ATV and K15 missile - News & Discussion

[Singha]

surely tech from A1 has been reused but its not a repainted A1. because A1 is 15mts tall and 12 tons in weight.

more efforts would have been made for denser propellant with the form factor limits of submerged launch.

I am just waiting for the day when a big new AD-1 leaps off the pad and
knocks down a retired IRS satellite from polar orbit.

and ofcourse the A3-SL which will be a blue-letter day and a state holiday
on BR with flags at full-mast and people tripping over mithai boxes.

[uddu]

I got this.

Length ~6.56m and width ~0.5m.

[Austin]

Sandeep Unninathan puts the length at 11 m. So till DRDO puts out official release we will never know for sure.

I think the same.
A 2 stage 0.7m (or for that sake a 1m) dia missile is only viable at ~10meter not at 7m.

Sandeep is accurate with his data , so we can take this as 0.7 m dia and 11 m length , which means the ATV dia will be 11.5 ~ 12 m

What will be the range if we take the above parameter with a lighter warhead ?

[Arun_S]

So reverse-engineering from following available data:

Liftoff mass: 7,000 Kg
Booster end altitude: 5 Km
Motor case: Margaing

The rocket configuration results in:
Booster stage: 1,750 Kg (assuming MF:0.82)
Second stage: 3,350 Kg (assuming MF:0.85)

This yields:
1,300 Kg throw weight to 700Km
1,000 Kg throw weight to 900Km
700 Kg throw weight to 1,240Km
500 Kg throw weight to 1,600Km

[k prasad]

Arun saar,

Thanks for that... trying it out on ROCKSIM now. will donate the 50 cents later.

What are the masses and lengths for the individual stages that you used? also, shouldn't there be some mass fraction compensation for the booster stage?

I assumed a first stage burn time of 25 sec, which gave cutoff at 4.7 km altitude.

[Arun_S]

Arun saar,

What are the masses and lengths for the individual stages that you used? also, shouldn't there be some mass fraction compensation for the booster stage?

I thought I listed it here:

The rocket configuration results in:
Booster stage: 1,750 Kg (assuming MF:0.82)
Second stage: 3,350 Kg (assuming MF:0.85)

For above the booster length would be ~3m and second stage ~6m.

-----------------
Edited the length estimate by looking at some publicly available DRDO data.

[Arun_S]

Arun saar,

Thanks for that... trying it out on ROCKSIM now. will donate the 50 cents later.

What are the masses and lengths for the individual stages that you used? also, shouldn't there be some mass fraction compensation for the booster stage?

I assumed a first stage burn time of 25 sec, which gave cutoff at 4.7 km altitude.

Cool, I can send you full speed license file in case you do not have it already. The ROCKSIM configuration for my estimate of Sagarika is as follows:

Code: Select all

Payload = 700.0 Kg, Number of Stages = 2, Simulation Time Granularity  = 0.100 Second
Launch Direction = 90 degrees-North,  Launch Latitude = 22.00 degrees

Segment-Name ISP(Vac) ISP(SL) Stage-Mass  Fuel-Fract  Burn-Time Thrust-Direction  Diameter    Length     ThrustOverdrive OverdrivePeriod
SolidBooster     265.0   237.0,   01,750.0     0.820     027.0 Sec   70.0 Degree  0.75 Meter 06.00 Meter 40.00 %        30.00 %  
Stage2           275.0   220.0,   03,350.0     0.850     043.0 Sec   44.0 Degree  0.75 Meter 04.00 Meter 12.00 %        10.00 %  

Oh BTW the length field is inconsequential and for information only. All other fields are used.

[Austin]

A 1600 Km SLBM with a single 300 Kt TN/Boosted weapon , is a good deal for our first attempt to have a credible undersea deterrents.

[Arun_S]

In the throw weight I will assign ~200kg for non-warhead weight (batteries, avionics, velocity correction pkg, structure etc). So 500Kg throw weight will allow ~300Kg warhead, that is suitable for 50kT boosted weapon but not 150kt Boosted,

The 250kT TN weighs about 250kg but it must be tested to FUSION Yield of 60kT (total yield of >120kT) to be of any consequence to credible deterrence.

