India - Nuclear News and Discussion

Locked
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

Firstly as an aside, why no response to my first post? Just curious
Sorry, I do not recall reading one. Just checked this thread and did not find it, perhaps it got cut off in an Admins eagerness to maintain sanity?

On the following I think I am answering these questions all over again.
NRIs are not Indian citizens. They are not expected to have India's interests in mind. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.
Well, Alok_N and GJMan can vouch for my (I hope :( ) sanity. Both being so popular here.

I did not claim either of that.

However, there are a lot of NRIs who indulge in these affairs for their own personal reasons. Which, IMHO, is all right if one is trying to get software or other business contracts.

I just feel that it is not right to parrot on this topic because the topic is of strategic importance and is not a business issue. It means a lot either way to India, but it hurts a lot more if the strategic issues are curtailed than if the economic growth was curtailed.

I expect an American citizen to understand that - including Mr. Hyde.

It is natural for a super power to meddle with such issues - but it should equally natural for a country (like India) to resist something like Hyde Act and believe in their Scicom.
India's strategic concerns are amply addressed by the GoI's publicly stated red lines on what is and is not acceptable to India.
Where?

IF they were, then there would be no controversy in India. The fact that AK has been showing concern for at least two years now is proof enough. Dr. Prasad has talked of concern in the past day or two. Dr. Gopalkrishnan has publicly stated that the PMO is arm twisting (just google and find it - I have posted he URL enough times).

On the flip side IF the Americans believed there was a red-line, then what is there to discuss for them? Let me know. (Red line = J18 != Hyde Act, so what gives?)

There are ample articles to show that the Americans are ticked off at DAE/AK stand. MMS has also shown discomfort and read what he has NOT said too. It is a give away. That goes for Tellis too.

Look at my past posts to get a better understanding of my arguments (you do NOT have to agree with me).
All the people claiming that the time is running out and so the deal needs to be made soon are on the American side. Did you see anyone from the GoI side make such claims? No.
We will see. IF you are right, then the talks should continue in a few more days/weeks/months. Else today should be "The End"?

Hope you are right and I am wrong.

My gut feel is that the US will give up. And, AK will win in the end (NOT MMS).
Where has the GoI agreed to the Hyde act being the guiding documents for the nuclear deal? You are raising another red herring here.
[/quote]

I am afraid you will have to visit some of my past posts (get to the old thread, click on the print button, reset the count on top RHS and search, or click on my moniker and ask it to show all my posts and search). I have at the right time provided my arguments.
J18/M2 is the guiding document and it remains so.
Somebody forgot to tell the Americans that. They believe that the Hyde Act is and as I mentioned Rice, Burns and Tellis stated that they cannot change that.
The nuclear part of the nuclear deal happens to be incidental. This deal was an exercise in trust building, a confidence building measure of sorts...............
Where are we today? Is there more or less trust?

And, would accepting the Hyde Act create more or less trust?

Have we accomplished the goal?

Then, why the Hyde Act at all? Why not plain old J18? What is India negotiating?

Also, I would be very interested in ATs discussion with you. (indicgroup at netscape dot net)

(BTW, I do not agree with this being the corner-stone, etc. I see that argument as a trap. I do see the US trying to shackle some Indians.)
And one last thing, what exactly is MMS glossing over?
His true belief that India does not need to be a nuclear power.

Arun_S posted something of importance a day or so ago. And, like you had a conversation with AT, so have others. With that in mind, MMS I feel is a great FinMin, he is not right fit for PM (shaky knees)(not a knock - just an observation of many close to him).

And, finally, his statement about patriots was clearly below the belt for someone like him. It was uncalled for and perhaps should take it back.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

India, US closer to nuclear deal after Cheney push
A high level team from India has extended its stay here by a day raising hopes that an agreement on the proposed India-US nuclear deal may be close at hand after a push by US Vice President Dick Cheney.

National Security Advisor M.K. Narayanan and Foreign Secretary Shivshankar Menon are staying back to take one more crack Friday morning at the tough issues stalling the so-called 123 agreement to implement the deal, officials confirmed hours after the two met Cheney Thursday afternoon.

The decision to move the talks into a second extra day came amid signs that the two sides may be close to breaking the logjam with the influential vice president adding his weight to the political push given by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and US National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley.

..........................................
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

Nuclear waste dumping feared in India

[quote]
New Delhi, July 19: The United States is using the Indian offer to set up a dedicated facility for reprocessed fuel to insist on international supervision for a “multinationalâ€
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

India's strategic concerns are amply addressed by the GoI's publicly stated red lines on what is and is not acceptable to India.
One more point. The Hyde Act is clearly not J18. I am assuming you agree to that.

