Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 5

[svinayak]

One thing that always struck me, was that outsiders (as well as our own people) were very prone to undermining, and under-estimating us.
A typical SDRE is under-estimated (and undermined), and this is what I draw (mental) strength from. Undermine, underestimate and dismiss me, while I calmly slip under the radar, and surprise you.

Good observation about "as our own people".
This is a 50 years of indoctrination using sociology studies of Indians, media psy ops and education which has resulted in educated Indians prone to undermining, and under-estimating us.

[Prem]

Yeah but what if one is SDRE, is it not offensive?

No, he can be considred Super Duper Rat (jihadi) Exterminator.

[shiv]

What is this? some type of South Indian revenge

Not at all. In fact I was the originator - maybe late 1990s on BRF. IIRC and it came from the report that Benazir Bhutto is said to have remarked about her own education. She said that she was taught in school that West Pakistanis are tall, fair and eat wheat while East Pakistani Bengalis are short dark and eat rice. I connected this up with a comment I saw on a Paku unmentionable forum that spoke of thin Indian soldiers with skinny arms.

It was only after I read that comment I realised that this physical appearance was piskologically important to the Paki and one of the ways of shaming him would be to make fun of it. Hence the joke TFTA vs SDRE was coined. It had great utility when it was possible to credit the Paki with greatness even when he failed - because TFTA is "great" and SDRE can never be great or right.

So it started as a sarcastic joke to undermine PakRape self image on the internet, and got extended to every Indian. The minute we "SDRE"s start believing our own joke - the joke is on us and we are the same as the Paki who takes his TFTA seriously.

[shiv]

Reflecting some more on Kaleem Kwaja's post where denial and obfuscation of truth were seen, it is imperative that nothing stands in the way of (minor details such as facts or truths be damned) capture of political space for islam.
,,,
If a maximalist solution is to be pursued, it would imply islam is incorrigible and hence islam (not muslims, who are the first victims of islam) itself should be removed.

Spot on!!

The problem is Islam. Not Muslims. When you hit at Muslims at large, you hit at a lot of good people who have personally come to terms and softened the worst in Islam despite the murderous restrictions that dry-desert Islam places on them. It is these people's vision that needs to live on and not the dry desert tribal thug religion that is being pushed down throats - with all its egregious instructions on how you can sexually use women whom you possess (by a kidnap raid) "in your right hand"

If we really want to speak dharma and the truth, the problem is Islam. Islam needs to be modified to live with others or else.

You sit in India talking dharma in the land that originated dharma - and you have this adharmic scourge that has come in like a pestilence - the least one should do is identify what the problem is don't you think?

One need not be anti-Muslim. Most Muslims are good. Islam in its pure state is a problem. It survives and propagates by threats and bullying. Criticizing Islam means death. What is the difference between that and the thoughts of any murderous two-bit dictator of which the world has seen many?

[vsudhir]

The problem is Islam. Not Muslims. When you hit at Muslims at large, you hit at a lot of good people who have personally come to terms and softened the worst in Islam despite the murderous restrictions that dry-desert Islam places on them. It is these people's vision that needs to live on and not the dry desert tribal thug religion that is being pushed down throats - with all its egregious instructions on how you can sexually use women whom you possess (by a kidnap raid) "in your right hand"

If we really want to speak dharma and the truth, the problem is Islam. Islam needs to be modified to live with others or else.

With all due respect, it has been clear to me from day one that the problem is islam. The reason is that any statement such as 'all muslims are bad' is necessarily wrong because of the use of 'all'. There maybe moderate muslims, but there is no moderate islam.

Ideally, under fairness and reciprocity, dharmics get to criticize and shine truth on islam just the way islam disparages all infidels right now.

It is my belief that given sufficiently strong countervailing force, most muslims, given adequate chance/excuse, will bail out of islam. Muslims are right;ly identified as islam's first victims. They'll hopefully apostacize and leave creating a domino in their wake (OK, best case scenario).

It requires the right highlighting of apostate stories (some would call it psy-war) and an unforgivingly rational critique of islam per se that'll tilt the balance.

Again, this will likely happen first in the west and India will react. JMTs of course.

[asprinzl]

The problem is Islam. Not Muslims. When you hit at Muslims at large, you hit at a lot of good people who have personally come to terms and softened the worst in Islam despite the murderous restrictions that dry-desert Islam places on them. It is these people's vision that needs to live on and not the dry desert tribal thug religion that is being pushed down throats - with all its egregious instructions on how you can sexually use women whom you possess (by a kidnap raid) "in your right hand"

If we really want to speak dharma and the truth, the problem is Islam. Islam needs to be modified to live with others or else.

With all due respect, it has been clear to me from day one that the problem is islam. The reason is that any statement such as 'all muslims are bad' is necessarily wrong because of the use of 'all'. There maybe moderate muslims, but there is no moderate islam.

Ideally, under fairness and reciprocity, dharmics get to criticize and shine truth on islam just the way islam disparages all infidels right now.

It is my belief that given sufficiently strong countervailing force, most muslims, given adequate chance/excuse, will bail out of islam. Muslims are right;ly identified as islam's first victims. They'll hopefully apostacize and leave creating a domino in their wake (OK, best case scenario).

It requires the right highlighting of apostate stories (some would call it psy-war) and an unforgivingly rational critique of islam per se that'll tilt the balance.

Again, this will likely happen first in the west and India will react. JMTs of course.

That is why people like Taslima Nasreen must be cheered and supported by concerned Hindus. She is a critic of Islam. She needs Hindu support. Anybody?
Avram

[vsudhir]

Muslim aggression in Buddhist Ladakh (Tarun Vijay in TOI)

Buddhists fear an assault on their culture and traditions through the conversion of Buddhist girls and a planned effort to outnumber Buddhists through a population aggression.

