Religion thread - 7

Tilak
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Postby Tilak » 02 Apr 2007 04:22

pradeepe wrote:I guess I can skip archiving this thread.

Folks please dont feed the trolls.


Point taken, especially when few folks are trying desperately to derail, and get this thread banned permanently.. :oops:

My last post, until the next flame.

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Postby Calvin » 02 Apr 2007 04:23

Folks - if you cannot stay the course, please do not disrupt.

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Postby svinayak » 02 Apr 2007 04:28

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/08/24/012518.php

I'm shocked that not many other the others supporting the ban have responded on here. Because there are MANY. I'm one. I work with horses for a living, and you would not possibly understand the difference between horses and "other livestock" until you took the time with them. Horses are incredibly beautiful and intelligent creatures. They WORK for us.

Then we want to kill them so we can send their bodies overseas? (by the way, consuming horsemeat is illegal in the US, yet killing them is not, and the Belgians hardly pay any taxes on this. Food for thought, so to speak). Go research it online. It's easy to find a video that shows horse slaughter. You'll change your mind unless you're a sick moron. And I'm glad that someone is FINALLY bringing this to a more public level!

If Willie was a real cowboy, he wouldn't be supporting the bill! I've had horses all my life, and they are my passion. There are two problems with this bill. Number one, there are thousands of horses out there who are unwanted. They are in people's pastures, not getting proper care, and basically living miserable lives. Number two, there are thousands of people out there breeding horses who are conformational incorrect, have no athletic talent, etc. They just think it's a neat idea to raise a colt.

Thus, when these "useless" horses are floating around, plus the horses who are bad off enough that they should go to slaughter, then guess what? Then there is no base line value (the killer horses, ie per pound), so the value of our well-bred registered horses goes to hell. Basically, thanks to idiots like Willie, us cowboys and cowgirls who used to make our living off selling good horses, have to quit being cowboys and go find another job! In fact, AQHA is the largest registered horse association in the world, and they are opposed to this bill! They recently had an article on their website, explaining why this bill was going to hurt horses more than help them.



That being said, I fail to see how cannabis use is unamerican: What's unamerican is the fact that The U.S. government not only banned a substance less dangerous for human consumption than alcohol, tobacco, nicotine, or pretty well any prescription drugs was banned because corporations were scared to compete against hemp and cannabis-based fibres, fuels, medicines, and intoxicants and used both left and right-wing allies to create a moral panic against the drug centred around its association with "lazy" and "inferior" Hispanics, but also launched all sorts of ridiculous campaigns against the drug (which basically consisted of junk science, religious lunacy, draconian censorship, and outright lies to the American people) ande used blackmail and political influence to force other nations to follow suit. If the U.S. refuses to tell truth to its citizens and respect Mr. Nelson's civil liberties, then why the fk should he feel guilty about cheating on his taxes, a legitimate form of civil disobedience centred around his refusal to support a regime centred around lies and outright contempt for human freedom and basic decency?

My comment is directed at all the responses that compare the horse to cattle, pigs, chicken, deer, etc. Let me enlighten you with a bit of information on this subject: the horse has served people throughout time, they've carried soldiers to war. They've made civilization possible, the horse plays such a prominent role in American culture, business, and history. We watch in awe when a horse "wins by a nose," we find it therapeutic to sit atop a horse as it trots through a field, and throughout history, we have relied on these able-bodies creatures to plow our fields and explore our continent. We as Americans, hold the horse in a very high regard - for good reason. Horses do not fall into the category of livestock, they are considered to be recreational & compainion animals. Americans don't eat horse meat, the horse is not raised to be eaten like the cow, pig, chickens, etc. The horse is NOT a wild animal. The Mustangs of America are considered to be descendents of the Domestic horses brought to America by Spanish explorers and are not "wild" in the sense that other animals would be considered wild.
The horse is a large part of AMERICA'S heritage!
If Paul Revere were riding a Cow or a Pig on his Midnight ride America might not exist today!
How do we reward the horse for their endless hours of work on our behalf? By sending them to meet the most horrific and painful death possible, suspended head down in abject misery, drowning in their own blood to be served to some overindulged European as a "delicacy." Americas horses should be protected from this unspeakable fate and I will fight for this kind, gentle animal until every Slaughterhouse is closed.
My Cowgirl's Hat is off to one of my favorite Cowboys - Thanks Willie we love you!

