Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 2

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Murugan
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Post by Murugan »

Sorry Murugan. Hindu pride is in the gutter. It cannot be redeemed by simple talk. It can only be redeemed by learning the ways of the world and taking the fight onto areas that Hindus have never been exposed to before. Until then I will have harsh words for those who doggedly remain in the dark and do not want to listen to the tales of those who have been to the other side, have seen, and have returned with affection
Nobody can deny genuine ills in any religion including Hinduism.

But again you are talking the dark side about hinduism. You will not be able to recruit soldiers with this sentiment, your ideas may incidentally create reformers. But, as on date, we need soldiers with reformist ideology - a perfect surgeon. Or a team of surgeons.

If we want to tackle jihad in india (We= as a layman, or in RM's language, us commons can fight against jihad and can only influence GoI to tackle terrorism) we need to strengthen ourselves with positives of hinduism, terrorism will be tackled by Soniaben and his secular team for the time being.

Tell me whose pride is not in Gutter?

All the religions are now being questioned and so their religious leaders. Crows are black everywhere.
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Post by Murugan »

If we are ashamed about Hinduism's ill and still want to continue with it, as far as BR is concerned we can start a new thread named "Tackling Ills of Hinduism" etc., IMVHO, there is very little need to talk abuot ills of hindus and hinduism when we are out there with our lances to tackle Islamic 'Jihad' aka terrorism.

Give a War Cry Dr.

Like Aayo Gorkhali...

Better the pep-talks remain very positive in this 'War against jihad' thread.

IMVVHO.
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Post by Murugan »

The RSS and Hindu organizations are babes in the wood. Even today's news indicates that. In an election speech, Modi made a reference to the encounter killing of one Sohrabuddin.

And you know Sonia's reply? She called the Gujarat government "Merchants of death"
Bilkul viparit news!

It was sonia first and modi second.

Modi didnot took name of Sohrab, he asked the audience what should be done with such such criminal... and the dhimmi hindus attending the gathering said "Kill him, kill him"

Victim of dhimmedia again.
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Post by Murugan »

read the clarification of CM to EC

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/08gujpoll5.htm
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Post by GuruNandan »

Even though this is an aside, i want to share my sense of optimism with regard to revival of Hinduism in spite of the multi pronged attacks it faces from what i call the Dushta Chathustaya (Gang of Four) Communism/Christiaity/Islam/Secularism.

Hindu Dharma/Sanatana Dharma/Vedic Dharma is in accordance with the deeper, intrinsic nature of human beings. Where as ideologies like communism, islam and others spring from the lower nature of the human psyche. They are materialistic ideologies in the garb of religion. That being the case, Hinduism can find its way into the human hearts because it is based on Satya (truth). Anything that is based on the truth stands on its own without the need for backing by big money, big army, big think tanks, big political and media machinery. Falsehood requires all these. Because it cannot stand on its own, it requires the all these supports. I therefore feel very confident that in spite of all our setbacks, we will prevail. And we don't need the majority for that. A few thinking, daring individuals can do it. Historically, it has been the case. We have never depended on masses. Behind a Shivaji, it was the vision of Samartha Ramdas. Behind a Vijayanagar empire was the vision of Shri Vidyaranya Swami.

My confidence is not misplaced. I see things around me which makes me draw the conclusion. I have seen that with regard to myself, the older i grow, the more proud Hindu i become (as VS Naipaul says). Of course the seeds were sown by the family and also to a large extent in RSS shakas that i attended. I have seen people who in my earlier days were sworn critics of Hindu Dharma change all of a sudden and become very devout. In my city where i live, i have a muslim who is converted to Hindu (secretly of course).

But of course, we still need to meet the challenges and for now, i think the greatest threat we face within is from neutralized Hindus/Dhimmis. But i am amused to see that the enemy is panicking. Just watch the Barkhas, the Sagarikas, the Rajdeeps crying hoarse about the sense of helplessness they feel about that one man Modi.
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RSS should be ready of constructive criticism

Post by mangesh »

Murugan,

Shiv is just trying to point out that RSS should learn to come out of its conventional shell and use more intelligence than emotions. For whatever they righteously do or not do, they get branded as extrimist right wing hate mongers and anyone defending hinduism will be called as RSS goon.

Such large organisations like RSS which tends to represent the woes of patriotic Indians and indian ethos should be more intelligent and cunning than their opponents. Instead it helped itself to be branded as an extrimist organisation, though the truth is far from the propaganda of Abrahamic faiths.

I feel RSS should be ready for constructive criticism, if it need to survive in current crooked political scenario of India. But many I a time, i felt that it is quite difficult to remove the "extrimist" stigma with which RSS got successfuly branded.

When communists errected their pillars of media war through NDTV, hindu etc and many literary and social orgnasition working underground for their evil strategies, RSS was going in the traditional hindu way of fight it direct. Missionaries, Communists, Muslims - all of them did their part in delegating their dirty works to terrorists or camouflaged wolves in
sheep's sheath and tactically avoiding direct acceptance of evils they do and still gets the work done, without being hit. But RSS seem like frivolous enough to counter this crooked mechanism employed by its predators. Thus as we see now, for an average dhimmi indian, RSS may be an extrimist organisation, even people who are sympathetic to RSS and realise the great work they do find it better to avoid direct allegiance with them, for avoiding being branded as extrimists. It is not that congress or commies or missionaries or jihaids dont do murder, they do, but cleverly and only after decided on how to get away with it.

Even there are enough opponents to predate it, it is dis-heartening to see the lack of unity and intelligent strategies in RSS. They should be ready to get refined with the time, leaving away its baggages that is inhibitting its progress towards its real vission.

In short I have always felt that RSS lacked image due to its foolish startegies. For this reason, common hindus out in public who is not brough in an RSS family find it difficult to align with it. Thus it lost the push it should have got.

Secondly due to above reason, few intelligent hindus endowed with acumen are willing to dedicate himself for RSS.

RSS failed miserably in the sociological warfare, due to their direct approach even when hindus are still majority in India.

My feeling is that RSS/BJP should learn to act with intelligence than emotions. Cunningness should be dealt with 100 times cunningness. Unity should be acheived by focussing all energy on opponents so there is no time left for internal dis-harmony. A level of democracy should be permitted atleast in accepting intelligent views even from lower cadres.
Finally morality and ethics which is an ancient hindu baggage should be thrown into some dust-bin, atleast while dealing commies/jihadis and missionaries. Leader should be ready sacrifice petty egos for the survival of hindus, instead more than often an RSS leader is THE-egoistic ever possible.

