South India River Water Issues/Disputes

[shaardula]

but this is all about growth, sustenance and progress. how does india grow, without KA AND TN growing? alternately, can India grow, if either KA OR TN OR anyother state is left behind? similarly, what is india's culture if not for the myriad little variations to the meta theme of indic ideas?

very simple folk understand this and have prophesied this long ago much before the dawn of independence: bcoz there is KA, TN, MH etc there is India. Its not the other way round.

if TN were upper riprarian and KA were lower riprarian, folks both in real and virtual worlds will be making the exact the same arguments with polarities correspondingly changed. that is their dharma. i will talk about mysoreans. when tsunami happened the same people collected resources to help tamil folks, and yet from feb 2007 the very same people were protesting in the middle of the city for water. for 90% people, its about bottomline, it dont matter who says water how. it has got nothing to do with tamil kannada etc.

in bangalore, these cosmopolitan top down ideas have skewed the picture so much that it has blinded people from reality. so they have left the playing field to extreme elements. in mysore, ordinary people take up the cause and fringe elements have no scope. the problem is people pay attention only when something happens in bangalore which is prolly home to the most woolly eyed and apathetic people in the whole country. lot of people sit in bangalore and bask in this cosmopolitan fog and use it to nurture their own ultra uber parochial desires and put all the burden and cost of cosmopolitanism, in terms of resources and culture, on locals. atleast the hooligans are out there and upfront about their ideas. how do you deal with these smooth talkers?

[mayurav]

Don't give Bala's answer that it does not matter what you think etc.

Excuse me Mayurav, I don't need to answer any of your questions, and let us not make this a personal issue. I am not an expert on water sharing and neither are you. Jurys have their data and they have experts on the subject. Every time the Cauvery Tribunal came up with a verdict neither side quite liked it citing all kinds of reasons. This is the nature of beast. We don't have all the data points about what sharing is all about, just picking a number from a table is not the whole picture, i am sure there were other criteria besides "bias". These committees are constituted by the center with people who have nothing to do with either state in the dispute. They are "experts" better than you or me.

Well, not being an expert has not stopped one from expressing opinions about fairness of nuclear deal, about Tibet issue etc. But anyways, it is your personal preference. I will not ask you again.

[vina]

Yawn.. Drove down to Chennai on Friday morning from Bangalore. All this Kaveri business meant that we were made to take a detour just before Hosur and made to enter Karnataka via the TVS Motor plant , because the Highway was blocked for some reason.. TVS Motor plant is bang on the border and I guess the wall of that plant reaches right up to Karnataka ! . I guess the bulk of the work force and the markets are right on both sides of the border.

The detour delayed things by 45 mins or so, but still made good time and was home in Chennai in 5:30 hrs or so . Chennai is hot as hell and so muggy and uncomfortable. Bangalore was of course as pleasant and cool as always, especially since it was raining there the whole of last week.

Frankly, with it being the wettest March in 113 years in Karnataka and it having rained extensively in TN as well , including flooding in many parts, this entire Kaveri /Hognennekal thing at this time is a massive hoax , with this particular one driven more by the upcoming elections in Karnataka and it's dynamics. BJP and Karunanidhi tried fishing in troubled waters this time on both sides.. Thankfully , karunandhi got bitch slapped by the central govt and Kangress managed to tone down it's state unit in Karnataka and everything must have fizzled out by now..

Life goes on.. Yawn.. Hating Madras as always..Miserable weather. Can someone here tell me a good excuse to give to pack off the wife and kid to the in-laws and avoid going there as well ? .. Would have loved to hang around in Bangalore and have some peace and quiet with the kid and SHQ sent off..

[SSridhar]

. . . but atleast basic statistics must be relevant no? how did they come up with an award dated 2007 based on 1991 census figures?

Shaardula, are you referring to the drinking water requirements of Bangalore ? If so, the Final Award is not made on 1991 census alone. The States were requested by the Tribunal to project their populations until 2011 and the decennial growth rate was applied over the 1991 census which was used as a baseline. In 1990, KA had indicated the then existing requirements as 14.52 tmcft for drinking water, though it demanded an eventual allocation of 30 tmcft. The final computation was therefore made based on the 1991 drinking water requirements and the projected decennial growth upto 2011.

