Hey, there's no bal from the Hazrat at Hazratbal, so why should it be allowed to exist?
Nobody was worshipping at Babri Masjid at the time of its demolition, so why should anybody raise a fuss about it?
The "Holy Land" where Jesus lived was thousands of miles away from India -- if he ever lived at all -- so why care about anything that happens there? Why build places of worship relating to a fellow who'd never even heard of or seen India?
Why should anybody in India be naming themselves after Biblical characters who never even visited India? Why bring its culture here, when that land is so distant as to be irrelevant. To quote someone in this thread, "For gods sake you can't even stand on it" from where we are.
Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition
Theo...
would you be so supportive of demolishing the numerous churches that occupy good land in the center of large Indian cities... whats the need for some of these massive church complexes right in the middle of the city (look at Bangalore, or Pune, or most Indian cities). How did they acquire such prime real estate? Would it be fair to say most was acquired by hook and crook?
Continuing the same argument being used by "rationalist" in the Ram Sethu issue- Why use the church land for a religion that can't be proven, or is not Indian... etc? If we know the land was forcefully acquired, then why not raze these churches and make better economic use for the land...like Malls or parking lots? No one will argue that these cities could benefit from additional parking spaces...
Would you agree to the above? Of course not.... In the Ram Sethu issue its not a matter if Lord Rama built the Ram Sethu. Geologist or whomever may say whatever they like, however its a simple matter of FAITH. As long as there is FAITH - and - your FAITH does not impinge on then rights of others - then how can you justify Politicians - such as Sonia's UPA or the DMK saying what they said?
These politicians are cowards, let them say the same about other faiths. Heck the Da Vinci code MOVIE was banned in India for hurting Christian sentiments - yet a major artifact in Hindu beliefs can be dismissed by so called rationalists? Sanjay was right in tagging these cowards as RACISTS...
It shows a lack of maturity and leadership in Indian politicians. Do you think any Political LEADER in the US would say such a thing about Christianity or Hindu beliefs?
would you be so supportive of demolishing the numerous churches that occupy good land in the center of large Indian cities... whats the need for some of these massive church complexes right in the middle of the city (look at Bangalore, or Pune, or most Indian cities). How did they acquire such prime real estate? Would it be fair to say most was acquired by hook and crook?
Continuing the same argument being used by "rationalist" in the Ram Sethu issue- Why use the church land for a religion that can't be proven, or is not Indian... etc? If we know the land was forcefully acquired, then why not raze these churches and make better economic use for the land...like Malls or parking lots? No one will argue that these cities could benefit from additional parking spaces...
Would you agree to the above? Of course not.... In the Ram Sethu issue its not a matter if Lord Rama built the Ram Sethu. Geologist or whomever may say whatever they like, however its a simple matter of FAITH. As long as there is FAITH - and - your FAITH does not impinge on then rights of others - then how can you justify Politicians - such as Sonia's UPA or the DMK saying what they said?
These politicians are cowards, let them say the same about other faiths. Heck the Da Vinci code MOVIE was banned in India for hurting Christian sentiments - yet a major artifact in Hindu beliefs can be dismissed by so called rationalists? Sanjay was right in tagging these cowards as RACISTS...
It shows a lack of maturity and leadership in Indian politicians. Do you think any Political LEADER in the US would say such a thing about Christianity or Hindu beliefs?
Last edited by AshokS on 20 Sep 2007 04:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Theo_Fidel
My church has given up property to widen roads, and I've personally given up land to widen them too. Have no Temples or Mosques acquired land by hook or crook.AshokS wrote:would you be so supportive of demolishing the numerous churches that occupy good land in the center of large Indian cities... whats the need for some of these massive church complexes right in the middle of the city (look at Bangalore, or Pune, or most Indian cities). How did they acquire such prime real estate? Would it be fair to say most was acquired by hook and crook?
May be you should campaign to remove churches from cities. I don't care. In fact I've known of churches that have sold prime property and moved on, what is your point.
I think these crocodile tears would mean some thing if people who lived there or have even some local knowledge spoke about it.
The Ramayan also says that the people of the south are raksha's or monkeys. This too is sentiment right.
In any case since you are talking about sentiment, how about some outrage over the sewer lines dumping into the Ganga, or the fact that people in Rameshwaram don't have a sewer system and have to defecate on this sentimental beach, the place where hanuman took off from no less.
KK, VHP, Holy men, etc are playing us, its all a charade. The Hindus vote VHP, the Southies vote DMK against the Northies and everyone is happy.
Sigh!
I've never heard that !.Theo_Fidel wrote: The Ramayan also says that the people of the south are raksha's or monkeys. This too is sentiment right.
KK ?, VHP is not a political party to be voted in.. DMK is a part of the UPA, and have been a part of NDA as well, in the past...KK, VHP, Holy men, etc are playing us, its all a charade. The Hindus vote VHP, the Southies vote DMK against the Northies and everyone is happy.
Amazing... So your argument is that people should be outraged about every ills in the society or should not be outraged about anything at all... Wow!!! now you want to control how "Hindus" feel as well...In any case since you are talking about sentiment, how about some outrage over the sewer lines dumping into the Ganga, or the fact that people in Rameshwaram don't have a sewer system and have to defecate on this sentimental beach, the place where hanuman took off from no less.