Unless it revives RSS wont get the critical mass to drive the hindu community in its fight against jihadist madmen.

I like RSS the for good work they do and the vission they have, but I find their most sociological strategies least appealing.

Admins : This is my first post, I dont know if this is derailing the thread. Please advice in case it is.
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Re:Kattarpanti Bandh Karo!

Post by skher »


All the religions are now being questioned and so their religious leaders. Crows are black everywhere.
That is absolutely true.What I find complicates things further for Indian Muslims is the power wielded by the ulemas and the ayatollahs.
They are NOT being questioned effectively....many ulemas are members/supporters of terrorist organizations as well.

For good reason, the clergy of other religions [Brahmins, monks,priests and Akalis] have been relieved of their legal and political powers.
They are best left for academic and professional pursuits.

The way out is to implement a unified Muslim Personal Law act which abolishes Sharias and integrates them into the civil court system.
More importantly,women should be allowed to offer prayers inside Mosque complexes.

All Indian Muslims need is legal integration- everything else has been already achieved.

P.S.: All those protesting against the bill being made into an act should be dealt with accordingly as extremists under POTA
Those are the real extremists:-causing the country to burn.
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Re: RSS should be ready of constructive criticism

Post by Sadler »

mangesh wrote:Murugan,

Such large organisations like RSS which tends to represent the woes of patriotic Indians and indian ethos should be more intelligent and cunning than their opponents. Instead it helped itself to be branded as an extrimist organisation, though the truth is far from the propaganda of Abrahamic faiths.
(1) Jews have not branded the RSS extremist.
(2) there is only ONE Abrahamic faith, which is the Judaic faith or the faith of the hebrews
(3) Notwithstanding the megalomanical rantings of their founders, neither christianism nor islamism are "Abrahamic" religions. Abraham had nothing to do with these religions.

I really wish you, old-timers and new-bies, stopped plying this old canard.
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Re:Kattarpanti Bandh Karo!

Post by ShauryaT »

SonarDeshi wrote:P.S.: All those protesting against the bill being made into an act should be dealt with accordingly as extremists under POTA
POTA has been repealed, by the current UPA government.
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Re: RSS should be ready of constructive criticism

Post by ShauryaT »

Sadler wrote:(1) Jews have not branded the RSS extremist.
(2) there is only ONE Abrahamic faith, which is the Judaic faith or the faith of the hebrews
(3) Notwithstanding the megalomanical rantings of their founders, neither christianism nor islamism are "Abrahamic" religions. Abraham had nothing to do with these religions.

I really wish you, old-timers and new-bies, stopped plying this old canard.
Sadler, it is important that you continue to raise these distinctions of the real Jewish faith/traditions as the tendency of Christians and Muslims to claim heritage from Abraham/Moses et al is quite popular.

Most Indians do not know much about Jews, hence this bracketing into this common club. Your patience and persistence is much appreciated.
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Re:Kattarpanti Bandh Karo!

Post by Prem »

ShauryaT wrote:
SonarDeshi wrote:P.S.: All those protesting against the bill being made into an act should be dealt with accordingly as extremists under POTA
POTA has been repealed, by the current UPA government.
This why Dharmic forces must get political power by all means necessary.
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Re:Kattarpanti Bandh Karo!

Post by ShauryaT »

Prem wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:POTA has been repealed, by the current UPA government.
This why Dharmic forces must get political power by all means necessary.
What means that might be? There is only one way, that I know of. :)
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Re: RSS should be ready of constructive criticism

Post by mangesh »

Sadler wrote:
mangesh wrote:Murugan,

Such large organisations like RSS which tends to represent the woes of patriotic Indians and indian ethos should be more intelligent and cunning than their opponents. Instead it helped itself to be branded as an extrimist organisation, though the truth is far from the propaganda of Abrahamic faiths.
(1) Jews have not branded the RSS extremist.
(2) there is only ONE Abrahamic faith, which is the Judaic faith or the faith of the hebrews
(3) Notwithstanding the megalomanical rantings of their founders, neither christianism nor islamism are "Abrahamic" religions. Abraham had nothing to do with these religions.

I really wish you, old-timers and new-bies, stopped plying this old canard.
Sadler,

Sorry for the misunderstanding

I never meant to include jews in this context. But just to avoid always using the term missionaries specially when it is not always accepted, that too in an islamic extrimism thread, I had used the term "Abrahamic faiths" without much fore-thoughts about jews, as jews have never been
antagonistic to hindus and never ever tried to alter indian demography.
My main objective was to pointout the pitfalls of RSS machinery in fighting its opponents especially the cunning one and the islamists, not blaming jihadists or missionaries. The situation is a sociological war, and they will do anything to butcher the clueless opponent hindus.

I am sorry to have made you hurt by using the term "Abrahamic" when jews are the ones mainly represented by him. My Apologies.
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Post by ramana »

Murugan et al, I suggest you guys hold off trying to find the solution till the patient is diagonized correctly.

Thanks for the patience.
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Re:Kattarpanti Bandh Karo!

Post by Prem »

ShauryaT wrote:
Prem wrote: This why Dharmic forces must get political power by all means necessary.
What means that might be? There is only one way, that I know of. :)

I mean great MG way onlee .
When outsiders are trying to take away all we hold sacred in our Home then we must exploit every little democratic option available to us. We cannot afford to loose the current battle and hope to survive and live with ED i.e Eternal Dhimmitude.
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Re: RSS should be ready of constructive criticism

Post by Sadler »

ShauryaT wrote: Most Indians do not know much about Jews, hence this bracketing into this common club. Your patience and persistence is much appreciated.
Thank you. So is the support of my indian friends such as yourself.
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Re: RSS should be ready of constructive criticism

Post by Sadler »

mangesh wrote: I am sorry to have made you hurt by using the term "Abrahamic" when jews are the ones mainly represented by him. My Apologies.
No apologies necessary. But i'd certainly appreciate it if you could spread the word. The more folks (including many jews) learn that this is a "forced" association, the better off we will be in the long run.