[Austin]

Arun sorry to put this question here , as far as credibility of TN goes , the regime of NDA and the architect of Pokhran 2 said it works.

Did they lie to the nation ? Since both (ABV & RC ) said it works , or could RC have been forced to accept a political correct statement of P-II as far as TN goes. I believe RC is still OSD at PMO looking at Weponisation of Indian Nuclear deterence.

[Arun_S]

Arun sorry to put this question here , as far as credibility of TN goes , the regime of NDA and the architect of Pokhran 2 said it works.

Did they lie to the nation ? Since both (ABV & RC ) said it works , or could RC have been forced to accept a political correct statement of P-II as far as TN goes. I believe RC is still OSD at PMO looking at Weponisation of Indian Nuclear deterence.

Is off topic but let me reply once. Yes RC said "Aswathama Mara Gaya" to ABV, based on which ABV issued the famous first declaration "Indian now has big H bomb", but then RC raced to correctly tell him which was the real Ashwathama (aka a sugar coated lie of success of Shakti-1 vs design yield, I.e. 48kT yield was significant under-performance vs expected yield). So ABV's next official statement was "India has capability to make big H-bomb". So ABV covered for BARC & RC's gaff (some people will call that an outright lie), and given expected international uproar at the moment left it at that. The so called corrected new TN weapon design was ready for test in 2002, but that is when chacha stepped in and gave India the lollipop of NSSP that will lead to recognized NWS status, and I think a promis of Indian prominence in IOR and putting Pakiss-tani jihadi Army tiger back in the cage. The lollipop was a soother to buy time and hope that they can negotiate a far better switch and bait deal with a changed political setup that could arise after ABV's current term. Lo and behold NDA snatched defeat from the jaws of assured victory riding atop "shining India". Funny but true.

I believe RC is still OSD at PMO looking at Weponisation of Indian Nuclear deterence.

Isn't it a sad commentary on Indian strategic setup? The unrepentant arrogant liar is in OSD of PMO, when his butt should have been whipped one leather shoe for each Indian citizen he repeatedly lied, and compromised their security and wellbeing of their future generations!

Reminds me of a couplet from "Shri Ram Charit Manas":

Sia Ram kahat hain Kali-yug main aaisaa din aayega,
Hansa chunayga daana mukh main, aur Kaowwa moti khayega".

How true!!

[Austin]

Thanks Arun , Sums it up . Now it seems the political elite is happy with what we have ( after all for them a bum is a bum , how does it matter if its H or not ) and they are all happy to forgo this option forever by signing the Indo-US treaty.

Can some one send Sandeep U some mithai from Bengal Sweet/Nathus store in ND and will foot the bill?

ramana will do the needful

[sunilUpa]

Pontoon was positioned inside the sea, about 8 km from Visakhapatnam coastline and the missile was fired from 50 m deep,’ said a source at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-Sea. The 700 km range missile, formerly known as Sagarika, was test fired twice but had reported ‘partial’ success as trajectory deviation was noticed during its flight.
‘But Tuesday’s test was a success as a rectified version was tested,’ the source said, adding that the final evaluations from the warships stationed in the sea are awaited.

link

Meanwhile...

pakistani fishing fleet is worried

[Dilbu]

AOA.. I am late to react but let me say a loud JAI HIND!

I love you guys at DRDO and all other guys who toiled to make this a success.

[Aditya G]

Sorry it was a false lead. Those are actually Brahmos missile components.

Confirmed at Singapore Air Show.

Check out the caption in the included photo....

