Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 3

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Dec 2007 13:24

harbans wrote: Neither is the Modi variety IMHO..

What we need is Modi^N where N-->infinity; before the end even people like you will come to see the truth where the blindness of years of dhimmitude cover your eyes.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 28 Dec 2007 13:59

What we need is Modi^N where N-->infinity; before the end even people like you will come to see the truth where the blindness of years of dhimmitude cover your eyes.

Sanku Ji, i am entitled to hold an opinion without recourse to agressive riposte. That is a right that i want my country to defend, including your right to an opinion. That you hold an opinion doesn't mean that i get aggressive with you and stoop to pettiness. That is what liberal values were meant to achieve and did achieve. The freedom to hold a POV, governed by a set of laws. Islamism tends to work to destroy that foundation and claws away at it. I don't care much that Muslims exist or cults exist as long as they don't claw away on freedoms. Similarly when you call people blind, dhimmi, or condescend the into groups like 'people like you' for holding an opinion, it does claw away into that foundation.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2007 14:02

RaviBg wrote:Hindutva and radical Islam: Where the twain do meet - Arun Shourie

â€˜In painting the goddesses, he was just honouring them,â€™ a secular intellectual remarked at a discussion the other day. â€˜It was his way of honouring them.â€™ Fine. It is indeed the case that one of the best ways we can honour someone is to put the one skill we have at the service of the person or deity. But how come that Husain never but never thought of honouring the Prophet by using the same priceless skill, that one â€˜talent which is death to hideâ€™?

Aha! Good article. Shourie writes about the "secular intellectual" whom I have called HISI - Hindu Indian Secular Intellectual.

However, I also have a new name. And to introduce that new name I will make a post that has been bubbling within me for days.

I have three graphics to illustrate my point. I tried to do this in one picture - but have not succeeded (yet)

Picture 1 is the behavior of a true liberal. When faced with Hinduism he may have something to criticise and something to praise. Similarly, when faced with Islam, he may have something to criticise and something to praise.

True Liberal:

Picture 2 shows the behavior of a dhimmi liberal. Fear of Islam (Fatwas, riots, history of headchopping) makes him afraid of being critical of Islam

Picture 2
Dhimmi Liberal (Indian Secular) behavior

Finally Picture 3, is a composite of picture 2 and shows up the behavior of the "Hindu Indian Secular Intellectual" who is actually a liberal, but also a dhimmi, and faces both Islam and Hinduism together in a mixed society.

Now islam and Hinduism have many many "opposites" Islam opposes Hinduism's liberalism, many Gods, idols, compassion for life etc. Islam also opposes any opposition. The dhimmi liberal faces a dilemma when confronted with a mix of Hindus and Islam. Criticizing Islam is a strict no-no. But even praising anything about Hinduism constitutes opposing Islam. So when the HISI/Dhimmi Liberal faces a mixed Hindu and Islamic society his easiest path is to invariably criticize Hindus or invariably praise islam. That explains our secular intellectuals to a T.

He does not have the honesty and guts to understand that he is being a pseudo-liberal and that dhimmi behavior is no longer required.

I bet my testimonials that the dhimmi liberal, on recognizing himself in these pictures will get angry and deny because of cognitive dissonance.

Picture 3
Dhimmi Liberal faced with mixed Hindu Muslim society

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Dec 2007 14:08

Sanku wrote:
harbans wrote: Neither is the Modi variety IMHO..
What we need is Modi^N where N-->infinity; before the end even people like you will come to see the truth where the blindness of years of dhimmitude cover your eyes.

Sanku,

I think Modi is a product and not the cause of what will be a tectonic shift in Hindu thought (as distinct from what is normally defined as Hinduvta). The new generation of Indians, thanks to the connectivity tools which new technology has given, are reaching out to each other a fashioning Hindu culture in their own pattern.

It is my beleif that this will become an unstoppable force which will sweep all aside. Muslims will either join this force culturally (not religionwise) or be swept away. And Dhimmitude, which if you will notice carefully usually is concentrated in the English educated over 35 class of people will be swept away as well.