Thanks. and Namaste.
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Re: RSS should be ready of constructive criticism

Post by mangesh »

Sadler wrote:
mangesh wrote: I am sorry to have made you hurt by using the term "Abrahamic" when jews are the ones mainly represented by him. My Apologies.
No apologies necessary. But i'd certainly appreciate it if you could spread the word. The more folks (including many jews) learn that this is a "forced" association, the better off we will be in the long run.

Thanks. and Namaste.
Sadler,

Thanks, I will do my best to spread this truth.
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Post by GuruNandan »

Sadler wrote

(2) there is only ONE Abrahamic faith, which is the Judaic faith or the faith of the hebrews
(3) Notwithstanding the megalomanical rantings of their founders, neither christianism nor islamism are "Abrahamic" religions. Abraham had nothing to do with these religions.

Sadler,

I agree with you 100%. Judaism is only one Abrahamic faith. Christianity and Islam are what are called as Biblical creeds. In "Hindu View of the world" Shri NS Rajaram discusses this in detail in the context of discussing the "Dead Sea Scrolls" (Chap 9). He in fact presents some forceful arguments that Jesus was a fictitious and concocted character. This is for another topic.
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Post by vsudhir »

DELETED
OT
Last edited by vsudhir on 09 Dec 2007 06:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sadler »

Deleted.
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Post by vsudhir »

Sadler wrote:vsudhir: could i impose on you for a link? Thank you.
Aah, Sadler, the honorary Indian on the board.... :D
My bad, didn't think folks would wanna pursue the story further. Here goes.

Link
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Post by shiv »

vsudhir and others. Please try and keep information about Islamism per se on the Islamism thread, although I do understand that there will be some unavoidable overlap.

While Islamism is the same in the West or in India, society's reaction to that are very different in India. Look at the words "society's reaction" as body resistance or the body's ability to develop resistance.

One of the fundamental problems posed by Islamism is the way it has historically handled criticism and in fact I could repeat one of the game scenarios from an earlier thread to explain, but I won't.

Just watch the Wafa Sultan video posted by GuruNandan earlier if you have not already done so:

http://jchannel.blogspot.com/2007/12/wa ... oblem.html

She makes an interesting point and it gave me an "aha" moment. It is part of the characteristic fudging done over the centuries by Islamists that hide with layers and layers and layers of defences the dirty truth at the core of Islam.

The trump card of Islam is death. Any criticism of Islam calls for a death sentence. We have discussed this time an time again. "You toucha my faith and I smasha your face". In the days when Islam operated unchecked in India all opponents were mercilessly murdered. The only survival mechanism with Islam nearby was to dismiss all thought of criticism of islam in general, leave alone the core at which lies the life of Mohammad.

Wafa Sultan's video above makes an interesting pint that gave me an "aha" moment. She does not say read the Quran. She says read the biography of Mohammad, whose actions are supposed to be followed to the letter by all Muslims.

No Mullah tells you Mohammad's biography. Mohammad and his life are protected by a code that is not broken even on this forum by people who claim the most hawk-like sentiment. The only reference you will find to Mohammad is "The Prophet Mohammad, peace be upon him"

Islam is all about living like him, but there are no references to his "biography". His biography is concealed in the Koran and Hadiths. These were until recently cloaked in a veil of Arabic. Even today people say "Read the Quran". Reading the Quran is meaningless without a deep study and understanding of the Hadiths. If you can achieve that, you might then start getting to see a biography of Mohammad that Wafa Sultan says one needs to look at.

The net consequence of not understanding the biography of Mohammad is that cognitive dissonance kicks in when you actually hear about it. Nobody wants to believe it, and of course historically anyone who questioned it was just killed.

Let me do an equal equal.

Texts like the Gita are open for anyone to look at as is the Mahabharata. No one is telling you to read it in Arabic. There are gory and sexy stories in the Mahabharata. Stories of lust and killing. Stories of gambling and greed. Fine. There is no dispute about that.

Why then attempt to blind oneself with lies about Mohammad's life?

How many more centuries are we going to be afraid to speak up the truth in favor of "What will our dear friends think?" political correctness?

Bhima after all proceeded to wash himself in Duryodhana's blood after breaking open Duryodhana's thigh - the lap that Duryodhana had forced Draupadi to sit on. But Hindus are not breaking open thighs in revenge. We agree to forego that kind of revenge in favor of constitutional law if others do too. But if others don't maybe we should take a literalist leaf out of our Holy texts.

If violence, lust and killing are part of Mohammad's life, let us hear about it, since we are told constantly that everyone should live his life like Mohammad.
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Re: RSS should be ready of constructive criticism

Post by shiv »

mangesh wrote:Murugan,

Shiv is just trying to point out that RSS should learn to come out of its conventional shell and use more intelligence than emotions. For whatever they righteously do or not do, they get branded as extrimist right wing hate mongers and anyone defending hinduism will be called as RSS goon.
....
Admins : This is my first post, I dont know if this is derailing the thread. Please advice in case it is.
Dead right mangesh.

Let me be struck down by Bhima's mace if I prevent the truth from being stated.

The RSS's day to day activities are far from being violent or fundamentalist. But the RSS remain committed to very low key aims and only react with the confused anger of a village farmer who finds himself falsely accused of being a murderer just because someone murdered someone else sometime.

Organizations like the RSS need to appoint people to undergo courses in rhetoric and propaganda as well as in public relations and media management. If people can be groomed in these then it may be possible to reverse the trend of calling anything Hindu as "extremism".

Even on this forum, the RSS has been compared by some to the Lashkar e Tayeba. No need to get angry, but there is a need to set things right.

However it is not for me to say what the RSS should or should not do. If they can't get their act together, someone else will.
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Post by vsudhir »

If violence, lust and killing are part of Mohammad's life, let us hear about it, since we are told constantly that everyone should live his life like Mohammad.
Shiv,

Many Muzlims can perhaps live with the fact that PBUH committed brutal acts in his life which are unbecoming of any spirituality whatsoever.

What might be profoundly undigestible to the ummah though is that the man first claimed he was the messiah of the Jews, you see. He borrowed heavily from Judaism and initially commanded his band to pray towards Jerusalem and all. When the Jews, understandably, rejected his claims to a Judaic prophethood, he went ballistic launching a visceral war against Judaism that continues to this day.

