The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

[JaiS]

Shankar,

The Su-47 airframe is not going to be used as such for the PAK-FA if we are to go by the words of Sukhoi director, Mikhail Simonov and not by your 'thoughts' and 'feelings'. This has already been posted in this thread before, so please take the time to read what has already been posted in here.

Is it very difficult for you to post sources to every single cut copy paste article which you post ? Geocities is not exactly a valid source if you know what I mean. Anyone can post anything on www.geocities.com.

Also, please stop posting about the differences between the MKI and MKK in this thread. This is the PAK FA thread if you haven't read the title already.

[JaiS]

INDIA MAY HELP RUSSIA DEVELOP FIGHTERS

RIA Novosti

December 02, 2004


NEW DELHI, December 2 (RIA Novosti) - Russia can independently develop fifth generation fighters in 5-7 years, but foreign capital can considerably reduce the timeframe, Anatoli Mazurkevich, head of the Defense Ministry's main board for international military cooperation, told RIA Novosti in an interview.

Mr. Mazurkevich is currently in New Delhi as part of an official delegation from the Defense Ministry.

Fifth generation fighters have not been developed yet. He said that Russia could develop them with foreign countries. Russia has already made this proposal to India and France.

Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov told journalists in New Delhi that most likely the fighters would be developed with India.

"I am pessimistic about France," Mr. Ivanov said. "We will have other plans with France."

Mr. Mazurkevich told RIA Novosti that Russia could decide to develop the fifth generation fighters alone.

"We will develop these fighters anyway," he said. "International cooperation would certainly help us, but we can do it ourselves."

[JaiS]

RUSSIA-AVIATION-RADAR-DEVELOPMENT

September 7, 2005, Wednesday

Interfax-AVN



Radar for fifth-generation fighter to be based on current developments

'- The research and technical backlog
obtained during the development of the Irbis onboard radar will be used
in the development of the radar for a fifth-generation fighter, Yury
Bely, director general of the Tikhomirov Instrument Engineering R&D
Institute, said on Wednesday.

"Up to 70 percent of research and technical solutions and the
research and technical backlog obtained during the development of the
Irbis onboard radar will be used in the development of an active phased
array radar for the future frontline aircraft," Bely told Interfax-
Military News Agency.


According to him, the Irbis radar is intended for mounting on
fighters of the so-called transition stage, such as the Su-35. These
fighters will be offered on the market before the export-oriented
variety of the future fifth-generation frontline aircraft is put into
mass production.

"Irbis will most likely be the last radar with passive phased
array. Architecture of the locator and computation assets in Irbis is
designed to serve as an intermediary to the future active phased array,"
Bely said.

He noted that Irbis incorporates the entire research and technical
backlog created in developing the Bars radar, which equips Su-30MKI
multi-role fighters, and the Zaslon radar, which equips the MiG-31
interception fighter.

[JaiS]

MATERIAL SCIENCE RESEARCH COMPANY TO PRODUCE COMPOSITE MATERIALS FOR RUSSIAN PLANES OF 5TH GENERATION

March 5, 2005

ARMINFO News Agency

YEREVAN, MARCH 5. ARMINFO. Moscow Aviation Institute has ordered Material Science research company to produce composite materials for thermal protection of the units of Russian 5th generation planes, says the company's director Mikael Abovyan.


More specifically the institute is going to order heat resistance glasses for composite heat resistance materials used by air and space craft. Abovyan says that his company is still the CIS monopolist in heat resistance glass production.

[JaiS]

INDIAN PRESIDENT IN RUSSIA URGES JOINT PRODUCTION OF FIGHTER JETS

BBC Monitoring International Reports

Text of report by Indian Doordarshan TV on 24 May

May 24, 2005


President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, now on a visit to Russia, yesterday visited Russia's warplanes manufacturing unit Sukhoi Design Bureau. He also advocated undertaking joint development of warplanes and civilian jets by both countries.

The president was of the opinion that India-Russian aircraft manufacturing venture should be based on the model of supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, which has been jointly developed by both countries.

[Begin Kalam recording, in English, in progress] ...is a design, development of a supersonic cruise missile is the world class. When two countries join together, it is the world class missile system. [End of recording]

Talks were being held for a long time on the proposal to jointly develop fifth generation fighter aircraft, but the project is now moving forward due to the progress made on an intellectual property rights agreement between India and Russia.

[Kalam, in English] Right now, they have reached the final (phase). There was one proposal from Russia, another proposal from India. Now it is time to getting merged. I think the tasking has been formed to [words indistinct] in a few weeks time or months time the finalized joint working of intellectual property right.

Source: Doordarshan television, New Delhi, in Hindi 0130 gmt 24 May 05

BBC Monitoring

[JaiS]

RUSSIA-PLANE-DEVELOPMENT

September 19, 2005, Monday

Interfax-AVN



Yakovlev design bureau suspends involvement in 5th generation fighter development

'- The Yakovlev design bureau has
suspended its participation in research, development and tests related
to the creation of the fifth-generation fighter.