To All:
AMERICANS DON'T EAT HORSE MEAT!
America's Horses are not being slaughtered to feed the poor people in Europe. Far from it the 3 FOREIGN-OWNED Slaughterhouses that slaughter horses for HUMAN consumption sell OUR horses in EUROPE for $15-$20 a pound! A lot of people think that they only get the old, skinny, sick horses, unfortunately this is not true, because horses slaughtered for human consumption can't be sick, and the Slaughterhouses can't make any profit on skinny horses because the EUROPEANS want meat not bones! The Slaughterhouses send out "killer buyers" that answer ads in newspapers, on the internet, and go to Auctions looking for suitable horses for slaughter. The killer buyers find horses that are a bit lower in price and convince the owners that they would love to give this nice horse a "forever" home with their granddaughter, niece,etc. but the price is just a little too high and the unsuspecting owner believing the lie lowers their price sometimes even giving the horse away to them. Thousands of horses are stolen every year and taken to the Slaughterhouses because they have a "no questions asked" policy-they don't care if the horse is stolen - someone's beloved riding partner never to be seen again.
America's horses aren't being eaten in Europe because of MAD COW DISEASE, their meat is being sold as "designer food." We as Americans have a responsiblity to protect the horse and stand up collectively and tell our ELECTED officials to support H.R. 503/S 1915 The American Horse Slaughter Protection Act.
Please before you respond to something this important do some research and find out the facts! Just Google "horse slaughter" and you'll have all the facts you need, you can help end this atrocity!
"If we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt."
Anna Sewell, author of Black Beauty

Hi, everyone.

There is a big issue for horse lovers before the Senate right now. Three foreign-owned horse slaughter plants here in the USA are killing American horses to sell to diners in Belgium, France and Japan. They kill the horses, harvest the meat, and then ship it overseas. There is a bill before the Senate right now to ban this practice in all 50 states.

Me and some friends are asking people to send an email to their senators asking them to push this bill through and vote to end horse slaughtering. The bill has already passed the US House of Representatives and this is the last hurdle before it goes to the President for his signature.

A common misperception is that the horses are old or sick - not true. Many are under 2 years old and healthy, and are sold simply for money.

Here's how you can help - everyone needs to contact their senators and indicate they don't want our horses dying to feed other countries.

Go to http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/ and type in your zip code. Send an email to both of your US senators and tell them to stop this terrible practice. The vote is coming before the Senate next week so please do it NOW! :-) Thanks!!!

And here is a blog that we set up so you can read more information about it:

http://www.horsesarefriendsnotfood.com



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Postby Alok_N » 02 Apr 2007 04:35

IMO, it is on course ...

we need to settle the centrality of Beef to christianity and the perceived oppression in its denial ...

if it takes 9 pages, so be it ... but let's do it once and for all ...

for example, when was "Beefeater Gin" launched? ... was that in the Colonial era? ... was that an "in your face" psy-ops by the British?

It seems a bit odd to have that Gin and "Bombay Gin" as products of that era ...

after all , we don't have "Chickeneater Gin" or "KidneyPieEater Gin" or "FishAndChipsEater Gin" or "AlooGobhiEater Gin" ...

Clearly "BeefEater" is very special ...

I say we need to stay the course and examine all aspect s of Beef before we can proceed to the next stage of this discussion ...

of course, the next stage may well consist of "DogEating" and "CatEating" ...

Evidently, dietary concerns are very important aspects of religions ...

let's leave no stone unturned and thrash out every food group in this thread ...

For example, what is it with Pigs and Jews? ... Do they have free-flowing Pork in Tel-Aviv? ... if not, why not? ... Perhaps, Sadler can chip in ...

Similarly, if one is a Vegan in France or Switzerland, one is in for a tough time ... if you remove dairy and meats from their menus, there is not much you can eat ...

Clearly, these are Oppressive Democracies ...

What about the right of Muslims to have Alcohol Free Cold Remedy? ...