In 1992 an agreement was signed between the Ladakh Muslim Association and Ladakh Buddhist Association, the supreme organization of Ladakh representing Buddhists, at the intervention of Ministry of Home Affairs ensuring that the Buddhists converted to Islam shall be allowed to return to their original faith, but the Muslims never honoured the agreement.

The following points were raised by the Buddhist Association in a memorandum to the Central Government -

1. During 1992-99, 24 Buddhist girls from Leh district were converted to Islam and majority of them were taken to Kargil.

2. Twelve villages with hamlets of Buddhists, comprising 651 families (numbering app. 5000 persons) located at 40 to 60 kms from Kargil town were targeted for conversions. Till 2002, 72 boys and girls were converted to Islam as per the survey conducted by the Ladakh Buddhist Association.

3. Muslims of Kargil are not allowing the LBA to repair and reconstruct a 40 year old. Gompa comprising three rooms and at present lying in shambles.

4. Cremation of dead Buddhists is not allowed at Kargil and the body has to be moved at a remote Buddhist area.

5. No Buddhist Sarai is allowed to be constructed at Kargil though there has been a demand for the last 35 years.

6. Six new mosques have been constructed at Leh town during 1989-99 in close vicinity of Buddhist habitations and in a planned manner more than 540 Muslim families have been settled at Leh, majority of them coming from Kargil.

7. Kargil has 20% Buddhist population. Yet (a) only one Buddhist was appointed as patwari out of 24 patwaris, the rest were all Muslims. (b) In 1998, 40 employees for class IV were appointed in education department, out of these only one was Buddhist, that too after his conversion to Islam.

Might as well see what we are up against.

[G Subramaniam]

4. This is not a scare tactic. Many posters have claimed a linear relationship between muslim % and effectiveness of votebank,
whereas in actuality, between 15% and 40% anti-muslim candidates tend to win

One place to test this is the entire border districts around Bangladesh from South Paraganas, into Assam, Meghalaya and Tripura. Does this theory hold there as most of the districts there will exceed 15% muslim population?

In Tripura and West Bengal this is somewhat diluted by CPM vote rigging

However in 2004 election in Chandernagar, WB, 40% muslim, BJP candidate got 40% of the vote ( and lost )
This is near the second inflection point

In 2004 Assam, BJP won in Nagaon and Mangaldoi both 40% muslim
and got 40% of the vote and lost in Karimganj 45% muslim


BJP also gets a lot of votes from xtian tribals in the north east
BJP has often been in coalition govts in Nagaland, 90% xtian
Meghalaya 65% xtian

Let us analyse this
A distinction has to be made between the common xtian and the EJ church apparatus

The church is hard wired to be pro-muslim and anti-hindu

On the ground level, xtian tribals are finding BD illegals raping, rioting and doing other islamic things

When the xtian tribal turns to his church he finds the door shut
The church is willing to scream if the aggressor is a hindu, but will never say a word against muslims
Hence a sizable minority of xtian tribals vote for BJP

In the barak valley in Assam, lower Assam, BJP gets about 60% of the hindu votes, but since the region is BD infested, BJP needs to raise this to 80% to win

Lower Assam is near the second inflection point

[shiv]

Again, when I reflect on the discussions we have here and the opinions posted, I sense an interesting thought process.

Secular and liberal Hindus in India were willing to accept that they were responsible for many ills, and that other religions - particularly Islam really were enlightened and peaceful as they were made out to be.

Because Islam was so enlightened the formation of Pakistan was a shock. Liberal Hindus were willing to adjust and learn. Had Hindus not tried to eliminate all that was bad? Had Hindus not put in an effort to eliminate caste and other practices (eg Sati) that they were taught was bad? Why were Muslims insulting them so by pulling away?

However the Muslims who made Pakistan had another view. I suspect the knew damn well they were living on borrowed time. They had used all the violent and discriminatory clauses of islam to garner privileges, and suspected that sooner or later the tide would turn after they had lost armed power.

The Muslims who made Pakistan knew that their privileges lay with armed strength. After all, subjugation and dhimmitude, imposition of Islamic laws, taking women in "your right hand" are all linked with being an armed thug. So they decided to go to fortress Pakistan. And a fortress it was - with the military rightly being recognised as the fountain of Islamic privileges.

What is happening today is a continuation of that history.

Expressed in three words it is "Failure of islam"

Hindus in India were worried that the greatness of Islam would once again rise from Pakistan and seek domination rather than coexistence, which is what Hindu dharma calls for. Hindus used their voting might in India only to try and make laws that were equal to all. In fact, as we have discussed - the laws are still not equal and are somewhat biased against Hindus - with Islam being left relatively untouched.

But islam has showed its true colors in Pakistan. Hatred, bigotry, murder and mayhem are all justified by every party in the name of Islam. Unfortunately for India - the same disease infests Bangladesh.

The disease manifests in India as constant complaining by Muslim groups that they are being somehow suppressed and discriminated against. They are not. Muslims are allowed more freedoms in India than all those other terrible islamic nations. But yet we have Islamic whiners like Kawaja and Khalidi.

Muslims often do not send their children, especially girls to secular schools in India and then complain that Muslim literacy is lower. Muslims howl that they have no leadership. This is a curious complaint. Muslim leaders are known to have gone to Pakistan after 1947. Are the Muslims of India complaining that their leaders have gone to Pakistan? Is this a strange way for Indian Muslims to say "We do not acknowledge leaders in India because they are not Muslim. But (boo hoo ) we have no leaders - after they all went to Pakistan."

Come on. Wake up my Muslim countrymen and come out of your stupor. You have to join. Not remain separate. Those that went their separate way went to Pakistan and Pakistan is doing quite well isn't it? And yes, if anyone is sad that Pakistan (or BangladDesh) is not doing too well - it certainly isn't India's fault.