"This is motivated by changes in technical requirements of the main
customer," Yakovlev Director General Oleg Demchenko told Interfax-
Military News Agency on Monday.


He recalled that the bureau until recently was the subcontractor,
while the Sukhoi aircraft holding company was the chief developer.

"The Yakovlev design bureau accumulated unique experience in design
and tests of STOL planes, such as the Yak-38 and Yak-141, and planned to
use this research and technical backlog in creation of the future
frontline aircraft," Demchenko said.

He explained that "very tough requirements to the length of the
runway were set" at the stage of pre-design competition, "but today the
technical requirements have been changed."

"During the defense of the conceptual design, the customer's
requirements to keeping take-off and landing short were changed due to a
considerable rise in the cost of the project and the entire program," he
said.

Demchenko stressed that "considerable reduction of the take-off and
landing run for future attack aircraft remains in the program's concept,
but will be effected some time later."

He did not rule out Yakovlev's participation in the program in the
future, but said that "the company's involvement in the development of
the plane at any stage depends on the chief developer."

[JaiS]

No new air engines developed in Russia in last 15 years - expert

Russia Defense Industry Weekly

October 28, 2005


Enterprises have almost stopped developing new air engines entirely, said Viktor Chuiko, president of the Union of Air Engine Building.

"Russia has not developed any new engines in the past 15 years," Chuiko told Interfax-Military News Agency on Tuesday.

According to him, all the efforts of major developers of engines for aircraft have been lately aimed at modernization of earlier models, and auxiliary units and accessories.

"We sent a letter to the Russian government recently urging it to take steps to revive national engine building, however, no replies have been received from it so far," he said.

There is no official aircraft building strategy in the country, nor is there a federal agency responsible for coordination of efforts in the sector, Chuiko said. "Control over aviation industry has been lost and nothing is being done to regain it, which in the long run must have catastrophic consequences," he noted.

The official pointed out that the incorporation of a joint national aircraft building company is a really good decision. "However, the corporation is being formed in a very non-transparent manner, without precise technical and economical grounds behind, and without a clearly defined model line of future aircraft," he added.

According to him, a couple of Russian air engine builders have good ideas, including the ones concerning an engine to propel the fifth generation fighter, the Russian Regional Jet, the new trainer and combat trainer, but these projects will never be realized unless serious state support and funding are provided to them.

[JaiS]

Interview with Yuri Lastochkin, General Director of Saturn NPO

2001 (November-December)

Source : Eksport Vooruzheniy Journal

Saturn NPO has the highest ratio of renewal of capital assets of 10% in the Russian engineering industry. It employs over 5,000 highly professional designers. In 1997 Rybinsk Motors engine plant merged with the Rybinsk Engine-Building Design Bureau. In 1999 Rybinsk Motors acquired the production facilities of the Volga Engineering Plant – a major plant of the Atomic Energy Ministry. On July 5, 2001, Rybinsk Motors JSC merged with A. Lyulka-Saturn, a leading Russian aircraft engine design bureau, to form Saturn Scientific Production Association Joint Stock Company (Saturn NPO JSC). Today Saturn is a vertically integrated flexible corporation capable of comprehensively tackling the task of developing, manufacturing, maintaining and repairing up-to-date gas turbine equipment.


Q. Could you say what R&D programs Saturn is currently working on?

A. On the whole, work is done in two directions. One the one hand, it is the development of a fifth generation engine. It differs from previous domestic designs by minimal dimensions, a high degree of aerodynamic perfection, a 15% boost in thrust, a 12% rise in the temperature of gas before the turbine, a significant reduction in the number of compressor stages, and increased pressure in the compressor. For the first time in the Russian aircraft engine making it will employ advanced composite materials of a new generation.


Q. What can you say about the state of AL-41 engine for advanced combat aircraft systems?

A. Combat aviation is facing a huge number of tasks. As a result combat systems are becoming very complex and multifunctional. Our strike aircraft systems are heavier than in the West. They are not worse but our radars are heavier, our avionics is heavier. There is a whole family of AL-41 engines with varying lengths of service life. Correspondingly, this weight requires guaranteed additional thrust. We are trying to reach this objective in our work on AL-41.

Saturn is the only entity in Russia today developing such an engine. It has been flight-tested on the 1.44 aircraft developed at the MiG design bureau. A comprehensive program has been mapped out. An engine with thrust vectoring capability, a new fan and thrust of 14.5 tones will be assembled on the basis of AL-31FP this year.

Saturn is taking part in the work at orders from the Defense Ministry. The facility in Rybinsk will manufacture test samples of the fifth generation engine and correspondingly adopt new technologies on a mass scale. According to plan, the core assembly facility will also be located there. One engine costs over $3 million. It takes 3 to 5 years to launch its production. This is a very big and important job.


