a one and only, personal God, an asuric God. And they have fabricated and distorted everything: like asceticism, for instance, and all that sort of thing - everything they touched was twisted and spoiled. "

[Arun_S]

Anand K: Since when you sprung out of the most sinister place in the world, to maurading the wimmin of the West?

Location: Rearguard of Xerxes's army, out to dishonor the fair boys, sheep and wimmen of the West

I onleee live on the fence, just venture out on missions, but man you were in the midst of the pure faithfuls.
Now don't let qualities of the islamic faithfuls rub on you, and spare the poor Baaa Baaa Black Sheep

[Johann]

The Early Church which sought to attain political leverage (which Indic faiths generally did not) could not let any alternate interpretations lie around.

There was no single 'Church' or doctrine, but rather a profusion of churches and doctrines- you can see Paul's despair in the epistles. Nor was their anything political about Christianity, given the fundamentally apolitical message.

All of that changed Constantine decided to make the Christianity a pillar of the state - but in order to make it serve such a function he had to impose unity.

And that he did, by threat of force and force. He knocked heads together to create a single doctrine, and imposed a structure.

Bear in mind that Constantine never seems to have attended services and only converted on his deathbed. His acts were not driven by religion - there's little evidence he knew or cared much about Christianity. Instead he sought to mold it in to something that could serve the needs of imperial Rome.

One of the reasons I think the Christianity of Kerala is special is that it predates Constantine's fundamental warping of the religion.

The Early Church had a hand in stoking hatred against the Jews.

Depends on what you mean by 'early church'. Before Constantine there were a profusion of Christian communities, which were mostly Jewish sects, some further and some closer to Jewish orthodoxy of the time. It was a fluid situation with people moving in and out of it.

The pre-Christian Romans had frequently killed and persecuted Jews on a tremendous scale because the Jews refused to incorporate Roman state religion, which was seen as the ultimate act of disloyalty.

When Christianity went official in Rome two things happened

- Christianity stopped being a Jewish sect with a good number of gentiles/Greeks, and became a religion dominated by Gentiles/Greeks. Jews began to disassociate themselves from Christianity.

- The Jews were persecuted in the same way they had been persecuted before for rejecting the Roman Empire's official religion.

Coming back to Jewish persecution, there's this morbid joke I've read somewhere:
Ireland during the peak of the IRA movement..... A man was walking down a dark street and suddenly a masked gunman surprises him. "Stop yer arse right there boyo! Are ye Protestant or are ye Catholic?". The man replies, "Waittaminnit mate..... I am Jewish!". The assailant whoops with glee and yells "Allah be praised! I must be the luckiest Arab in all of Ireland!"

The more common version of the joke is that the gunman squints hard after the potential victim says he's Jewish and continues doggedly "right, but are ye a Protestant Jew or Catholic Jew?"

Jokes apart for various reasons the IRA and IRA/Sinn Fein sympathetic neighborhoods started displaying Palestinian flags in the early 1970s.

The Ulster Unioninst neighbourhoods immediately started carrying Israeli flags.

[SaiK]

Alok ji et al, yes.. I did felt that she (MN) was having a prejudiced view, or having some basic misunderstandings..

imho, she is wrong in saying that hinduism does not follow naturalism because of the attribute soul put in all objects. when soul itself is a belief variable, as valid as a person who carries it (in his thoughts)., and adding such a variable does not cause the object either lose its behavior or its characteristics.

after reading the whole 9 yards of her story, it only reflects that she is behind some politically funded organization or having an agenda to just take a pot shot at things, and further does not really say anything.

well .. thanks for reflecting that.. and confirms what i was thinking.

[G Subramaniam]

The xtian % in the Roman empire at the time of Constantine was about 4%
Not much more than in India today

Once the church got hold of the reigns of power, it used patronage and persecution, - Mass persecution under Theodosius 380AD, to wipe out pagan religions

[Alok_N]

imho, she is wrong in saying that hinduism does not follow naturalism because of the attribute soul put in all objects. when soul itself is a belief variable, as valid as a person who carries it (in his thoughts)., and adding such a variable does not cause the object either lose its behavior or its characteristics.

a lot of Hindu thought is lost in translation ... the objects don't have "soul" ... soul is a western concept ... I have no idea what a "soul" is ...

the universality of energy expression in all of reality is central to Hindu thought ...

whether you view energy dynamics through some new fangled idea like String Theory or old fangled Hindu idea like Maya, the nature of the dynamics does not change ... Hinduism maintains that the dynamics in itself is the reality ... so does science ...

btw, both string theory and maya have equal amounts of evidence ...

this is rather straightforward, except for "rationalists" like Ms Nanda ...

ask Valkan for a proper discourse ... unlike me, he is crisp and clear in his posts ...