Coming back to Modi, he's a phenomenon no doubt and my hat's off to him, though truth be told I'm no diehard supporter of the BJP. I once met him in an official capacity and I found him as suave as any international corporate honcho I've met, and in my line of work I meet quite a few. During the half and hour or so I spent with him he actually talked with four/five foreign investors and asked what their problems were and immediately took note and told his sectretary to get back to them within a week. You could see the look of awe in these potential investors (all of them expat Indans).

However, he's as I said the first major product of a new India and will not be the last. Just keep on watching while the old generation of politicos in all parities are swept away.

Added later: When I wrote Hindu thought I actually meant the Indic religions/civilisation. I find little difference in the original concepts of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism as well as the Parsi way of life. Essentially it's all about peaceful co-existance.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Dec 2007 14:31

harbans wrote:What we need is Modi^N where N-->infinity; before the end even people like you will come to see the truth where the blindness of years of dhimmitude cover your eyes.

Sanku Ji, i am entitled to hold an opinion without recourse to agressive riposte.

Ah the problems with you self professed "liberals"; where have I questioned your RIGHT to delude yourself if you so chose? I merely make a prognosis of your belief system as it will evolve!

Thats petty? And you find a confident statement aggressive?

Think about pettiness once more.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Dec 2007 14:33

eklavya wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Why doesn't India have a National Commission for Majorities (like Natl. Comm. for Minorities) ? Who would take care of the situation where the majority rights are trampled or laws are enacted harmful to majority stakeholder's interests or even listen to the plight of the majority ?
Sridhar, is there a model for such a body in another democractic system that you have in mind?

eklavya, I do not know and I do not think that in any other democratic country there will be such a setup. In other countries, the majority population is either favoured or at least not discriminated against under the guise of protecting the minorities, which obviously is not the case in India. We dhimmis have to fight our case and there is no effective body to hear the majority's grievances. It is this lack of cohesiveness that is being exploited. Of course, there will be a tremendous opposition to such a proposal because it will have the power to undercut the exploitation of 'minority sentiments' by the politicians, the media etc.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Dec 2007 14:34

amit wrote:I think Modi is a product and not the cause of what will be a tectonic shift in Hindu thought (as distinct from what is normally defined as Hinduvta).

Agree with every thing you say; however we need more such products and stronger and harder than Modi. I want current Modi to be the LCD of politicos and not amongst the best of them as he is today.

Essentially, dont look now but we seem to be agreeing.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Dec 2007 14:35

Quite a masterpiece of a diagram Shiv guruji. You have a knack of explaining complex concepts in very easy to grasp way - the hallmark of a true 'Teacher'

I would credit you with opening the door to Islam for a lot of laymen like me here.

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Dec 2007 14:43

Sanku wrote: Essentially, dont look now but we seem to be agreeing.

Hey Bro,

We're Argumentative Indians - we are like that onlee (there, my small contribution to Dhimmitude).

If we start agreeing on everything then we begin to sound like the drones from the Middle Kingdom who preiodically visit BRF on orders of Uncle Jiang.

Suffice we agree on the one big thing: Mera Bharat Mahan!

Rest of time lets fight because that what makes my (ours, that is) India great! Our biggest weapon in this ideological fight is our capacity to generate new ideas and perspectives.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Dec 2007 14:47

well "some" measure of agreement is good "sometimes" otherwise how do we unite to get anything done?

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Dec 2007 14:53

Sanku wrote:

well "some" measure of agreement is good "sometimes" otherwise how do we unite to get anything done?

The agreement comes when after the churn a new idea emerges which has elements of both original ideas - maybe some of more, less of the other, but nonetheless a child of the two original ideas.

In that way there is not only true consensus but also the best possible fit. I think that's the reason why, despite everything, India is what it is today and does not resembe Terroristan or its little estrangled brother Bangladesh.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 28 Dec 2007 15:03

Sanku chill. Like the Islamist variety i don't think you comprehend that different opinions contribute to keeping certain freedoms and that there's a decency in debate that comes without recourse to unnecessary name calling and condescension in a true liberal culture. Fact is calling someone dhimmi, deluded, blind does amount to bait and switch. So while i would'nt shed tears for Benazir, i would'nt be dancing out loud too. Something that you have in common with the Pakis in the UK midlands.

niran · Post by **niran** » 28 Dec 2007 15:14

Respected Shivji,
Am sorry I bunked your class of Islamic studies. ( BB blast is to blame). Thank you very much. You have an extraordinary knack to enlighten.
regards

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Dec 2007 15:26

harbans wrote:Sanku chill. Like the Islamist variety .