Q. So far Rybinsk Motors has been manufacturing engines of the third generation. There is the opinion that the production capacities of your plant simply do not meet the production requirements of fifth generation engines.

A. On the whole Saturn is the leader in its sphere today. We are the second in the country after Irkutsk Aviation Production Association in the application of computer technologies in designing. Both the production and test-designing facilities of the company are furnished with modern equipment permitting to produce qualitatively new goods.

The industrial potential of Saturn meets the requirements to the production of fifth generation gas turbine equipment. Otherwise there would not have been the decision of the Russian government to give us the status of the core developer and producer of the AL-41 engine. All the rest is idle invention and black PR that can be accounted simply to competition in the industry.

Where is the country’s best casting production located? At the Moscow site of Saturn. Where is the most modern facility for testing military engines located? In Turayevo near Moscow at the Saturn facility where thrust vectoring engines are tested in conditions simulating actual operating situations. The preparedness of production is the main quality on which the fast and high quality production of any engine depends. This aspect has become one of the most important for us. Comprehensive computerization has been carried out and a program of computer technologies covering the entire enterprise is under implementation. Go-through technologies of designing and manufacturing are been mastered. The reconstruction of the research and testing facilities has been completed.

Indisputably we have problems the same as any other plant. But there are no more of them than elsewhere, but they are resolved at Saturn much faster.

[JaiS]

Russia, India set to develop fifth-generation fighter

15/11/2007

Under an intergovernmental agreement due to be signed in Moscow in the next few days, Russia and India will jointly implement a $10 billion fifth-generation fighter program over several decades on a parity basis.

Sources in the Russian aviation industry said the agreement would be signed on October 17.

Mikhail Pogosyan, CEO of aircraft producer Sukhoi, said the entire program would be based on Russia's T-50/I-21 project. He said Russia would contribute most engineering solutions during the program's initial stage, and that India would largely provide financial support.

Pogosyan said the new warplane would have to meet Indian Air Force requirements, that Indian engineers would eventually upgrade it, and that this would account for 50% of the entire program.

Air Force Commander Alexander Zelin said the fifth-generation fighter's first version would take off by late 2009, and that its production versions would be purchased as of 2010. He said the second version, due to be bought by 2015, would match all air force requirements.

[Sumeet]

Jai,

thanks a lot for your articles here. This is the best collection on PAK-FA i have ever seen. At this pace soon we will have russian journalist also stopping over here to brush up info for their articles.

[JaiS]

Thanks for the kind words Sumeet.

Generation Game; Russia and India close in on fighter deal to secure collaborative development

Aviation Week & Space Technology

October 22, 2007

Alexey Komarov

Moscow and New Delhi may have finally struck a deal on a future fighter partnership, but exactly what input India will have, and what it will eventually receive, remains to be hammered out.

Russia Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov met with India?s Defense Minister A.K. Antony last week to discuss the collaboration. India has been interested in participating in Russia?s fifth-generation fighter for several years. The country has been courted by both Sukhoi and MiG.

Sukhoi is presently developing the only "official" next-generation fighter for the Russian air force, the T-50, to meet the service's requirement, known as PAK FA. MiG continues to work on designs for a medium-fighter smaller than the T-50. The ( Russian ) air force's commitment to the aircraft appears to have strongly influenced India's decision.

The countries signed a protocol in January that led to 'contractual work for Indian accession to the project,' according to former Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov.

In response to the Russian proposal India agreed to take up co-design, co-development and co-production of the aircraft by Hindustan Aeronautics, with Sukhoi Design Bureau, stated the January protocol.

Mikhail Pogosyan, head of Sukhoi, says the latest agreement covers equal participation of both countries. It will be fifty-fifty cooperation in intellectual property and in funding, he says. The Indian version of the T-50 will include national requirements. Pogosyan suggests this joint effort will also lead to the development of a carrier-based derivative of the aircraft.

However, before this happens, both countries will need to amend legislation covering defense development to provide a framework for efficient and practical collaboration. Until now Russo-Indian defense deals have been regulated as 'purchaser-seller' arrangements. Plans to jointly develop the Medium Transport Aircraft have been hindered by the lack of an appropriate legal framework, though there are indications that this program could get the long-awaited go-ahead in November.

Securing India's involvement will provide additional funds for the T-50. Though launched in 2002, the program continues to lack adequate national backing. Initially, Sukhoi officials suggested development of the aircraft would be an extraordinarily modest $1 billion. The total cost, including development of new engines, avionics and weapons, has since climbed to almost $10 billion.

Indian defense ministry sources suggest the details of the agreement, including costs, workshare and intellectual property issues, will be defined later. While Indian industry will be only 'somewhat involved' in developing the initial production version, this will increase as modifications and upgrades of the baseline PAK FA are defined.

The T-50 is now expected to be flown in 2009 and the Russian air force is to begin to take delivery around 2015. India expects the first of its aircraft by 2017.

