Religion Thread - 8

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 04 Apr 2007 08:02

one interesting feature of this thread is its cyclic nature ...

the same arguments are rehashed because a new member chimes in with an argument which he considers "original" ...

fortunately (or unfortunately) for us, there is another new member who counters it with a retort that he considers "original" ...

and so it goes ... by "new member" I mean "someone new to this thread who has not bothered to read the shaheedized archived threads" ...

and so it goes ... everything is cyclic ... linear model builders, please pay attention ...

Greg · Post by **Greg** » 04 Apr 2007 08:04

Karan Dixit wrote: One does not need beef to sustain one's life. You can sustain your life with high protein beans and high carbohydrate breads. This is not about sustaining one's life. It is about one man proclaiming that he has right to piss on another man.

People who are used to eating beef on a near-daily basis have a real hard time getting used to going without it. Beans are a rather poor (and gassy) substitute for beef. In India, a viable substitute is lamb meat.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 04 Apr 2007 08:05

vsudhir wrote: 3. The US system actually works well. Church and state are reasonably separate....

The US system works well today becuase they kept working at it till the 1960's. It is also a system borne out of the unique experiences of the people belonging, largley to the christian faith and of european descent.

India OTOH neither shares this faith or these experiences. India's only experiences with the Christian and Islamic faiths have been largely negative.

From an Indian perspective, our rulers in a theological sense were under the guidance of Dharma and the ways of the state were wedded to the ways of the land. I would dread to even think of what would India's experience would have been with our past, if it was not for the guidance of Dharma.

So, let the US learn from its experiences and India should learn from its own. There is no need to make someone else's experiences our own and import alien concepts of Secularism, a separation of church and state (Indian does not have any centrally organized religion).

Yet, I will be the first to admit, India would have to still borrow from many such western concepts of individual freedoms, democracy, forms of governance, due process of law, etc, which are more suited to the modern world.

This is largely so becuase the natural evolution of an Indic process was disrupted due to the foreign invasions. So, take what we must but not blindly.

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 04 Apr 2007 08:22

and so it goes ... everything is cyclic ... linear model builders, please pay attention ...

But Alkoji you forgot it is their INDIVIDUAL RIGHT to post it. You on the other hand invented a new FAITH of gastrointestinal salvation. Nabhi chakra firing the Ajna chakra.

Shiv I have a request, can you put a brief synopsis of purpose of this thread and links to archived threads at the beginning (if at all we have another thread dedicated to this topic).

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 04 Apr 2007 08:28

Shiv sar,

Your posts bring out very neatly a lot of summarizing of relevant gyan as well as genuinely new insights. Tks a ton.

Alok,

What is linear in Euclidean space could well be cyclic in pretzel space, no?

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 04 Apr 2007 08:30

Vishy_mulay wrote:(if at all we have another thread dedicated to this topic).

this thread deserves a million lives ... Shiv can outdo Chairman Dragon by proclaiming "let a million flowers bloom" ...

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 04 Apr 2007 08:34

this thread deserves a million lives ... Shiv can outdo Chairman Dragon by proclaiming "let a million flowers bloom" ...

Who am I to argue Alok Sar, Let the cycle continue.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 04 Apr 2007 08:48

Hindu trust helps Mughal emperor's kin

A Hindu temple trust in Bihar has offered a job and free education to the impoverished family members of India's last Mughal emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar's great granddaughter-in-law Sultana Begum.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Apr 2007 08:55

Greg wrote:
People who are used to eating beef on a near-daily basis have a real hard time getting used to going without it. Beans are a rather poor (and gassy) substitute for beef. In India, a viable substitute is lamb meat.

With respect, this is both an uninformed and a historically narrow statement. And the bit about "beans" deserves (at best) the statement "Forgive him for he knows not what he is saying". A less kind way of chracterizing the gassy beans connection with an Indian diet is "gross stupidity"

The bit about beef is not wrong. It merely encompasses a very small part of the truth and extrapolating that - like saying "Dubya made big mistakes, therefore all Americans make big mistakes"

If you watch video clips from world war 2 and look at photographs from WW 1 you find American GIs skinny and completely unlike the beefy boys we get nowadays. If you look back at meat and beef consumption to the early 20th century and the late 19th century (or earlier) - you find that meat eating was not part of the daily diet for a large number of people. Meat was available only for some meals in a week. I am not sure when meat became available every day for Americans, but the British concept of a "ploughman's lunch" roughly corresponds to the sort of diet that people made do with for at least some meals.