It is this fear that a study of Mohd's biography will bring out obvious concotions that served only one man's interest is what scares the ulema most. Like the SS oath "We'll follow the path even if it is wrong", nobody gets to be a mullah or quranic authority or ayatollah w/o taking a similar oath w.r.t. izlam.....

JMTs etc. Std disclaimers hold.
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Post by shiv »

vsudhir wrote:
It is this fear that a study of Mohd's biography will bring out obvious concotions that served only one man's interest is what scares the ulema most. Like the SS oath "We'll follow the path even if it is wrong", nobody gets to be a mullah or quranic authority or ayatollah w/o taking a similar oath w.r.t. izlam.....
Look vsudhir. I am a simple man - I can't understand complicated things.

I know that the Mahabharata and Ramayana are very violent but the stories are up there for everyone to see and judge. I want to hear the exact story of Mohammad's life. How did he react to everyday events? Whom did he marry? At what times did God speak to him?
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Post by Murugan »

Murugan,

Shiv is just trying to point out that RSS should learn to come out of its conventional shell and use more intelligence than emotions. For whatever they righteously do or not do, they get branded as extrimist right wing hate mongers and anyone defending hinduism will be called as RSS goon
why dont be a 'bad' hindu for atleast few decades!! JMT


***

Still want to remain that subservient type?

You know how the world is changing as far as India is concerned...!
They are lining up outside commerce and defence minitries to get their product sold and projects approved.

EU dared to interefere and got Eurocopter deal scrapped! Naryanan gave a tight slap on their face.

Nobody in the world would afford to call us bad if we show that carrot (o/w they will get a middle finger)

At one hand we are talking about being powerful and then we want to be powerful w/o disappointing the world. Two horses at a time.


What we are showing here is that we need to be accepted in the world - are not we showing the gandhian/nehruvian attitude instead of being chanakyan over here?
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Post by Murugan »

Murugan et al, I suggest you guys hold off trying to find the solution till the patient is diagonized correctly.

Thanks for the patience
Yes ramanaji.
Noted, thanx.

I was trying to suggest that the patient should be diagnozed using Indian holistic system like Ayurveda instead of other systems!

RSS/BJP/others are immaterial, the cancerous part is to be removed (or healed, if possible).
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

One important thing about Mohammed life that could point what is it in Izlam that is so compelling that many people support Islamists. This could be tied to sexuality. Specifically, it is all about capturing resources with specific emphasis on reproductive resource. Majority of Islamic campagians are about rewards one is showered with after the fact. The most common is access to women. Although jihadis may be promised with 72 raisins, it is very few who actually get killed. The accompanying jihadis are free to lust after the bounty after the jihad act. So, most jihadis, not withstanding standing up for ideology, are about capture of reproductive resources.
It is where might is right is very ably demonstrated. Once a region falls under the ambit of islamism, it becomes essential that the reproductive resources are to be guarded very closely. Hence heavy emphasis on covering of "the resource" with unappealing burqa as attire. In islam it is all about capture, control and manipulation of reproductive resource. The opportunity for the reproductive resource is enhanced under chaos, hence creation of chaos in non-islamic lands is first choice. In dar-ul-islam, it is all about strict monitoring and manipulation of reproductive resources.
Anything that impedes or challenges the right of desperado behavior will be target of jihadis. So all doves and hawks who challenge this "Mard right" is unfit to be a Mard and hence weeded out. The less said about the meat left outside the fridge, the better.
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Post by GuruNandan »

Shiv Said
I want to hear the exact story of Mohammad's life. How did he react to everyday events? Whom did he marry? At what times did God speak to him?

Shiv Sir,

Here is a list of reading material on Mohammad. The good news is that most of it is available online. Please pass it onto folks who are interested. It makes for some disturbing reading.

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/arti ... /wahi.html
The article titled Wahi: the Supernatural Basis of Islam

Hindu View of Christianity and Islam. - A masterful and scholarly presentation of Islam and Christianity by Shri Ram Swarup. He has referred to the life of Mohammed mainly from 2 sources.
1. Mohammed and the Rise of Islam - by D S Margoliouth published in 1905
2. The Life of Mahomet - by Sir William Muir - first published in 1858.

http://bharatvani.org//books/uith/
Understanding Islam through Hadis - A masterful work by Shri Ram Swarup. This was originally published in the US in 1982 and was banned by the government of India for obvious reasons. Chapters 13 and 14 have descriptions of Mohammed's personality.

http://bharatvani.org//books/jihad/
Jihad - The islamic doctrine of Permanent war - by Shri Suhas Majumdar first published in 1994 by Voice of India.

http://bharatvani.org//books/tcqp
The Calcutta Quran Petetion - by Shri Sita Ram Goel. Voice of India had to struggle to publish this book because of litigations.

http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/module ... le&sid=795
ISLAM: The Arab Imperialism - by the late Anwar Sheikh who died a Hindu
after apostasy from islam.

The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion - by Robert Spencer I haven't personally read this book, but am told that they refer to some of the sources above.

That should give any body enough material to thoroughly understand Islam, its ideology, its Prophet and History. Equipped with the knowledge one can take on any jokers/imbeciles/islam apologists who plead on behalf of Islam or insist that it is a religion of peace.

Peace and i mean that!
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Post by Johann »

cross-posting from the Islamism thread
vsudhir wrote:Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversion to Christianity sparked death threats (tIMES, uk)
The daughter of a British imam is living under police protection after receiving death threats from her father for converting to Christianity.

The 31-year-old, whose father is the leader of a mosque in Lancashire, has moved house an astonishing 45 times after relatives pledged to hunt her down and kill her.

The British-born university graduate, who uses the pseudonym Hannah for her own safety, said she renounced the Muslim faith to escape being forced into an arranged marriage when she was 16.

She has been in hiding for more than a decade but called in police only a few months ago after receiving a text message from her brother.

In it, he said he would not be held responsible for his actions if she failed to return to Islam.

Officers have agreed to offer her protection in case of an attempt on her life.

Last night the woman said: "I'm determined to live my life the way I want to because I should have that freedom in this country.

"If you make the choice to come to this country, as my parents did from Pakistan, you have to abide by the laws of this country and that means respecting the freedoms of other people.
Inevitably, a Papistan connection emerges at every intersection of bad news, fundamentalist islam and the formerly great, Britain.....