The claims made by the States were fantastic. The total demand was 1200 tmcft while even at 50% dependability, the availability in Cauvery is only 740 tmcft and at the more desirable 75%, it is only 671 tmcft. Obviously, the Tribunal cannot meet every demand as the sum total of all such demands far exceeds the supply.

Again, it was KA that has claimed before the Tribunal that roughly one-third (36% to be precise) of the City of Bangalore only fell within the basin and the remaining two-thirds were out of it. See also the basin map here. The Tribunal's computations are available in the Final report. They aren't arbitrary.

[SSridhar]

I agree that the trick is defining equitable. Let us see how equitable the award is.

Going with TN's numbers itself KA contributes 390 units and gets to use only 270. Whereas TN contributes 220 units and gets to use 420 units. Even if excess of KL (25 units) is allowed to go to TN the total available excluding KL is 390+220+25 = 635. Even if it was a 50-50 division KA should have got 320 units and TN 320 units.

So this means KA should release around 100 units annually. This is what I deem fair. KA is not saying it will release 0. This would have been more equitable.

Mayurav, basin-contribution and usage are just two of the many parameters taken into account by modern water sharing doctrine. I have read the whole final award of the Tribunal. I believe that they have explained the reason behind every conclusion they arrived at and to me they sound fair. The States were represented by eminent legal brains, Fali Nariman, Parasaran, Shanti Bhushan & Kapil Sibal were some of the senior counsel that I know of. There could be others there too presenting the case. On top of that, there were two senior hydrographic assessors from the Central Government. The States presented their witnesses like MS Swaminathan, Ramaswamy Iyer to name a few. They filed affidavits and were cross examined in depth. I am sure that simple oversight is not possible in the final award.

KA is not saying it will release 0 and use all the water from its basin. Forcing it to release unfair amount of 180 units which is close to 50% of what it contributes is plain UNFAIR.

What do you think?

It is rarely that one is satisfied by arbitration. There are several contentions of TN that the Tribunal rejected, the most major of which was its claim on 'prescriptive use'. This resulted in removing the cap on irrigation acreage placed by the Interim Award on KA. On the whole, the Tribunal has given a fair award considering all the facts presented before it.

But saar, what is the Indian basin's contribution to the river? Please tell. We got three eastern rivers plus small part of western ones.

Again, basin contribution is just one parameter. The paramount factor there was to preserve the vast existing irrigation system in West Punjab and Sind. At the same time, the World Bank also considered the need to develop irrigation in East Punjab and parts of Rajasthan as in the changed circumstances of the Partition, India had a natural anxiety to develop its own irrigation. In order to accommodate that, new barrages, headworks and canals had to be built in TSP and WB also asked India to contribute, which India did.

[SSridhar]

but this is all about growth, sustenance and progress. how does india grow, without KA AND TN growing? alternately, can India grow, if either KA OR TN OR anyother state is left behind? similarly, what is india's culture if not for the myriad little variations to the meta theme of indic ideas?

very simple folk understand this and have prophesied this long ago much before the dawn of independence: bcoz there is KA, TN, MH etc there is India. Its not the other way round.

if TN were upper riprarian and KA were lower riprarian, folks both in real and virtual worlds will be making the exact the same arguments with polarities correspondingly changed. that is their dharma. i will talk about mysoreans. when tsunami happened the same people collected resources to help tamil folks, and yet from feb 2007 the very same people were protesting in the middle of the city for water. for 90% people, its about bottomline, it dont matter who says water how. it has got nothing to do with tamil kannada etc.

Shaardula, excellent post.

[joshvajohn]

I agree with the previous quote as well.
In both states a few linguistic fundamentalists tend to hijack the people in both states by doing small political stunts and I think the national parties take action on those concern trying to play around using simple issues and blowing into a big controversies.