How do they get land? This is how
***In Andhra Pradesh, a state where non- transparency and non-accountability for Hindu endowments under Govt. manageme nt is a rule rather than exception, utilizes the huge resources of TTD for many non-Hindu purposes. This loot takes place without any legitimate constitutional authority. The World Famous Tirupathi Tirumala Temple receives an annual income of Rs. Three Thousand one hundred Crores in the form of direct cash collected from various sources. In the Financial year 2005-06, the TTD collected 2400 Kilograms of Gold 2,33,000 Kgs of Silver and 543 Kgs of other Precious Stones including Diamonds, Rubies etc. from the devotees. How such enormously large amounts were used for the benefit of the community has never been revealed. In the absence of any factual and public explanation how can one trust the authorities whose anti-Hindu antecedents are already well established? (see attachment A).
According to the latest official pronouncements the A.P. Govt. is going all out for taking over the entire spectrum of Hindu religious institutions. The Endowment Minister, Shri Diwakar Reddy, announced on March 12, 2007 that his Govt. has decided to takeover all temples, mutts and religious trusts in the state. Additionally, the state Govt. was planning to amend the AP Endowments Act to enable the endowments commissioner to oversee the day-to-day administration of mutts. It clearly amounts to Hinduism being made a “keep of the stateâ€
***In Andhra Pradesh, a state where non- transparency and non-accountability for Hindu endowments under Govt. manageme nt is a rule rather than exception, utilizes the huge resources of TTD for many non-Hindu purposes. This loot takes place without any legitimate constitutional authority. The World Famous Tirupathi Tirumala Temple receives an annual income of Rs. Three Thousand one hundred Crores in the form of direct cash collected from various sources. In the Financial year 2005-06, the TTD collected 2400 Kilograms of Gold 2,33,000 Kgs of Silver and 543 Kgs of other Precious Stones including Diamonds, Rubies etc. from the devotees. How such enormously large amounts were used for the benefit of the community has never been revealed. In the absence of any factual and public explanation how can one trust the authorities whose anti-Hindu antecedents are already well established? (see attachment A).
According to the latest official pronouncements the A.P. Govt. is going all out for taking over the entire spectrum of Hindu religious institutions. The Endowment Minister, Shri Diwakar Reddy, announced on March 12, 2007 that his Govt. has decided to takeover all temples, mutts and religious trusts in the state. Additionally, the state Govt. was planning to amend the AP Endowments Act to enable the endowments commissioner to oversee the day-to-day administration of mutts. It clearly amounts to Hinduism being made a “keep of the stateâ€
This thread is going to get clobbered by the Admins
But Theo has point.
Why can't you disbelieve in Ram and still be an Hindu ?
Isn't it racism to depict Ravan and his people as dark and ugly beings? one could go on this.
Fact is this is all politics
Wish Karunanidhi had been crucified for his behaviour against the IPKF.
Was a cleaner issue.
But Theo has point.
Why can't you disbelieve in Ram and still be an Hindu ?
Isn't it racism to depict Ravan and his people as dark and ugly beings? one could go on this.
Fact is this is all politics
Wish Karunanidhi had been crucified for his behaviour against the IPKF.
Was a cleaner issue.
Why should you disbelieve in the existence of Ram to be a nationalist?Why can't you disbelieve in Ram and still be an Hindu ?
Isn't it racism to depict Ravan and his people as dark and ugly beings? one could go on this.
What will you say when Ravan kidnaps your wife... that he is handsome... Good for you.
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enqyoobOLD
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The thing that is buried in the garbage on this issue, is the actual scope of the project, and its real impact on anything holy, etc. etc.
They are proposing to dredge enough to ensure a 12m depth (i.e., no surprise boulders etc.) across a 300m width of the shipping canal. Where it intersects the "Sethu" (which is itself some fraction of a mile wide) the present depth is around 9m, so they MAY have to dredge out some 3m off the top of the "Sethu". That sounds too good to be true - let's say they have to dredge 6m in some places. According to those who have dug there, the top 2m or so is loose sand, and then there's some rocks... and then way below that, there is more sand. So across 300m, in the middle of the strait, which is about 15 to 20 miles wide there, they are going to scrape off a few boulders.
For all I know, they have already done that - and none of the Holies will ever be the wiser, because they care too little to even go out there in a boat and lower a periscope and see for themselves, and if they did, they wouldn't know the difference, because one sea bottom looks like another sea bottom.
The proper analogy, for all the utterly Sensitive Hindus here, is to ask whether Sri Ram just flew in by helicopter from Ayodhya where He was born, to Dhanushkodi. IOW, what about all that other Holy Land where He trod?
Oh, come to think of it, Sri Ram never trod on the Sethu, because according to the legend, the thing was still wet, and he was carried across on the shoulders of some of the Vanara Sena.
So isn't it hypocritical to obstruct a perfectly non-intrusive project on the grounds of this sudden attack of Sensitivity, when you ride a bloody TRAIN, built right OVER the land where Shri Ram DID tread - the Pamban, Mandapam, etc.? And remember that on Indian Railways, the potty place opens right down onto that Holy Ground?