The arrangement builds on the Sukhoi Su-30MKI program, which saw Russia modify the Su-30 variant of the Flanker to meet India?s requirements. Indian engineers helped to develop the MKI, and some of the avionics were provided by local industry.

With Douglas Barrie in London.

[JaiS]

Though India has decided to go in for Sukhoi's 5G plane, it will be interesting to see what MiG is doing.

Successful Russian military collaboration has been almost exclusively restricted to Moscow's traditional defense partners


Aviation Week & Space Technology

March 13, 2006

Douglas Barrie; Alexey Komarov

Russia's PAK FA program to develop a next-generation fighter for the air force initially focused on the Sukhoi T-50. This is a design in a class similar to the Su-27, and as such, would leave the air force struggling to buy the aircraft in anything approaching adequate numbers to replace both the Flanker and the Fulcrum.

MiG, which is now under the wing of Irkut, has quietly been working the corridors in the Kremlin, putting the case for a light-to-medium fighter complement to the PAK FA. At the same time it has been wind-tunnel testing single- and twin-engine airframe configurations.

With Moscow struggling to adequately fund even one fighter development, the only route to pursing a complement is through joint development. The Russian air force has begun to show interest in a light-to-medium fighter to be purchased along with the PAK FA. ( My comment : This was in 2006, but now Officially VVS is supporting just the T-50 )

[JaiS]

After a decade of disarray, the Russian air force could finally have a credible fighter program

Aviation Week & Space Technology
World News & Analysis; Pg. 23 Vol. 166 No. 16

April 23, 2007

Alexey Komarov; Douglas Barrie


The Russian air force plans to start acceptance trials of its next-generation fighter in 2012, while the government moves to provide badly needed support for the aircraft's weapons suite.

First flight of the Sukhoi T-50, selected in 2002 to meet the air force's future fighter requirement (known by the Russian acronym PAK FA), is expected in 2009. PAK FA is a twin-engine fighter in the class of the Su-27 Flanker.

After years of turmoil in its future-fighter planning, the air force suggests it's getting back on track. The service's deputy chief, Gen. Alexander Zelenin, says development of the fifth-generation fighter is on schedule.

Russia also continues to negotiate a bilateral agreement with India that will allow the latter to participate in the T-50 program. Indian involvement would also provide valuable financial support.

The air force has already approved an "electronic mockup" of the aircraft. Sukhoi, meanwhile, is preparing the manufacturing documentation for the first prototypes. Along with single-seat baseline aircraft, Sukhoi is considering a naval version, as well as two-seat and special mission aircraft.

Earlier this month, the government also reviewed its guided-weapons road map. Until recently, Russia's air-to-air missile plans seemed to have been in abeyance for the better part of a decade because of inadequate funding.

Sukhoi has also agreed on the industrial manufacturing structure for the fighter. The Novosibirsk Aircraft Production Organization (NAPO) will be responsible for the forward section of the fuselage. The Komsomolsk-on-Amur site will be responsible for final assembly, along with the manufacture of the remaining main structures.

The T-50 engine program is led by NPO Saturn, although the effort involves most of the country's main engine design facilities and research institutes. Saturn is developing a scalable turbofan design, with the aim being to produce both higher efficiency and reliability.

Along with the T-50, Saturn is looking at an engine version to power a single-seat fighter. While it lost out to Sukhoi for the PAK FA requirement, MiG is continuing to carry out design work on an advanced light fighter. This project also has supporters within the military as a complement to the larger T-50. Another potential application for a further derated version of the engine would be for an unmanned combat air vehicle.

Meanwhile, engine research has also suffered from a lack of funding. Industry sources previously suggested that state support for this area had all but dried up. Fresh funding is now expected to come onstream during the course of this year.

Saturn has been introducing elements of a next-generation engine on the latest version of the AL-31F design for the Flanker. Dubbed "Article 117S," the engine is intended for the Su-35 fighter. It has a thrust of 14.5 metric tons, about two tons more than basic Al-31F. The first 117S engines have already passed flight tests and soon will be shipped for installation on the Su-35 prototype. Industry sources suggest the aircraft will be able to supercruise in some configurations with the improved engines.

While the Su-35 is being positioned primarily as an export product, Sukhoi is also eager to see the Russian air force adopt the aircraft. Several of the avionics systems planned for the Su-35 will also be used as the basis of equipment for the T-50. These include the cockpit layout, software and design of the man-machine interface, weapons control system and sensor integration, and tactical awareness and warning system.

The government is determined to ensure that weapon programs associated with the fifth-generation fighter receive adequate support. Earlier this month, the government's Military-Industrial Commission reviewed a draft of its "Program of Airborne Weapon Development Through 2015" document. This is intended to "consolidate financial, research, design, manufacturing and organizational resources" to achieve program goals, according to Sergei Ivanov, the head of the commission.

The government aims to spend 60 billion rubles ($2.3 billion) through 2015 on development, manufacturing and support of airborne weapons. Research and development funding is planned to be increased by 200-250%.