[Alok_N]

Valkan,

who is responsible for translating Atman into Soul? ... must be some Maximus-e-Mueller type of dude ...

IMO, that translation of Atman-Brahman as Soul-God relationship is a clear attempt to incorporate western belief into Hindu thought ...

from what I see, a lot of Hindus buy into it hook, line and sinker ...

the large mistake, IMO, is that this translation gives identity to soul ... my understanding of Vedic thought is that identifying with Atman is the root cause of ignorance ...

removal of this ignorance leads to understanding ... that's all ...

the view that Atman has a Bollywood ishtyle tearful reunion with a dude called Parmatma is clearly an attempt to inculcate the linear model of "soul" going to heaven to party with "god" dude ...

Please provide gyaan when you have a chance ...

[Kumar]

a lot of Hindu thought is lost in translation ... the objects don't have "soul" ... soul is a western concept ... I have no idea what a "soul" is ...

who is responsible for translating Atman into Soul? ... must be some Maximus-e-Mueller type of dude ...

IMO, that translation of Atman-Brahman as Soul-God relationship is a clear attempt to incorporate western belief into Hindu thought ...

from what I see, a lot of Hindus buy into it hook, line and sinker ...

the large mistake, IMO, is that this translation gives identity to soul ... my understanding of Vedic thought is that identifying with Atman is the root cause of ignorance ...

removal of this ignorance leads to understanding ... that's all ...

the view that Atman has a Bollywood ishtyle tearful reunion with a dude called Parmatma is clearly an attempt to inculcate the linear model of "soul" going to heaven to party with "god" dude ...

Alok Mahatman,

Atman=Brahman is realized at the top of the mountain of "Being" by very few realized sages who manage to climb there.

Below that mountain there are many valleys and hills and plains. Universe is vast in its varieties, despite having a sole brahman as its basis.

Regarding soul:

1. In Upanishads proper there is a repeated mention of a golden-being (hiranmaya-purusha), of the size of a thumb (angushtha-matram) , within the cave of the heart (hridaye guhaayaam).

2. This "being" inside the cave of the heart was identified later by the philosophers/seers with the jiva. Jiva is the entity which transmigrates from birth to birth carrying essential lessons of each life-time. This is not just "pure consciousness" but an actual being of will, consciousness and a sort of a body (prakriti), the karana-sarira.

3. [edited]

4. Heart is identified with the seat of divine within a human body. In Gita Krishna says he is within heart of each being. This is one of the main ways devotional path, bhakti-yoga, is practiced, by realizing the divine presence within one's heart.

5. One of the most detailed expositions is given by Sri Aurobindo, who calls it chaitya-purusha or the psychic-being. He says that human heart region has two chakras. Near the usual heart is the chakra of emotion-being in us. But behind it, as if in a deep cave (nihite-guhAyAm of upanishads), is the center where a divine spark is present in all beings. This chaitya-purusha is like one of the birds in the famous two-bird analogy of the Rgveda and sAankhya (dvau suparna sayuja sakhaya...), the one which is actually involved in the prakriti and suffers or enjoys its fruits. There is a similar formation called "jivatman" and it is percieved in a chakra above the head, but unlike the chaitya-purusha, jivatman is not involved directly in all aspects of a person's life suffering or enjoying its passage through lifetimes. Its like the second bird in that analogy which just watches from above, the witness self.

The chaitya-purusha and the jivatman are eventually discovered to merge into one, and the deepest level they further merge into the universal atman which is brahman. And that merger can be extremely blissful, if you insist you may even call it bollywood ishtyle.

So, there are two kinds of an organization within a human. One is of successive shells or sheaths (like the pancha-koshas of Taittiriya-upanishad), that are centered around the heart, or the chaitya-purusha. Other is a rising ladder kind of organization, that has the usual 7 chakras (muladhara to sahsrara), and some chakras above the head, with jivatman at the top. At the extreme level both these organizations, sheath-like and ladder-like merge into one, the Atman.

Just to mention that it wasn't just theorizing on his part. During his yoga-sadhana he actually found the second center in the heart, which he says felt like diving deeper and deeper before he could open that center. This "golden-colored" center, shaped like a flame of a candle (hiranmaya angustha-matra purusha of the upanishads) is also consistent with the upanishadic sayings. He mentions that before that center opens and chaitya-purusha in people becomes truly active, instead of just remaining passive as in most people, yoga-practitioners go through tremendous turmoils, mostly caused by the vital parts of our being (emotions, power, desires etc., the lower chakras) and also by mind. But an active chaitya-purusha is like a sunlit-path. It creates tremendous harmony in the whole being, and all the rebellious parts become helping participants instead of huge enemies.