IF you do, then since the Hyde Act was passed the US has not budged at all - even what is happening this past week, the US has not moved on the Hyde Act.

It is only India that has given away something (whatever that is is not imp in this discussion IMHO).

However, IF you check out the position of the DAE from the start, it has ALWAYS been "all or nothing". Even today the Scicom is critical of the position that is on the table - a position tabled by India!!!!

SO, it begs the question, if it is not the Scicom that is providing these options, who in India is?

It can only be those that claim that the J18 is the standard and make statements in parliament.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

We will reconsider N-deal if we return to power: Yashwant
New Delhi, July 20: A Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)-led government will reconsider the nuclear deal if it returns to power as it feels India may be walking into a `trap` by falling for the `US proposal` to set up a reprocessing facility under international safeguards, says former foreign minister Yashwant Sinha.

It is a move that will end up killing the indigenous nuclear programme and compromise the country`s nuclear sovereignty, Sinha said.

Even as Indian and US negotiators are hard at work to break the logjam over the reprocessing issue to seal a bilateral civil nuclear agreement, Sinha, a senior BJP leader, warned the government against going ahead with `this fraud`.

He said the BJP would take the issue to the people and hold Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to account for `this betrayal`.

`If we (the BJP) return to power, we will reconsider the deal,` Sinha told a news agency in an exclusive interview.

`There is a complete cleavage on this issue. There is split in the political establishment. There is split in the nuclear establishment. The government does not have the mandate to go ahead with this deal in this fashion,` Sinha stressed.

`We are absolutely shocked that India has made this proposal of setting up a stand-alone reprocessing facility under international safeguards. This will completely expose our three-stage nuclear energy programme to international surveillance.`

Echoing the opinion of top nuclear scientists like A.N. Prasad and A. Gopalakrishnan, he said: `This will make India a dumping ground of international nuclear waste.

`We will do whatever we can to expose the government on this issue. We will call for a debate on this issue in the monsoon session of parliament.`

He said this was not an Indian proposal but an American suggestion which `we are trumpeting as our own to sell it to domestic constituency`.

`We are walking into the American trap with our eyes wide open. If we go on, we will surrender our nuclear sovereignty and independence of our foreign policy,` Sinha said.

He also questioned the very rationale of going ahead with a deal that does not recognise India as a nuclear weapon state.

`They are completely off the track. The positions of the Manmohan Singh government and the Bush administration are becoming irreconcilable.`

`Either the outcome will entail a deviation from the Hyde Act or it will end up reneging assurances given by the prime minister to parliament,` he said.

As he sees it, the main objective of the US is to achieve what it has failed so far: it plans to bring India in the international nuclear architecture that includes Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT), Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) guidelines, Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty (FMCT) and Proliferation Security Initiative.

India and the US appears to be close to sealing the 123 agreement, that may include a reprocessing deal that will give in-principle clearance to New Delhi to reprocess spent fuel in a stand alone facility under the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards.

Negotiations are continuing in Washington on this critical issue, with the top political establishment, including US Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, giving a final political push to the deal.

The Indian negotiating team side is headed by National Security Adviser M.K. Narayanan and includes, among others, Foreign Secretary Shivshankar Menon, Atomic Energy Commission chief Anil Kakodkar and India`s envoy to Washington Ronen Sen.

Bureau Report
John Snow
BRFite
Posts: 1941
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 00:44

Post by John Snow »

Yeshwant Sinha declaration is like declaring the innings before the toss is tossed!

Hes hould threaten to take to streets before MMS cleans up India in Wash ing ton
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Post by Satya_anveshi »

N-deal: Parliament must have decisive authority By Dr A Gopalakrishnan

Some nuggets..
A narrow, patriotic section of the print media, prominently led by the Asian Age newspaper, and a determined and experienced group of senior nuclear scientists who have spent most of their lives in building up the indigenous Indian nuclear program were left to carry on the battle of preserving what is rationally perceived as Indian National Interest. This group could gather the support of the opposition parties in the Indian Parliament and,through them, raise the opposition to the nuclear deal in both the Lok Sabha and the Rajya Sabha.
The government used only a few hand-picked senior officials from then on in handling this deal, persons in whom the PM has trust and who are also well-known sympathisers of the US points of view. The Parliament, members of the Cabinet, and almost all the rest of the bureaucracy and the general public have no inkling of what is being negotiated, ostensibly for the purpose of "enhancing energy security" and for the larger good of the country by leading it into the US camp.
All of us do understand that the objective is not to pull down the UPA government, but to make this government understand beyond any shadow of doubt that it has to openly articulate the Indian position to the US administration and to our own nation. While doing this, the government must keep in mind the consensus opinion of Parliament at all times. We are ready to accept once again a statement from the PM, if that is what the government wants to save face in the light of the Hyde Act-2006 and the U.S refusal to amend it to take care of the PM's assurances to the Parliament, instead of a joint parliamentary resolution.
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Post by negi »

NRao wrote: MMS I feel is a great FinMin
:roll:
Hack Ptooh, Fin min huh had it not been for then PM narsimha Rao MMS was all set to settle in Canada,he hasalways been indifferent to India and its interests.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

This kicking the can for later reprocessing, how is this different from the Tarapur spent fuel Trishanku fiasco- US wont let India reprocess nor take it back?