Shouldn't all development be banned, and reversed, all over India where Shri Ram, Shri Krishna, Shri Vamana, Shri Malsya, Shri Koorma, Shri Varaha, Shri Narasimha, Sri Parasuram, Shri Buddha all WALKED?
OK, your criterion may be what the DEVOTEES of these Incarnations built. In that case, the Holy Structures should include pretty-much everything in India, because the Devotees are all over.
So this entire agitation is damned propaganda of the worst kind, and all it does is to give Hindus a bad name.
Seriously, those who want to show some Sensitivity and Take Pride in Our Heritage, should take a week to go out there, and help clean up Rameshwaram island, and do something useful for the descendants of the Vanara Sena still living there. If you can't do that, at least quit obstructing those who want to pull India out of the Stone Ages and bring some semblance of hope to our people there.
They are proposing to dredge enough to ensure a 12m depth (i.e., no surprise boulders etc.) across a 300m width of the shipping canal. Where it intersects the "Sethu" (which is itself some fraction of a mile wide) the present depth is around 9m, so they MAY have to dredge out some 3m off the top of the "Sethu". That sounds too good to be true - let's say they have to dredge 6m in some places. According to those who have dug there, the top 2m or so is loose sand, and then there's some rocks... and then way below that, there is more sand. So across 300m, in the middle of the strait, which is about 15 to 20 miles wide there, they are going to scrape off a few boulders.
For all I know, they have already done that - and none of the Holies will ever be the wiser, because they care too little to even go out there in a boat and lower a periscope and see for themselves, and if they did, they wouldn't know the difference, because one sea bottom looks like another sea bottom.
The proper analogy, for all the utterly Sensitive Hindus here, is to ask whether Sri Ram just flew in by helicopter from Ayodhya where He was born, to Dhanushkodi. IOW, what about all that other Holy Land where He trod?
Oh, come to think of it, Sri Ram never trod on the Sethu, because according to the legend, the thing was still wet, and he was carried across on the shoulders of some of the Vanara Sena.
So isn't it hypocritical to obstruct a perfectly non-intrusive project on the grounds of this sudden attack of Sensitivity, when you ride a bloody TRAIN, built right OVER the land where Shri Ram DID tread - the Pamban, Mandapam, etc.? And remember that on Indian Railways, the potty place opens right down onto that Holy Ground?
Shouldn't all development be banned, and reversed, all over India where Shri Ram, Shri Krishna, Shri Vamana, Shri Malsya, Shri Koorma, Shri Varaha, Shri Narasimha, Sri Parasuram, Shri Buddha all WALKED?
OK, your criterion may be what the DEVOTEES of these Incarnations built. In that case, the Holy Structures should include pretty-much everything in India, because the Devotees are all over.
So this entire agitation is damned propaganda of the worst kind, and all it does is to give Hindus a bad name.
Seriously, those who want to show some Sensitivity and Take Pride in Our Heritage, should take a week to go out there, and help clean up Rameshwaram island, and do something useful for the descendants of the Vanara Sena still living there. If you can't do that, at least quit obstructing those who want to pull India out of the Stone Ages and bring some semblance of hope to our people there.
Theo and Surya. I do agree that the current agitation was too "dial-an-agit" type effort to be treated seriously. But on your part, desist from pulling in the filthy Ganga and Ravana's alleged black ass to prove a point that do not exist - MK's xenophilia or VHP's thoughtfulness towards a long term plan for Indian heritage.
The pre-90 India is gone forever and all sides have to be careful on what they stir up. MK's time is up, he knows that and might be wanting to go out with a bang from his supporter's viewpoint. But he might not be thinking about what his successors (or even others from his state) will have to face in a vastly more integrated India of tomorrow.
And over here, you both are throwing fish gut into the water and then shaking a fist at the dorsal fins that are gathering
The pre-90 India is gone forever and all sides have to be careful on what they stir up. MK's time is up, he knows that and might be wanting to go out with a bang from his supporter's viewpoint. But he might not be thinking about what his successors (or even others from his state) will have to face in a vastly more integrated India of tomorrow.
And over here, you both are throwing fish gut into the water and then shaking a fist at the dorsal fins that are gathering
Let the supreme court decide, it's still sub judice . It's only the alignment which is under question.. as you know and not the whole project.. Till then its 9% growth onlee, at the expense of the coveted 40000%..enqyoob wrote:If you can't do that, at least quit obstructing those who want to pull India out of the Stone Ages and bring some semblance of hope to our people there.
Last edited by Tilak on 20 Sep 2007 05:46, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.bharatjagran.com/bharat-jagr ... 310307.htmsunilUpa wrote:^^^ Uprabhu, Could you post the link to the above? I would like to see the attachment A
rgsrini
What if the story was that Ravan was handsome and well learned and wooed Sita away from RAm? Ram after all could not stand up for her.
What if Sita eloped and thats what the war was all about. Ram may have won it and then the winners rewrote the story. Happens today - why cannot it happen then.
Thats the story believed by folks in some areas of the south. My take (and I may be wrong) Most people in the south really have very little time for Ram - like it or not it.
Even Tambrahms like us had very little time to Ram - it was Shiv and family allthe time
And of course the Mahabharat -
Does not make them anti hindu??