We have plenty of leaders in india and it is ONLY if you seek Muslim leaders alone that you have to complain that there are not enough. The problem is not with India. The problem lies with YOU dear Indian Muslims as long as you feel that you cannot accept non Muslims as leaders. And sorry to rub it in - you just need to look at Pakistan to see what your Muslim leaders left India and did.

And fools like Kawaja and Khalidi, who are Islamists in liberal garb need to be told in no uncertain terms that they are part of the problem and have no role in the solution.

[sanjaykumar]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Taru ... 742608.cms


High Muslim culture in Ladakh. Disgusting. Shame on you India.

[G Subramaniam]

When muslims want to kill a kafir, they kill the kafir in the nearest slum, who often is a Dalit. Muslims dont check the caste of the kafir before knifing him

Here Mayawati has arrested a muslim thug who murdered a BSP leader
Whereas under Mulayam, this thug was terrorising Allahabad

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/feb/01atiq.htm

Atiq Ahmed, a Lok Sabha member from Phoolpur in Allahabad, who was evading arrest for the past six months in the murder case of a legislator in Uttar Pradesh was arrested by the police in Delhi.

Ahmed, an expelled Samajwadi Party member of Parliament, was arrested by special cell of Delhi police on Thursday evening from a apartment in Preetampura in west Delhi, a senior police official said on Friday.

He was on the run after his name cropped up in the sensational murder case of Raju Pal, a Bahujan Samaj Party MLA in UP. He carries a reward of Rs 20,000.

The Uttar Pradesh police has secured a non-bailable warrant against him in connection with the Pal murder case.

Ahmed had alleged that there

[derkonig]

What is this? some type of South Indian revenge

Not at all. In fact I was the originator - maybe late 1990s on BRF. IIRC and it came from the report that Benazir Bhutto is said to have remarked about her own education. She said that she was taught in school that West Pakistanis are tall, fair and eat wheat while East Pakistani Bengalis are short dark and eat rice. I connected this up with a comment I saw on a Paku unmentionable forum that spoke of thin Indian soldiers with skinny arms.

shiv saar,
since i yam SDRE onlee, bliss to clarify what is this new trend of adding further epithets to SDRE re: "shivering in dhoti/narrow places"?

[surinder]

x-post from the India-China thread:

Tarun Vijay on Ladakhi Buddhist concerns about Chinese and muslim aggression

Scary.

SBajwa has been crying hoarse trying to remind people that if in EVERY interaction muzlims have behaved this way, why would you expect them to behave differently now. Can we not learn from history and see that this is the way it was ALWAYS been?

[surinder]

Elections in india have to be won seat by seat and if you plot the muslim % in a seat on the x-axis and effectiveness of the muslim vote bank on the Y axis, the plot will look like a double humped camel

Ascending the first hump , 0-15%
etc etc < snip >

...
The idea is not to reject the information as wrong, but to ask about the methods and data that have been used to arrive at such a conclusion and the dissmisive arrogance against drawing a graph. When the poster cannot even produce a graph to support his opinions when he starts off by speaking of x and y axis etc, (as if he knows how to plot or read a graph) and gives no data - the material must necessarily be put in the "could be trash/could be true" tray until proved one way or other.
...
If the post is intended to create Hindu unity by means of scaremongering - I give it 3 on 10.

Shiv:

I think you are being harsh on G. Subramanian. Please do not be offended. Almost all posters post stuff with no evidence (including yours truly). It is after all a forum, not a research journal. In fact, G. Subramanian has said something new. If anything, he has presented more proof and evidence to back it up than almost all of us. His posts are, if anything, more full of evidence and substance than the majority of posters.

If you are responding to some other infractin of G. Subramanian, then I am not aware. But if you are reacting purely to this series of posts, then I think he has a refreshing new and solid thing to say. I am not if it is his own original ideas, or he got from somewhere. These ideas have a potential to be studied more and converted to scholarly work.

Surinder

PS: By the way, his description of the theory in terms of "plot this on x-axis and this on y-axis etc." are standard engineers/physics lingo. It is a common practice to talk like this.

[ShauryaT]

x-post from the India-China thread:

Tarun Vijay on Ladakhi Buddhist concerns about Chinese and muslim aggression

Scary.

SBajwa has been crying hoarse trying to remind people that if in EVERY interaction muzlims have behaved this way, why would you expect them to behave differently now. Can we not learn from history and see that this is the way it was ALWAYS been?

Muslims are not hard wired to Isalmic ideology. Their behavior will change, when you can influence/control/change or replace their operating system.

In India, the Hindus and the state have an opportunity to affect the Isalmic operating system and bring about a desirable change, both for us and themselves.

[vsudhir]

Shaurya,

Muslims are not hard wired to Isalmic ideology. Their behavior will change, when you can influence/control/change or replace their operating system.

I want to believe you. But I'd like to know I believe something not because I want to but because it is real. Can you pls backup your assertions with any evidence - either in history or in current affairs?

IMO, its more a question of time horizons.

In the short term, yes, muzlims may have shown accomodativeness etc because they've small in numbers and in confidence in places. But how can you be sure the same holds even when muslims attain numerical preponderance in local areas (from ghettos to towns to districts)? I can show examples to the contrary - that muslim behavior reverts to its original operating system the moment they smell blood.

Ask yourself, have the muslims ever accepted any change in the fundamental nature or teachings of izlam? Is such even structurally possible after the lastest prophet laid down the absolute word of the one true G_d for all time to come? If islam is indeed 're-formed', would it still remain islam? If muslims accept other faiths to be legitimate, and other allegiences (nation, culture, homeland etc) as preceding the ummah, would they remain true 'muslims'?

I don't claim to know the answers, am just questioning the assertions you so confidently seem to make.