I will not even address the rights of Rastafarians ... those guys get buggered everywhere except the Carribean ...

This is precisely the topic this thread should discuss for the next few weeks ...

let's have an "All Beef ALL the Time" debate ...

I am serious.

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Postby Calvin » 02 Apr 2007 04:49

Alok, there is an extant discussion focusing specifically on the dharmic, religious and political aspects surrounding this issue of where the threat of "communal violence" will lead us.

It is particularly interesting that you have chosen to disrupt this thread when we got to that point. Are you afraid of discovering something?

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Postby Alok_N » 02 Apr 2007 04:56

Calvin wrote:Alok, there is an extant discussion focusing specifically on the dharmic, religious and political aspects surrounding this issue of where the threat of "communal violence" will lead us.


that is one simplistic aspect of the deeper issue ...

I have tried to bring it out, but you have failed to respond ... for example, you could not even comment on the issue of "Sunday as a GOI ratified holiday" ...

unless, you address these issues, I will be forced to think that you are obfuscating in the interest of "your side of the buttered bread" ...

why not have an open airing of all issues?

It is particularly interesting that you have chosen to disrupt this thread when we got to that point. Are you afraid of discovering something?


quite to the contrary, I hope to learn much more about the centrality of Beef to Christianity ...

I am well aware of the centrality of marijuana to Rastafarians ... I am also aware of how leading democracies in the world, including India, have passed oppressive laws against that religion ...

arguably, the disruption is all yours ... are you afraid of learning something about the universality of silly dietary concerns?

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Postby Karan Dixit » 02 Apr 2007 05:03

I think it is unfair to compare democratic process and tradition of tolerance in India with the same in USA.

India became a democracy in 1947 while USA became a democracy in 1965. So, India had some headstart.

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 02 Apr 2007 05:04

Calvin,
Selective interpretation bias, should I say more? This thread has become mockery and you must take some responsibility. Seriously you think we are discussing anything which will lead us to something concrete or we are just throwing "TORN SHIRT OPEN FLY" abuses. Please try to answer questions raised by many on this thread in response to your posts (we are all here to learn something at least I am). We can still salvage this but it needs a lot of thinking on your part. My last post till some decency returns.

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Postby Alok_N » 02 Apr 2007 05:05

btw, Calvin, I hope you caught my post where I argued that Beef should be banned in India for no other reason than that the majority is against it ...

I am not inserting any weasel words ... it is fair and simple ... just ban what people don't want ...

Beef is just one out of a myriad of products ...

every country bans some products ... India will ban Beef ... Period.

so unlike other folks, I am stating it loud and clear ... Ban beef with extreme prejudice ...

now, let's analyse which country bans what and whose rights are trampled upon ...

why not pursue this line of debate?

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Postby Calvin » 02 Apr 2007 05:08

Beef doesnt have to be central to christianity for this to be an issue. Beef is central to beef eaters.

As for the workweek in the US, while there are traditional weekends, this is not legislated by law, as far as I am aware. If it were, how do facilities operate on a 24-hour basis?

Beef should be banned in India for no other reason than that the majority is against it ...


This is precisely what is known as "majoritarian tyranny". Frankly, this is not a surprise to me that many people on this forum should be supports of this idea.

If we are all agreed that "majority rules" is the operative ideology - What else should we ban, "because the majority is against it"?

Short Skirts? Valentine's Day? Satanic Verses? Lady Chatterley's Lover? Gay Marriage? Rock'n'Roll?
Last edited by Calvin on 02 Apr 2007 05:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby vsudhir » 02 Apr 2007 05:11

I don't see what the fuss is.

There's tremendous gyan about SD basics here. And I mean Tremendous.

Then the good doctor raised pertinent questions - that straddle SD welfare, national interest and security concerns.

And then beef about SD's perceived beef with beef gets aired and the thread unravels so fast? Why? One could say the poster in question probably didn't mean to derail the thread/didn't know well SD's diverse positions on beef etc with beef but then we hear the poster carefully selected those words? Even so, why are SDFs falling for the bait?