What if the story was that Ravan was handsome and well learned and wooed Sita away from RAm? Ram after all could not stand up for her.
What if Sita eloped and thats what the war was all about. Ram may have won it and then the winners rewrote the story. Happens today - why cannot it happen then.
Thats the story believed by folks in some areas of the south. My take (and I may be wrong) Most people in the south really have very little time for Ram - like it or not it.
Even Tambrahms like us had very little time to Ram - it was Shiv and family allthe time
And of course the Mahabharat -
Does not make them anti hindu??
Last edited by Surya on 20 Sep 2007 05:57, edited 1 time in total.
N3,
Hindus are just beginning to assert themselves after centuries of humiliation and after experiencing centuries of destruction by Islam and Christianity. IMO this assertiveness will only increase as they become economically independent.
This is not just about Ram Sethu for many Hindus. This is about the way in which their belief and religious sentiment is cast aside by the so called "secular" politicians. It is the politicians who screwed up this development work by unnecessarily dragging hindu belief into the picture. I for one would be glad if this incident makes the "secular" politicians think twice before affending Hindus.
Besides, who is calling for the project to be stopped. As far as I know only a change of alignment is being called for.
About Ram Sethu, I am not sure if you read Rajeev Srinivasan's article in Rediff. He questions the whole benefit of this project and I am not sure if you or anyone has a counter argument to those questions.
Hindus are just beginning to assert themselves after centuries of humiliation and after experiencing centuries of destruction by Islam and Christianity. IMO this assertiveness will only increase as they become economically independent.
This is not just about Ram Sethu for many Hindus. This is about the way in which their belief and religious sentiment is cast aside by the so called "secular" politicians. It is the politicians who screwed up this development work by unnecessarily dragging hindu belief into the picture. I for one would be glad if this incident makes the "secular" politicians think twice before affending Hindus.
Besides, who is calling for the project to be stopped. As far as I know only a change of alignment is being called for.
About Ram Sethu, I am not sure if you read Rajeev Srinivasan's article in Rediff. He questions the whole benefit of this project and I am not sure if you or anyone has a counter argument to those questions.
Theo_fidel:
Ramayana never said the south is rakshasas and asuras. if you know anything about Ramayana, Rama met all of the great sages and munis and rishis in the Dandakaranya and further south of that. Rama was a dark skinned person. all avatars of Vishnu are dark skinned b/c Vishnu himself is dark. if you know the meaning of Krishna, it literally means "Black" in sanskrit and in the case of the avatar, it describes a dark skinned person, a.k.a Lord Krishna.
Ramayana never said the south is rakshasas and asuras. if you know anything about Ramayana, Rama met all of the great sages and munis and rishis in the Dandakaranya and further south of that. Rama was a dark skinned person. all avatars of Vishnu are dark skinned b/c Vishnu himself is dark. if you know the meaning of Krishna, it literally means "Black" in sanskrit and in the case of the avatar, it describes a dark skinned person, a.k.a Lord Krishna.
The fact remains that I can be hindu and do not believ in Ram - thats all I wanted to say
The rest I agree with N3 - if we stop things on every sentimental thing wihtout logic - nothing will get done.
Anyway I am done before the admins come a calling
The rest I agree with N3 - if we stop things on every sentimental thing wihtout logic - nothing will get done.
Anyway I am done before the admins come a calling
Last edited by Surya on 20 Sep 2007 06:21, edited 1 time in total.
Who told you that most people in south have little time for Sri Rama. In andhra, Sri Rama is revered as much as any other god. FYI, Srinivasa, which is the other name of Lord Venkateshwara, is the most popular name. You don't now how ram navami is done in andhra. So please stop posting the misinformation.Surya wrote: Most people in the south really have very little time for Ram - like it or not it.
rgsrini
because previousposts label that idiot Karunanidhi as anti Hindu. I am not sure he is anti hindu - anti Ram definitely
Wish people had this much angst when the b*****d abused the IPKF.
because previousposts label that idiot Karunanidhi as anti Hindu. I am not sure he is anti hindu - anti Ram definitely
Wish people had this much angst when the b*****d abused the IPKF.
Last edited by Surya on 20 Sep 2007 06:29, edited 1 time in total.
PradyD, Even in TN, there are a lot of folks who believe in Ram. He is not the primary focus though.
There is a sect of people who believe "Ravan" is superior to "Ram" and that he was a better "Shiv bakht". But these feelings gained in popularity after Periyar and Anna took center stage in TN politicos and started promoting the cause of "Dravidians" (there are some valid reasons for this as well)
Anyway the thread is deviating from the intended purpose. I thought I should clarify this. Will be more than happy to delete it if admin feels that way.
There is a sect of people who believe "Ravan" is superior to "Ram" and that he was a better "Shiv bakht". But these feelings gained in popularity after Periyar and Anna took center stage in TN politicos and started promoting the cause of "Dravidians" (there are some valid reasons for this as well)
Anyway the thread is deviating from the intended purpose. I thought I should clarify this. Will be more than happy to delete it if admin feels that way.
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Theo_Fidel
I hope the admins will bear with us.PradyD wrote:it is only in TN that there are feelings against Ram. but nowhere else. In AP, Ram is the GOD and is revered alike. same with Kerala and Karnataka Hindus. just b/c some in TN don't doesn't mean whole of South India doesn't.