This cannot be allowed to continue to the rest of the plants. Right now its confined to TAPP only. In future it could be all other new plants.

Talks in fourth day
Last edited by ramana on 20 Jul 2007 20:55, edited 1 time in total.
williams
BRFite
Posts: 1564
Joined: 21 Jun 2006 20:55

Post by williams »

I have a feeling rediff & TOI reports are DDM + speculation than anything else. We will have to wait for the hard facts to come out in a few days. GOI babus are not fools to differ reprocessing negotiations for future dates.
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Any benefit to India by the deeds of MMS was only incidental at best. The real and major beneficiary was his real master. I hope the charade of this Nuke-deal concludes today and we will know what is what...like Sparsh demonstrated..there seems to be no real statements from GOI that can prove an overt flip/flop. Hope GOI is forced to make statement(s) on the nuke deal status/conclusion and then whatever nakab (or is it langoti) is removed in public.
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Post by Satya_anveshi »

williams wrote:I have a feeling rediff & TOI reports are DDM + speculation than anything else. We will have to wait for the hard facts to come out in a few days. GOI babus are not fools to differ reprocessing negotiations for future dates.
You should add Asian Age, Deccan Chronicle, and The Hindu. You will only be left with <strike>Indian</strike>American Express, NDTV, CNN-IBN etc and we know what those are.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

negi wrote:
NRao wrote: MMS I feel is a great FinMin
:roll:
Hack Ptooh, Fin min huh had it not been for then PM narsimha Rao MMS was all set to settle in Canada,he hasalways been indifferent to India and its interests.
Am I to take it that that NR made a mistake?

I think we cannot take away what is there. Including sellout. An observation is just that.

WRT indifference towards India - I suspect because he is a economist deep down and not a politician?
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Techies might be interested in this article...

End of the road? - 7
The US is historically opposed to India’s three-stage nuclear programme, says N.V.Subramanian.


[quote]20 July 2007: Months after Pokhran II, the Indian three-stage programme was savaged in a September 1998 piece in Current Science. The timing was significant. The writers of the piece were Rahul Tongia and V.S.Arunachalam, a former scientific advisor to the Indian Defence Minister. Both Tongia and Arunachalam were then with the Department of Engineering and Public Policy at Carnegie-Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. In their rejoinder to the piece, then Director of the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR), Placid Rodriguez, and S.N.Lee, one of his IGCAR successors, effectively demolished Tongia and Arunachalam’s argument. "Our study shows,â€
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

ramana wrote:This kicking the can for later reprocessing, how is this different from the Tarapur spent fuel Trishanku fiasco- US wont let India reprocess nor take it back?
The West will allow reprocessing, but will take the Pu back AFTER reprocessing.

Which is of no use to India - India will have to stick with the Uranium reactors and be on her own on the Thorium side. economics will dictate the shutting down of the Thorium side.
williams wrote:I have a feeling rediff & TOI reports are DDM + speculation than anything else. We will have to wait for the hard facts to come out in a few days. GOI babus are not fools to differ reprocessing negotiations for future dates.
Which news paper has "hard facts". Something everyone has been asking from MMS, who hides behind 2-3 statements.

GOI Babus may not be fools, but India has been sliding slowly from a high of J18. So what gives? Who is allowing this slow slide?

Also, if we wait too much a deal struck - like the Hyde Act (which is no longer internal per Rice) - will have to followed. MMS needs to be open.