Vympel, now part of Tactical Missile Systems, has had a next-generation dogfight air-to-air missile, the K-30, also known as the Izdeliye (Article) 300 program, for more than a decade. However, lack of funding has until now hampered development. Vympel is also working on a midlife update of the R-77 (AA-12 Adder) medium-range radar-guided air-to-air missile. This project is known as the K-77M. A long-range missile, the Izdeliye 810, is also being designed. All three of these developments are intended for the PAK FA.

[JCage]

Key avionics details of the PAK-FA at MAKs (thanks Pit)-

Show reveals details on key T-50 systems

by Piotr Butowski :

Summary:

On display were parts of the Tikhomirov NIIP radar design bureau's Sh-121 radar set, a mock-up of the Tactical Missile Corporation's (TMC's) Kh-38ME tactical surface-to-air missile (SAM), information on other potential weapons including the Kh-58UShKE anti-radar missile and the Kh-31AD anti-ship missile, and NPO Saturn's 117S engine (an improved version of the Sukhoi Su-27's AL-31F).

Rest summarized.

NIIP showed a part of the Sh-121 radar set, basically a subportion of the X Band radar and a part of the L Band IFF.

SH-121 will also include a podded Ka band radar and an EW suite.

X Band radar is a derivative of the Zhuk AE but different. NIIPs radar uses a structure with many Tx/Rx modules. Phazas has 4 Tx/Rx modules per module.

Two NIIP strips with the Tx/Rx modules were shown. One with 12, another with 16. NIIP says radar will have +/- 60 degree scan angles.

Final engine for the PAK-FA will be ~147-157 KN. Competition between SALUT and SATURN.

Kh-58UShE ARM, is meant for internal carriage and is 4.7 m long and has a 15,000 m (49,000 ft) launch weight of about 650 kg with a maximum range of 200 km when launched from an altitude of 15 km at M1.5 or 75 km at the same speed from 200 m.

[Igorr]

NIIP showed a part of the Sh-121 radar set, basically a subportion of the X Band radar and a part of the L Band IFF.

SH-121 will also include a podded Ka band radar and an EW suite.

X Band radar is a derivative of the Zhuk AE but different. NIIPs radar uses a structure with many Tx/Rx modules. Phazas has 4 Tx/Rx modules per module.

Two NIIP strips with the Tx/Rx modules were shown. One with 12, another with 16. NIIP says radar will have +/- 60 degree scan angles.

Illustrations:

[JaiS]

Indo-Russian 5th generation fighter to take-off by 2012

Moscow (PTI): The Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGA) will make its maiden flight by 2012, according to a top Russian Air Force official.

India and Russia signed an inter-governmental agreement earlier this month to jointly develop and produce the futuristic multi-role stealth fighter on the basis of Sukhoi Corporation's super secret PAK-FA project.

"The deadlines have been set - it must take to the skies in 2012 and enter service in 2015," Russian vice Air Chief Lt Gen Igor Sadofyev was quoted as saying by RIA Novosti.

Commenting on the FGA agreement signed on October 18 here in the presence of visiting Defence Minister A K Antony, Gen Sadofyev said that the bilateral cooperation on the project would significantly boost the development of fighter capable of taking on the US-British Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) F-35.

"International cooperation and joint development efforts will certainly expedite the process. It's a path the whole world is taking now a days, and we are no exception," Gen Sadofyev said.

[JaiS]

X-posting, thanks to JCage.

Article on the PAK-FA

Source : Defense Technology International - June 2007

Turn to page 22-23 for the PAK-FA article. IMO, the most important excerpt from the article is :

[Neshant]

India's involvement in the PAK-FA increasingly looks irrelavant or of marginal value.

We are paying a king's ransom to be involved in a project that is entirely the work of Russian R&D from the engine to the avionics even to the airframe. Indian R&D will gain nothing from this. Another TOT in the making?

[negi]

I dont get this where ever I have read about the 117S the articles say "engine has a large afterburner for super sonic cruise" .From whatever I know of Super cruise from www its the ability of an AC to sustain Mach1+ speeds without having to use the reheat (I am not sure if one needs light the ABs when trying to cross the sound barrier though).

What is the bypass ratio of 117s is it on a higher side like AL-31 ?

[JaiS]

negi,

data regarding the BPR of 117S is hard to come by. This is what I have

NPO Saturn Developing Two Aircraft Engines Simultaneously for Future Fighters

The 117S engine was able to raise maximum thrust from 12.5 to 14.5 tonnes in flight tests that took place on an Su-27M airplane (T10M-10). A new fan with the diameter increased from 905 millimeters to 932 millimeters, new high and low pressure turbines, a new digital control system and a vectored thrust system were used on the engine.


Source: 29.09.06, AviaPort.RU, Correspondent: Dmitriy Kozlov

[gopal.suri]

India's involvement in the PAK-FA increasingly looks irrelavant or of marginal value.