This beef thing is a red herring, a canard and a distraction. Its like that tejo mahalaya thingy erupting outta nowhere a few avatars ago in this thread. Pointless distractions. Serve only those who don't like where the thread is going.

And IMO, the thread seemed poised to go into some really interesting territory. Let's get there faster please!

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Postby Alok_N » 02 Apr 2007 05:12

Calvin wrote:As for the workweek in the US, while there are traditional weekends, this is not legislated by law, as far as I am aware. If it were, how do facilities operate on a 24-hour basis?


it is true of private enterprise ... however, I work for the Government ...

and I have no choice in the matter ...

if it is not "legislated by law", as you claim, what explains this oppressive imposition?

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Postby ShauryaT » 02 Apr 2007 05:18

Alok_N wrote:
Calvin wrote:As for the workweek in the US, while there are traditional weekends, this is not legislated by law, as far as I am aware. If it were, how do facilities operate on a 24-hour basis?


it is true of private enterprise ...
No it is not. There are areas in the US, where general businesses such as malls, stores, etc cannot be open on Sundays by regional law.

This is most prevalent in areas, which are catholic dominated.

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Postby Alok_N » 02 Apr 2007 05:20

vsudhir wrote: And then beef about SD's perceived beef with beef gets aired and the thread unravels so fast? Why? One could say the poster in question probably didn't mean to derail the thread/didn't know well SD's diverse positions on beef etc with beef but then we hear the poster carefully selected those words? Even so, why are SDFs falling for the bait?


the reason to fall for the "bait" is to extinguish this non-point about the diversity in India ...

I am of the opinion that India has more freedoms and diversity than the US of A, just to take a "random" example of modern democracy ...

this point needs to be hammered home, not just to TSJ type of sophomores, but also to the more sophisticated members of minority faiths in India ...

I am deadly serious about this ...

vsudhir, I am not aware of where it is that you live ... however, if you do live in the US, you should be aware of the subtle injustices embedded in the system ...

hence, I believe that it behooves us to air these issues and to do a comparitive analysis of the world's leading democracies ...

none of these democracies will be perfect ... but, it is well within the realm of this debate to point out where precisely each democracy fails ...

so, I can understand your impatience, but please bear with the nitty-gritty until this issue of Beef is sorted out ...

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Apr 2007 05:24

Alok_N wrote:btw, Calvin, I hope you caught my post where I argued that Beef should be banned in India for no other reason than that the majority is against it ...
every country bans some products ... India will ban Beef ... Period.

so unlike other folks, I am stating it loud and clear ... Ban beef with extreme prejudice ...
?



The majority will be against a lot of things. but that doesnt mean things will get banned. Heck if you take a vote, I am sure majority will be against alcohol and cigarettes as well. Try banning those for a change?

Apart from the very small minority of HBEs (hindu beef eaters), beef forms the staple for all muslims.. all 130 million of them. There... I can SO see beef getting banned in india.


maybe pigs will grow wings and fly one day?

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Postby Alok_N » 02 Apr 2007 05:26

ShauryaT wrote:
Alok_N wrote:
Calvin wrote:As for the workweek in the US, while there are traditional weekends, this is not legislated by law, as far as I am aware. If it were, how do facilities operate on a 24-hour basis?


it is true of private enterprise ...
No it is not. There are areas in the US, where general businesses such as malls, stores, etc cannot be open on Sundays by regional law.

This is most prevalent in areas, which are catholic dominated.


I didn't want to push that example, but since you have highlighted it, allow me to air my "beef" ...

I was p*ssed no end that I could not buy booze on a Sunday in Pennsylvania ... bothered me to a rage ...

forget Catholic dominated, there are worse issues ...

when I worked in Texas on a temporary basis, there were these bleeding creepy "dry counties" ... :shock:

holy crap! ... in the good old US of A, there were these creeps telling me that I could not buy alcohol which is as religious to me as holy water is to those dudes ...
:lol:
Last edited by Alok_N on 02 Apr 2007 05:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Calvin » 02 Apr 2007 05:27

The question that is being raised is a simple one, is the injunction against cow slaughter a religious one, or one pertaining to dharma.

I can understand the commentary that Valkan raised that the injunction is as an appeasement to the putative mob. But that doesn't answer the question being raised.