BTW, folks, it is interesting that Dr. AG has provided an e-mail address.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

Raju

Post by Raju »

NRao wrote:
negi wrote: :roll:
Hack Ptooh, Fin min huh had it not been for then PM narsimha Rao MMS was all set to settle in Canada,he hasalways been indifferent to India and its interests.
Am I to take it that that NR made a mistake?
Why don't you believe Ashok Mitra .... NR had his compulsions because of the doddering economy Sri Chandrasekhar et al us with. (Yashwant Sinha was his FM)
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

Why don't you believe Ashok Mitra .... NR had his compulsions because of the doddering economy Sri Chandrasekhar et al us with. (Yashwant Sinha was his FM)
I would love to get more info on MMS - specially his views on nukes. Perhaps you can lead and provide an URL?
Raju

Post by Raju »

I don't specifically know about his views on nukes, but there is this thing I have read in Sikh forums and during gossip that during the 84 riots Manmohan Singh was himself or part of a group that was chased by a mob and he hid behind a well. Someone who later approached the well accidentaly found Manmohan Singh crouched somewhere near that or did I read it as hiding inside the well itself. He later sold his house in Delhi and moved to Chandigarh.

Being a man of peace-loving temperament and a person of learning this experience might have made him even more anti-war/weapons etc or else who knows might have left some embers smouldering deep inside.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Post by SaiK »

I want this nuke talks to continue till MMS face is completely painted black.. can't save a man who has decided to fall into an abyss.

This govt can't stand to the stands taken that is reciprocity. When US govt has a body of regulators (including NPAs) and legislators driving the show, how is it that India can't drive on the same note. This govt has made candid that it believes in licking the boots, and has forgone democracy and freedom of choice.

Its time to take this to streets, and bring the govt down. Its time to lean towards the left, and bring in the change.
Last edited by SaiK on 20 Jul 2007 22:14, edited 1 time in total.
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Post by Satya_anveshi »

NRao wrote:
Why don't you believe Ashok Mitra .... NR had his compulsions because of the doddering economy Sri Chandrasekhar et al us with. (Yashwant Sinha was his FM)
I would love to get more info on MMS - specially his views on nukes. Perhaps you can lead and provide an URL?
I hope you have seen this carefully..End of the road? - 1
The PM is criticizing the wrong side in the Indo-US nuclear deal, says N.V.Subramanian.

No PM has been more hopelessly disconnected from people than Manmohan Singh, who got re-elected to the Rajya Sabha from Assam recently. He lost the only Lok Sabha election he fought. Second, as PM, Manmohan can blame only himself for administrative delays. He is the prime minister, if he has forgotten that. And he may not remember something else. According to the Frontline magazine quoting Nuclear Power Corporation officials, “the fund allocation for nuclear power projects was “a disasterâ€
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

Oh. Raju, I have far more reliable sources.

I have to get to Rupak, he has been in hibernation for too long (Anurag are you lurking around?).

BTW, the Dr. AG article provide good details - heard first on BR.

It clarifies a few key things, but the one that stands out: it differentiates between some in MMS group as being very pro US, that Babus are a diff group (by inference) and of course the Scicom. It also provides some dynamics. All of which were speculated on BR months ago.

Wonder what does Sparsh have to say about the Dr. AG article.

How long can MMS hide behind a regrettable assurance he gave to the Indian parliament.

Does anyone think the current meetingS are a drama? Burns, Hadley, Rice and then the crescendo, without a drum roll, Cheney Himself.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

NRao, I will tell what I know. In 1991 seeing the economic ruin of under the VPS/CS govts and to blaze a new path RG tasked PVNR to form a committee to figure out what should be done to recover and move ahead. PVNR did the job assigned and was surprized at not being given a ticket to run in the LS elections and moved to Hyderabad. Then the LTTE struck and we know how history came calling to PVNR. At same time there was the BOP issue and WB/IMF wanted some one who knew econmics to be in charge before lending any funds. MMS was suitable to PVNR as he was on the reforms committee and would be acceptable to financial lending institutions. So mole etc is irrelevant. JS and Ashok Mitra makes insinuations. Its a case of connecting the dots of a tiger to look like a billi.


Another unpublicized fact was that RG wanted to jump start the nuke program which he had authorized before the Bofors scandal. Rao was managing that and the delivery systems. MMS was not for allocating resources away from the task of rebuilding the economy. Does not mean he was against the nukes but just what it says. But as PVNR is final authority he made the necessary adjustments and even sanctioned new designs proofed in POKII. He briefed the 13 day ABV govt in 1996 which could not carry ut the tests as it could not muster the majority in LS. The UF knew about the plans for the tests but did not and could not conduct the tests. They dug more shafts to add to the ones in place. In 1998 when ABV came back he took up the tests as his first priority. Richardson came and tried to pressure them not to test and offered maal when needed. They had already set the juggernaut in motion and did not bother with his temptations.

See if MMS made any statements post POKII about sanctions etc?

And while at it can some one put a timeline as to when PLF started improving in the PHWRS as given by the NV Subramaniam articles?
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

Satya_anveshi,

No I have not YET. Will do over the next few days.