In India, the Hindus and the state have an opportunity to affect the Isalmic operating system and bring about a desirable change, both for us and themselves.

I believe this is true. If muslims can't get away with some activity in the name of islam, that activity tends to stop. For instance, the koranic injunction to slay the infidels and take their property because alla sanctions it. Hasn't happened in Jammu but it has in Kashmir. What does that suggest? In Jammu the muslims couldn't get away with murder and loot, perhaps thats why? Just asking is all.

And Godhra and Gujrat are a very potent and powerful example of what muscular Hinduism (or kaffirism) can do to dull the islamist appetite for getting its own way. And as long as Modi can, constitutionally (and hence Dharmically) keep the islamist menace at bay, we're good. The way forward seems to suggest itself. Pls feel free to dispute and debate.

JMTs etc.

[farazhussain]

In India, the Hindus and the state have an opportunity to affect the Isalmic operating system and bring about a desirable change, both for us and themselves.

Thanks for the last comment. I think that is very true and is already happening IMO.

I think in general, many posters are focusing only on the negatives. That is good and necessary of course, since its important to be always aware of the dangers, especially given the history.

However, there must be some space provided for positive change. I am sure that is happening in many places.

And I would agree with many posters here, that one major problems Indian Muslims face is self-imposed isolation and separation. That is very dangerous and is still a reality. It must never happen in the area of education(primary, secondary).

I am not in favor of separate schools at all (there should be no ghettos and "Muslim dominated" areas), but since that won't change overnight all Muslims must go through the GoI approved/State education system, eventually moving toward completely integrated schools.

This I think will make a difference. In my opinion, it already has. Since '47, those Muslims who have gone through the State system, in constant interaction with non-Muslims are better prepared and its best for all.

[svinayak]

Shaurya,

Muslims are not hard wired to Isalmic ideology. Their behavior will change, when you can influence/control/change or replace their operating system.

I want to believe you. But I'd like to know I believe something not because I want to but because it is real. Can you pls backup your assertions with any evidence - either in history or in current affairs?

IMO, its more a question of time horizons.

In the short term, yes, muzlims may have shown accomodativeness etc because they've small in numbers and in confidence in places.

It is not just time but the presence of nearby Islamic radical state of Pakistan and Bangladesh is going to change things. The reason for those countries by the mere presence should tell us something. There is a purpose of those states. It is not to bring about the change as ShauryaT has put it in the sub continent. This is the deep strategic implication.

[Sriram]

derkonig,

shivering - are the golden words of Fired Martial Ayub Khan. 1 Muslim :10 Hindus (this has Koranic basis), hitting Hindus at the right time and at the right place etc.

dark places - Pakistani Education Page 98

Part of the TISP News/Discussions first page links.

[svinayak]

derkonig,

shivering - are the golden words of Fired Martial Ayub Khan. 1 Muslim :10 Hindus (this has Koranic basis), hitting Hindus at the right time and at the right place etc.

dark places - Pakistani Education Page 98

Part of the TISP News/Discussions first page links.

Thanks for th link.
I was searching for this link.
Is it in the first post of the thread

[Sriram]

acharya garu, Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - 28 Jan 2008, first page, search for sdpi.

[prakashtirupati]

Terror camps, Pak flags in Karnataka jungles

Terrorist training camps may be closer to home than the distant mountains in Pakistan.
This chilling evidence came to light during the interrogation of three Islamist radicals arrested recently — Riyazuddin Nasir alias Mohammed Ghouse, Asadullah Abu Bakar and Mohammed Asif.
The investigators have unearthed a thick forest area bordering Dharwad and Uttara Kannada districts of Karnataka, which was used to train terrorists in the use of firearms
Ghouse and his accomplice Abu Bakar frequently visited Kalghatgi along with Asif, a MBBS student. Here they met about 20 young radicals who were being taught the use of small arms and double barrel guns.

[Prem]

Shaurya,

Muslims are not hard wired to Isalmic ideology. Their behavior will change, when you can influence/control/change or replace their operating system.

I don't claim to know the answers, am just questioning the assertions you so confidently seem to make.

In India, the Hindus and the state have an opportunity to affect the Isalmic operating system and bring about a desirable change, both for us and themselves.

JMTs etc.

We are still stuck with temporary solutions . Bajwa is right. Expecting permanent change in O/s , elimination of Islamic Virus in human operating system is expeting too much. Dharma followers cannot stop GOI acting against Dharma how can they bring the power of state to fight Adharma.Dharma practitioners have been on the receiving end since P-secularism took hold major governing institutions.
We cannot change them but change ourself first and claim our due rights and then work to reinforce and strengthen the civilizational ethos.

[Sumeet]

Quoting Faraz from previous version of this thread:

Maybe they will. They should be asked for their opinion on that matter. The GoI has at the highest level taken note of that issue and has taken it up with the Malaysian Govt. (if I'm correct) and this was also covered in the Indian media - many newspapers and also NDTV.

Its understood that since the Government of India is comprised mainly Hindus, it will automatically do what is best to protects Hindus worldwide. No Indian Muslim organization need explicitly tell the Indian Govt. to do that.

The part of the statement I have bolded for you is something you need to re look at.

Just because Islam pervades your social-economic-political world view and is so deeply ingrained in your psyche you tend to look at things from religious perspective.

Many individuals in govt of india may well be hindu but that doesn't mean they will automatically look for interests of hindus worldwide. You need to understand that there is no concept of a hindu ummah as is there in islam. People/states can think independent of each other and do as they feel like. Hinduism doesn't place any such collectivist obligation on its followers. Its very individualistic system.

GoI doesn't need an explicit request to protect Indian Muslims either. The constitution of this country makes it obligatory on the govt. to make sure that its taken care of on account of them being INDIAN. Thats it. I repeat it doesn't matter if they are hindus or muslims or anyone else.