As to this comparison with various democracies, we can certainly have that discussion, but it appears to be irrelevant in the context of the axiom that "dharma is tolerant" and therefore doesn't need any of the protections needed by the "judeo christian" democracies.

If there is consensus that dharma implies tolerance, then we wouldn't even need a constitution, would we? We could just have a democracy, where the majority would "rule" on every issue, knowing full well that the dharma would assure that the right things would happen.

Some of us either do not understand how dharma implies tolerance, or have observed what appears to be examples of intolerance, and are therefore suggesting that we need institutionalized mechanisms to keep the anti-dharmics in check.

(anti-dharmics is probably not a real term, but was intended to mean those that would take away the basic rights of others, such as the right to sustain one's life, the right to liberty and the right to one's life's work (property).)
Last edited by Calvin on 02 Apr 2007 05:37, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Apr 2007 05:28

Alok_N wrote:[

I was p*ssed no end that I could not buy booze on a Sunday in Pennsylvania ... bothered me to a rage ...
:lol:


Thats because booze outlets (hard likkers like whisky and vodka) in Pennsylvania are run by the state govt and they take a holiday on sundays? :P - you could have always bought beer (Which is sold by the pvt outlets onlee)..

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Postby Tilak » 02 Apr 2007 05:32

CPrakash wrote:
Alok_N wrote:[

I was p*ssed no end that I could not buy booze on a Sunday in Pennsylvania ... bothered me to a rage ...
:lol:


Thats because booze in Pennsylvania is run by the state govt and they take a holiday on sundays? :P - you could have always bought beer..


I am glad you didn't prescribe him the "right to riot", in accordance with your earlier post :P

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Apr 2007 05:34

Tilak wrote:[

I am glad you didn't prescribe him the "right to riot", in accordance with your earlier post :P


My point was the imposition on Aloks Liquor rights was administrative in nature and not religious persecution. He can ofcourse either riot or stock up on a saturday if it really that important.

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Apr 2007 05:36

SriKumar wrote:[ Nope. I dont know of many states that have state-run liqour shops (personally know exactly one). THere are many states where liquor is banned on Sundays in private shops. See this link. Search for keyword: Sunday. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquor_store


Srikumar, In PA, its the state run PLCB http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvan ... trol_Board

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Postby SriKumar » 02 Apr 2007 05:39

CPrakash wrote:
SriKumar wrote:[ Nope. I dont know of many states that have state-run liqour shops (personally know exactly one). THere are many states where liquor is banned on Sundays in private shops. See this link. Search for keyword: Sunday. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquor_store


Srikumar, In PA, its the state run PLCB http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvan ... trol_Board
Right, but my point was that Sunday liqour sale is banned in many states from private shops by the govt., if you check the link. That is the sole point. I was really surprised the first time I ran into it.
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Postby Tilak » 02 Apr 2007 05:41

CPrakash wrote:
Tilak wrote:[

I am glad you didn't prescribe him the "right to riot", in accordance with your earlier post :P


My point was the imposition on Aloks Liquor rights was administrative in nature and not religious persecution. He can ofcourse either riot or stock up on a saturday if it really that important.


Would be correct if the Indian Government, lets the vendors sell for one day in month/year and let people stock up or) let them switch to chicken ?

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Postby Alok_N » 02 Apr 2007 05:42

Calvin wrote:The question that is being raised is a simple one, is the injunction against cow slaughter a religious one, or one pertaining to dharma.


I had generously offered you that lattitude ... however, now I am arguing that the injunction is based purely on the wishes of the majority without any consideration of subtelities such as "dharma" or "religion" ...

As to this comparison with various democracies, we can certainly have that discussion, but it appears to be irrelevant in the context of the axiom that "dharma is tolerant" and therefore doesn't need any of the protections needed by the "judeo christian" democracies.


well, forget that "context" ... here is the new context ... the new injuction is that "you just can't have beef because the majority doesn't give two hoots about your silly need to have beef" ...

argue that, will ya?