[Kalantak]

More nationalists like Modi are needed so that inter-state river issues are solved amicably

A river that unites

In Rajasthan, the BJP had made a promise in the last assembly election campaign to bring Narmada to the water-starved desert districts of Barmer and Jalore. This pledge was redeemed on March 28, amidst much fanfare, religious ceremony, prayers and thousands of worshipful, moist eyes watching the whole episode in mirthful disbelief.

The BJP has not made a song and dance about this hugely successful demonstration of its development model. But its progress, drinking water and irrigation facility extended to thousands of draught-prone villages of Gujarat has already rewritten the history there. And over 4.5 million people expected to benefit now, in Rajasthan, will repeat the same in the coming days.

The Narmada waters could have reached Rajasthan decades earlier if the Congress government there was willing to pay its share of funds for the project. It was left to Vasundhara Raje to accomplish this.

The project would not have been completed even now but for the messianic zeal of the Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, who confronted and overcame all oppositions, from judiciary, Congress central leaders, Communists and the likes of Medha Patkar of the Narmada Bachao Andolan.

The Narmada main canal is an engineering feat of sorts as it traverses through 612 concrete structures, including those built to negotiate rivers like the Mahi, Sabarmati, Rupen, Khari, Saraswati and Banas littering its path. Built at a cost of Rs. 4,800 crore, it has piled 2,038 lakh cubic metres of earthwork, 403 lakh sq m of concrete lining and 34 lakh cubic metres of concrete and has a carrying capacity of 20,621 cubic ft per second as it enters north Gujarat but tapers to 3,354 cubic ft per second when it touches the outer brim of Rajasthan.

Releasing the water at a grand function at Tharad, Banaskanda, Modi said, “We are doing no favours to our neighbours, just repaying a centuries old debt of honour.â€

[hnair]

Here let me put this post of Dileep here.

Dileep, this is just so that it does not choke up the Food thread. Some omanakuttan-come-lately might saunter into the food thread, pick up your bait offering to me and starts tugging at it furiously So delete if you can, that one there. I will write a reply by Tuesday, while I move on to some other stuff. Just so that the mercury dips a little and you have time to re-read my past and last response on this subject.

Before that, let me say that this: dam issue is something that I was involved in a rather personal way and I have some views on this. The pokes that I deliver are purely to keep, the emotions down, particularly in a public forum.

OT, but I got to do it here for continuity:

a huge water wall is coming down my way" story, have we?

I know you are going to come at me with your urumi whirring, but this is EXACTLY what ticks me off. You, your people, and the politicos who matters sit in the safety deep south, and don't give a rats arse about the safety, livelihood and lives of 35 million people. What kind of arrogance is that? Can you blame me now for bunching you with Tamils, who does the same thing?

That is, not giving a darn about the lives of people!

Have you thought before you posted the above rant, that the danger of the dam is real, or will the century old masonry dam will stay simple because it is built by your great king? Do you really think that the issue is made up? Else what gave you the arrogance to make fun of the life or death concern of the people? Or as I would tend to think, it is the thekkan-ness? Truth is, YOU don't give a damn. The rulers up south don't give a damn. If they did, the great Achummaan would have got his "cats" camping at Thekkady, building a new dam below the old one.

Want to talk about it, come to the river water thread.

And in the mean time, don't get impatient, eat your own bait (as happened with the unpeeled-gingelly bait) and unravel.

[hnair]

Here let me put this post of Dileep here.

Dileep, this is just so that it does not choke up the Food thread. Some omanakuttan-come-lately might saunter into the food thread, pick up your bait offering to me and starts tugging at it furiously So delete if you can, that one there. I will write a reply by Tuesday, while I move on to some other stuff. Just so that the mercury dips a little and you have time to re-read my past and last response on this subject.

Before that, let me say that this: dam issue is something that I was involved in a rather personal way and I have some views on this. The pokes that I deliver are purely to keep, the emotions down, particularly in a public forum.

OT, but I got to do it here for continuity:

a huge water wall is coming down my way" story, have we?