In India even today, among wealthy meat eaters, meat does not form part of every meal or even every meal in a week. This is bound to follow the Western pattern as meat eating increases and meat becomes more easily available, but till such time - your statement reflects only a minor percentage of the whole.

Kumar · Post by **Kumar** » 04 Apr 2007 08:58

Recalling that comment by Nietzsche about the phrase "For god's sake"

Its like someone starts confidently to swim across a lake, reaches the middle, and happily drowns

The phrase "for God's sake" is an oxymoron which intially presents a veneer of viability, since God, the omnipotent, doesn't really need anyone to do anything for his sake.

It occured to me that the phrase "believing in a book" is similar.

Faith & knowledge are antithetical. When you know, you don't need faith anymore. Book is a source of knowledge. A book that requires "faith" is....

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 04 Apr 2007 09:04

If you look back at meat and beef consumption to the early 20th century and the late 19th century (or earlier) - you find that meat eating was not part of the daily diet for a large number of people. Meat was available only for some meals in a week.

that is true, in Ireland families used to keep cooked chicken in the centre of the table, while they had their simple meal of bread and potatoes. And everyone wanting the non-veg experience used to sniff at the cooked chicken. After the meal the cooked chicken was put away intact.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Apr 2007 09:18

ShauryaT wrote:The US system works well today becuase they kept working at it till the 1960's. It is also a system borne out of the unique experiences of the people belonging, largley to the christian faith and of european descent.

India OTOH neither shares this faith or these experiences. India's only experiences with the Christian and Islamic faiths have been largely negative.

From an Indian perspective, our rulers in a theological sense were under the guidance of Dharma and the ways of the state were wedded to the ways of the land. I would dread to even think of what would India's experience would have been with our past, if it was not for the guidance of Dharma.

So, let the US learn from its experiences and India should learn from its own. There is no need to make someone else's experiences our own and import alien concepts of Secularism, a separation of church and state (Indian does not have any centrally organized religion).

Yet, I will be the first to admit, India would have to still borrow from many such western concepts of individual freedoms, democracy, forms of governance, due process of law, etc, which are more suited to the modern world.

This is largely so becuase the natural evolution of an Indic process was disrupted due to the foreign invasions. So, take what we must but not blindly.

Well said! Beautiful post, amid all the discussion of why beef eating is right/wrong.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Apr 2007 09:20

why would not milk substitute the beef.. it has enough or more than enough proteins to get the required daily levels. all dairy products have large protein content. its not necessary to kill cow to get the proteins out of it.

if one drinks 3 glasses of milk (you get 21 to 24 gms of protein). plus you get proteins from cereals, grains, pulses, different variety lentils & legumes, soy, beans, and other vegetables as well., as all these are part of Indian cooking.

for an average Indian body mass index, (5'6", 50kg), you only need 55gms of protein per day., and this is per some statistics or weird and non verified formula. still one get enough proteins.

organic soy beans are the best source of proteins. plus the incredible moringa leaves of south India, can solve all veg protein problems. dried moringa leaves can beat helluva lot of beef to dust. maaeeeen!

its all ignorance, and deep ignorance. i wish indian stores in maasa land stocks moringa leaves.. i keep putting it on the wish list every time i visit the stores.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Apr 2007 09:20

Vishy_mulay wrote: Shiv I have a request, can you put a brief synopsis of purpose of this thread and links to archived threads at the beginning (if at all we have another thread dedicated to this topic).

I will try.

But threads must have lives beyond an individual's vision in order for a true exchange of views and information to occur.

Never before in the history of BRF have so many threads filled up in so short a time. Over 2000 posts have been made in about 20 days and over 50,000 views of those posts.

Even I cannot explain this or grasp the significance other than to say that there was a lot that people anted to say on the subject of religion.

The original premise of the thread was to remove the barrier offered to criticism (even self criticism) of Hindus by the dedicated evanjihadism and Islamism threads, so that more gyan could be thrown at a subject that raises a lot of emotions.

I felt that the cosy, comfortable EJ and Islamism threads offered a very limited space for real life situations with relevance to India to be discussed.

If the word secularism was a prostitute, she would have been the most used whore in the world.

The secularism bogey in a discussion forum allows the separation of a discussion of religion from discussion of affairs of state. It is only the "armchair marshal"/armchair minister onanistic self image that all of us who take part in this forum have that makes us imagine that we are "a state" and have to behave like a "secular state" and avoid talking about religion that impinges on our lives and ultimately the state.

That could only be remedied by allowing the discussing or religion. But spillover had to be avoided and hence there was a shaheedization of spillover threads at the start of the current tamasha.