If there is consensus that dharma implies tolerance, then we wouldn't even need a constitution, would we? We could just have a democracy, knowing full well that the dharma would assure that the right things would happen.


what is this "consensus" that you bring up? ... there never is "consensus" in any society ... it is always the tyranny of the majority ... I pay $3 per pack of cigarettes because 68% of the idiots in my state decided that the 32% could be taxed with prejudice ...

where do you see "consensus" in the real world?

The difficulty in this argument is there are some of us that do not either understand how dharma implies tolerance, or have observed what appears to be examples of intolerance, and are therefore suggesting that we need institutionalized mechanisms to keep the anti-dharmics in check.


well, tough ... eat your "difficulty" and get with the program ...

you ain't gonna get any "check on Dharmics" because you are unreasonable about your demand that Beef is central to Christianity ...

I suggest that you refelct on the "root cause" of your unreasonable demands and get with the program of being a cooperative member of society ...

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 02 Apr 2007 05:44

Alok_N,

A bit of nit-picking plus some relevant point.

I support banning cow (cow only, not bullock) slaughter and banning sale, export and eating of cow meat.

Beef includes meat of cow and bullock.

Slaughter of bullocks and sale of bullock meat should be legal.

It would be best if we use cow-meat instead of word beef to avoid confusion.

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Postby Calvin » 02 Apr 2007 05:45

There are many laws like the liquor laws that are a direct result of the opinion of the majority taking effect. Liquor is not the end of it, there are speed limits on the highways, laws against prostitution, laws against narcotic drugs trafficking and consumption, taxes on cigarrettes, age limits on alcohol consumption and so on.

There are probably two questions here:
(a) do the majority have the right to take away all rights from the minority?
(b) (if the majority do not have the right to take away all rights), what are the minimum rights that are deserving of protection from the majority?

(Alok, I have repeatedly noted that I am not asserting that beef is "central" to Christianity. Please desist from propagating falsehoods)
Last edited by Calvin on 02 Apr 2007 05:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Alok_N » 02 Apr 2007 05:46

CPrakash wrote:My point was the imposition on Aloks Liquor rights was administrative in nature and not religious persecution. He can ofcourse either riot or stock up on a saturday if it really that important.


of course, I stocked up ... one learns to live with the oppression ... but occasionally, the party on Saturday ended up consuming the stock intended for Sunday ... :(

I underwent extreme suppression of religion on subsequent Sundays ...

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Apr 2007 05:50

Srikumar - at the risk of going OT, from the link you posted, I can count only eight (or nine states) with restriction on selling hard liquor on sundays. even among these eight or nine, most allow consumption of alcohol in a restaurant (acompanied by food) - and beer is not restricted at all. So its not as widespread as one might think. Also they are not preventing you from drinking if have already stocked up... So the religous oppression if any is negligible .

Remember in India, they dont sell liquor on Oct 2, but that doesnt prevent us from having a good time :D

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Postby Calvin » 02 Apr 2007 05:51

Rahul - this discussion is not about "beef" so much as it is about the ideology of those that believe they can decide for the rest of us. See my post above for whether there should be certain minimum rights that the individual should have, or not.

Alok:
I had generously offered you that lattitude ... however, now I am arguing that the injunction is based purely on the wishes of the majority without any consideration of subtelities such as "dharma" or "religion" ...


I find it interesting that for all of the distinction drawing between religion and dharma, that distinction is gone now, once we start getting into the details. Interesting... Is there a distinction at all? If so, what is it in the context under discussion?
Last edited by Calvin on 02 Apr 2007 05:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby vina » 02 Apr 2007 05:51

CPrakash wrote:
Alok_N wrote:[

I was p*ssed no end that I could not buy booze on a Sunday in Pennsylvania ... bothered me to a rage ...
:lol:


Thats because booze outlets (hard likkers like whisky and vodka) in Pennsylvania are run by the state govt and they take a holiday on sundays? :P - you could have always bought beer (Which is sold by the pvt outlets onlee)..


Ah.. Alon ji.. We really are kindred souls..All wine shops are closed in NYC on Sundays as well.. That bothered me into a rage as well. We are not talking of hard liquor .. but just wine like say a cabernet or a shiraz. Except for beer which is sold in the supermarkets and dont need liquor license, any other kind of liquor is not sold.. And no they are not govt owned, but private outlets onlee.