There doesn't seem any other place to discuss this sort of opposition to development projects.
Remember people this was the same AMMA who demolished all those temples and mosques in her way while building that 6 lane highway to Sri Perumbudur. She now comes on as the defender of the Hindu Faith.
The feelings towards Ram in TN are mostly based on Kamban Ramayan. Distinct from the northern version.
For those who say Ravan is worshiped in the south, cut it out, this is simply not true. And for those who say the Ramayan calls people in the south black, cut it out as well, not true.
It calls people in the south as Ashura's (demons) and monkeys. Peryar hated this enough to swore he worshiped Ravan.
In Kamban Ramayan, Ram and Ravan are presented in shades of grey. There is good and bad with both. For instance the actual punishment for Sita would have been death, because Ram and Lakshman disfigured Ravan's Sister. Ravan actually spares Sita's life but then to save face is forced to kidnap her, this is why he can not return her.
I'm sure there will be a bunch of guys on my neck over this, but this is a fairly strong interpretation in places here. Also Ram abandons Sita eventually and so he is not exactly considered a role model.
Gods like Murugan, Balaji, Mariamman, etc vernacular Tamil deities are much much more popular.
As far as the sentiment of Ram worshipers is considered, have you been to Ayodhya dudes. I have. Armpit of the planet if ever. So I think it is convenient that you crawl out of the wood work right now, when the project is being implemented.
What about that Saraswati river, people are busy digging sand, pumping water and building houses all over her.
Like N3 has said, the actual scope of the "cutting" is so inconsequential the most are baffled by the hysteria.
Of course you will say that is hurting 'sentiment'. but that is precisely the point. There is NO situation where the project can satisfy your sentiment. You want it stopped and logic/reason has no place in your thoughts.
This is what KK is attacking, in his own crazy way. And yes he will be gone one day but trust me his sons are crazier. So are most of the DMK leadership on this issue.
By mobilizing against them you will make the situation worse. They did not have any malicious intent first time around but by provoking them you bet its going to be worse. This why the Ram does not exist statement was slipped in there by Baalu, he was told to do it by KK.
KK is looking for his legacy, Sethu is part of it. You think he or his sons will give up?
May be you need to stick to talking about your church !! and charities you have done. Coz your rhetoric isn't getting you anywhere..Theo_Fidel wrote:As far as the sentiment of Ram worshipers is considered, have you been to Ayodhya dudes. I have. Armpit of the planet if ever. So I think it is convenient that you crawl out of the wood work right now, when the project is being implemented.
Like N3 has said, the actual scope of the "cutting" is so inconsequential the most are baffled by the hysteria.
It's not for you or any one individual to consider it "inconsequential".. Its the will of the majority [A.K.A Democracy] and according to law [SC]. So please..
Added later :
PS: It's not KK, but M.Karunanidhi
Last edited by Tilak on 20 Sep 2007 07:57, edited 1 time in total.
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enqyoobOLD
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About Ram Sethu, I am not sure if you read Rajeev Srinivasan's article in Rediff. He questions the whole benefit of this project and I am not sure if you or anyone has a counter argument to those questions.
Yes, I did, and yes I disagree with him and yes, I do have counter arguments to his questions. For instance,
1. Coastal traffic is low. Yes, because you have to go round SL to go from east to west, so unless you have a big ship, long range, lots of fuel to waste, etc. etc., you can't even go from one part of TN to another.
This is like saying: "India does not need more airports because it has so few airplanes".
2. The tsunami argument again - Rajeev is just parroting the RSS line. Utter garbage. With all respect to him, I don't need his advice on fluid dynamics or wave propagation, and I have already had a deep discussion with Dr. Tad Murthy, the Canadian tsunami expert, who is so cynically misquoted by Kalyanaraman et al. Of course, Kalyanaraman is so confused he doesn't know east from west when he makes his "learned arguments" - but that often happens to people who are parroting lies.
3. Rajeev argues that all big dams are bad for India. Ever heard that before? From Arundhati, Angana, Medha?
So Rajeev would rather see Indian women have to carry pots of water on their head for miles in the sun every day, than have drinking water come to them in canals and pipelines from dams?
Notice that when it comes to political propaganda, the RSS Holies have absolutely no scruples about parroting these anti-Indian elements?
4. Your statement, that "only a realignment is called for, not the cancellation of the project", is a complete misstatement of the truth. The "realignment" called for by the RSS is the absolutely worst thing to do from the tsunami point of view - it will amplify the tsunami right up on the Indian coast, versus the very negligible effect that the present mid-stream dredging would do. This by itself is proof enough that the RSS has either nothing between the ears as they advance these nonsense arguments, or are completely callous about India and Indians, and are only interested in obstructing and making noise and burning buses.
Now, since you asked, do you have counters to what Theo and I posted about the realities of the project?
*******************************************
A small note on the "tsunami washing away kerala thorium sand" which is the other garbage lies spouted by Kalyanaraman et al.
The reason why there was a tsunami on the west coast last time, is rather complex. It wasn't just diffraction of waves around Kanyakumari, which was of course a part of it, but not enough to explain all of it.