We are paying a king's ransom to be involved in a project that is entirely the work of Russian R&D from the engine to the avionics even to the airframe. Indian R&D will gain nothing from this. Another TOT in the making?

India outlines 5th gen fighter deal

Joint development and certification of a Prospective Multi-role Fighter (PMF); Preparation and set up of the fighter serial production; joint production and sale of the fighter; Joint marketing in third countries etc.

The fighter will be designed and developed in accordance with the technical requirements of Russian Air Force and Indian Air Force.

[JaiS]

A Paper Tender

Source: 19.07.07, Vremya Novostey, Correspondent: Nikolay Poroskov



Translation Credits : Roy FC


Composites and high technology products are used widely in the future tactical aviation aircraft complex (PAK FA), which they call more often a fifth generation flight vehicle. It is recognized as a priority by the state arms program to 2015. Its fate is to be Russia’s basic air force tactical airplane.

In a discussion of the airplane of the future’s appearance, the emphasis is being made literally on each trifle (if there are such things in aviation in general), besides one – with which engine will the PAK FA fly. It has not been resolved through today which engine to place on it or to which enterprise to award this delicate operation.

Until the adoption of federal law number 94-F3 of 21 June 2005, which regulated the allocation of orders, OAO NPO Saturn was the lead developer of the aircraft engine. The enterprise did a lot for defining the appearance of the future engine – it performed the pre-draft stage of development and defined the primary “break-throughâ€

[gopal.suri]

The real issue is the new RuAF commander. read this

The trigger for the development is the replacement of Air Force Chief Commander Vladimir Mikhailov with Alexander Zelin. Mikhailov had lobbied for the engine design proposed by Salyut Moscow Heavy-Industry Production Enterprise. Salyut is a comptetior of NPO Saturn. Salyut is working on an engine with thurst of 15.3 tons and NPO Saturn’s engine has 14.5-ton thrust. NPO-Saturn is the official engine developement partner for the Russian 5th generation fighter.

[vina]

They all came to a singular conclusion: It is not possible to create such a complex and high tech product as a fifth generation aircraft engine with the required characteristics by the efforts of on Russian enterprise. Therefore, it is necessary to create a pool of Russian motor builders.

If anything illustrates the gap in engines between the west (esp Unkil) and Russia ,this does really well. The Russians are at least one generation behind in engines.

[gopal.suri]

They all came to a singular conclusion: It is not possible to create such a complex and high tech product as a fifth generation aircraft engine with the required characteristics by the efforts of on Russian enterprise. Therefore, it is necessary to create a pool of Russian motor builders.

If anything illustrates the gap in engines between the west (esp Unkil) and Russia ,this does really well. The Russians are at least one generation behind in engines.

Yes. Both Salyut and Saturn will collabrate on this engine.

[Neshant]

> joint production and sale of the fighter

Joint production is just end of the line fabrication (cutting parts..etc). I'm talking about R&D. Is there any notable contribution by India to the R&D of this plane. So far, it seems russians are doing everything.

The speed at which they are doing it is also unpresidented. It means they are not building something revolutionary. Rather they are using existing technologies & materials that they have.

As far as joint sales, they will 'jointly' sell it to India. But not to worry, we'll be getting TOT !!!!!!

[gopal.suri]

Russians are talking from their arse frankly. They do not have money for even R&D. Engine is not decided, Airframe is not finalised, avionics are not decided, weapons are not ready yet. how on earth hey are going to fly that plane?

I will tell you what they mean.

They will fly a 5th generation type plane with improvised existing technology before they go for final plane. The Saturn engine they are going to fly the first demonstartor is an Al-31 upgrade. The design will be frozen when HAL comes in, till then they can fly what they want.

My observation ofcourse.

[JaiS]

Key suppliers named for Sukhoi-led LFI fighter

DATE:10/06/03
SOURCE:Flight International

Ramenskoye RPKB and Aerospace Equipment will jointly development the integrated avionics suite. Avionics elements will be supplied by Polet, Ramenskoye RPKB, Tekhnocomplex, Tikhomirov NIIP, and the Urals Optics Mechanical plant. KNIIRTI is tasked with the electronic countermeasures systems.

[JCage]

They all came to a singular conclusion: It is not possible to create such a complex and high tech product as a fifth generation aircraft engine with the required characteristics by the efforts of on Russian enterprise. Therefore, it is necessary to create a pool of Russian motor builders.

If anything illustrates the gap in engines between the west (esp Unkil) and Russia ,this does really well. The Russians are at least one generation behind in engines.

Yeah, but thats always been the case moreorless...but the Russians make do. So the Russians have lower SFC engines...easy make the plane carry more fuel...have it become larger. The radar is older and doesnt have the latest chips or gain for long range..ok, redesign it for more power and compensate...the avionics are slower? Ok put in more federated systems..the planes designed for it..right..so on and so forth...