So hey, is it that its not just the yindoo majority in idnia that's dhimmish. Seems the brits and the EUroweenies are too. Look how much their establishment bends over forwards to whitewash the sins of islam, eh?
VS,

There are two different fear components, and one hope component in the way that non-Muslim majorities in democratic societies react to these issues.

- The fear that words or actions, however legal or ethical may lead to violence

- The fear that they are a bullying and intolerant majority, and will be condemned for it everywhere.

+ The hope that making concessions to Muslim minority will make it easier to do business with and win diplomatic suport from an energy-rich, big-spending ummah.

Absurd levels of pandering began in the UK a decade plus *before* 2001, before any fear of radicalisation. It was driven by the fear of being labelled racist, and the need to do business with the Arabs.

Why does this make a difference?

Because it is important to understand that the fear of violence is so much stronger in India, where more often than not the media refuses to report problematic Islamist issues, or when it does tends to use coy euphemisms such as 'a certain community'.

On the other hand the media coverage and public debate over of not just jihadist radicalisation, but the deeper issue of incompatible values has hugely *expanded* in the UK, France, Germany, Holland, Scandinavia, etc, as the threat of violence has increased. The reaction to violence has not silence, but scrutiny and clamour.

Although (as is healthy) there are strong legal challenges where anti-terror legislation violates long-established legal principles, for the most part the new anti-terror legislation in European countries have been supported by the major opposition parties, along with restrictions on Muslim immigration. While Muslims have been offered concessions in other areas, the laws themselves have held, and people are being tried, convicted, imprisoned and deported.

The fear of violence in India is deeper not only because of the size of the Muslim population, but because of the far more traumatic memories that go back such a long way.

The other issue is the *general* weakness of the law in India. This is a matter outside issues of Islamism but it makes things so much easier for the Islamist.

The power of violent blackmail to silence debate, and the weakness of the law are what makes dhimmitude in Europe and India qualitatively different.
Last edited by Johann on 09 Dec 2007 20:35, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
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Post by shiv »

GuruNandan wrote: That should give any body enough material to thoroughly understand Islam, its ideology, its Prophet and History. Equipped with the knowledge one can take on any jokers/imbeciles/islam apologists who plead on behalf of Islam or insist that it is a religion of peace.

Peace and i mean that!
My only request.

Behave like a Tiger, but understand how a Tiger behaves first.

The Tigress gently carries her own cubs, her own blood using the same jaws and teeth that can rip open the skull of an adversary.

When you confront a Hindu dhimmi with the story of Mohammad's life, tell him with gentleness and patience. Do not get angry with him and attack his ignorance with the same vigor (or more vigor) than you confront Islamists. Tigers have the sense to do that and do not show brainless savagery that does not differentiate between a possible future ally and an eternal foe.

Sometimes the dhimmitude of former dhimmis shows out in the vigor with which they attack dhimmis, a vigor that they are unable to display with the real Islamists.

Islamists win by having a layer of dhimmis to fight non dhimmis (former dhimmis). Non dhimmis must not waste too much fight on dhimmis. The advantage then goes only to Islamists. I get irritated by the stupidity shown by Hindus in this regard. Know who can be your ally and who will not be your ally before you bare your fangs.
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Post by shiv »

Long ago I spoke of "capturing" key words and key phrases that then become associated with something or the other.

For example:

Pakistan's arch enemy = ??
Pakistan's nuclear rival = ??

"??" is now permanently associated with Pakistan and cannot be associated with China or whatever.

Similarly we have

Islam = Religion of Peace
and
Hindu political organizations = extremists

It is important for those of us who want to think with an open mind to realise that these key expressions have become "common knowledge" in the world and the media and others have accepted these as true because the phrases have been "captured"

Because of widespread acceptance of these captured phrases we find further extrapolation of these "truths"

"Because Islam is a religion of peace, Muslim anger is genuine and an anguished expression of real grievances. Muslims have no other choice, so desperate are they"

On the other hand

"Because Hindu political organizations are extremists, their actions are bigoted and their anger is an indicator of their true Nazi agenda"

Every time a Hindu says "We will fight" or "we are strong", Hindus end up looking like dumb bigoted aggressors. This is a handicap that needs to be addressed with finesse, not with thigh slapping pehelwan rhetoric.

When a Hindu says "I am not a bigoted extremist" the reply is "Tell us another one. Every criminal says he is innocent"

I have tried to explore means of attacking without appearing aggressive and will continue to do that. It is a game that Islam has played for centuries, and a game that Hindus have never played. Truly Hindus are novices.
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Post by mangesh »

Murugan wrote:
Murugan,

Shiv is just trying to point out that RSS should learn to come out of its conventional shell and use more intelligence than emotions. For whatever they righteously do or not do, they get branded as extrimist right wing hate mongers and anyone defending hinduism will be called as RSS goon
why dont be a 'bad' hindu for atleast few decades!! JMT


***

Still want to remain that subservient type?

You know how the world is changing as far as India is concerned...!
They are lining up outside commerce and defence minitries to get their product sold and projects approved.

EU dared to interefere and got Eurocopter deal scrapped! Naryanan gave a tight slap on their face.

Nobody in the world would afford to call us bad if we show that carrot (o/w they will get a middle finger)

At one hand we are talking about being powerful and then we want to be powerful w/o disappointing the world. Two horses at a time.


What we are showing here is that we need to be accepted in the world - are not we showing the gandhian/nehruvian attitude instead of being chanakyan over here?
Murugan,

I personally am ready to be a bad-hindu for any amount of time, if it would be fruitful for the vission I have for my country. But past and intelligent analysis say it wont work out. Thats not the way sociology works.

Direct truth is always vehemently opposed. Indirect poison is imbibed as nectar. If this was not the case there was no need of any MBAs and IAS in this world.

Do u think rhetoric and direct action would get you critical-mass of hindus with RSS. They are centureis programmed dhimmis cut far off from their roots. You and I seeing the truth and ready of sacrifice do not suffice. Patience and strategy is required to wake them up to your level, just frustraction and optimistic-thinking that one day they would, is not so wise.
By the time they realise the magnitude of the blunder, hindus would be minorities and Isamists and missionaries need not play the same game in the same way there after.