Anyone who has practiced yoga-meditation, (I know you have ), knows how the amount of inner turmoils increase, the moment you start doing something serious. Its like whole nature turns hostile. But apparently this center of our being, the chaitya-purusha, when awakened makes everything much more easier.

This is also the center of love & devotion, bhakti. And as the consecutive sheaths and riding-ladders both meet at the same point eventually, this means that bhakti-yoga and jnana-yoga lead to the same goal.

Now regarding the "soul", there is lot of confusion due to mixed terminology. If by soul one means the being in us that goes through lifetimes carrying the karma-impressions and learnings with it, then that would be the "chaitya-purusha" or the "purusha in the heart". It is not same as the universal Atman=Brahman.

[Alok_N]

Kumar boss,

I believe you mis-characterized yourself as a scientist-type ... you speak Sanskritese better than Sciencetese ...

I will have Valkan debate you on points 1-5 ...

as for my feeble attempts at meditation, I came away completely dissatisfied with any "guru dude" I ever encountered ...

as I mentioned in the bits I revealed about my past, I chose science as the ultimate Yoga ...

[Kumar]

Well, sciencetese is best used when talking about science. If I tried to use it where it doesn't belong (yet), then I will either sound like the typical pseudo-scientist dude who fills books with heavy scientific jargon but nil scientific content, or otherwise I would have to try to communicate without words. I don't like either of the choices...

Its like trying to find how to get to the post-office from my hotel in downtown Timbuktu. The scientific way will be to print a map or get a GPS machine etc, all feasible in this case. But if that facility was not available, and I asked someone, then he may start saying something like "Start going along A, where you will see B, then turn right on C, ...". Unless I have actually walked along that path and know that A,B,C exist or have some implicit faith in him and am ready to give it a shot and see for myself, I may just dismiss it as some weird Timbuktweese.

Re; "guru dudes", [edited]

[Alok_N]

Kumar,

It is your misunderstanding to consider science as a point A to B to C ...

if you were truly involved in modern science, you would not say that ... some of the world's best known physicists are worse than the guru dudes I have encountered ...

I keep emphasising modern science ... as in, science of the last decade ... if you are not part of that enterprise, you will not appreciate what I am talking about ...

as for meeting "teachers" who make you feel good, let me remind you of the 70s mantra: "if you see Buddha on the street, shoot him" ...

ponder that ...

[Kumar]

Ok, I shot the buddha.

Re: Science. What woodoo happened in the last decade. I hope I am not stirring one of the "believers" in String-Theory.

[Johann]

The xtian % in the Roman empire at the time of Constantine was about 4%
Not much more than in India today

Once the church got hold of the reigns of power, it used patronage and persecution, - Mass persecution under Theodosius 380AD, to wipe out pagan religions

The important part

- There was no single institutional 'Church' or even a single Christianity initially to take power, until Constantine, a non-Christian created one.

- Even if Christianity, or Constantine's Church had existed before Constantine they could not have taken power without the patronage of Rome's *Pagan* ruling classes.

- Nor could it have happen in a society that lacked the Roman tradition of state religion. Because once you have the concept of a state religion, then its just a matter of which one it is.

- What Constantine and his successors did could NEVER get very far in a society based to some extent on consultative government, such as the old Roman Republic, or Athens.

The lesson is that a combination of despotic, unconsultative government and official state religion is what really makes a society vulnerable to the imposition of new religion. Ask the Aztecs.

[Alok_N]

what happened in the last decade was that science was humbled in its understanding of cosmology ...

String Theory, in case you did not catch my earlier comment, has as much physical evidence as Maya ... i.e., ZERO ...

as for stirring, I am sure that you know the nature of Kumbhakaran ... be vewy careful while hunting wabbits ...

so, in brief, there is Dark Energy in science now ... the amount that we know about Dark Energy is this:

ZERO

and then there is Dark matter ... the amount we know about Dark Matter is this:

essentially ZERO

be vewy careful while contemplating modern science or connecting the dots from A to B to C ...

[Alok_N]

Am I wrong or is the suggestion here that only advanced physics constitutes science?

you are not wrong ...

you may appreciate an Englishman's words better ...

Lord Rutherford said:

Physics is the only science ... the rest is the same as stamp-collecting ...

in case you want to be argumentative, please post what else constitutes science, as science is in its essence ...

[Alok_N]

deleted per Johann's request ...