Hey thats from Keltec site and Arun Ji had identified it as K-15

[Philip]

The intriguing "K-15",hints at a 1500km range for the 1X3 silos aboard the ATV.That the missile is an interim one is clear from the size of the ATV's silo,which will in all probability later house an ICBM of at least 5000km range.The missile (ICBM) will be developed in stealth,if substantial progress has not already been made,ready to be popped in when the need arises.For the moment,we're not getting Uncle Sam alarmed,but you can be very sure that the US does not take too kindly to the progress that we're making,as long as our strategic deterrent can only reach as far as China! Arun's figures for the range/paylaod stats apear to be the most accurate from available info.I can't recollect who mentioned similarities between Agni-1 and the K-15,but it does bring up the q whether a land based version of K-15 is also on the cards,or that Agni-1 is its land based counterpart.This being the 6th test,the missile's development is clearly timed to be ready for the ATV when she arrives.

From the ballistic missile developments in the last few years,it now appears as if we can design,develop and type of ballistic missile according to our needs.A long range Tomahawk class cruise missile should be next in line in perfecting,which will be available to all three services,for the IN also launched from torpedo tubes.Once the hypersonic version of Brahmos also appears,we will have a very lethal cocktail of tactical and strategic missiles available for the services

[Avid]

Arun_S -- As we try and work out the dimensions/range about what is feasible - can we add another constraint based on the speculation that 3 x K-15 will be replaced by 1 Agni-III? Does this yield tighter estimates about what might be K-15?

I am trying to put a few clues together:

1. Sometime back DRDO stating that they are working on reducing the weight of the missiles and that this would yield more compact missiles with lower weight and/or dimensions possibly accompanied with greater range. (the mention of A-3+). My inclination is that these techs have already found their way into K-15

2. Mention that - "we have tested this missile under different names" - possibly evolving design of K-15 Wondering if the missile or its components has been tested in Dhanush form.

3. The idea of 3 x K-15 replaced by 1 finless A-III (could this be the A--III+ they keep referring to?)

Just idling thoughts about how DRDO has in the past cued into new developments with series of seemingly unrelated announcements.

[jamwal]

Can we place K-15 in leased Akula??

[cbelwal]

There is something interesting in this video of a Trident launch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkT3I6RDPkw

As the missile ejects out of water using gas propulsion, a small rocket motor ignites, taking the missile to what seems an altitude of around 50m, and then at 0.06 seconds of the video this small motor is jettisioned, and the first stage motor of the Trident kicks in.

Same action is visible here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSn6_p8D ... re=related

Could it be possible a smaller rocket is used to take the system to a safe altitude before the main motor starts ?

Ramana, Iwas wondering if the gas generator can actually push a missile up to 5km. I have seen the trident launch, Iguesss the solid fuel booster kicks in just a few meters above the sea level. So I assumed that the gas booster pushe the missile up theorugh the canister/pontoon/sub up to the surface and then the missile motor kicks in. The way the report goes is that some system takes the missile through the water upto aheight of 5km and then the solid fuel motor starts...

[SaiK]

Can we place K-15 in leased Akula??

Placing shouldn't be a problem, but firing would need "aroorizing" the event.

pakistani fishing fleet is worried

[k prasad]

Sorry it was a false lead. Those are actually Brahmos missile components.

Confirmed at Singapore Air Show.

Hey thats from Keltec site and Arun Ji had identified it as K-15

No... its possible that those may still be K-15 components, since the guy at the Stall did mention that keltec would continue working and mfring products for the other projects like ISRO's vikas engine and the other missile subsystems.

[gopal.suri]

Sagarika missile test-fired successfully

India on Tuesday proved that it had the capability to launch missiles from underwater by test-firing successfully the Sagarika missile from a pontoon off the coast of Visakhapatnam. The pontoon simulated the conditions of a submarine.

Shortly after noon, the missile’s booster ignited and Sagarika rose from the pontoon. Then in a spectacular display of firepower, it cleaved out of the waters of the Bay of Bengal and tore into the atmosphere as the air-booster erupted into life. It impacted the sea over 700 km away.‘A proving trial’

“It is through. There was no problem,â€

[Gerard]

No... its possible that those may still be K-15 components

The Keltec caption said solid booster for surface to surface missile.
Looks rather large to be a Brahmos component?