The help will only be extended to INDIANs and People of INDIAN ORIGIN. These can be hindus or muslims or sikhs or someone else.

Examples:

1) Hindus in malayasia.

2) Muslims in case of haneef in Australia and some IMs who were troubled at schipol airport in Amsterdam in 05 or 06.

3) Sikhs in case of France.

In all the above cases help was given because of INDIANESS of these people and not because our leaders happen to practice religion same as them.

What did GoI did to help bali Hindus who were targeted by some islamist terrorist moron ?

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/06/ ... 83939.html


GoI didn't even protect kashmiri hindus in their own backyard against islamist terrorist, what to talk about protecting hindus worldwide.

So stop looking at things from that angle. Still better stop asking govt. to mend their foreign policy because it doesn't fits in well with muslim vision of an Islamic ummah.

There is no need for GoI to care about NON-INDIAN muslims at the expense of our national interests. And nation will not be happy about any activity to push the govt. to act in that direction especially if the motivation behind that is some religious obligation.

Let me very frankly state that as long as you try to practice socio-economic-political aspects of Islam in addition to purely religious/spiritual ones, you will find your Indianess compromised in view of other non muslim Indians although you may become the perfect muslim.

[shiv]

I think you are being harsh on G. Subramanian. Please do not be offended. Almost all posters post stuff with no evidence (including yours truly). It is after all a forum, not a research journal. In fact, G. Subramanian has said something new. If anything, he has presented more proof and evidence to back it up than almost all of us. His posts are, if anything, more full of evidence and substance than the majority of posters.

The harshness is deliberate. For any information to become useful in the long term it has to stand up to standard criticism.

This is particularly true for the type of information that Subramaniam posts. His information is now being seen on BR. Do you know that he was mysteriously banned?

There is opposition to what he posts. If he is posting the truth he has to be able to defend it against vigorous and more than standard criticism. If he slips up - he is going to get chewed up and his remains spat out. I think he understands the reason for my criticism. He is not new to me nor I to him.

Apart from that I believe that while the forum is good for a bit of onanism and timepass, real seriousness can come only from not accepting anything without questioning, but without flaming either. That is the only thing that will raise the standard of debate.

[G Subramaniam]

http://www.andhracafe.com/index.php?m=show&id=31199

HYDERABAD : The civil supplies minister, K. Venkata Krishna Reddy, was literally driven out of the old city by workers of the Majlis Ittehadul Muslimeen on Wednesday and was arrogantly snubbed by its leaders. The shaken minister was left apologising to the Owaisis.
Krishna Reddy’s embarrassing experience made it evident that the MIM’s writ runs in the old city and the ruling party can do nothing about it. The minister had reached the old city to conduct surprise checks on fair price shops.

However, as soon as he stepped into Talabkatta along with the legal meteorology controller, Tejdeep Kaur, other officials and mediapersons, he was surrounded by fair price shop dealers and local MIM workers. The MIM workers obstructed the convoy and started pushing the minister back, raising slogans against him. They told him that he could not visit the locality without prior permission from the local legislator, Akbaruddin Owaisi.

Though Krishna Reddy tried to explain the reason for his visit, the mob was not willing to listen and asked him to leave the place. The minister then called up Owaisi. It was evident that the MLA blasted him over the phone since all that the minister could say in reply was: “yes..., sorry..., sorry....â€

[G Subramaniam]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Nation_Theory

In Quaid-i-Azam's Presidential Address delivered at Lahore, on March 22-23, 1940, he explained:

“ It is extremely difficult to appreciate why our Hindu friends fail to understand the real nature of Islam and Hinduism. They are not religions in the strict sense of the word, but are, in fact, different and distinct social orders, and it is a dream that the Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality, and this misconception of one Indian nation has troubles and will lead India to destruction if we fail to revise our notions in time. The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, litterateurs. They neither intermarry nor interdine together and, indeed, they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspect on life and of life are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Mussalmans derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap. To yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state.

[ShauryaT]

Shaurya,

Muslims are not hard wired to Isalmic ideology. Their behavior will change, when you can influence/control/change or replace their operating system.

[quoteI want to believe you. But I'd like to know I believe something not because I want to but because it is real. Can you pls backup your assertions with any evidence - either in history or in current affairs?

If you think of Islamic ideology similar to other totalitarian ideologies - like communism then, it is easy to see how and through what means and effort can this scourge be virtually eliminated.

However, if you insist that no Islam is different because of this adherence to God et al, then you have to ask the question, who, in the past, has tried to change Islamic ideology through force of pressure, approaching anything close to the pressures and opposition, that was put up against communism and communist states.

My readings suggest that this type of ideologically underpinned warfare that Communism faced, has never been faced by Islam. Forces in the West and India have fought violent wars and have been successful for some time but never really attacked its ideological under pinnings, on a sustained basis. It is one of the key reasons, the Hindu Kingdoms were not able to stop the onslaught of Islamic forces. (although not the only one).

When you combine all these multiple forces of politics, law, economics, the forces of the state, psychological, philosophy - including the raw brute power of the majority to affect a solution, which serve the interests of all the state's subjects (for which Dharma can be our guide), the current Republic of India is in a unique position.

India, enjoys this unique opportunity not available almost anywhere else to affect this change. I am not alone in believing this. My inspirations for this type of a solution come from the writings of Sri Aurobindo Gosh, who actually did not focus a lot on Islam and Islamism. His focus was on the life spirit of India. To focus on that spirit and make it the soul of India. His view was Islam is a side story.

I did not understand and did not agree with that view, initially. But, the more I learnt about Hinduism, the more I understood, Sri Aurobindo's views.