[Johann]

Actually Alok, I wanted to separate the post, and add modern before science and put it quotes, but your reply came before I hit the post button.

Am I wrong or is the suggestion here that only advanced physics constitutes science?

you are not wrong ... :0

So Kumar might well be on the cutting edge of research in cellular biology, or the geophysics of tectonic activity, but until your post he would have known zero about 'modern science'?

[Alok_N]

So Kumar might well be on the cutting edge of research in cellular biology, or the geophysics of tectonic activity, but until your post he would have known zero about 'modern science'?

he would be a modern stamp collector ... among the best possibly ...

[Kumar]

I am aware of the dark-matter/energy issue, as it evolved since Einstein's cosmological constant days. For science such times are the best of times and the worst of times. Somewhat like the late 19th century...

So, is there a "church of dark-matter" somewhere now?

[Alok_N]

So, is there a "church of dark-matter" somehwre now?

yes ... they worship the neutralino ...

[Alok_N]

Johann,

science in essence deals with finding principles that govern physical reality ... if it deals with applying priciples already discovered, it is either applied science, or engineering, or basically stamp-collecting ...

cellular biology has not discovered a new physical priniciple ... neither has chemistry ... nor has geology of siesmic activity ...

I hope you catch the difference ... it is especially relevant when comparing science to religious thoughts that claim to understand physical reality ...

you see, it simplifies the issues if basic principles are compared ... sort of like an apple-to-apple deal ...

for example, christianity, with its "creation deal" does not even get into the "Super 8" of such comaprisons ... sort of like Pakistan that got eliminated in the first round ... same for Islam and Judaism, most likely ...

the field is reduced to Hinduivity, Buddhaivity, Jainivity etc ...

[Johann]

Deleted. Thanks Alok.

[Kumar]

Alok,

I think it is superfluous to ask Johann to stay away from the "big boys league". He has been in the "Mens League" for as long as I remember. And I mean it sincerely.

[Alok_N]

Johann,

Please point to the insults, as you perceive them , and I will consider your request ...

any reasonable person will see the EJ charade in a nanosecond ... I have followed this thread and watched all forms of opinions get posted with absolute certainty that I am offended to the hilt ... please delete all your posts on this thread, and we will call it fair's fair ...

here's my take on "comparitive religion" as is being peddled here:

Dan married one of a pair of identical twin girls. Less than a year later, he was in court filing for a divorce.

"OK," the judge said, "Tell the court why you want a divorce."

"Well, your honor," Dan started, "Every once in a while my sister in law would come over for a visit, and because she and my wife are so identical looking, every once in a while I'd end up making love to her by mistake."

"Surely there must be some difference between the two women." the judge said.

"You'd better believe there is a difference, your honor. That's why I want the divorce." he replied.

[PIyengar]

[he would be a modern stamp collector ... among the best possibly ...

And whats wrong with stamp collecting ?? All these theories of dark matter and pink matter and poopish brown matter are heady stuff, but I would advise gainst letting them get to ones head. Zimbly because 99.99 % of all living things dont give a poopish speck about them.

And for all we know they could be the feverish imagination of a bunch of geeks hellbent on proving that they too are doing something with their spare time...

My man, Imam Din Guhaviya had this to say about people who think they are Miss Thang for no discernable reason at all:

(Achtung Punjabi)

Teri man ne pakai ne mattar
Tu kothe te chad ke akad 'Mam Dina

Mummy dearest has boiled peas for supper tonight O Imam Din
Don't you wanna get up on the roof and strut your stuff now

And in the same vein

Haseenan diyan zulfan naeen teray was ich
Too khoti di poonshal pakad 'Mam Dina

[Alok_N]

Alok,

I think it is superfluous to ask Johann to stay away from the "big boys league". He has been in the "Mens League" for as long as I remember. And I mean it sincerely.

yes, I have no problem if you wish to induct members in the mens leage of stamp collecting ...

I have thrown gauntlets and requested serious debate ... if the mens league did not pick it up, perhaps they should wonder why ...

posting bizzare history of what happened in a patch of land around jerusalem is not very illuminating ...

I find all that junk about Pauline, Christ, whatever about as interesting as naming all the members of some species of insects ...

if one wants to debate one's beliefs, one would come forth and post them in black and white ... period.

[Alok_N]

aaah ... to illustrate my point, there is this wonderful contribution from C/D-ji ... very apt onlee ...