Ah ha the mask drops. The "liberal" takes great pains when his/her reality is called upon for all to see; however thinks nothing about offering sophisticated (or what the poor fellow thinks as sophist-i-cation) insults to members who disagree; all in the name of "fair" debate; and having the sense to "comprehend that different opinions "

Boss if you had the good sense to "comprehend that different opinions " as you tout; you would have taken my predictions with "perhaps we will see" instead of name calling.

So if I am a Islamist (ooh la la) what does that make you

As for dancing when Ravana dies; yes I do that on Diwali every year; very boisterously too in fact; and any other time Ravana dies in between as well.

To country bumpkin for you? So sarry saar we rustic cow belters are like this onlee....

Sarry Shivjee last post.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had to add this since we are closely examining cognitive dissonance in this thread and this seemed like too good an example to miss

harbans wrote:there's a decency in debate that comes without recourse to unnecessary name calling and condescension in a true liberal culture

harbans wrote:Sanku chill. Like the Islamist variety i don't think you comprehend

In the same post side by side, really really nice.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 28 Dec 2007 15:43

The "liberal" takes great pains when his/her reality is called upon for all to see; however thinks nothing about offering sophisticated (or what the poor fellow thinks as sophist-i-cation) insults to members who disagree; all in the name of "fair" debate; and having the sense to "comprehend that different opinions "

This is what you do to people who differ from you. Don't play the bait and switch. You do play that well.

Boss if you had the good sense to "comprehend that different opinions " as you tout; you would have taken my predictions with "perhaps we will see" instead of name calling.

You're the one doing that consistently.

As for dancing on Diwali, i'd educate you that it's not celebrated because Ravana died, but for Rams homecoming. So if you are doing a jig then, you're doing it for all the wrong reasons as you and the Paki's in UK did last night.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2007 15:48

Harbans and sanku please stop responding to each other thanks. The thread is being derailed'

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 28 Dec 2007 16:01

Shiv Ji, why donÂ´t you publish what youÂ´ve written here and in the Islamism thread as a collection of essays for the benefit of all ? I have not come across
such lucid expositions of the psyche of so called secular Hindu intellectuals and how to confront their dhimmitude.

The HindutvadiÂ´s simply lack the intellect and/or the proficiency in English to adequately tackle these core issues ( well they should be core issues ), they canÂ´t seem to go beyond the Â´pseudo-secularÂ´ label. I have to admit that I too am not able to express my thoughts in English as fluently as I would like since English isnÂ´t even my second language, I always have translate my thoughts from other languages into English.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2007 16:08

Thanks for all the encouraging comments folks. I will publish. While my aim is a book eventually - I surely will get down to some articles sooner or later.

But I now have one heck of a lot of material, starting from the original dissection of islamism in the "Inside the mind of the Mullah" threads to gaming Islam to figuring out Hindoo mind.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Dec 2007 16:21

shiv wrote:
True Liberal:

Picture 2
Dhimmi Liberal (Indian Secular) behavior

Picture 3
Dhimmi Liberal faced with mixed Hindu Muslim society

Shiv ,These are important social engineering products which you have depicted. Please continue and make a library of these end products. These are long term classic analysis.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 28 Dec 2007 16:30

Shiv, I had understood that a populat tenet of traditional Hinduism is that "vasudev kutumb kam" (the whole world is a family). Doesn't that suggest that tolerance and secularism are not alien to traditional Hindu thought? Any answers gratefully considered.

wamanrao · Post by **wamanrao** » 28 Dec 2007 16:46

While Shivji postulates the existence of the HISI Dhimmi, an extension could be made to accomodate the complement to this i.e. the Islamic Dhimmi.

In Gujarat, we see a lot of muslim intellectuals who actually throw their weight behind the BJP. This includes the Bandukwala type. The BJP also has it's token muslims ala Shanawaz Hussein.

My grievance with this entire "classification" is that while bleeding heart HISI types like Kuldip Nayar may exist, there is also a space where genuine accomodationists exist. They are not strongly allied to a rabid Hindutva ideology, are incensed by militant Islam, but want to see India metamorphose into a "melting pot" society like the US where religion becomes a private affair for everyone and a common civil code governs the land.