[Arun_S]

Sorry it was a false lead. Those are actually Brahmos missile components.

Confirmed at Singapore Air Show.

No... its possible that those may still be K-15 components, since the guy at the Stall did mention that keltec would continue working and mfring products for the other projects like ISRO's vikas engine and the other missile subsystems.

I an assure you that motor is NOT part of Bramos, and in fact it is the Sagarika's second stage (the main motor).

[k prasad]

With regards to the discussions in the previous page about the 3 K-15s or 1 Agni-3SL in the 2.3 m diameter launch tube that DRDO has developed, I'm posting the picture that I'd put up in the Missile thread.

Post link

So assuming that the VLS tubes on the ATV are about 2m wide (to fit the A3), but it should also fit the smaller missiles like, say, the K-15, which should be around 70 cm... is it possible have a canisterized launch tube with a group of 3-4 missiles in each tube. That will give flexibility to customize the missile load.

This is a pic I made with the calculation. Note that the diameter of fit is assumed to be perfect. Which means that the missile with be of a somewhat smaller diameter.

missiles/tube (n)...diameter ratio (r/R)....packing efficiency

1..............................1.........................100%
2.............................0.5.........................50%
3.............................0.464...................64.6%
4.............................0.414...................68.6%
5.............................0.37.....................68.5%
7.............................0.333...................77.8%

Assuming the 2.3 m overall diameter of the launch tube, the internal diameter of 2 m for the A-3SL allows for a 3 missile canister cell with the missiles being 70 cm diameter.

[SaiK]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 817645.cms

..amid some indications that the test was "not fully successful".

..did not meet all the pre-flight parameters laid down for the test conducted

..The first test of Agni-III missile in July 2006, incidentally, had flopped miserably. Though the second test in April 2007 was successful, it will take at least three to four tests more for this China-specific missile to be fully-ready

Top three DDM negatives quotes of the day.. will x post in the ddm thread as well.

[Arun_S]

The intriguing "K-15",hints at a 1500km range for the 1X3 silos aboard the ATV.That the missile is an interim one is clear from the size of the ATV's silo,which will in all probability later house an ICBM of at least 5000km range.The missile (ICBM) will be developed in stealth,if substantial progress has not already been made,ready to be popped in when the need arises.For the moment,we're not getting Uncle Sam alarmed,but you can be very sure that the US does not take too kindly to the progress that we're making,as long as our strategic deterrent can only reach as far as China! Arun's figures for the range/paylaod stats apear to be the most accurate from available info.I can't recollect who mentioned similarities between Agni-1 and the K-15,but it does bring up the q whether a land based version of K-15 is also on the cards,or that Agni-1 is its land based counterpart.This being the 6th test,the missile's development is clearly timed to be ready for the ATV when she arrives.

Philip saar: the 3 missile in a big ICBM container is not an Indian innovation, neither is it a stop gap (SRDE) measure. That is the way westerm subs have been reconfigured in recent times. Carrying a mix of missile in high density configuration, giving the sub a range of weapons to tend to the meek and/or mighty. You only have to look at various news fragments of chacha and chachee.

This mix allows sub to carry few ICBM for the gorilla class friend, together with smaller CM or BM in trio for persuasive civil negotiation with the unrelenting business partners.

[Arun_S]

I am trying to put a few clues together:

1. Sometime back DRDO stating that they are working on reducing the weight of the missiles and that this would yield more compact missiles with lower weight and/or dimensions possibly accompanied with greater range. (the mention of A-3+). My inclination is that these techs have already found their way into K-15

IMHO No. Two different systems. Do all fingers of hand have to be of equal in length per egalitarian democratic norm?

A-3+ is Agni-3A,B,C configuration on BR Agni page. The compact missile version is Agni-3C.

2. Mention that - "we have tested this missile under different names" - possibly evolving design of K-15 Wondering if the missile or its components has been tested in Dhanush form.

If you recall SDRE news report of liquid and solid fuelled Prithvi tests of yonder years?