So, in light of Sri Aurobindo's views, Islamism is a side story. The real battle is in India regaining her spiritual purpose. Once this battle is decisively won the solutions to Islamism would automatically come from a spiritually guided Dharmic framework. In that, let us understand, what is Dharmic about Islam and if it is largely adharmic then India has nothing to learn from this creed.

When our nation's leaders are more confident of the cultural genius of India and are able to restart the evolution of Dharma in a social context, then the muslims and all citizens of India - will have no choice but to play by the rules of a Dharmic social book.

Right now, we are far away from that reality. We are largely following a dhimmified and macuaylized framework. Job number one, is the change this framework, so that minds can open up.

Ask yourself, have the muslims ever accepted any change in the fundamental nature or teachings of izlam? Is such even structurally possible after the lastest prophet laid down the absolute word of the one true G_d for all time to come?

Do not worry about reforming Islam. Focus on one thing, the way Arjun was asked to focus on the Dharmic Karma to wage war against Adharma.

Our job is to ensure that Dharma can flourish so that truth and harmony and righteousness can flourish. Compromises with Dharmic ways, do not achieve that.

At the end of the day, I can give you many examples of how many battles were fought by all sections of Hindu society to fight against the Islamic forces – the reason, why Hinduism exists at all. There are examples galore when our gods and kings of yore rose and fought in the name of Dharma to protect Dharma against asuric forces.

But, all we need is an almost child like belief in the glory of Dharma. Though, Dharma will not exist, if you do not protect it. You can keep Lord Ram in your heart or go by the guidance of Sri Krishna’s Geeta or other works of Vedanta. Personally, to me, it is my faith in the spiritual creed of our heritage.

Towards that, I do not expect any mass revolution or some mass awakening among Indians or Muslims. Just do your Karma and work towards your objective and do not doubt the mission.

In India, the Hindus and the state have an opportunity to affect the Isalmic operating system and bring about a desirable change, both for us and themselves.

I believe this is true. If muslims can't get away with some activity in the name of islam, that activity tends to stop. ….

And Godhra and Gujrat are a very potent and powerful example

Godhra – was a weak and localized reaction to an issue that needs a solution, at a completely different scale.

What was the impact of Godhra across India? The answer is usually silence.

We need pro-active movements, in that category, is the Ram Janmabhoomi movement. In the sense that it was not a violent reaction to an immediate event.

Godhra was a reaction like a chicken without a head. The last time the Hindus reacted violently at such a massive scale violently, the result was the partition of the land. Some folks from Punjab tout this as a victory but quickly forget that 60% of the Punjab is in “enemyâ€

[G Subramaniam]

Most are definitely non-Dalit

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/imwat/ch5.htm

Table
Showing Some Muslim Low Castes of U.P.22

Caste Composition of Muslim converts
Caste - % of Total muslim population

Julaha = 14.7%
Faqir = 12.9%
Dhunia = 5.4%
Teli - 3.4%
Nai - 3.3%
Darzi - 2.3%

Qasab - 2.2%

Dhobi - 1.5%

Manihar = 1.4%

[ShauryaT]

One place to test this is the entire border districts around Bangladesh from South Paraganas, into Assam, Meghalaya and Tripura. Does this theory hold there as most of the districts there will exceed 15% muslim population?

In Tripura and West Bengal this is somewhat diluted by CPM vote rigging

However in 2004 election in Chandernagar, WB, 40% muslim, BJP candidate got 40% of the vote ( and lost )
This is near the second inflection point
.......
Lower Assam is near the second inflection point

In the 2004 national elections the BJP drew a blank in West Bengal, and Mamta was the lone winner from the Trinamool congress standing from South Calcutta.

In Assam, BJP got 2 out of 14. In Marigaon and Nagaon. Both of these do not border Bangladesh. Both are smack in the middle and have the whole state of Meghalaya as a buffer from the Bangladesh border. Their muslim population however are probably above 40%.

In Meghalaya, BJP again drew a blank

In Tripura, BJP drew a blank.

I am not disputing a consolidation of Hindu votes as a reaction to population demographies. But, it should be acknowledged upfront that it is only one factor in the overall electoral process.

The theory of 15-40% (as specific numbers), needs more legs to stand on, in my view.

[niran]

Most are definitely non-Dalit

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/imwat/ch5.htm

Table
Showing Some Muslim Low Castes of U.P.22

Caste Composition of Muslim converts
Caste - % of Total muslim population

Julaha = 14.7%
Faqir = 12.9%
Dhunia = 5.4%
Teli - 3.4%
Nai - 3.3%
Darzi - 2.3%

Qasab - 2.2%

Dhobi - 1.5%

Manihar = 1.4%

Imo the figures a bit dodgy.
Julaha are nearly 100% muzelim. I for my self never heard
or seen or meet a Hindu Julaha. Same applies to Dhunia.

Teli usually uses Gupta as their Surname. I am yet to see a Muzelim Gupta.

Dhobi. These Muzelim Dhobi are losing their ranks. Due to the fact
most Hindus in UP who can afford a Dhobi will not allow a muzelim
Dhobi in their household. Few of the Muzelim can afford a Dhobi in UP
the rest you can figure your self.
Qasab- never heard of this. Does this mean "Kasai" Bucther, if yes,
then again rarely you will find a Hindu, Kasai.

as for Manihars, ain't these people Muzelim with Hindu sounding names
form Sindh ?

[Sumeet]

Spot on!!

The problem is Islam.

So this mean there is nothing called islamism seperate from islam but its islam only.

If we really want to speak dharma and the truth, the problem is Islam. Islam needs to be modified to live with others or else.

Which option you want to use for modifying Islam:

1) Nulling the influence on general people [muslims], islamic institutions & organizations of verses of Quran that preach hatred/physical jihad by spreading awareness amongst muslims and non muslims in the world using non violent methods.

or


2) Nulling that influence by following above method and additionally, also editing these verses out of Quran forever.