The current classification leaves no room for that.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Dec 2007 17:21

eklavya wrote:Shiv, I had understood that a populat tenet of traditional Hinduism is that "vasudev kutumb kam" (the whole world is a family). Doesn't that suggest that tolerance and secularism are not alien to traditional Hindu thought? Any answers gratefully considered.

The concept of tolerance and secularism being propagated by the media, leftist intellectuals and sociologists is a manufactured and phony one. This started as a result of deep studies in the 60s and 70s in various south asia studies dept.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Dec 2007 17:34

wamanrao wrote:

The current classification leaves no room for that.

THis classification is suitable for studying political sociology

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 28 Dec 2007 17:41

Acharya wrote:
eklavya wrote:Shiv, I had understood that a populat tenet of traditional Hinduism is that "vasudev kutumb kam" (the whole world is a family). Doesn't that suggest that tolerance and secularism are not alien to traditional Hindu thought? Any answers gratefully considered.
The concept of tolerance and secularism being propagated by the media, leftist intellectuals and sociologists is a manufactured and phony one. This started as a result of deep studies in the 60s and 70s in various south asia studies dept.

Acharya, "vasudeb kutumb kan" is, as you probably know, from the Bhagwad Gita, which, as you know, is not a product of the media, leftist intellectuals, or a sociologist. So, my original questions stands.

Now, what about Mahatma Gandhi's favourite bhajan "Raghupati Rajav Raja Ram":

Raghupati Raghav raja Ram, patit pavan Sita Ram
Sita Ram Sita Ram, Bhaj pyare tu Sitaram
Ishwar Allah tero naam, Saab ko Sanmti de Bhagavan

"Ishwar Allah tero naam" sounds like a powerful call to tolerance, at least to me. Maybe I am mistaken.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Dec 2007 17:54

I am talking about the political slogan and political philosophy of secularism and not about the religion and historic Indic tolerence in religion and society.
There is a distinction between this.

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 28 Dec 2007 18:00

eklavya wrote:Ishwar Allah tero naam" sounds like a powerful call to tolerance, at least to me. Maybe I am mistaken.

Maybe you are - because you are selectively quoting Bhagwad Gita / Gandhi's favourite song with out understanding (delibrately or otherwise) the circumstances/relevance of the two.
Take "Vasudeva Kutumbakam" for instance: In the present circumstances of Dar Ul Islam/72 houris on Shaheedization/Jehad/ blah blah - do you think it wise to quote just this part of Bhagwad Gita and ignore the rest of the message? FYI the Gita also talks about duties, fighting adharma and what not it will help to understand Hindu secularism with that in context.
In so far as Gandhi is concerned - despite his talk of "Ishwar Allah Tero Naam" blah blah we ended up with partition based on religious lines, riots and what not so what ever he may have believed, it did not work on ground with the rest - and Gandhi was not the leader of all the Hindus or an authority on Hinduism.
What I am trying to say is please do not selectively quote stuff and try to understand the relevance of a quote and the circumstances/context around it.
I will sincerely suggest you read a lot of what has already been written unless you want to be seen as a commie troll - IMHO, JMT and all that.
cheers,
Saumitra

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 28 Dec 2007 18:11

Maybe I am mistaken.

No you are not. The concept of tolerance in India is not a manufacture of leftists and sociologists. Acharya Ji has clarified he distinguishes between the so called secular tolerance expected of dhimmitude and the historic societal and religious tolerance that India has always possessed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2007 18:13

eklavya wrote:Shiv, I had understood that a populat tenet of traditional Hinduism is that "vasudev kutumb kam" (the whole world is a family). Doesn't that suggest that tolerance and secularism are not alien to traditional Hindu thought? Any answers gratefully considered.

I will have to digress from Islamic extremism for this, because the tackling of islamic extremism is only one small part of the problem.

I have an entire essay to write on secularism - it is in my mind now and I will write about that separately, but I will only mention the word here.

eklavya I sense a dichotomy in India at this point in time and that dichotmy is different from the usual "secular-Hindutva" divide that we imagine.

I mentioned this dichotomy earlier.

The "average hindu on the ground" is definitely "tolerant" but he is also "free and undhimmified". He gives the average Muslim on the ground space to live and he protects his freedom to celebrate his "kafirosity". The Muslim "on the ground" too does not have any great axe to grind with the Hindu and tolerates.