Thanks tho'
pradeepe
BRFite
Posts: 741
Joined: 27 Aug 2006 20:46
Location: Our culture is different and we cannot live together - who said that?

Post by pradeepe »

Raju wrote:I don't specifically know about his views on nukes, but there is this thing I have read in Sikh forums and during gossip that during the 84 riots Manmohan Singh was himself or part of a group that was chased by a mob and he hid behind a well. Someone who later approached the well accidentaly found Manmohan Singh crouched somewhere near that or did I read it as hiding inside the well itself. He later sold his house in Delhi and moved to Chandigarh.

Being a man of peace-loving temperament and a person of learning this experience might have made him even more anti-war/weapons etc or else who knows might have left some embers smouldering deep inside.
Please Raju sir, we have enough to lament on his performance as a PM and his lack of vision. Lets leave these gossip stories out on a sitting PM.
Raju

Post by Raju »

NRao wrote:Does anyone think the current meetingS are a drama? Burns, Hadley, Rice and then the crescendo, without a drum roll, Cheney Himself.
It is highly likely to be a media circus leading to formalization of points agreed during informal discussions. Govt to Govt negotiations are always settled well beforehand the actual ones start.

Narayanan is not the type who will take the risk of leading negotiations in something as major as a nuclear treaty. Once that everything has been decided he has just gone to give face to the formalization and claim credit.
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5405
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Post by ShauryaT »

Is not the fear of an economic ruin the same thing as being opposed to India's nukes. It is like, oh, I want a child, but will not do the legwork necessary for procreation. High time, we stop dissecting the views of our leaders. ACTIONS speak far louder than intent.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

pradeepe,

It was his best shot. Meant to be just that.

Ramana,

That is why I brought up Rupak. Need to convene a mid-west session before school starts I feel. AT and all.

ShauryaT,

The loot on MMS has always been that he is sincere, but one with weak knees.

Also, it is interesting that AG says some in .......

My feel is that the Scicom could pressure him equally, if not more than the opposing group.
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Post by Satya_anveshi »

ShauryaT wrote:Is not the fear of an economic ruin the same thing as being opposed to India's nukes. It is like, oh, I want a child, but will not do the legwork necessary for procreation. High time, we stop dissecting the views of our leaders. ACTIONS speak far louder than intent.
Actions do not come out of vacuum. What good will it do by not discussing or dissecting the views and blindly following what leaders do? As a nation suffering deep wounds, particularly caused by the lack of leadership, it is natural we correct the course and this (excessive introspection) is a side effect of that caution. Stakes are too high for not being careful. On the contrary..if we were to go only by actions..will it not destine ourselves in reactionary mode and leading to where we are.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

K.P. Nayar Cheney surprise in nuclear talks

[quote]
Cheney surprise in nuclear talks
K.P. NAYAR
Washington, July 19: National security adviser M.K. Narayanan and foreign secretary Shiv Shankar Menon have bridged a significant gap in concluding the 123 Agreement with US Vice-President Dick Cheney extending “political supportâ€
Paul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3801
Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31

Post by Paul »

I am playing catch up on this....but anyone knows what happened to the testing penalties?
ShyamSP
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Post by ShyamSP »

SaiK wrote:I want this nuke talks to continue till MMS face is completely painted black.. can't save a man who has decided to fall into an abyss.

This govt can't stand to the stands taken that is reciprocity. When US govt has a body of regulators (including NPAs) and legislators driving the show, how is it that India can't drive on the same note. This govt has made candid that it believes in licking the boots, and has forgone democracy and freedom of choice.

Its time to take this to streets, and bring the govt down. Its time to lean towards the left, and bring in the change.
Threats of taking it to streets, bringing down government, or opposition saying we back out on foreign deals/policies point to weakness in Indian government and democracy setup.

This deal is testing the waters of governmental institutions and processes. India badly needs separation of legislative and executive bodies and needs to make them fully electable bodies. At least in the short term make all foreign policies/deals contingent on the parliament's approval. This will at least prevent the PM signing bad deals (123 with Hyde Act for example).
Last edited by ShyamSP on 20 Jul 2007 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
Rye
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 05 Aug 2001 11:31

Post by Rye »

Has Iran has been hung out to dry? Can't see the congress party making that kind of a vote-killing move....so what gives?