I was not talking of India verses world. I am speaking of India verses India.!!! India verses world could have some sense if India is an ISRAEL,
where the entire country is a homogenious instrument resonating the right note to produce the right outcome in whatever perilous situation.
But we have work at home, we pose less danger from outside than inside, though the root thread is from outside.

Nobody wants to convince the world and then be powerful...
No, but we need to convince our people and get the critical mass running.

So, I am not asking for any gandhian/nehruvian attitude, instead to find a way to harness a critical-mass of support requiring the least.
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Post by shiv »

mangesh wrote:Thats not the way sociology works.

Direct truth is always vehemently opposed. Indirect poison is imbibed as nectar.

I was not talking of India verses world. I am speaking of India verses India.!!!

Nobody wants to convince the world and then be powerful...

No, but we need to convince our people and get the critical mass running.
Brilliant! Music to my ears. Here is someone who understands!!!

Long ago I had generated the image below to illustrate point in a discussion on BRF.

The same diagram can be used to ilustrate the meaning, but we need to make a few changes in labeling. Just rename "anti-Islam" (Groups A and B) as "Former dhimmis" and rename "Kafir Fence sitters" (Group C) as "dhimmis, psecs and Macaulayites" (Holy Hindu Trinity)

Image

The group C needs to be won over.

It is for them that Mangesh writes:
Direct truth is always vehemently opposed. Indirect poison is imbibed as nectar.
A brief glance at the picture show how much groups A and B have to fight. They have to oppose group C, D and E

But just see how the balance can be tilted by winning over group C rather than keeping them as a separate group linked to D and E.
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Post by shiv »

Johann wrote:
The fear of violence in India is deeper not only because of the size of the Muslim population, but the far more traumatic memories that go back such a long way.

The other issue is the *general* weakness of the law in India outside issues of Islamism, but which makes things so much easier for the Islamist.

The power of violent blackmail to silence debate, and the weakness of the law are what makes dhimmitude in Europe and India qualitatively different.
Valuable observations Johann.

The general weakness of the law in India certainly allows Islamism loopholes. At the same time, it also allows certain tit for tat actions - either official or unofficial.

If i was to go contrary to popular forum opinion and say that the same general weakness of the law allows extra-judicial action such as the encounter killing of a Sohrabuddin, or an officially sponsored riot leading to the death of Muslims, it still raises questions about the level of public debate in India on these issues.

The public debate space is filled with accusations of bias against the Indian state agencies (security forces) and non-state Hindu agencies as being sponsors of Muslim murder.

On the other hand there is a deafening silence from the media and the government ("the state") on the uncomfortable fact that to a very large extent terrorism in India is about Muslims and Islam. If you remove Islamist terrorism from India, terrorism deaths in India would go down by more than 75%.

Islamists use this silence to claim that violence is the only way and that terrorism is therefore justified. I am astounded that neither the Indian state, nor the media, nor Hindu organizations have picked up and ripped holes in this specious Islamist argument.

I have concentrated on Hindu attitudes for much of this thread. But if I ignore that and look only at "the state" (the government) in India which is supposed to implement the laws firmly and equally I see that the state too is accused of being anti-islamic both by virtue of weak laws and by virtue of active sponsorship of anti-Muslim policies.

It is worth examining which of these accusations is correct.

Is the state merely guilty of weak implementation of laws?

Or is the state guilty of implementation of unofficial anti-Muslim bias?

In fact it appears to me that overall the state has been extremely weak-kneed. While there may have been excesses and security force lapses the state has gone to great lengths to appear unbiased and fair to Muslims.

But the weakness of the state can still allow vigilante tit for tat action by Hindu groups and the great failure of the Indian state and Indian media is in being able to recognize and vehemently criticize extrajudicial action by Hindu groups while being completely quiet about the fact that most terrorism in India amounts to extrajudicial justice being meted out by Islamist groups for Muslim causes.

This is what I have been pointing out on this thread. If Hindu groups recognize that in India it is possible to conduct extrajudicial action against Muslims and that it is possible to justify that action in the manner that Islamist groups justify terrorism, then India's communal nightmares will really come to life with vigilante justice against Muslims wherever it is thought necessary.

As far as I can tell that process has started. In fact Modis recent statements about Sohrabuddin is a clear indicator that extra judicial vigilante justice by Hindus is a real possibility unless the state gets its act together.

I admit that it will not be possible to become a "strong state" overnight, but it will become necessary to admit the uncomfortable truth that terrorism nowadays is mostly about Islam. After all that has been recognised in Europe and in the US and policies clearly implemented to mitigate the effects of islamism.

Does India want Hindus to massacre Muslims in revenge for terrorism before it can call a spade a spade?
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Post by Gerard »

Doom for Muslim identity politics

by Irfan Ali Engineer

The Daily Pioneer
http://www.dailypioneer.com
2007/12/09
posted in full since site does not archive

On December 6, 2007 we looked back on the 15 years that have passed since the incident of the demolition of the Babri Masjid with a lot of mixed feelings. It was undoubtedly an attack on secularism and democracy. But, who can deny that a lot has changed since that infamous day for Muslim politics.

An unfortunate repercussion of the demolition and the communal riots that followed it is the increase in the influence of the ISI. Underworld don Dawood Ibrahim and gold smuggler Tiger Memon conspired with the ISI to carry out serial bombings in Mumbai on March 12, 1993. The Muslim youth, who were victims of communal riots that followed the demolition of the Babri Masjid, were successfully goaded into undertaking training in Pakistan to carry out the bombings in which over 287 people died. Anti-social elements among the Muslim community in south India were also attracted to religious fundamentalism after 1992 and a plethora of communal organisations like the Al-Umma sprang up there for the first time.

The RSS headquarters in Tamil Nadu was bomb to extract revenge for the demolition of the Babri Masjid. In 1998 there was communal violence in Coimbatore, something unprecedented in Tamil Nadu, in which 27 Muslims were killed when the police fired on an unarmed crowd that had collected to protest an attack by the Hindu Munani. The unilateral attack on Muslims was followed by bomb blasts in the same year in Coimbatore.

In Kerala, Maulana Madani started a militant organisation, the Islamic Service Society (ISS), to counter the RSS. The ISS attracted hundreds of youth in its fold. Madani was ultimately jailed and spent several years in prison for his role in the Coimbatore blasts, but was acquitted recently.