What really did the damage to kerala is the fact that the Lakshadweep range under the ocean, REFLECTED the waves that were diffracted, towards Kerala.
Kalyanaraman (and Rajeev, depressingly, parroting him) misquotes something that Tad Murthy said, about channels amplifying tsunamis. It is true that a narrow channel bounded by high walls will amplify the wave - in British Columbia, Washington State and Alaska you will see tsunami warnings even far inland, near the inlets and rivers.
The present canal plan is to dredge a 3m additional depth on top of the Ram Sethu ledge which bounds the southern end of the Palk Strait. This is absolutely negligible in terms of wave energy or ocean water flow rate, compared to what would move through the Indian Ocean south of the Sethu, where the depth starts off at several hundred feet, and rapidly goes down to thousands of feet. The delta-energy and delta-water flow due to the small (3m, across 300m) surface deepening at the Sethu is absolutely negligible.
Alll that Murty said was to reconsider the NORTHERN end opening direction, so that it would not absorb needless tsunami energy. But that is only one side of the story, as Murthy himself admitted when I asked about it. If the opening faces towards the coast, it would get choked up with debris from the backwash from the shore in case of a tsunami, so the canal would become kaput for rescue and resupply right when all the road access points are washed off. So what Murthy suggested was a thoughtless idea, as he admitted when he thought about it. Kalyanaraman cannot be accused of thinking, of course, when the RSS orders him to do something.
Now if the alignment were changed to have the canal deepened in the Pamban, that would be absolutely the worst thing to do from tsunami POV. So much for the RSS' pseudo-science.
From what I saw on the Nuclear Deal "discusssion", a lot of postors are as immune to logic as Kalyanaraman is, but I was REALLY disappointed that Rajeev did not continue his wise policy of not joining this bandwagon.
Theo_fidel:
once again, Ramayana says Demons existed in the south. but never says, south is all demons.
secondly, it is the seccilarists who are provoking the RSS, BJP, etc etc. the RSS is not rallying against DMK, as you say. it is the DMK/Congress, which are antagonizing the other side with their hate-filled statements. until the GoI said Ram didn't exist, the opposition wasn't that united. now they are all united b/c of the liberals, not the opposite way which you claim.
yes, i have been to Ayodhya. it is an underdeveloped region. so, you might find people who are a little rough.
also, have you ever been to Mecca? there, they cut off your body parts if you go anywhere near the holy spot. compared to that the evil yindoos' behavior in Ayodhya is much better. once again, hyprocrisy of leftists at its highest is seen in you.
once again, Ramayana says Demons existed in the south. but never says, south is all demons.
secondly, it is the seccilarists who are provoking the RSS, BJP, etc etc. the RSS is not rallying against DMK, as you say. it is the DMK/Congress, which are antagonizing the other side with their hate-filled statements. until the GoI said Ram didn't exist, the opposition wasn't that united. now they are all united b/c of the liberals, not the opposite way which you claim.
yes, i have been to Ayodhya. it is an underdeveloped region. so, you might find people who are a little rough.
also, have you ever been to Mecca? there, they cut off your body parts if you go anywhere near the holy spot. compared to that the evil yindoos' behavior in Ayodhya is much better. once again, hyprocrisy of leftists at its highest is seen in you.
How can it be a misstatement ?enqyoob wrote:4. Your statement, that "only a realignment is called for, not the cancellation of the project", is a complete misstatement of the truth.
LinkPrasad, however, was defensive when asked whether the BJP would put realignment of the Palk Strait shipping canal project on its manifesto.
"It would be demeaning to make this an election issue," he said, but hastened to add that the party did pass a resolution opposing the Sethusamudram project in its present alignment at its national executive.
Opinion on "Alleged Demerits of re-alignment" :
The "realignment" called for by the RSS is the absolutely worst thing to do from the tsunami point of view - it will amplify the tsunami right up on the Indian coast, versus the very negligible effect that the present mid-stream dredging would do. This by itself is proof enough that the RSS has either nothing between the ears as they advance these nonsense arguments, or are completely callous about India and Indians, and are only interested in obstructing and making noise and burning buses.
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Bade
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A zimble question onlee....
If the additional dredging required is only 3 m to get a 12m draft for the channel, with all the global warming scenarios modeled by the first world powers and the latest satellite imagery of melting ice caps as fresh evidence we may have to wait only a little longer to get a 12m draft without spending anymore on dredging. We have already waited 1.7 million years so what will another 100 years do to make it any worse ?
This will keep both the spiritualists and materialists happy. Maybe, Shri Ram in his infinite wisdom has already ordained this.
BTW, I was under the impression that the Cochin shipping channel was only 12m deep hence Trivandrum was lobbying for the Vizhijam port claiming deeper depth for larger ships that ply the international route on the west coast. So where will that leave the sethu-samudram project ?
If the additional dredging required is only 3 m to get a 12m draft for the channel, with all the global warming scenarios modeled by the first world powers and the latest satellite imagery of melting ice caps as fresh evidence we may have to wait only a little longer to get a 12m draft without spending anymore on dredging. We have already waited 1.7 million years so what will another 100 years do to make it any worse ?
This will keep both the spiritualists and materialists happy. Maybe, Shri Ram in his infinite wisdom has already ordained this.