What we are seeing is a war for space being fought at a different level. Islamic extremism is only part of the problem, but Islam was the source of the problem. It is less of a problem now.

Islam, in order to survive in India built up a large number of dhimmis who later ascended to postions of power on the back of Macaulay. These dhimmis are actually a hindrance to India.

For whatever reason, history ensured that Hindus got a bad reputation. Hindu thoughts, customs and knowledge took a serious beating for over 1000 years for many reasons that we have listed on this thread:

1) Hindus themselves were inward looking and accepting of one and all, and did not know what hit them when Islam arrived.

2) Muslims created a class of dhimmi Hindus who under pain of punishment or death had to accept that Islam was supreme, and that Hinduism had to be kept in the background as an also ran. While Islam did this - it did not destroy Hinduism.

3) The British, who conquered Islam and the world saw Hinduism as a defeated and worthless force through the dhimmitude they found. They saw nothing in Hindu thought and practice to help them maintain an industrially driven empire with its technology, science, economy and governance. They stopped funding Hindu education, and created a class of brown British Hindus who hated all things Hindu with a vehemence that enabled them to be "British" and integrate a rural, primitive India into the world economy - which in those days was the same as the British Colonial economy.

The British, along with brown British Hindus were instrumental is conjuring up every single argument to show that Hindus are rubbish. They also invented every single Hindu-Muslim equal equal argument that we hear today.

Now if you ignore the Hindu "on the ground" within India whom I mentioned earlier, we find that newly educated Hindus who join the global economy still have to suppress, ignore and curse their own heritage and vast knowledge.

They find that they have to do this because of two factors:

1) All the existing knowledge in the world - starting from ye olde Encylopaedia Brittanica and all its modern descendants either tell you NOTHING about Hindus and Hinduism or whatever is written is the usual rubbish.

2) Any effort to change this rubbish is opposed by the descendants of the brown British Hindus. Even if anyone in the West is willing to listen to new information on Hindus and their view, it is basically opposed by the HISI Brown British Hindus descendants and their words count. They have the ears of the goras who own the media. You are accused of being a "hindutavdi" who is trying to "rewrite history".

If you try and bring up any Hindu viewpoint, these British brown Hindu seculars (HISI) call you a Hindu fundamentalist, a follower of the caste system and untouchability and a killer people.

This problem exists in every sphere of life in India. For the purpose of this thread, I am referring ONLY to the extent that the problem affects fighting Islamic extremism in India.

So, when we oppose Islamic extremism, the same HISI, Indian secular brown British Hindus immediately disagree with you and say that you are being "intolerant". They do not realise that THEY are being intolerant to a Hindu viewpoint. they accuse Hindus of intolerance because that is what they feel, based on dhimmitude and the distaste for being Hindu brought in by British "global" education.

Combating Islamic extremism in India is hampered by a blindness of a large number of educated intellectual Indians that their own views of Islam are colored by dhimmitude, and a hatred for Hinduism. And when these people address the "aam junta" who have no innate dhimmitude, they teach them that they must "tolerate" being blown up by terrorists, or "tolerate" their sons dying in the Army, fighting terrorism. If they do not "tolerate" all this shit, Muslims will get upset.

The people tolerate, and when they get sick and tired, they kill. Then the seculars say "Oh these Hindus used to be tolerant. They are being made intolerant by Hindutvadis"

Sorry for the long post. I will write about secularism separately.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 28 Dec 2007 18:15

The way I see it the psecs (or HISIs ) and lefties are being let down by the one group that can do no wrong.

Yup, the izlamists.

Has led many to wonder "What do radical muzlims have to do to get bad press?"

The propaganda videos, tapes, books, textbooks released by the wahhabis, Hamas, pakis etc everywhere (freely available in Brit mosques, apparently) have been desperately suppressed and whitewashed by Dhimmedia. Its not like they don't know. Its more like they don't want to know. They're too heavily invested in their current position.

Still, self-goals by the izlamists remain our bestest hope.

Street dancing post 9/11, celebrating Pak kirket wins, deafening silence on HUJI blasts but 1000s descending to protest Dubya or the cartoons, the brazen attacks and justifications on Taslima.... aaah.... where would we be without it all?