I hope the PAK-FA breaks this cycle and from the ground up meets or exceeds the Western benchmarks in every sense..even if we have to MKI'ise it to compensate.

[Neshant]

And so back to the original question - Is India making any R&D contribution to this plane or is just a case of cash & carry (also known as waste of money).

[Mihir.D]

And so back to the original question - Is India making any R&D contribution to this plane or is just a case of cash & carry (also known as waste of money).

Cash , Carry and Customize

[Sumeet]

And so back to the original question - Is India making any R&D contribution to this plane or is just a case of cash & carry (also known as waste of money).

R&D in what is the question. You have following different areas:

1.Engine Technology & IR Stealth.
2.Airframe Design: Aerodynamics.
3.Airframe Design: RF & IR Stealth.
4.Flight Control System.
5.Mission Software.
6.Multi Sensor Data Fusion & Display System.
7.Avionics Architecture & Data Bus technology
8.Weapon Fire Control Software.
9.Radar: Associated Hardware & Software.
10.IRST, EO Targeting Equipment, MAWS, RWR, LWR, ECM, DIRCM.
11.Cockpit Avionics: HMD/HMS, MMI design etc
12.High Speed Fault tolerant Computers/super Computers.
13.Communications, Navigation, Identification & Datalink.

For point 1, don't know if we can contribute anything substantially to engine development other than FADEC units. But we can definitely contribute to its IR signature management.

With airframe design frozen, we can't contribute to 2 & 3; unless they decide to change the design.

I don't know how far have they progressed with point 4. Depending on that we may be able to contribute and learn how to develop & test FBW for a TVC equipped aircraft.

From 5th to 13th we can do whole lot of bleeding edge R&D business.

At the same time we can launch just a technology R&D program for hi tech research into aerospace stealth designs like fighter, UCAVs, Cruise Missiles. Build prototypes with the intention of using knowledge acquired to be used in UCAV design, cruise missiles like nirbhay and in future doing to PAK-FA what boeing did with F/A-18 Hornet when it came up with Super Hornet.

[ragupta]

PAK-FA is a secret project, because Ru does not have money to fund it. With India joining necessary money will move it a step ahead from drawing board.

Eseentially money supposed to be allocated for MCA will go for PAK-FA.

Not necessarily a bad deal if it is a success like MKI with joint monitoring.

Till that time Ru can fly PAK-FA in simulation mode whenever they want in 2007,2009,2012 etc.

Indian money will again be used to upskill Ru scientists and engineers, while Indian scientist and engineers will be looking for fund and will continue to be literally r$ped by IA and IAF as they will never accept any completed projects as it will never meet ever changing ASR and whatever not, till the time Indian R&D is destroyed due to lack of any motivated by scientist and engineers.

[Neshant]

Its all looking real hazy to me. Theories of what we could be doing aside, what R&D are we doing on this plane for real? I've been combing through articles but cannot find a thing.

The Russians have asked India to put in money but nobody knows what we are getting out of it.

Hopefully someone knows the answer to this prior to handing over billions of dollars. Hopefully...

[Katare]

Neshant,

You should realize that we are having all kind of troubles making a 4th gen aircraft, engine, radar and weapons. Now here we are talking about a true fifth gen fighter. In year 2007 this may be the only way available for us to get involved in building a 5th gen plane while we continue to finish our 4th gen efforts. An independent Indian 5th gen program can't be launched and completed realistically in any meaningful time frame IMO.

The question is multi-faceted -

What are we contributing?
What can be contribute?
What do we have ready that we can contribute?
What is it that we can realistically contribute on time at that tech level?
what we must contribute to get return on our equity?
What are other realistic options other than Pak FA?
x
y
z....


We are hardly $1k/capita developing economy we should not get over ambitious in nationalistic fervor. These kind of technologies are built over several decades if not centuries. At the end it’ll be one better than the ToT nothing more but still the best available option for India IMO.

It should not come as any surprise to anyone that it'll be a Russian show since they have the required ready base for most of the 5th gen technologies and infrastructure but our scientists would definitely learn and contribute as much as they realistically can. Don't completely loose the spirit of cooperation and learning in pursuit of hard negotiations.

It seems like there will be two versions of the aircraft one especially built for IAF and I think that aircraft would have more Indian contents and design parameters. But our domestic efforts like LCA, Astra, Kaveri and MMR are more important than this $5Bill, 5th gen, 50% share (on paper) project.

Inshaallah, in 2025 with $5trillion economy and 20x industrial base we'll be on par with rest of the developed world to launch our sixth gen plane with Vietnam or Nigeria as our equal partner!!!

[JaiS]

Katare'ji, well said !