All this stuff about "the only remaining aspect is the wording in the 123" is weird.
"Your honour, we are willing to come to an agreement if we are allowed to change one minor aspect of the 123 agreement"
"Which aspect of the agreement is the defendant referring to?"
"the words, your honour"
ramdas
BRFite
Posts: 585
Joined: 21 Mar 2006 02:18

Post by ramdas »

So the sell-out is confirmed....That such such a sell-out was happenning was obvious when the deal did not die immediately after the Hyde act. Now it is getting confirmed that MMS is accepting the deal in line with the Hyde act - in other words, capping rolling back and eliminating our deterrent and surrenderring our energy sovereignity for all time to come. What a hard core anti-national element he must be ? At least the likes of naxals are openly anti-national. People like MMS are far more dangerous.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Post by SaiK »

needs full posting..
N-deal: Parliament must have decisive authority

July 20, 2007

Related Articles
• The Indo-US nuclear tango
• Indian team extends US trip to wrap up N-deal
• Cheney comes to the rescue of N-deal
• India-US marathon N-talks inconclusive
• Kakodkar to remain low-key during talks
• Hectic parleys on in make-or-break round
• Narayanan-Gates meet to untangle N-deal
• Nuclear deal is in last leg: PM

The US-India Nuclear Cooperation Promotion Act of 2006 (HR 5682 RH) was passed by the House of Representatives of the US Congress on July 26, 2006. A total of 219 Republican Congressmen, out of the total 231, and 140 Democratic Congressmen, out of the total 201, voted in favour of this legislation. The US House has taken full cognisance of the cautions and protests it received from the US non-proliferation lobby, and has appropriately modified the earlier version of this Bill (HR 4974) to assuage the apprehensions. Thus, the overwhelming support this Bill received in the full House is only an indication that US requirements have been fully met, while we should also accept it as a strong blow dealt to India's national interests.

In connection with the House and the Senate versions of legislation passed in 2006 , some in the Indian media have gone overboard in their enthusiasm to proclaim that various "killer amendments," which could otherwise have been "deal-breakers" have been defeated in the process. This helped to spread the false and comfortable feeling that the legislation as it came out of the two Committees were benign to India, and all the negative clauses which the Indian critics of the deal have worried about have been eliminated.

The truth is far from it! It is only few of the additional amendments brought forth in the last few days, to further tighten the noose around India's neck, which have been defeated -- all the original restrictions and demands placed on India through HR 5682, as submitted to the House, stayed intact. This euphoria continued up until the two bills were further modified, reconciled and eventually approved by both houses of the US Congress as the Henry J Hyde United States � India Peaceful Atomic Energy Co-operation Act of 2006, in December 2006.

By the time the contents and restrictions of the Hyde Act started sinking into the minds of most of the Indian intelligentsia, it was clear that many of the crucial and firm undertakings given to India by the US Administration have been outright negated by the US Congress, to uphold what the legislature in Washington saw as US national interest. However, die-hard US supporters in the Indian government and the big business houses continued to push both governments to forge ahead and close the deal on the basis of the Hyde Act, despite the strongly negative implications to Indian sovereignty and national security.

A narrow, patriotic section of the print media, prominently led by the Asian Age newspaper, and a determined and experienced group of senior nuclear scientists who have spent most of their lives in building up the indigenous Indian nuclear program were left to carry on the battle of preserving what is rationally perceived as Indian National Interest. This group could gather the support of the opposition parties in the Indian Parliament and,through them, raise the opposition to the nuclear deal in both the Lok Sabha and the Rajya Sabha.

This eventually forced the prime minister to open a dialogue with the Senior Nuclear Scientists' Group and give certain concrete assurances to the Parliament in August 2006, to assuage the sharp objections and rightful indignation of the opposition parties. As the endless negotiations between the two governments proceed, the nation awaits the final outcome, not knowing in which direction its future is being shaped by a few in the Manmohan Singh [Images] government.

A senior-level Indian team is currently conducting what are slated as the 'final lap' negotiations in Washington the fate of this nuclear deal may be a little clearer when this team returns.

We must not lose sight of the fact that many of the serious objections raised by Indian analysts and the scientific community still remain in the India-specific nuclear legislation, the Hyde Act-2006, and whatever wording we may choose in the so-called 123-Agreement, the Hyde Act will govern all aspects of future Indo-US nuclear relations and co-operation.

The Hyde Act-2006 still contains a strong linkage to our relations with Iran and urges India not to co-operate with Iran even in the conventional energy sector, it outright denies the multi-path nuclear fuel supply guarantee which the PM had promised to Parliament, displays a total disregard for reciprocity of actions, includes the mandatory imposition that India need to cooperate and collaborate with the US on the FMCT, that we should fully participate in the Proliferation Security Initiative, the Australia Group, and the Wassenaar Arrangement, etc.

So there is a need to be on guard against the misinformation campaign which is going on, perhaps with some support from our government and the strong business lobbies in India and the US.