Still, sticking my neck out, I can say the jihadists and their sickular allies are losing the grassroots opinion battle. Slowly but surely, the yindoo masses are seeing what they weren't supposed to see. Even mainstream news-vehicles like IE and TOI now give some space to the counter-view (Shourie, Tarun etc) because not doing so made their bias untenable.

There is hope.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2007 18:30

After 4-5 years of irritation, I stared subscribing to National Geographic again.

In one issue in the last 2-3 months there is a detailed article about brain function and memory.

And the deep, deep scholar who has researched memory has this to say.

Is there anything odd about the passage What do YOU think?

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2 ... text5.html

It's hard for us to imagine what it must have been like to live in a culture before the advent of printed books or before you could carry around a ballpoint pen and paper to jot notes. "In a world of few books, and those mostly in communal libraries, one's education had to be remembered, for one could never depend on having continuing access to specific material," writes Mary Carruthers, author of The Book of Memory, a study of the role of memory techniques in medieval culture. "Ancient and medieval people reserved their awe for memory. Their greatest geniuses they describe as people of superior memories." Thirteenth-century theologian Thomas Aquinas, for example, was celebrated for composing his Summa Theologica entirely in his head and dictating it from memory with no more than a few notes. The Roman philosopher Seneca the Elder could repeat 2,000 names in the order they'd been given to him. A Roman named Simplicius could recite Virgil by heartâ€”backward. A strong memory was seen as the greatest of virtues since it represented the internalization of a universe of external knowledge. Indeed, a common theme in the lives of the saints was that they had extraordinary memories.
After Simonides' discovery, the art of memory was codified with an extensive set of rules and instructions by the likes of Cicero and Quintilian and in countless medieval memory treatises. Students were taught not only what to remember but also techniques for how to remember it. In fact, there are long traditions of memory training in many cultures. The Jewish Talmud, embedded with mnemonicsâ€”techniques for preserving memoriesâ€”was passed down orally for centuries. Koranic memorization is still considered a supreme achievement among devout Muslims. Traditional West African griots and South Slavic bards recount colossal epics entirely from memory.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 28 Dec 2007 18:36

VSudhir wrote

Still, sticking my neck out, I can say the jihadists and their sickular allies are losing the grassroots opinion battle. Slowly but surely, the yindoo masses are seeing what they weren't supposed to see. Even mainstream news-vehicles like IE and TOI now give some space to the counter-view (Shourie, Tarun etc) because not doing so made their bias untenable.

Agree totally with you, Now comes the hard part of making these people who have seen through this double game actually go and vote. Psecs are only interested in votes and power, once they realise that appeasement is going to be counter-productive they will not think twice before ditching their Simi bed-fellows

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2007 18:47

harbans wrote: Acharya Ji has clarified he distinguishes between the so called secular tolerance expected of dhimmitude and the historic societal and religious tolerance that India has always possessed.

Beautifully put. There is an artificially cooked up definition of tolerance that is made hang over Hindus' heads like the sword of Damocles. (Being the Macaulayite I am, I do not recall the Hindu story equivalent of this)

If Hindus do not behave in a manner that suits the Macaulay-dhimmi (HISI) worldview - he is termed "intolerant" and a follower of "right wing" Hindutva ideology

Yugandhar · Post by **Yugandhar** » 28 Dec 2007 18:58

Shiv wrote

And the deep, deep scholar who has researched memory has this to say.

Is there anything odd about the passage What do YOU think?

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2 ... text5.html

Quote:
It's hard for us to imagine what it must have been like to live in a culture before the advent of printed books or before you could carry around a ballpoint pen and paper to jot notes. "In a world of few books, and those mostly in communal libraries, one's education had to be remembered, for one could never depend on having continuing access to specific material," writes Mary Carruthers, author of The Book of Memory, a study of the role of memory techniques in medieval culture. "Ancient and medieval people reserved their awe for memory. Their greatest geniuses they describe as people of superior memories." Thirteenth-century theologian Thomas Aquinas, for example, was celebrated for composing his Summa Theologica entirely in his head and dictating it from memory with no more than a few notes. The Roman philosopher Seneca the Elder could repeat 2,000 names in the order they'd been given to him. A Roman named Simplicius could recite Virgil by heartâ€”backward. A strong memory was seen as the greatest of virtues since it represented the internalization of a universe of external knowledge. Indeed, a common theme in the lives of the saints was that they had extraordinary memories.
After Simonides' discovery, the art of memory was codified with an extensive set of rules and instructions by the likes of Cicero and Quintilian and in countless medieval memory treatises. Students were taught not only what to remember but also techniques for how to remember it. In fact, there are long traditions of memory training in many cultures. The Jewish Talmud, embedded with mnemonicsâ€”techniques for preserving memoriesâ€”was passed down orally for centuries. Koranic memorization is still considered a supreme achievement among devout Muslims. Traditional West African griots and South Slavic bards recount colossal epics entirely from memory. And the deep, deep scholar who has researched memory has this to say.