3. The idea of 3 x K-15 replaced by 1 finless A-III (could this be the A--III+ they keep referring to?)

A-3SL. Look at its length and configuration on BR missile section.

[k prasad]

I am trying to put a few clues together:

1. Sometime back DRDO stating that they are working on reducing the weight of the missiles and that this would yield more compact missiles with lower weight and/or dimensions possibly accompanied with greater range. (the mention of A-3+). My inclination is that these techs have already found their way into K-15

IMHO No. Two different systems. Do all fingers of hand have to be of equal in length per egalitarian democratic norm?

A-3+ is Agni-3A,B,C configuration on BR Agni page. The compact missile version is Agni-3C.

IIRC, this was the composite casing... any updates on whats the status Arunji?

[Gerard]

Reuters
India missile test to start arms race: Pakistan

India, already capable of launches from land and air, tested the new missile on Tuesday from a surfaced submarine -- a step closer to firing from under the sea and matching countries such as the United States, Russia, France and China.

[anishns]

Taqleef is a bitch!

[bala]

I am just waiting for the day when a big new AD-1 leaps off the pad and knocks down a retired IRS satellite from polar orbit.

and ofcourse the A3-SL which will be a blue-letter day and a state holiday
on BR with flags at full-mast and people tripping over mithai boxes.

InshanAllah!

I am waiting for the day for the 3 Indian Nuclear Powered Aircraft carriers, one plying the IOR saying hi to the Aussies, the other minding the South China Seas with full-fledged exercises, and the last one making courtesy calls at the Mediterrean ports and occasionally allowing visitors on the American Atlantic shores.

[Avid]

Reuters
India missile test to start arms race: Pakistan

India, already capable of launches from land and air, tested the new missile on Tuesday from a surfaced submarine -- a step closer to firing from under the sea and matching countries such as the United States, Russia, France and China.

The PN is angling for more money in a country where the army and AF have all the goodies and nukes. let's see a not so capable jihadi navy running around persian gulf with nukes - yep world would be a lot safer!

[sunilUpa]

Sagarika’s significance

Hindu Editorial.

The successful test of the Sagarika missile marks a public declaration of the progress India has made towards establishing its own submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) capability. Nuclear warheads delivered by aircraft, land-based ballistic missiles, and SLBMs together form the deadly ‘triad’ considered necessary for ‘stable nuclear deterrence,’ whatever that means in this day and age. Carried onboard by specially designed nuclear-powered submarines that can lurk undetected in the depths of the ocean for months at a time, the SLBM promises a devastating riposte should a nuclear first-strike by an enemy destroy or severely cripple the country’s air- and land-based nuclear weapon systems. The political implications of the latest test are a matter of serious concern, with Pakistan registering its protest against what it sees as a new phase in a South Asian arms race. Technologically, launching ballistic missiles from a submarine moving underwater requires a series of complex steps. Powerful gas generator systems must be activated to eject each missile from the vertical tube in which it is carried onboard the submarine. The missile’s rocket motor must fire as soon as it breaks the ocean surface and the onboard guidance system must quickly orient the missile along the correct launch trajectory. India has proven solid propulsion technology within the civilian space programme as well as the missile programme run by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The February 26 test was carried out from a submerged pontoon that performed the role of a submarine’s missile tube. The success of this test, as also of previous ones — DRDO officials have now disclosed — indicate mastery of the intricacies of launching a ballistic missile underwater.

For SLBM capability, the ballistic missile is only half the story. In the 1970s, India embarked on the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project to build a nuclear-powered submarine. For years, a key problem was developing a nuclear reactor compact enough to fit inside a submarine. Using highly enriched uranium produced at the Rare Materials Project near Mysore, the miniature reactor became fully operational only in December 2004. Media reports speak of a plan to build by 2015 a fleet of three nuclear submarines, each carrying 12 nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles. It is instructive, however, to remember that although China launched its first Xia-class nuclear submarine capable of carrying ballistic missiles in 1981, a missile was successfully launched from it only seven years later. The political implications aside, Indian defence scientists and naval personnel have several technological hurdles to overcome before they achieve their dream of SLBM capability.