Our immediate focus, however, needs to be on how best to protect India's national interests in the near and long term. Should we entrust this task, in the current context of the Indo-US nuclear deal, solely to the United Progressive Alliance government, as we have done so far, or should the primacy of Parliament be enforced to ensure that this and future governments stay within certain mutually agreed boundaries of action? Ironically, the best answer to this question can be gleaned from the views of the US Congress, which also found itself in a similar dilemma over the same deal.

The Bill HR 5682 RH was submitted in mid-2006 to the House of Representatives along with a detailed report which explains the intention behind each of its clauses. Let me reproduce a few verbatim quotations from this report, which clearly make the case why the US Congress was compelled to proactively participate in shaping the current deal.
The report states, 'Given the unique and controversial nature of the proposed civil nuclear cooperation agreement and the fact that Congress was not consulted regarding the negotiations between the administration and the Indian government relating to the original announcement of their intention to negotiate such an agreement, congressional scrutiny and approval was deemed essential to protect US interests.'

The treatment that the Indian Parliament has received from the UPA government is also much the same. The PM sent his advance pointsmen to the US to lay the foundation for this deal, to discuss the strategic path for converting it into a reality, and perhaps to reach certain unwritten understandings with the US administration, including the potential commercial benefits that the US could accrue through this deal in the areas of selling nuclear power plants to India in the future, arms exports, sales of clean-coal technologies and associated equipment etc.

The government used only a few hand-picked senior officials from then on in handling this deal, persons in whom the PM has trust and who are also well-known sympathisers of the US points of view. The Parliament, members of the Cabinet, and almost all the rest of the bureaucracy and the general public have no inkling of what is being negotiated, ostensibly for the purpose of "enhancing energy security" and for the larger good of the country by leading it into the US camp.

Therefore, just as the US Congress did in its interest, it is time that Indian Parliament also woke up to the need for this deal to be subjected to parliamentary scrutiny and approval in Indian national interest.

The US House report further states, 'Direct Congressional involvement, especially the requirement for its approval, is also necessary to ensure that the pledges and assurances made by the administration and the Indian government are actually met and not rendered irrelevant through lack of action or discontinuation of interest. Without enforcement provisions, such statements are obviously little more than promises that may be modified at will, or even abandoned altogether, should circumstances change.'

In our Parliament also, the PM has made statements on this deal on few different occasions, giving solemn pledges on specific aspects of the agreement. However, the way matters have turned out, it appears that the negotiators appointed by the PM have totally failed to impress upon the US administration the promises that he had made on these occasions.

On the whole, the government has not stood up firmly against the American onslaught on the PM's promises, fearing that the deal may not go through. Inherent in this behaviour is the government's strong conviction that India cannot survive and grow if this nuclear deal with the US collapses, which sadly is a colossal fallacy. In any case, the way events are progressing, it shows scant regard on the part of this government for the shared responsibility which Parliament also has in our democratic polity.

I shall close with a third quotation from the US House report which brings out the importance of legislative involvement in such affairs of state. It reads, 'Constitution nevertheless vests Congress with considerable powers and responsibilities in the areas of foreign policy and national security, which its members are obligated to carry out. Fidelity to that trust means that Congress cannot delegate those responsibilities to the executive branch or allow itself to be made irrelevant to government policy in any area.'

Our Parliament must also be aware that it holds enormous ultimate powers and solemn responsibilities under the Indian Constitution. It must feel that, at this juncture, it has an unavoidable collective responsibility to steer this government away from the path it is deliberately following, contrary to the promises made in the immediate past. Whether this is achieved through a Sense of Parliament resolution or a prime ministerial statement to Parliament, is a matter to be collectively decided.

All of us do understand that the objective is not to pull down the UPA government, but to make this government understand beyond any shadow of doubt that it has to openly articulate the Indian position to the US administration and to our own nation. While doing this, the government must keep in mind the consensus opinion of Parliament at all times. We are ready to accept once again a statement from the PM, if that is what the government wants to save face in the light of the Hyde Act-2006 and the U.S refusal to amend it to take care of the PM's assurances to the Parliament, instead of a joint parliamentary resolution.

However, this time we hope the PM will not again make promises and prolong the agony, but decisively move forward and close out the negotiations on this nuclear deal, and start resuming the government's support to the indigenous nuclear program. It is an obvious fact that in trumping up a false case of enhanced energy security through the nuclear deal, the government has been paying scant attention to the indigenous national energy programs and projects in such major sectors like coal and hydro-power. It is time that we establish our national focus on these crucial areas.