Now how the heck do I summarize this to make a first post?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Apr 2007 09:25

Karan Dixit wrote:I am talking about people in India. For the sake of communal harmony, giving up beef is not that much to ask. Is it?

For the sake of communal harmony, it is best that we allow people to practise their dietary habits. As long as no one forces beef (or any other food) down the throats of people, there is nothing wrong. There are Christians that don't eat pork, because the pig is a hoofed creature and they believe that Satan has hoofs...so now the pig is a descendent of Satan

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Apr 2007 09:34

err.. even cow feet are hoofed!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Apr 2007 09:36

SaiK wrote:err.. even cow feet are hoofed!

Sai...yes I know. I am just pointing out the fact about the nonsense people will come up with (that is not the religious issue behind eating beef, but the arguments put forth by someone of the forum members on this issue). If one does not want to eat beef, then don't eat it. We are arguing about beef & potatoes, when India has far bigger issues at stake - especially on this topic.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 04 Apr 2007 09:37

I am all for understanding of Holy Beef ...

however, I am looking for a sign of understanding from Beef Faithfuls ...

us Shambhu Bhakts used to have some good ol' Nagin, Dhamin, Nepali, Manali, Afghani etc available to us freely ... there were GOI approved/licensed "Bhang Shops" at every major Railway station ...

them were the days of "secularism" in India ...

Now, all that is history ... Laws were passed because the ***** Nancy Reagon "just said no" ...

yes siree Bob, pressure was applied to update "narcotics" laws or lose aid ...

now, is that tolerance, I ask thee, fair Beef Believers ...

were you up in arms at such "dietary restrictions"? ...

unfortunately, some of us remember ...

if the West could hit the east with its silliness, time for East to hit back at the West ...

Beef should be banned with a vengeance ... not just slaughter ... but, consumption, possession, the whole kit and caboodle ...

Possession of 100 g of Beef or more should be dealth with about 10 years of imprisonment ...

amounts greater than 1 Kg should be slapped with "intent to sell" and fetch life imprisonment ...

anything over 10 Kg, and its the guillotine, baby ...

Shambhu wants revenge ... Allakh Niranjan!!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Apr 2007 09:40

gotcha..

I have a new veg theory..

dried moringa leaves has 42% protein content by weight.
compared to only about 21% protein content by weight in beef!!

beef killer = dried moringa leaves

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 04 Apr 2007 09:41

in case some of you are slow to catch on ...

Ganja has been smoked freely in India for at least the last 5,000 years except for the last 25 years or so ...

Who The F does GOI represent?

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 04 Apr 2007 09:41

Rakesh,

I deleted that post of mine because I thought it was not necessary.

But here is my 2 paisa:

1) Beef is a sensitive issue among Indians. So, it is reasonable to expect responsible Indians to kind of cool it down on the issue of beef eating for the time being. What is more important your juicy stake or communal harmony in the country? After all christians and muslims should care about the well being of the country as well. And communal harmony is very important for the well being of the nation. Why create jihad over beef? Why not eat razma and bread till the country is ready for the beef?
2) On a lighter note, I absolutely abhor the idea of killing any animals and satanic pigs are included.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 04 Apr 2007 09:47

an ancient civilization took orders from that hollywood bimbo ...

where is the outrage?

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 04 Apr 2007 09:52

Alok_N wrote: us Shambhu Bhakts used to have some good ol' Nagin, Dhamin, Nepali, Manali, Afghani etc available to us freely ... there were GOI approved/licensed "Bhang Shops" at every major Railway station ...

them were the days of "secularism" in India ...

That brings to light another set of oppression inflicted on Hindus that are Shambu Bhakts. Can you imagine getting some dhatura in tolerant christian countries? We all know that one cannot engage in Shambu Bhakti without dhatura?

So, I think we should drop this faÃ§ade of tolerance.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Apr 2007 09:56

Karan Dixit wrote:Rakesh,

I deleted that post of mine because I thought it was not necessary.

I was wondering where it went!

Karan Dixit wrote:1) Beef is a sensitive issue among Indians. So, it is reasonable to expect responsible Indians to kind of cool it down on the issue of beef eating for the time being. What is more important your juicy stake or communal harmony in the country? After all christians and muslims should care about the well being of the country as well. And communal harmony is very important for the well being of the nation. Why create jihad over beef? Why not eat razma and bread till the country is ready for the beef?