The list of ISI-backed terror incidents is long indeed. It cannot be denied that most of these bombing were motivated by the spirit Muslim victimhood for a series of wrongs committed on the community beginning from the demolition in 1992 to the Gujarat violence of 2002. The ISI capitalised on this victimhood and provided training, weapons and money to hoist up terrorist cells.

The most striking aspect about Muslim politics since 1992, however, is a positive one. The old, confrontationist strategy of the Babri Masjid Coordination Committee and the Babri Masjid Action Committee is now perceived as unworkable. The Muslim leadership that thrived on emotional and identity-related issues collapsed with the Babri Masjid. Today, the community is very cautious in responding emotive issues. There is a feeling within the community that education is the only salvation. Many organisations focussing on secular education have sprung up and their popularity is growing. This is a positive fallout of the Babri demolition.

Now, we are seeing Muslim girls topping the Secondary School Certificate examinations in Maharashtra. Recently, in Mumbai, two girl students defied the edict of few conservative elements to attend college and sought police protection for the purpose. So, the post-1992 period has seen increased awareness and an urge for secular education within the community.

Some Islamist organisations have begun to have a second thought on their ideology and are now working for communal harmony, secularism and justice for all. Jamaat-e-Islami is one such organisation to have reviewed its stand on the issue of an Islamic state. It has formed organisations to promote communal harmony. The organisations related with the Jamaat are working for peace and justice for all sections of society.

The backward classes among Muslims are now organising for extension of benefits of affirmative actions to the backward classes to them. In doing so, they emphasise their regional identity and seek to know what caste their pre-Islamic forefathers belonged to before converting. The Pasmanda Muslim Mahaz (Forum of Backward Muslims) is another such group, with branches in Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. It is a welcome expansion of the Muslim identity, putting a much-need emphasis on pluralism within Islam.

The religious component makes up for only a small part of the overall Islamic identity, but is, nevertheless, important. The backward Muslims, by claiming their former caste identities, are today proud of not only being Muslims but also part of the local milieu. It acts as a bridge between an international religion like Islam and a regional culture. The backward sections among Muslims are quite at home with both aspects. It connects them to their Hindu brethren and builds harmonious relations with them.

Claiming backward Muslim identity, the backward communities among Muslims also engage with the state to be more democratic and extend affirmative action to them on the ground that they are backward classes and, therefore, should not be discriminated against in respect of quotas. The Andhra Pradesh Government has recently added some Muslim communities to the list of backward classes and has passed legislation to extend 4 per cent reservation to these groups.

The Sachar Committee Report has once again focussed the attention of the community to the issues of socio-economic backwardness and unity with the backward sections of society, irrespective of religion. It will be a formidable challenge for the secular-democratic leadership within the Muslim community to stay focussed on issues of social justice and equality in spite of all the discriminations, atrocities, human right violations that members of the community and Islam being targeted by the media and inimical forces.

The writer is Director, Center for Study of Society and Secularism, Mumbai
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Post by Gus »

Irfan Ali Engineer wrote:In 1998 there was communal violence in Coimbatore, something unprecedented in Tamil Nadu, in which 27 Muslims were killed when the police fired on an unarmed crowd that had collected to protest an attack by the Hindu Munani. The unilateral attack on Muslims was followed by bomb blasts in the same year in Coimbatore.
This is not the truth.

It all started with a traffic constable Selvaraj stopping 3 muslims (belonging to Al-Umma terrorist group) going "triples" on a bike. They were enraged that a cop dared to stop them and came back later and hacked him. Selvaraj was taken to hospital and died there.

It was this murder that triggered protests from Hindu Munnani and escalated to riots and then shootings by police.

Somehow this becomes "unilateral attacks on muslims" which "justify" bombing people and property. :roll:

More details.
http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pI ... 50054.html
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Post by Gus »

Found this from the same author. The spin will leave you dizzy.

http://www.indianmuslims.info/news/2007 ... lasts.html
Conviction of Basha in Coimbatore Bomb Blasts

By Irfan Engineer

S.A. Basha and 34 persons have been convicted for the conspiracy of bomb blasts in Coimbatore for a life term. There were 4 bomb blasts in Coimbatore on 14 th February 1998. There were 12 blasts in which 54 innocent people died. One of the suicide bombers was to target L.K. Advani, however he did not activate the bomb which was aimed at L.K. Advani as Advani's flight was delayed and had not reached the venue of the meeting on the fateful day. Basha was head of Al Umma, an extremist organization in Tamil Nadu formed in 1993, which had been accused of masterminding the bomb blasts.

Till the eighties, there were hardly any extremist organizations in Tamil Nadu. However, after the demolition of Babri Masjid in 1992, Islamic extremism spread to Tamil Nadu and Al Umma was one such organization. Al Umma targeted RSS headquarters on 8 th August 1993 to take revenge for demolition of Babri Mosque on 6th December 1992 by the Sangh Parivar.

Demolition of Babri Mosque has plunged even the South in a spiral of violence. In early nineties, several extremist organizations came into existence in Tamil Nadu, including Al Umma, Jihad Committee, and the IDF adopt and espouse violence, extensively using coercion, extortion and intimidation to achieve their goals. The goals of extremist organization generally include "protecting" Islam and Muslims by retaliation against the Hindu extremists. However, often the victims are innocent persons. An important aspect of Islamist fundamentalist mobilisation in Tamil Nadu is that it has often been directed more towards countering the activities of Hindu extremist organizations, and is not entirely impelled by an independent vision, or by the mischief of external agencies. Extravagant and aggressive celebrations of Vinayaka Chaturthi, direct verbal attacks on Islam and Muslims by the Hindu Munnani and Hindu Makkal Katchi leaders, contributed to a sense of insecurity among the Muslims.

Every year the Vinayaka Chaturthi celebrations create large-scale disturbances within the local community. Every year there is tension during these festivals, especially with regard to securing permission for the procession. In recent times, the security agencies have become more conscious about such problems and provide maximum security during this period in order to avert the growing tension between the two communities. Provocative speeches and conflicts over the passage of religious processions had aggravated the animosity, and the state government had to intervene on many occasions to prevent untoward incidents.

Even the white paper published by the Tamil Nadu Govt. admitted that the demolition of the Babri Masjid at Ayodhya in December 1992 had upset the Muslims in the state and led to the spread of fundamentalism. Referring to the communal violence preceding the February serial blasts, the white paper referred to the murder of Jehad Committee founder-leader Palani Baba at Pollachi in 1997 by certain RSS activists.