BTW, I was under the impression that the Cochin shipping channel was only 12m deep hence Trivandrum was lobbying for the Vizhijam port claiming deeper depth for larger ships that ply the international route on the west coast. So where will that leave the sethu-samudram project ?
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enqyoobOLD
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Bade: OTOH, the RSS, the DMK, the CONGI, AIAAADMKJ, and CPIMAO and the Al Qaeda may burn all the buses, trains and piers in TN, so all ships will completely avoid TN and go around Indonesia instead to get from Bay of Bengal to Mumbai.
Tad Murty says that there will be a tsunami every 75 years, sort-of like Halley's comet. So the next one may wash Chennai into the Palk strait, and it will just wash up against the Sethu, so ppl can just go in rickshaws from Dhanushkodi to Talaimannar. Or the next cyclone may make the Cooum River overflow, and just the stink will push Sri Lanka away some 3 miles to the south, making a channel deep enuf for aircraft carriers.
I don't think the Vizhinjam port has much impact either way. The canal is mostly for coastal traffic and small freighters and maybe Navy destroyers and frigates. No supertankers and no aircraft carriers.
OTOH, most things that can go through the Panama Canal can go through this as well:
I had not realized this - the propaganda was that only tiny boats could go through, which is not true at all. Obviously you would not send a fully loaded 12m draft ship through a canal that is only 12m deep, so it will have to be lighter-loaded.
Today's size limits are Suez-Max (around 15 m draft) and MalaccaMax (16m).
The depth limitation is not the Sethu region - the whole place north of the Sethu, for some 80 miles north, is very shallow, so it would be too expensive to make it 16m deep, I guess.
(but then again, it is possible that in future, the Ravana-bhakta commie Xtist Pakis
would want to make the whole canal deeper, and cut further into the Holy Sethu.
Srini: Yes, I know, the BJP/RSS SAYS that they are not "against the project", except that they are against any feasible FORM of the project. Like I said, the "alignment" that they suggest is REALLY stupid by their own propaganda criteria (tsunami risk), and was rejected a long time ago. So I am not saying YOU are misstating the facts, but those whom you quote are.
Tad Murty says that there will be a tsunami every 75 years, sort-of like Halley's comet. So the next one may wash Chennai into the Palk strait, and it will just wash up against the Sethu, so ppl can just go in rickshaws from Dhanushkodi to Talaimannar. Or the next cyclone may make the Cooum River overflow, and just the stink will push Sri Lanka away some 3 miles to the south, making a channel deep enuf for aircraft carriers.
I don't think the Vizhinjam port has much impact either way. The canal is mostly for coastal traffic and small freighters and maybe Navy destroyers and frigates. No supertankers and no aircraft carriers.
OTOH, most things that can go through the Panama Canal can go through this as well:
The hull dimensions of the largest container ships, the so-called Panamax-size vessels, were limited by the length and breadth of the lock chambers of the Panama Canal, i.e. a max. ship breadth (beam) of 32.3 m, a max. overall ship length of 294.1 m (965 ft), and a max. draught of 12.0 m (39.5 ft). Panama Canal lock chambers are 305 m long and 33.5 m wide, and the largest depth of the canal is 12.5-13.7 m. The canal is about 86 km long, and passage takes eight hours.
I had not realized this - the propaganda was that only tiny boats could go through, which is not true at all. Obviously you would not send a fully loaded 12m draft ship through a canal that is only 12m deep, so it will have to be lighter-loaded.
Today's size limits are Suez-Max (around 15 m draft) and MalaccaMax (16m).
The depth limitation is not the Sethu region - the whole place north of the Sethu, for some 80 miles north, is very shallow, so it would be too expensive to make it 16m deep, I guess.
(but then again, it is possible that in future, the Ravana-bhakta commie Xtist Pakis
would want to make the whole canal deeper, and cut further into the Holy Sethu. Srini: Yes, I know, the BJP/RSS SAYS that they are not "against the project", except that they are against any feasible FORM of the project. Like I said, the "alignment" that they suggest is REALLY stupid by their own propaganda criteria (tsunami risk), and was rejected a long time ago. So I am not saying YOU are misstating the facts, but those whom you quote are.
Theo wrt to rameshwaram you said ...
A more blighted place cannot be imagined except maybe in Sudan or Pakistan.
but aren't the troubles of south TN a governance failure?
tilak saar. humbly request you to stfu. (hrystfu).
stuff like what is compiled in this thread you wouldn't get on a paid subscription. request you not to derail it.
A more blighted place cannot be imagined except maybe in Sudan or Pakistan.
but aren't the troubles of south TN a governance failure?
tilak saar. humbly request you to stfu. (hrystfu).
stuff like what is compiled in this thread you wouldn't get on a paid subscription. request you not to derail it.
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abhischekcc
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FYKI, ravan is shown to be tall, fair and ...Surya wrote:Isn't it racism to depict Ravan and his people as dark and ugly beings? one could go on this.
It is Ram that is short and dark.
No, in fact this is a clever attack by a certain Western community on this country.Fact is this is all politics
Your wish will come true. Hindus have learnt to pay back in the same coin. Note the attack on Karunashity's daughter. Must have hurt the old bugger more than Jayalalitha becoming CM.Wish Karunanidhi had been crucified for his behaviour against the IPKF.