I am entitled to eat what I can purchase legally. As per wikipedia, there are 3600 *legally* operating slaughterhouses in India - Source. First we need to make beef illegal, then we discuss communal harmony. Taking a choice of food away from a person, that can be legally purchased, just because society deems otherwise is lunacy. Above religion - including mine - is the laws of the country. That is sacroscant.

Christians and Muslims also care about the well being of the country. Please do not blame an entire community or faith, for the bad apples that exist within them. I am not going to get into a discussion of prominent Christians & Muslims in Indian society, because that will go nowhere and is quite frankly pointless. The minority too has played a part in India being where it is today.

Karan Dixit wrote:2) On a lighter note, I absolutely abhor the idea of killing any animals and satanic pigs are included.

LOL! Well said. But I am must say...there is nothing like a plate of baby back ribs, cooked in Apple Butter sauce. Heart attack on a plate, but still worth the risk

Abhibhushan · Post by **Abhibhushan** » 04 Apr 2007 09:56

SRoy

So it can challenged in courts? Any constitutional experts....???

Education is a state subject and the state can take control of schools. The constitution gives a little freeway to 'Minority Institutions' in this matter.

Some years ago, the Ramakrishna Mission took advantage of this by proclaiming to be non-Hindu and a religious minority!

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1 ... 7-02.shtml

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Apr 2007 09:57

Abhi: I sent you an email. Did you get it?

gashish · Post by **gashish** » 04 Apr 2007 09:59

Kumar wrote:
Faith & knowledge are antithetical. When you know, you don't need faith anymore. Book is a source of knowledge. A book that requires "faith" is....

treasure of knowledge right in these words!....this thread is the proof... a discourse on religion brings best out of us Injuns....

back to lurk mode...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Apr 2007 10:03

Alok_N wrote:Ganja has been smoked freely in India for at least the last 5,000 years except for the last 25 years or so ...

That explains quite a bit. I never knew that. WOW!

Alok_N wrote:Beef should be banned with a vengeance ... not just slaughter ... but, consumption, possession, the whole kit and caboodle ...

Possession of 100 g of Beef or more should be dealth with about 10 years of imprisonment ...

amounts greater than 1 Kg should be slapped with "intent to sell" and fetch life imprisonment ...

LOL! Good luck. Go try doing that.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 04 Apr 2007 10:03

Luckily, I am into Hanuman Bhakti so I do not face much obstacle. I hit the gym at least four times a week. A lot of people light diya in front of image of Hanuman and then go home. I work out with 200-pound weights, that is my Bhakti.

Jai Bajrang Bali!!!!!!!!!!!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Apr 2007 10:05

Karan Dixit wrote:I work out with 200-pound weights, that is my Bhakti.

Remind me never to tell you, where I live

Is that free weights or machines?

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 04 Apr 2007 10:09

Machines!

I know, I am not a hardcore Bhakt.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 04 Apr 2007 10:11

Karan Dixit wrote:That brings to light another set of oppression inflicted on Hindus that are Shambu Bhakts. Can you imagine getting some dhatura in tolerant christian countries? We all know that one cannot engage in Shambu Bhakti without dhatura?

since you bring up this issue, allow me to address it ... technically, Dhatura-level Sadhus are quite advanced ... yet they are "mid-level" on this unique path ...

I suspect that several readers here are unaware of this "sect" among Hindus ... the idea is quite simple ... hallucinogenic drugs are used under careful supervision to "open the mind" of "stuck up dudes" who seek the path of enlightenment ...

it is a form of "shock therapy" to get a seeker to drop his baggage of preconceived ideas that he comes in with ... Ganja, Bhang, Charas are the common substances used based on the proclivity/constitution of the student in question ...

it is not the same as marijuana use among western teens ... there are no "giggle parties" centered around pot smoking ...

the student is allowed to struggle with his concept of "reality" while under the influence and facing altered states of perception ...

IMO, the successful student does not need to use the drugs once he is past the "mind opening" stage ... however, there is the culture in itself that progresses up the path of "drug potency" ... Dhatura enters somewhere in there ...

mind you, I am not criticizing them because I can not from where I am ... I did enter the Dhatura league and realized that it was not for me ... what I saw around me had already impressed me no end ... there were folks getting high on snake-bite ...

yes, there are places in old Delhi where you can still get a snake-bite for about Rs 10 ... there is a snake in a bottle with a cork on it ... you pay the money, the cork is removed. and you stick your big toe in there ... the snake in there (usually a tiny viper species) takes a bite and you move on ...

some sadhus have their own pet cobras who bite them occasionally to keep them high ...