Of course, the Sunday liquor ban is for purely secoolar reasons onlee. Nothing at all to do with the flock of faithful to herded into the Sunday church and not be drunk while listening to the services ..Nothing at all I tell you.. In God we trust of course.

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Apr 2007 05:53

Tilak wrote:
CPrakash wrote:
Tilak wrote:[

I am glad you didn't prescribe him the "right to riot", in accordance with your earlier post :P


My point was the imposition on Aloks Liquor rights was administrative in nature and not religious persecution. He can ofcourse either riot or stock up on a saturday if it really that important.


Would be correct if the Indian Government, lets the vendors sell for one day in month/year and let people stock up or) let them switch to chicken ?


tilak whats your point? the govts in US close thier shops *one day* in a week. whats that got to do with closing beef shops 364 days in an year?

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Postby Alok_N » 02 Apr 2007 05:53

Calvin wrote:There are many laws like the liquor laws that are a direct result of the opinion of the majority taking effect. Liquor is not the end of it, there are speed limits on the highways, laws against prostitution, laws against narcotic drugs trafficking and consumption, taxes on cigarrettes, age limits on alcohol consumption and so on.

There are probably two questions here:
(a) do the majority have the right to take away all rights from the minority?
(b) (if the majority do not have the right to take away all rights), what are the minimum rights that are deserving of protection from the majority?

(Alok, I have repeatedly noted that I am not asserting that beef is "central" to Christianity. Please desist from propagating falsehoods)


ok, good ... we now know something concrete ... "beef is not central" ...

very well, rate it among the type of things you have posted ...

Is Beef more or less important than:

1. Booze
2. Prostitution
3. Speed Limits
4. Drugs

if "more" explain why ...

if "less" why is it an issue?

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Postby SriKumar » 02 Apr 2007 05:54

CPrakash wrote:Srikumar - at the risk of going OT, from the link you posted, I can count only eight (or nine states) with restriction on selling hard liquor on sundays. even among these eight or nine, most allow consumption of alcohol in a restaurant (acompanied by food). So the religous oppression if any is negligible.
The point is not how many states...the point is that it is there. Why should the govt. ban liquor sales in pvt. stores at all? (I agree this is way OT. My last post on Sunday liquor sales).
Last edited by SriKumar on 02 Apr 2007 06:15, edited 4 times in total.

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Postby Tilak » 02 Apr 2007 05:55

CPrakash wrote:
Tilak wrote:
CPrakash wrote:
Tilak wrote:[

I am glad you didn't prescribe him the "right to riot", in accordance with your earlier post :P


My point was the imposition on Aloks Liquor rights was administrative in nature and not religious persecution. He can ofcourse either riot or stock up on a saturday if it really that important.


Would be correct if the Indian Government, lets the vendors sell for one day in month/year and let people stock up or) let them switch to chicken ?


tilak whats your point? the govts in US close thier shops *one day* in a week. whats that got to do with closing beef shops 364 days in an year?


And how many weeks are there in a year ??

Is 364 really that bad a number ? or is it that America/Britain fixes the number of "Permissible" days for India.
Last edited by Tilak on 02 Apr 2007 05:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Apr 2007 05:58

Tilak,

Alok says that closing liquor shops in the US one day in a week is religious oppression of a kind - and we are debating that. Whats that got to do with closing beef shops in india 364 days an year? I might be dense and missing your point - please explain.

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Postby Calvin » 02 Apr 2007 05:58

Alok - If this is a discussion of "majority rules", it is irrelevant how important it is to *me*. Since, by definition, I am a minority of one.

Given this "majority rules" in order to understand the extent to which the "majority" can "rule", are *any* rights that are inalienable under any circumstance.
Last edited by Calvin on 02 Apr 2007 06:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2007 05:58

Sajan wrote:It is not a "cow thingy", it is a question of individual rights.

Shiv made a comment that people can eat a dead cow instead of resorting to cow-slaughter. I showed an example of what happened to dalits who skinned a dead cow and how the perpetrators have escaped the consequences. In this forum itself, example of raping a woman is being put up as a justification for mob violence in the event of cow-slaughter.