All these theories of dark matter and pink matter and poopish brown matter are heady stuff, but I would advise gainst letting them get to ones head. Zimbly because 99.99 % of all living things dont give a poopish speck about them.

in case your packeness and that of your compatriots next door in Persia have not realized it, the reason that Uncle is GUBO'ing you is because Uncle has folks who understand sciene ...

even your grass-eating leader figured that out ...

if 99.99% of your brethren don't give a "poopish speck" about science, they would not have been dancing in the streets when Mushy let go of some dragon pathakhas ...

And for all we know they could be the feverish imagination of a bunch of geeks hellbent on proving that they too are doing something with their spare time...

yes, you are welcome to believe that ...

and keep pushing your Jinn Technology and claim that your Book has all the answers ...

"for all we know" is an apt description of you and the Ummah ...

My man, Imam Din Guhaviya had this to say about people who think they are Miss Thang for no discernable reason at all:

you perhaps have not appreciated the role of poetry like a scientist does ... it does not supplant science ... it provides an outlet for a scientist who can not fathom the rank ignorance and mental callousness of folks like you ...

[SaiK]

.. I thought M-theory actually "stings" Maya! .

brahman could be viewed as the fundamental particle that gets knotted to form a super-st(r)ing, could be in matrix (chakras) if more bharman particles vibrate relatively, and / or in the para-brahman branes, it could be in a dimension stinging with M-(aya) Theory. Of course, we have many para-brahman (relative) visualizations, cause of the existence of multiple strings, hence these branes could fuse to make a big bang!


~super-para-brahman~

[Johann]

Alok, you have my thanks appreciation for taking the effort.

[Kumar]

I remember a quantum-field-theory class being taught by a famous physics professor. There was a mathematics professor sitting in the class who evidently wanted to learn about the mathematical aspects of this hot field.

As the lecture proceeded, his discomfort grew. At some point he started shaking his head and then finally blurted out, "its all wrong"!

I guess we need a "physics-jihsdism thread, and just to maintain equilibrium in the universe, a "maths-jihadism thread", and the twain shall keep each other busy.

[Alok_N]

Johann,

I have deleted the three sentences that bothered you ...

Now, here's what bothers me ... it is not a case of "delete" but a case of the Johann that Did not Type (along the lines of the Dog that Did not Bark) ...

I have seen you post a lot but not address, head on, the issue of EJ behaviour in India ...

is there something that you are uncertain about? ... are there facts missing that are preventing you from reaching a conclusion?

as Kumar says, you are in the Mens League, so why not display it by posting certitudes about this issue? ...

missing sentences are sometimes more offensive than minor insults in visible sentences ...

[Alok_N]

I guess we need a "physics-jihsdism thread, and just to maintain equilibrium in the universe, a "maths-jihadism thread", and the twain shall keep each other busy.

Kumar, is this beacuse you feel left out? ... just pick up a book man ... surely you will catch up very quickly ...

as of now, I see little difference between your response and that of C/D-ji ... however, you claim to be a physicist, while C/D-ji only claims to be a packee ...

[Kumar]

A fundamental result:

For every theoretical physicist, there exists a mathematician who can "prove" that everything the physicist was doing was "wrong".

[Johann]

Alok,

I will repeat for your benefit what I said on the various evangelism threads and their progenitors.

- Religious bodies in India should not be granted privileges that they currently enjoy unless they have rigorous accounting of inflow and spending, and unless they support national integration.

- Religious hate speech can and should be discouraged through legal instruments.

- The evangelists have a narrow window of opportunity in India. Their main political weapon is the US Commission for Religious Freedom. This body does *not* have any Hindu/Buddhist/Jain/Sikh representatives on it, and this is a specific area Indian-Americans should lobby to change.

- The Southern Baptists are the most dangerous single group in terms of their determination to use the USCRF as a crowbar to increase access, and in terms of funding flows to the NLFT.

However the violence in the NE, and particularly the communist orientation of some of the groups in Tripura taking this money are potentially a huge scandal in the US that would alienate even many Southern Baptists. Again its up to Indian Americans to turn it in to a visible and audible scandal.

[Alok_N]

Johann,

very well ... this is a policy area where you believe that the amateurs of "Indian AMerican Community" have the burden of action ...

no exalted principles of Nation States and their constitutions etc ...

so, now you see ...

when you leave it up to the Yahoos of a community, what you get is stuff that you consider insulting ...

[Alok_N]

For every theoretical physicist, there exists a mathematician who can "prove" that everything the physicist was doing was "wrong".

as far as I'm concerned they are both "wrong" ... the mathematician is perhaps more "right" than the theoretical physicist ...

but then neither of them is doing science ...

[TSJones]

deleted to soothe injured pride. remember....pride goeth before a fall.....

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

-- Proverbs 16: 18-19 (KJV)