Is there anything odd about the passage What do YOU think?

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2 ... text5.html

Quote:
It's hard for us to imagine what it must have been like to live in a culture before the advent of printed books or before you could carry around a ballpoint pen and paper to jot notes. "In a world of few books, and those mostly in communal libraries, one's education had to be remembered, for one could never depend on having continuing access to specific material," writes Mary Carruthers, author of The Book of Memory, a study of the role of memory techniques in medieval culture. "Ancient and medieval people reserved their awe for memory. Their greatest geniuses they describe as people of superior memories." Thirteenth-century theologian Thomas Aquinas, for example, was celebrated for composing his Summa Theologica entirely in his head and dictating it from memory with no more than a few notes. The Roman philosopher Seneca the Elder could repeat 2,000 names in the order they'd been given to him. A Roman named Simplicius could recite Virgil by heartâ€”backward. A strong memory was seen as the greatest of virtues since it represented the internalization of a universe of external knowledge. Indeed, a common theme in the lives of the saints was that they had extraordinary memories.
After Simonides' discovery, the art of memory was codified with an extensive set of rules and instructions by the likes of Cicero and Quintilian and in countless medieval memory treatises. Students were taught not only what to remember but also techniques for how to remember it. In fact, there are long traditions of memory training in many cultures. The Jewish Talmud, embedded with mnemonicsâ€”techniques for preserving memoriesâ€”was passed down orally for centuries. Koranic memorization is still considered a supreme achievement among devout Muslims. Traditional West African griots and South Slavic bards recount colossal epics entirely from memory.

the thing that srikes me as odd is that this "well" researched author does not mention the memory traditions of India. I can`t recall the name of those brahmins who had to be read out a passage only once and they could reel it out any day. Memorising the vedas is still in vogue, atleast all the the pujaris do it. And there is this great tradition of "Avadhanis" who were not only good at memorising but also could be extempore poets, debaters and so on.

indygill · Post by **indygill** » 28 Dec 2007 19:09

Mumbai to hold candlelight vigil in Benazir's memory

Several Mumbai organisations plan to hold a silent candle light vigil in the memory of the slain Pakistani leader Benazir Bhutto in Mumbai on Saturday.

Pakistan-India Peoples Forum for Peace & Democracy (PIPFPD) and Peace Mumbai, an umbrella organisation of similar voluntary groups, are holding the vigil and have appealed to the residents of the metropolis to participate in large numbers.

"It (vigil) will be held at the Gateway of India in south Mumbai. Our aim is to protest against violence in Pakistan, Benazir's assassination and to express solidarity with the people of that country," said Jatin Desai, general secretary of PIPFPD.

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Now this is way way too much. It is an insult to the plight of the "Hindu Kashmiris" and also to all the victims of "jihadi" attacks that happened thanks to Bhutto's policies & support of Taliban and Isamism during her tenures as PM.

It is this kind of provocative and stupid Dhimmi attitude at the expense of Hindu "Suffering" and "sentiments" that needs to "STOP". There seems to be no respect for Hindu "blood"

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 28 Dec 2007 19:10

shiv wrote:After 4-5 years of irritation, I stared subscribing to National Geographic again.

I understand your source of irritation, and it is getting on my nerves too...their one-dimensional protrayal of India (with proof that 'things are changing now for the better...'). They have a vested interest in presenting information with an exotic twist/spin. It is a huge problem because a lot of kids (atleast in the US and perhaps rest of the Engl0sih-speaking world) get their first impressions of India via this book. Things may have changed in this internet age though.

Is there anything odd about the passage What do YOU think?