Or else ........ what ?

Non complying Muslims would have to be separated from rest of us and left to live in a land where they find like minded people.

One need not be anti-Muslim. Most Muslims are good. Islam in its pure state is a problem. It survives and propagates by threats and bullying. Criticizing Islam means death. What is the difference between that and the thoughts of any murderous two-bit dictator of which the world has seen many?

Well one big difference is that it is thought of God and not Hitler. Now you can argue that this God is like Hitler. And maybe you are right. But here is the problem, that God is God of not just those violent thugs who literally follow 7th century principles but also of hundreds of other muslims who you categorized as good people. Some humans in this world need God or a similar concept to live their lives by. You have many options to choose from. Allah is one of them. And Allah is their[good muslims] choice.

You can't do much to reform Islam w/o insulting their Allah, their Muhammad. How will that go down with those good people ? We already know how will it go with those violent thugs.

In my experience I have noticed you can criticize OBL, taliban, islamic govt. etc... but you cannot do the same to Allah, Quran & Muhammad in front of them.

[farazhussain]

Sumeet:

Still better stop asking govt. to mend their foreign policy because it doesn't fits in well with muslim vision of an Islamic ummah.

I didn't suggest any such thing.

There is no need for GoI to care about NON-INDIAN muslims at the expense of our national interests.

Right. And I didn't say they should and don't expect the GoI to do that.

And nation will not be happy about any activity to push the govt. to act in that direction especially if the motivation behind that is some religious obligation.

Right, I agree. Noted.

Let me very frankly state that as long as you try to practice socio-economic-political aspects of Islam in addition to purely religious/spiritual ones, you will find your Indianess compromised in view of other non muslim Indians although you may become the perfect muslim.

I think Indian Muslims should go out of our way to understand what the Hindu majority think of us and expects of us. And we must ensure we don't anger or cause affront to them. This Muslims should have done even 100 years back, but they did the exact opposite. Anyway...

Also, while, IMO, Indian Muslims must go all out to meet the concerns of our compatriots, I am convinced that there are some who we can never satisfy, no matter what we do, because their problem is not with Muslims, but with Islam itself.

[farazhussain]

The part of the statement I have bolded for you is something you need to re look at.

Just because Islam pervades your social-economic-political world view and is so deeply ingrained in your psyche you tend to look at things from religious perspective.

Many individuals in govt of india may well be hindu but that doesn't mean they will automatically look for interests of hindus worldwide. You need to understand that there is no concept of a hindu ummah as is there in islam. People/states can think independent of each other and do as they feel like. Hinduism doesn't place any such collectivist obligation on its followers. Its very individualistic system.

GoI doesn't need an explicit request to protect Indian Muslims either. The constitution of this country makes it obligatory on the govt. to make sure that its taken care of on account of them being INDIAN. Thats it. I repeat it doesn't matter if they are hindus or muslims or anyone else.

I get the gist of what you're trying to convey. Here's what I wrote before:

Its understood that since the Government of India is comprised mainly Hindus, it will automatically do what is best to protects Hindus worldwide.

I take your point and now let me modify what I wrote before.

The basic question you raised was if the IUML will speak on the Malaysian Hindus' problems.

My opinion is that the Indian Government or the national political parties, which are of course mainly Hindu, are in a better position to speak up for the concerns which the Malaysian Hindraf have. They can do this much better than some random Muslim organization/party like the IUML. Hindraf leaders even came to Tamil Nadu and explained their case to many politicians there. And Karunanidhi himself talked about this as did the Prime Minister of India. And when this has been taken up by the GoI at the highest level, I don't think the IUML has any role to play in this.

You have clarified to me that the GoI will only take up issue on behalf of Indian and PIOs. That point is well taken.

[Mahendra]

Also, while, IMO, Indian Muslims must go all out to meet the concerns of our compatriots, I am convinced that there are some who we can never satisfy, no matter what we do, because their problem is not with Muslims, but with Islam itself

The general feeling is that Indian Muslims do not go all out to meet the concerns of the majority community. On the contrary the general feeling is that the the Indian Muslims demand and get special treatment (this is reinforced by the musings of the so called leaders and protectors of muslim rights ). True, there are people whose basic grouse is Islam itself but these people would turn out to be insignificant in the long run if the Majority hindus feel that there is a genuine attempt from the Indian Muslims to accomodate hindu concerns. The moot point is how far is the indian muslim willing to go to accomodate hindu concerns, say for example will the common Indian muslim say in one voice that it is okay to sing "vande mataram"

[Adux]

Sumeet:

Still better stop asking govt. to mend their foreign policy because it doesn't fits in well with muslim vision of an Islamic ummah.

I didn't suggest any such thing.

There is no need for GoI to care about NON-INDIAN muslims at the expense of our national interests.

Right. And I didn't say they should and don't expect the GoI to do that.

And nation will not be happy about any activity to push the govt. to act in that direction especially if the motivation behind that is some religious obligation.

Right, I agree. Noted.

Let me very frankly state that as long as you try to practice socio-economic-political aspects of Islam in addition to purely religious/spiritual ones, you will find your Indianess compromised in view of other non muslim Indians although you may become the perfect muslim.

I think Indian Muslims should go out of our way to understand what the Hindu majority think of us and expects of us. And we must ensure we don't anger or cause affront to them. This Muslims should have done even 100 years back, but they did the exact opposite. Anyway...

Also, while, IMO, Indian Muslims must go all out to meet the concerns of our compatriots, I am convinced that there are some who we can never satisfy, no matter what we do, because their problem is not with Muslims, but with Islam itself.