Speaking of cows - part of my public health training in medical college was to visit an abbatoir where we were given a demonstration of how cows were killed so that people could get comfort from the time gap between death and plate and call it meat rather than carrion.

The feet are tied up and the cow is tripped so it is lying on its side.

Every cow has a fold of skin running down its neck from chin to chest. The skin is grasped firmly in one hand and a long knife in the other hand is used to slice "shika-shika-shika" through the skin, muscle. windpipe and arteries.

Once the arteries are cut, profuse bleeding starts and the cow is lying on a slight incline that leads to a gutter into which the enormous pool of blood flows. I suspect that if cow are like humans and have 70 ml blood per Kg - a 400 Kg cow will bleed 28 liters - or two buckets of blood.

The cow kicks about a bit - fruitlessly since the legs are tied and it breathes a bubbly breath trough the cut windpipe before it dies. I believe that halal meat requires that the animal bleeds to death.

After that is is ready for skinning and carving to become your yummy steak. Has anyone actually seen this or done it? It's an amazing experience.
Last edited by shiv on 02 Apr 2007 07:24, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby vina » 02 Apr 2007 05:59

Alok_N wrote:I am not inserting any weasel words ... it is fair and simple ... just ban what people don't want ...

Beef is just one out of a myriad of products ...

every country bans some products ... India will ban Beef ... Period.

so unlike other folks, I am stating it loud and clear ... Ban beef with extreme prejudice ...


No.. No.. Dont ban it.. I love a good steak (medium) and a nice burger (not the McDonald's rubbish) .. I dont eat it in India becuase I paranoid about the hygiene factor in any meat product in India..Allow import of premium cuts please...

Just dont kill the Indian cows if the people in India wont allow it.. They surely will have no beef with Australian /Argentinian cows... I am not sure how much longer livestock in the US will remain Genetically Unmodified.. Their cousins across the pond already invented mad cow..

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Postby Shwetank » 02 Apr 2007 05:59

Sajan, you still havn't replied to my post... like I said the temple thing is wrong.... so.. what now... we're trying to change but as a LOT of things in India that need to be fixed it's going to take a while to bring theory into practice. Others have also screwed up and not followed their traditions in practice, they just got developed earlier and solved various problems with it, we're behind in development and so also social reforms... and others still continue to have social problems as well... so once again what is your point?.... the proportion of these things has dropped a lot in a very short time, considering that a lot of development parameters got left behind and the fact that these practices play to the ego and other bad human qualities. As pointed out a lot so called brahmins have been the forefront of change.

p.s. I don't notice such activities in the north in my limited experience, this non-entry to temple thing I always hear from south, any reasons?

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 02 Apr 2007 06:03

Calvin, I am lost. Please put clearly whats your problem with SD? Since you firmly believe that SD is not tolerant what needs to be done in India so that this tyrant Dharma is not unleashed on minorities of India?
I assume you do know that there is Indian Constitution which has given equal rights and protection to all irrespective of race sex religion. Please show us some evidence that in India government is always run by Sanatan religious overtone and there is no separation of State and Hindu Religion. Do you think the western concept of separation of Church and State is working? If so please provide us valid information which can be discussed in SD context.
What is your definition of Democracy? Do you believe that in real world majority exercise its will with check and balances? The Utopian one man democracy does not exist in real life in any system (if it does please enlighten us). Individual rights are accepted in social context as individual being part of society. Everyone who lives in society is bound by rules and regulations of society. Society is governed by majority accepted rules (if you disagree please provide valid explanation).
Most of the legal penal code is extension of moral code of society. Does individual rights more important that well being of society? Moral codes in all western society are extension on 10 commandments. Does that make these codes religious? If so aren't you living in a society which is doing exactly what you are accusing SD is doing in India? Isn't it hypocrisy? Blame everything equally. You have full rights to criticise SD (criticism is always welcome), my BEEF is you provide only one sided interpretation (more than often SD is bad in context to other religions). If every system is bad let it be made clear.
Hope you will at least try to answer one of these questions. (will not be disappointed if you don't, getting used to it).


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