Enqyoob:
As someone said before most sane elements dont give a rat's ass about who built what. The thing that got my goat was the affidavit that was filed. Technically, the ASI was right of course... but as usual its the double standards that were followed that gets us riled up. Would the government have said Allah/Muhammed/JC/Flying Spagghetti monster doesnt exist? And what do you think about the gratuitous remarks of Karunanidhi? Would he say that Muhammed was a child molester in a public forum? The blatant duplicity and derision handed out to the majority religion results in a backlash, which says if the government can be so insensitive and irrational, why not try our irrationality for a change since its the only language the government seems to understand.
As someone said before most sane elements dont give a rat's ass about who built what. The thing that got my goat was the affidavit that was filed. Technically, the ASI was right of course... but as usual its the double standards that were followed that gets us riled up. Would the government have said Allah/Muhammed/JC/Flying Spagghetti monster doesnt exist? And what do you think about the gratuitous remarks of Karunanidhi? Would he say that Muhammed was a child molester in a public forum? The blatant duplicity and derision handed out to the majority religion results in a backlash, which says if the government can be so insensitive and irrational, why not try our irrationality for a change since its the only language the government seems to understand.
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Theo_Fidel
This is true.enqyoob wrote:The depth limitation is not the Sethu region - the whole place north of the Sethu, for some 80 miles north, is very shallow, so it would be too expensive to make it 16m deep, I guess.
The change was planned as a compromise. There are provisions to go Post Panamax in depth in future. This is why the planned channel is 300ft. Even post Suezmax width will increase from 200ft to 250ft. So there will not be more Ram Sethu removal at any point in the future.
There was also a huge amount of debris to deposited in 1500ft+ deep ocean on the east side that lanka objected to, so the dredging requirements were reduced. Why this would be a problem who knows.
East coast ports are not deep enough to take Post Panamax yet. And as 90%+ of present traffic is Panamax and under it was thought to prudent to lower capacity initially.
Also please note that SuezMax is 16 m depth and there are super tankers of 18m+ that are post suez max.
Both Panama & Suez have massive building programs to increase draft to 18m+.
As far as governance problems in South TN yes the entire South TN suffers from neglect. It is only the Kovai to Chennai North belt that is booming. There have even been separatist noises made but all died once people realized cauvery would stay in the North. The TN govt. is finally trying to rectify this and Setu is part of this program to expand and connect Tuti port to the North.
The lack of toilet facilities is a common problem in the south, there are even hints that some people might prefer it that way, Al Fresco. What I was pointing out is that if you wish to give greater Sentimental Heritage Status to the area then you should commit to raising it above the surrounding areas.
Just simply opposing the Ram Setu and walking away as most of the Dilli Billi's intend to do, just will not do.
If your sentiment is so great how about compensating TN for the opportunity costs. Roughly Rs 2000 crore or so per year. And this is in Raw dollars. And don't pay us from the exchequer funds. Set up a Ram Setu heritage fund and all people whose sentiment is being hurt should have their paycheck deducted at source for the required amount every month/year. I didn't think so.
While we are at this let me point out that all other alignments will also cut through Dugong sanctuaries, also known as Sea Cows, Holy Cow. This thing could not get more ironic only.
http://sethusamudram.gov.in/CoralPhoto.asp
Also see above link to the coral reef the Holies prefer to bulldoze. I've spent many an hour lazing through the waters over these. Coral reefs in India are amongst the most accessible as there are reefs at 10 feet depth or less about 200 feet out in some areas. Most of these have been destroyed else where. That brain coral in picture 2 is probably a 100-200 years old.
Here is my take!!
Ramayana teaches us
A hero is he/she who
"Always keep promises and respect elders" Rama promised his mother to go into forest and respected his parents., though he accidentally killed Shravan and regrets it.
"Fights for his Dharama i.e. Righteous deeds against all odds"
Villain is he/she who
"is not egoistic as Ravana despite being a very well learned man"
And at last... Ramayana teaches us
Satyamev Jayate i.e. "Truth alone Triumphs"
so!! the truth is that this channel will help reduce the cost of traffic between Bombay and Calcutta (east and west coast of India)
so!! Government of India along with Government of Srilanka should create an artificial bridge (like in florida keys) to represent the real Rama Bridge and then also create the channel.
"Satyamev Jayate" i.e. "Truth alone Triumphs"
Ramayana teaches us
A hero is he/she who
"Always keep promises and respect elders" Rama promised his mother to go into forest and respected his parents., though he accidentally killed Shravan and regrets it.
"Fights for his Dharama i.e. Righteous deeds against all odds"
Villain is he/she who
"is not egoistic as Ravana despite being a very well learned man"
And at last... Ramayana teaches us
Satyamev Jayate i.e. "Truth alone Triumphs"
so!! the truth is that this channel will help reduce the cost of traffic between Bombay and Calcutta (east and west coast of India)
so!! Government of India along with Government of Srilanka should create an artificial bridge (like in florida keys) to represent the real Rama Bridge and then also create the channel.
"Satyamev Jayate" i.e. "Truth alone Triumphs"