This triggered a series of incidents of communal violence in Coimbatore in which four Muslims and two Hindus lost their lives. The police swung into action and took into custody 43 Muslims and 27 Hindus. The textile city was rocked by communal violence again in November 1997 following the murder of police constable Selvaraj, allegedly by Al Umma activists.

I was part of the fact finding team of PUCL after the communal riots in Coimbatore in 1998. We met the victims, police officials, Hindu Munani leaders and other members of civil society organizations. The events which led to killing of 27 Muslims in police firing are as follows: On 29 th Novenber 1997 Police stopped bike of Jehangir, a member of Al-Umma for traffic violation. Jehangir failed to produce his driving license and communal abuses were hurled upon him. When leader of Al-Umma – Mohammed Ansari intervened, he was beaten with lathis. Inflamed members of Al-Umma stabbed the traffic constable – Selvaraj to death. Large force of Police came to arrest the culprits of Selvaraj's murder. The community leaders intervened and told the police force that it was late in night, and that if the police returned, they would themselves hand over the culprits wanted by the police next day by 11.00 a.m. While returning, the police burnt Muslim platform shops and posters and banners put for mobilization of meeting to be held on 6th December in commemoration of destruction of Babri Masjid. All Muslims, including Al-Umma had condemned murder of Constable Selvaraj. The three accused wanted by police for Slevaraj's murder were handed over next day morning, i.e. on 30th November 1997. On the same day, about 100 policemen wore black badges and staged a dharna for about an hour at Ukkadam, where Selvaraj was murdered, and then proceeded towards Govt. Hospital in a procession demanding that the body of Selvaraj be handed over to them and permit them to take a procession through Muslim majority locality of Kottaimedu locality.

Muslim shops all over the city were being looted with active instigation by the policemen. Many dalits told us that they were encouraged by the police to loot Muslim shops. There were rumours that Hindu Munani accompanied by policemen in procession would enter Kottaaimedu and therefore Muslims also gathered in anxiety as they were hearing the news of their shops being burnt and looted. Ayyub Khan, District Secretary of TMMK (Tamil Muslim Muntra Kazhgam) was pleading the Muslim mob gathered to retreat and they had begun retreating, when a police force led by a DCP at around 12.20 p.m. asked the police to fire on the unarmed retreating mob. The police force entered Poompuhar, then Eswaran Temple Street, Vandikara Street, Vincent Road, Naz theatre lane, Perumal Koil Street and Ukkadam and fired indiscriminately to kill and take "revenge" of Selvaraj's death. 27 Muslims were killed and over 100 persons were injured. Hindu Munani all throughout was with the lawless policemen extending all possible assistance to them and extending moral support.

Hindu Munani followers had also gathered in the campus of Government Hospital and attacking all the injured victims of police firing who were brought for treatment. The DMK MLA C.D. Dhandapani was also gheraoed by policemen and Hindu Munani activists inside the Govt. Hospital Compound and attacked. Some critically injured Muslims died as they could not be treated in time.

By 1st of December, Administration called in Rapid Action Force and CRPF and situation was somewhat brought under control. However, some policemen from Coimbatore managed to shoot at Mohammed Ali who had ventured out to buy Milk for his daughter and at K.N. Annamalai, employed as a driver in State Transport and who was going for his duty. However, there were number of policemen who helped protecting lives of Muslims.

Unlike the communal riots in Mumbai, the society at large was not communalized. Even the victims did not blame Hindus in general for whatever happened in Coimbatore, nor had any love lost between members of the two communities. Ordinary Hindus within and outside Kottaimedu had no dislike for Muslims, though they viewed the Al-Umma activities with suspicion and disapproval. Even the dalits who were encouraged to loot Muslim shops and business did not have any communal prejudice against Muslims.

There are many similarities between the bomb blasts in Mumbai on March 12, 1993 and those in Coimbatore in the year 1998. Both the bombings in Mumbai and in Coimbatore were carried out by some misguided Muslims. Tiger Memon and Dawood Ibrahim being prime suspects in the case of Mumbai blasts and Al-Umma, a Muslim extremist organization which attracted a few Muslim youth in Tamil Nadu, in case of Coimbatore bombings. Both bomb blasts followed the communal riots in which majority of sufferers were Muslims. Victims of the communal riots in both the cases did not get justice nor did they have any hopes of getting justice through our criminal justice system. Consequently, some of the victims could be easily mobilized to carry out the bombings in Mumbai and in Coimbatore.

In Coimbatore as well as in Mumbai, the police and the politicians showed extraordinary zeal in bringing the guilty of the bombings to justice and utterly failed and neglected their constitutional duty to bringing the guilty of communal riots to justice. This establishes a sort of pattern. The right wing Hindu organizations could target minorities with impunity and some of the communalized police officers could also join the right wing Hindu organizations without fearing any reprisals or action against them. If some hot headed Muslim youth or victims of communal riots wrongly decided to "avenge" the riots by violent means like bombings, targeting innocent persons of Hindu community, they would be quickly brought to justice and the police would act overzealously in marshalling all the evidence to convict those guilty of the violent and criminal acts undertaken by some members of minority community.

The only way to break this spiral of violence is for the state to intervene in enforce law without impartially and take action mandated by law against the guilty of bombings as well as communal violence or any hate crime committed by member any community, sect or group or professing any identity.

________________________________________________
Irfan Engineer is Director of Mumbai based Institute of Peace Studies and Conflict Resolution
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Post by Rye »

Irfan Engineer writes:
Extravagant and aggressive celebrations of Vinayaka Chaturthi, direct verbal attacks on Islam and Muslims by the Hindu Munnani and Hindu Makkal Katchi leaders, contributed to a sense of insecurity among the Muslims.
If Muslims like Irfan Engineer think that committing terrorism is the solution for their takleef at "extravagant and agressive" celebration of Hindu festivals, they need to think again. What does "aggressively" celebrating a festival entail, I wonder?

Is this another "moderate" Indian muslim providing convenient excuses for Islamic terrorism under a veil of reasonable rhetoric?

If people can make direct verbal attacks on hindus and hinduism, why is direct verbal attacks on islam and muslims such a crime according to the likes of Irfan Engineer?
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