[Gerard]

It is instructive, however, to remember that although China launched its first Xia-class nuclear submarine capable of carrying ballistic missiles in 1981, a missile was successfully launched from it only seven years later.

link

China’s entire fleet of approximately 55 general-purpose submarines conducted a total of six patrols during 2007, slightly better than the two patrols conducted in 2006 and zero in 2005.

Twenty-five years after it launched its first ballistic missiles submarine, Xia (Type 092), China has yet to conduct its first deterrent patrol. The new information confirms that neither the Xia, nor the two new Jin-class (Type 094) ballistic missile submarines - the first of which was launched in 2004 - have ever conducted a deterrent patrol.

The single-warhead Julang-1 sea-launched ballistic missile developed for the Xia has been test launched twice

JL-1 SUBMARINE-LAUNCHED BALLISTIC MISSILE

The first successful underwater launch of the JL-1 missile from the PLA Navy’s sole Soviet-made Type 6631 (NATO codename: Golf class) diesel-electric missile submarine (pennant number 200) took place on 12 October 1982, followed by another four test launches between 8 March and 28 April 1984. The first three test launches of the missile from the PLA Navy’s first and only Type 092 nuclear submarine in late 1985 all failed. The failure caused a major setback in the development programme. After some modification in the missile and the test systems, the first successful launch of the JL-1 missile from the Type 092 SSBN took place on 15 September 1987. This was followed by another successful test launch 12 days later, showing the missile development was successful.

However, its limited range (2,150km) requires the submarine to leave Chinese waters to conduct a strike, which would significantly increase the possibility of being detected and intercepted by enemy anti-submarine forces.

[hnair]

Reuters
India missile test to start arms race: Pakistan

India, already capable of launches from land and air, tested the new missile on Tuesday from a surfaced submarine -- a step closer to firing from under the sea and matching countries such as the United States, Russia, France and China.

These fellas have been threatening this arms race like for ever. And their bosom chums in Brookings, Monterrey, SD etc rather lazily repeat this nonsense in "South Asian analysis" pieces. Soon Indian DDM, to appear cool, pick that up and repeat it.

This whole "arms race" promise, it is like we have almost finished the entire athletic season, with lots of race wins and the Pakis are still loitering in the locker room, groin scratching and glaring at our medals.

[Gerard]

I'm wondering where the "surfaced submarine" bit comes from. Serious takleef all around...

[NRao]

I'm wondering where the "surfaced submarine" bit comes from. Serious takleef all around...

Grape vine: The Pakistanis approached China for a sub launched missile and that is all China promised them.

___________________________________________________________

When it comes to nuclear arms Pakistan is an extension of China. So, their "arms race" talk is no more than a China centric means to shackle India.

[Baljeet]

while we are at this subject, I want to make a prediction....
2015 Nov 15th War breaks out between Indian & Pak over water resrouces. Pakis have learned from their lizard all weather friend the art of local border war, new generation of Indians are not taking the bait, they retialiate from land, air and sea. Taliban has full control of souther afghanistan. Indian retialiation leaves devastated landscape above lahore to afghanistan, Indian Forces capture entire POK and Aksai chin. Taliban smells blood moves in with jihadi takes over what is left of pakistan. Indian Forces cut pakistan in two halves along rahim yaar khan landscape. Taliban and India make a deal, India won't provide any support to Ameri-khan, Taliban will not launch any jihad against India. Truce is a temporary peace till both sides regroup for final fight in next 10 years. India closes its border with Islamic Republic of Taliban. Shoot at site orders are issues, no enquiry, no jurisprudence on what happens in NW Border area.
War ends on Jan 15th, 2016. There is a tacit understanding between Hindu India, ME Crescent; Your fight is in other direction not towards east.

[Willy]

Was the test completely successful or not? There are reports floating around that the test wasnt completely successful and none of the previous tests were completely successful either.