Follow the Indian consitutition in its secular, democratic methodology, everyone will do fine.Nobody has a problem with religious islam, but there is bone of contention from all religion's about the political islam and socio-economic islam. Since it is affect in one way or the other, on the lives of rest of Indians. You dont see, much ado anywhere on how Malaysian Hindu's are treated by Indian Hindus nor do you use Christian Indians shouting for what is happening to their christain brother's in Nigeria. It is absolutely unacceptable. Nationalism, Boundries of nations exists. You compermise that, Your Indianess will questioned.

For your last part, There are such people in all societies. Dont bother about them.
Equality at heart and in actions, thats all Indian costitution demands,and thats what matters. keep religion at everyone's homes.It should have nothing to do with politics.

PS: I am very happy to see a Indian Muslim here, Welcome. You will break many a stereo-types. Hang around and contribute.


Adu

[Adux]

sing "vande mataram"

Have you seen the full text of vande mataram. What if person sings Jana Gana with all his heart, but has a certain problem with Vande Mataram.It is a national song, not the national anthem. Heck who cares about singing Vande Mataram, if i would ratherbe happy to see a Indian Muslim singing the national anthem and the Kadam Kadam badaye Ja.

singin Vande Mataram is not how you show you are an Indian nor is it the requiste for muslims coming to mainstream. Abolishing Special Sharia courts for muslims, giving more rights to muslim women, following the Indian consitution, making the burqa see the end of a fire pit.
Vande Mataram has Hindu roots, we are not singing anything for Allah or Jesus here are we.


VANDE MATARAM

“Vande maataraM
sujalaaM suphalaaM malayaja shiitalaaM
SasyashyaamalaaM maataram ||

Shubhrajyotsnaa pulakitayaaminiiM
pullakusumita drumadala shobhiniiM
suhaasiniiM sumadhura bhaashhiNiiM
sukhadaaM varadaaM maataraM ||

Koti koti kantha kalakalaninaada karaale
koti koti bhujai.rdhR^itakharakaravaale
abalaa keno maa eto bale
bahubaladhaariNiiM namaami taariNiiM
ripudalavaariNiiM maataraM ||

Tumi vidyaa tumi dharma
tumi hR^idi tumi marma
tvaM hi praaNaaH shariire

Baahute tumi maa shakti
hR^idaye tumi maa bhakti
tomaara i pratimaa gaDi
mandire mandire ||

TvaM hi durgaa dashapraharaNadhaariNii
kamalaa kamaladala vihaariNii
vaaNii vidyaadaayinii namaami tvaaM

Namaami kamalaaM amalaaM atulaaM
SujalaaM suphalaaM maataraM ||

ShyaamalaaM saralaaM susmitaaM bhuushhitaaM
DharaNiiM bharaNiiM maataraM |â€

[Adux]

I get the gist of what you're trying to convey. Here's what I wrote before:
Its understood that since the Government of India is comprised mainly Hindus, it will automatically do what is best to protects Hindus worldwide.

Absolutely wrong here, If it need the Indian Consitution was made in such a way, the collections of Hindu Temples will go to the people running them like in mosque's and churches, rather than into the government coffers. Indian government has done much more than anyother accomdate the minorities. Too much at times in my opinion, cant say the same about the society though.


The basic question you raised was if the IUML will speak on the Malaysian Hindus' problems.

My opinion is that the Indian Government or the national political parties, which are of course mainly Hindu, are in a better position to speak up for the concerns which the Malaysian Hindraf have. They can do this much better than some random Muslim organization/party like the IUML. Hindraf leaders even came to Tamil Nadu and explained their case to many politicians there. And Karunanidhi himself talked about this as did the Prime Minister of India. And when this has been taken up by the GoI at the highest level, I don't think the IUML has any role to play in this.

You have clarified to me that the GoI will only take up issue on behalf of Indian and PIOs. That point is well taken.

Just to let you know, Karunanidhi was told to shut the f**k up by GOI, regarding the Malayasian Hindu's as they are not Indian citizens. And rightfully so. So did most of Indian political party, including the so called Hindu nationalist parties. Will the Muslim parties shut up aboutPalestine and Iraq and what not. And one more thing, Karunandhi tried to help Malayasian Hindu's not because they are Hindu's but rather since they were all TAMILS. My own favorite AK Antony, our DefMin went to Malaysia last month to sign defence deals. Most Hindu's dont have concept of the Ummah working for them, or anyother by which they will go around helping all Hindu's in the world. Mohammed Haneef was helped by the GOI in Australia because he is a Indian citizen, I find your line of thought in this matter utterly deplorable, you imply that all Hindu's have the concept of wellness of Hindu's above all else.

[Shwetank]

Imo the figures a bit dodgy...

I think you have it the other way round. He is saying the % these castes make up of the total muslim pop. in an area, not % of these castes that are muslim. It might very well be that 100% of a certain community is muslim, but what does that have to do with what fraction that community is of all muslims?

[Virupaksha]

Now also present what is the full version of national anthem "jana gana mana"?

It was not written for the sake of mother India but for honouring King George to India, you are alright with that song. What was done to this song? Those portions which were for the british were deleted and the rest made into our national anthem. Remember one thing, this song has NO history behind it and it inspired exactly ZERO indians during our freedom struggle.

Now let us see the other song, the national song. It inspired COUNTLESS indians during the freedom struggle, it was a song written against the british asking people to fight for their mother land. It has an undisputed rich history behind it. All the stanzas which deal exclusively with the hindus were removed and then the remaining song was made the national song, note which has the equal status of national anthem.

In your thinking of secularism, you forget that India is made up of more than 80% hindus and I have seen many sikhs worshipping lakshmi and durga, with this much support behind it, obviously for a song to inspire the whole of india, it will have to take from the imagery of the culture rooted in the country and vandemateram was the song which was able to do it.

Now with all the "hindu" stanzas removed from it, what exactly is the problem?