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2 ... text5.html

It's hard for us to imagine what it must have been like to live in a culture before the advent of printed books or before you could carry around a ballpoint pen and paper to jot notes. "In a world of few books, and those mostly in communal libraries, one's education had to be remembered, for one could never depend on having continuing access to specific material," writes Mary Carruthers, author of The Book of Memory, a study of the role of memory techniques in medieval culture. "Ancient and medieval people reserved their awe for memory. Their greatest geniuses they describe as people of superior memories." Thirteenth-century theologian Thomas Aquinas, for example, was celebrated for composing his Summa Theologica entirely in his head and dictating it from memory with no more than a few notes. The Roman philosopher Seneca the Elder could repeat 2,000 names in the order they'd been given to him. A Roman named Simplicius could recite Virgil by heartâ€”backward. A strong memory was seen as the greatest of virtues since it represented the internalization of a universe of external knowledge. Indeed, a common theme in the lives of the saints was that they had extraordinary memories.

Thanks for posting this para Shiv, this issue was bugging me for a while. This explains something about ancient Indians' approach to learning, (a lot of) which of which has spilled over into modern education- rote learning.

About oddness, as far as I can see, there is no mention of the strong tradition of memorization of Hindu texts and its oral transmittal of knowledge. (Added later: I see others have posted prior to this.)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2007 19:11

Yugandhar wrote: the thing that srikes me as odd is that this "well" researched author does not mention the memory traditions of India. I can`t recall the name of those brahmins who had to be read out a passage only once and they could reel it out any day. Memorising the vedas is still in vogue, atleast all the the pujaris do it. And there is this great tradition of "Avadhanis" who were not only good at memorising but also could be extempore poets, debaters and so on.

Exactly Yugandhar.

"Information space" in the world contains nothing positive about Hindus - or at least the little there is ignores a huge universe of Hindus and Hinduism.

This universe was raped by Islam, and buried by the British, but its rebirth is basically being delayed by a bunch of Hindu seculars with fossilized brains who claim that "Right wing Hindutva killer ideology" is being spread.

If Indian intellectuals continue to think that the Hindus on the ground will forever put up with having their culture and sensitivities buried under accusations of intolerance - the will not give a fck anymore and start grabbing the space they want. Seculars or no seculars. This is the danger that I believe HISI seculars are aiding, rather than avoiding with sensitive understanding of ALL viewpoints rather than selective suppression of some.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 28 Dec 2007 20:21

i am a bit sick now cant make detailed post, about memorization please look up paaTha (recitation) -- there was not one but multiple ways to memorize and recite and there are checks to prevent tampering and this was built on linguistics. they reduced it to a science so to speak. examples include ...vaakya, pada, jata etc etc and the mother of all ghana paaTha systems.

now the question is, forget western worldview, how many of our own school texts themselves teach or even inform about the existence of these methods?

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 28 Dec 2007 20:29

Yugandhar wrote: the thing that srikes me as odd is that this "well" researched author does not mention the memory traditions of India. I can`t recall the name of those brahmins who had to be read out a passage only once and they could reel it out any day. Memorising the vedas is still in vogue, atleast all the the pujaris do it. And there is this great tradition of "Avadhanis" who were not only good at memorising but also could be extempore poets, debaters and so on.

Memorization is legenedary but is it is not complete story of the Indic system. The Samskritam language construct is highly refined (phonetic too), with vocabulary of exemplary nature. The sutras are concise with no unnecessary verbiage, so it is easier for transmission of knowledge. Example of Patanjali's Yoga Sutra comes to mind. The very first vakhya after invocation summarizes what is going to follow. The rest are elaboration to reveal the import of the summary.

OT: Acharayaji welcome back.

Yugandhar · Post by **Yugandhar** » 28 Dec 2007 20:36

I can`t recall the name of those brahmins who had to be read out a passage only once and they could reel it out any day.

Got it...

The name for those people who needed to hear a passage once to memorise are called "Ekasantagrahi", there are dwisantagrahi`s who need to hear it twice. These people were hired by kings of yore to record court transactions.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 28 Dec 2007 21:01

shiv wrote:This universe was raped by Islam, and buried by the British,

This is a quotable quote. If there is a thread on BRF on quotations, this should go there.

It can be a tile of a book too.