I had seen enough "snake charmers" in India to get comfortable with the "cobra in a basket" because it was well known that the snakes had their poison sacs removed ...

one time I met one of those "cobra sadhus" with 2 or 3 snakes wrapped around his neck ... I was cool about it till some one pointed out that the snakes were "live" as in "fully loaded" ...

I believe that was one instance when I ran like a freak and decided that Physics was a lot easier than this snake freakshow ...

Greg · Post by **Greg** » 04 Apr 2007 10:11

@Shiv

And the bit about "beans" deserves (at best) the statement "Forgive him for he knows not what he is saying". A less kind way of chracterizing the gassy beans connection with an Indian diet is "gross stupidity"

Let me clarify that most people I know would characterize beans to be a poor substitute for beef. I do not doubt that 50 years ago, beef consumption was low - just that once you are used to it, its harder (not impossible) to substitute with beans. As far as beans being gassy - that is widely recognized. I have read that beans contain complex oligosaccharides that are not easily digested by a significantly large section of human population. It is quite possible that either Indian cooking makes them easily digestible or perhaps an appropriate complement of digestive enzyme(s) is present in the Indian genome (arguments would run similar to those pertaining to lactose intolerance).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Apr 2007 10:14

Alok_N wrote:there were folks getting high on snake-bite ... yes, there are places in old Delhi where you can still get a snake-bite for about Rs 10 ... there is a snake in a bottle with a cork on it ... you pay the money, the cork is removed. and you stick your big toe in there ... the snake in there (usually a tiny viper species) takes a bite and you move on ... some sadhus have their own pet cobras who bite them occasionally to keep them high ...

Please tell me this has nothing to do with religion.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 04 Apr 2007 10:16

This thread is filling up too fast, but posts are interesting and confusing at the same time from beef to bhung.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 04 Apr 2007 10:18

Rakesh wrote:
Alok_N wrote:there were folks getting high on snake-bite ... yes, there are places in old Delhi where you can still get a snake-bite for about Rs 10 ... there is a snake in a bottle with a cork on it ... you pay the money, the cork is removed. and you stick your big toe in there ... the snake in there (usually a tiny viper species) takes a bite and you move on ... some sadhus have their own pet cobras who bite them occasionally to keep them high ...
Please tell me this has nothing to do with religion.

point me to one thing that has nothing to do with religion ...

is your "faith" weak, or is your advaita on vacation?

[some folks believe that a cracker on their tongue is christ ... others believe that a snakebite on their toe is Shiva ...

]

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 04 Apr 2007 10:21

Abhibhushan wrote:SRoy
So it can challenged in courts? Any constitutional experts....???
Education is a state subject and the state can take control of schools. The constitution gives a little freeway to 'Minority Institutions' in this matter.

Some years ago, the Ramakrishna Mission took advantage of this by proclaiming to be non-Hindu and a religious minority!

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1 ... 7-02.shtml

Thanks sir, I'm aware of the work around by Ramakrishna Mission and I was expecting that someone or other will dig it out and post it. I believe the said workaround is a bad example.

My query still stands.

Does the constitution "explicitly" prohibits Hindus from setting up a religious educational institution? Or are they being constrained due to the fact that monetary control is in government hands?

The thrust is simple, if the basic structure of the constitution is against the well being of SD and provides instruments to actively suppress the faith then average Hindus are right in being supporting Bajrang Dal types.

But if the constitutional spirit guarantees the fundamental rights of the majority faith then its time to file a PIL.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Apr 2007 10:24

Alok_N wrote:point me to one thing that has nothing to do with religion ... is your "faith" weak, or is your advaita on vacation? [some folks believe that a cracker on their tongue is christ ... others believe that s snakebite on their toe is Shiva ... ]

They remind me of this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 04 Apr 2007 10:27

Alok,

That was a remarkable post.

Here is my experience with Hanuman Bhakti. When I am inside the gym and working out, I feel in tune with the universe. I am calm. Most of my spiritual breakthroughs have occurred at the gym. This Bhakti session lasts for hours.

Kumar · Post by **Kumar** » 04 Apr 2007 10:38

Alok_N wrote:one time I met one of those "cobra sadhus" with 2 or 3 snakes wrapped around his neck ... I was cool about it till some one pointed out that the snakes were "live" as in "fully loaded" ...

I believe that was one instance when I ran like a freak and decided that Physics was a lot easier than this snake freakshow ... Smile

I don't blame you.

But this does explain your "strange" views about yoga and Rishis and babas etc.

By the way, there is a whole series of books by 'Carlos Castaneda' about a Native American mystic named Don Juan, who used a hallucinogen "peyote" to open his mind.