Dr A Gopalakrishnan is a former chairman of the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board, government of India. He can be contacted at [email protected]
sraj
BRFite
Posts: 260
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 07:04

Post by sraj »

End of the road? - 7
From the above:
[quote]Tongia and Arunachalam’s second contention was that the fifteen or more years of doubling time of plutonium in a fast breeder reactor (FBR), that is the time taken to produce twice the amount of plutonium that is consumed in a reactor, would slow the breeder programme and diminish its contribution to the national electricity base. “This conclusion,â€
Last edited by sraj on 20 Jul 2007 23:45, edited 1 time in total.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Post by SaiK »

need to table those business sector giants who have a big hand with MMS team and his chelas, of course not to exempt her majesty services. plus plus are those agents and double-crossing to cia spies and traitors who seems to be thumping chests for the deal come thru fast.

http://www.business-standard.com/common ... tono=25439

Boeing, LM, GE, and their Indian counter parts.

Boeing has a big clout around MPs and Indian agents.
Last edited by SaiK on 20 Jul 2007 23:38, edited 1 time in total.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Post by NRao »

X-posting:
Press Trust of India / New York July 15, 2007



Major American companies like GE and Boeing as well as a prominent trade body are ready to launch a big lobbying campaign to persuade the Congress to bless the Indo-US civil nuclear deal as soon as any compromise between the two governments is nailed down, according to a media report.

"All the right tom-toms are beating for a successful conclusion of this deal, which will be huge for US companies," Ron Somers, head of the US-India Business Council within the US Chamber of Commerce, was quoted by the Wall Street Journal as saying.

But the Journal reports that the lobbying campaign by the American firms and the US Chamber of Commerce could face stiff opposition from a number of lawmakers, including the Democratic and Republican leaders of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, who have raised an "alarm" over India's military and economic ties with Iran. New Delhi, it notes, is cooperating with Tehran on a proposed natural gas pipeline from Iran across Pakistan to India. But India has also supported efforts to keep Tehran from developing a nuclear weapon, it points out.

President George W Bush, the Journal says, has known for months that he would have to pay a price to solidify his long-touted partnership with India. After months of trying to resolve deep divisions, the two nations are set to make a final push next week to seal a pact opening the door for deeper political, military and commercial ties between US and India.

At its heart lies a proposal to provide New Delhi with nuclear fuel and technology, which critics say could undermine international efforts to stop the spread of nuclear weapons, the paper reports.

The question, the Journal says, is whether the Bush administration can hammer out a compromise on nuclear cooperation that doesn't undercut existing US laws or give India leeway to develop a new batch of atomic weapons. India is demanding several "painful" concessions, it quotes US officials and experts as saying, that are almost certain to anger key leaders in Congress from both parties, piquing the attention of General Electric and Westinghouse Electric.

"This deal is very very important to both countries," Bill Begert, vice president at Pratt and amp Whitney, a unit of United Technologies, which hopes to supply engines for a fighter-jet deal, is quoted as saying. "If this falls apart, it will have real near-term consequences for everyone in the defence industry."

Pakistan presents another foreign-policy wrinkle, the paper says, adding any advances in India's nuclear capabilities could further unsettle the government of President Pervez Musharraf, currently beset by countrywide protests after he cracked down on the judiciary and pro-Taliban Lal Masjid in Islamabad.

Pakistan also had sought similar consideration from Washington, but was rebuffed. Many US lawmakers have also vowed to oppose any deal that loosens restrictions on how India can use US-provided nuclear fuel, the Journal says.

The stakes are high for Bush's embattled foreign policy, it added, stressing that aides often cite the thawing of relations with India as a key accomplishment of his presidency at a time of deep frustration in the Middle East and rising tensions with powers such as Russia and China. The nuclear deal is key to cementing a partnership between the world's oldest democracy, the US, and its largest, India, after decades of chillness.
ShyamSP
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Post by ShyamSP »

ramdas wrote:So the sell-out is confirmed....That such such a sell-out was happenning was obvious when the deal did not die immediately after the Hyde act. Now it is getting confirmed that MMS is accepting the deal in line with the Hyde act - in other words, capping rolling back and eliminating our deterrent and surrenderring our energy sovereignity for all time to come. What a hard core anti-national element he must be ? At least the likes of naxals are openly anti-national. People like MMS are far more dangerous.
A few years prior to the last elections, good amount of propaganda was unleashed with the aim of bringing down BJP and putting Congress in the government. Underlying goals of that effort and money spent are slowly surfacing. They succeeded in Pakistan in other ways and they may well succeed in India as well for at least C and R part (E part may be avoided as insurance for Chinaman) with this 123 with Hyde Act.
Last edited by ShyamSP on 20 Jul 2007 23:55, edited 1 time in total.
Kamal_raj
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Oct 1999 11:31
Location: U.K

Post by Kamal_raj »

Locked