Russian Engine Makers Jockey for New Orders

21 August 2000

Aviation Week & Space Technology


ALEXEY KOMAROV


Vol. 153, No. 8

According to Viktor Chepkin, general designer of Lyulka-Saturn, the AL-41F has a number of advantages compared with the previous-generation AL-31F. It offers about 25% lower specific weight and 30% fewer parts. Compression rate is significantly higher than the AL-31F, while the number of compressor stages is lower. The turbine inlet temperature is 155-200C higher, and the engine features full automatic digital controls with hydraulic backup.

New AL-41 unveiled at MAKS 2001

DATE:28/08/01

SOURCE:Flight International

"The ( Russian ) air force is looking for effective upgrade solutions for its in-service aircraft. This engine provides it, and can breathe new life into the Su-27," says Victor Chepkin, Saturn scientific director.

The AL-41F was designed for supercruise, thrust vectoring and post-stall angles of attack. The family also includes high-thrust aircraft engines and industrial gas turbines.

Development began in 1986, and first examples of the engine were flown on testbed aircraft in the late 1980s. Flight tests resumed in February 2000 on the RSK MiG 1.44 technology demonstrator.

"We have done all the tests on this engine as a thrust-maker. Further work should be connected with an airframe, as the philosophy of the fifth-generation fighters calls for control of the engine and thrust-vectoring system as part of an integrated flight control system," says Chepkin.

The AL-41 meets an 11:1 thrust-to-weight ratio design target, compared with the 8.3:1 for the AL-31.Work is in progress to increase the figure to 12-12.5:1.

[JaiS]

India driving changes to Russian fighter platforms

By Vladimir Karnozov
June 13, 2005
Aircraft

[quote]

Russian fifth-generation fighter programs could undergo major revisions to meet India’s requirements, following Sukhoi’s offer of an export version of the latest T-50 model. With India as a major importer of Russian defense equipment (purchases last year accounted for $1.8 billion), Sukhoi and its rival/possible collaborator can ill-afford to be out of sync with the Asian power’s military agenda.

In the middle of last year ( Middle of 2004 ) the project passed critical design review with the Russian air force ( My note : This is an important milestone ) , which allowed Sukhoi to officially present its export version to India in early 2005.

This has created headaches for Sukhoi managers as they try to reconcile the vastly differing Russian and Indian requirements in one basic design.

Official information on the T-50 is limited, and so far no pictures have surfaced. The powerplant consists of two NPO Saturn AL-41F-1A turbofans, essentially AL-41Fs scaled down to the size of the existing Su-27’s AL-31F. Such commonality has allowed the engine maker to develop the new unit by replacing one AL-31F module after another, while at the same time applying new AL-41F-1A technologies and parts to upgrade in-service Su-27s. An experimental AL-41F-1A entered flight test a year ago ( 2004 ) on a Su-27M test bed.

Sukhoi general director Mikhail Pogosyan told Aviation International News the aircraft’s size “is between the MiG-29 and Su-27, closer to the Su-27.â€

[Lkawamoto]

this project can be another black hole of indian money.
less india works with the russians the better

they have already shown their true colors with price hikes, irresponsible delays in schedules, china deals, and other insulting behaviour

how they are treating belarus, georgia, ukrain, and murdering their own citizens who critisize putin is for the whole world to see,

russian government is also ignoring the russian hackers (if not supporting them) who are stealing people's IDs world wide, stealing credit card info, and otherwise misusing the internet on a large scale.

less india deals with the goons the better

india is better off playing with USA - once the stupid commies are
defeated in the polls

[JaiS]

The design will be frozen when HAL comes in, till then they can fly what they want.

Actually, the design is frozen and based on it, construction of the first prototype has already commenced at NAPO. Earlier in this thread it has been reported that an electronic mockup of the plane was approved by the Russian airforce and that Sukhoi has since been working on the documentation and work needed to realize the electronic mockup.

Construction of First Fifth Generation Fighter Begins

Source: 06.03.07, Izvestiya.RU

{ Translation Credits : Roy FC }

The Novosibirsk Chkalov Aviation Production Association (NAPO) has begun construction of the fifth generation multirole fighter. This work is being performed at Komsomol'sk-on-Amur together with the aircraft plant at Komsomol'sk-on-Amur, the enterprise's general director, Fedor Zhdanov, reported today during a visit to NAPO by Novosibirsk Oblast governor Viktor Tolokonskiy.

"Final assembly will take place at Komsomol'sk-on-Amur, and we will be carrying out assembly of the fore body of this airplane," Zhdanov specified. The fifth generation fighter which will replace the MiG-29 and Su-27 airplanes of the previous generation, was developed by the Sukhoy design bureau.

NAPO Chkalov is one of the country's largest airplane building enterprises and is included in the Sukhoy Holding Company, ITAR-TASS notes.

Original article ( In Russian ) :

http://www.izvestia.ru/news/news131516/

Other agencies which have reported this :

http://www.rosprom.gov.ru/news.php?id=3343&fcat=18

http://news2.ru/story/28949/

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2007/04/06/generation5/

[JaiS]

Igorr, could you please translate the contents of this image :



Credit for the image to : flateric