I know you are going to come at me with your urumi whirring, but this is EXACTLY what ticks me off. You, your people, and the politicos who matters sit in the safety deep south, and don't give a rats arse about the safety, livelihood and lives of 35 million people. What kind of arrogance is that? Can you blame me now for bunching you with Tamils, who does the same thing?

That is, not giving a darn about the lives of people!

Have you thought before you posted the above rant, that the danger of the dam is real, or will the century old masonry dam will stay simple because it is built by your great king? Do you really think that the issue is made up? Else what gave you the arrogance to make fun of the life or death concern of the people? Or as I would tend to think, it is the thekkan-ness? Truth is, YOU don't give a damn. The rulers up south don't give a damn. If they did, the great Achummaan would have got his "cats" camping at Thekkady, building a new dam below the old one.

Want to talk about it, come to the river water thread.

And in the mean time, don't get impatient and start eating your own bait (as happened with the unpeeled-gingelly bait) resulting in any more of the unraveling.

[Dileep]

HN, post deleted at F&W as the bait is taken.

I am too old to eat my own bait or to cook in my own juices. I am a meek midlander too. So show what you got.

[Bade]

Wow ! the kalari is ready for a showdown at Cochin Corral Time for some pop corn and drinks. Too bad we do not have any rivers flowing North-south in kerala for more fireworks.

[SwamyG]

That is a big broad brush that Dileep has in his pockets. First he associated TN government with Nazis, now he is condemning the entire Tamilians.

If the dam's safety is an issue, and TN political parties or administration is bent up doing something that is going to endanger the lives of people then one ought to strongly condemn those folks. Not the entire tamilians.

It is simple, if there is a safety concern then it should be looked into first. Period. TN and Kerala should work together. If TN (i.e. government and its bodies) stands in the way to monitor and improve the safety, then it is clearly wrong on its part. Period. It is just adharmic to bat for TN if it does not put the safety of people first.

That does not mean....entire tamilians are worthy of such condemnation.

[Bade]

SwamyG, if I recall correctly a Navy diving team was denied permission by the TN govt to do insitu inspections of the dam. If there was nothing to hide why put such obstacles ?

[Dileep]

Well, not ALL Tams are bad, like not ALL mallus are meek. I happen to know quite a few good Tams myself. And I presume the TN govt is run by non Tams? Yeah right. Karunanidhi is basically Telugu and the fat lady is Kannadiga right?

And those people who blocked the NH47 and NH49 at the border, preventing even ambulances to pass were from MH? Those TPWD people who prevent nay attempt to even LOOK at the damned dam are from punjab?

And when you name a state by its name, it means the entiety that runs it, the one that is responsible for its actions. In case of the Indian states it is the government of the state. So, when I say TN did this, or TN is like that, it means the government of the state of TN.

And yes. I would shout from the top of Aanamudi that TN behaves like the nazis. TN not only wants the water, but don't give a rats ass about the lives of the people from whom they get it.

Where did we see this last? Oh yeah, a guy in Germany wanted all the farmlands, but not the people who live there.

My questions:

1. Why TN object the construction of another dam below the current one at Kerala's expense? Pure H&D onlee. AKA PAKINESS
2. Why TN objects to any investigation into the state of the dam? Because they know there are problems and want to cover up. When did we see it the last time? Oh yeah! in PAKISTAN!
3. Why TN blocks the road at the boarder? Because they can, and don't care about the issue itself. Thank god no one wore a backpack and blew up stuff in Kerala. PRoves that, though having some amount of PAKINESS, TN can't be really compared to PAKLAND.

So, I am not calling TN to be PAKI, but I stand by the NAZI statement.

[KarthikSan]

Where did we see this last? Oh yeah, a guy in Germany wanted all the farmlands, but not the people who live there.

So, I am not calling TN to be PAKI, but I stand by the NAZI statement.

What does that make KL...the nouveau FRENCH? The dam is in your state. If TN does not care about your people then why don't the rulers of KL do something about it? That is typical FRENCH. Surrender at the first sign of trouble. So the SC is full of NAZIS too right because they allowed to increase the height to 142 ft. ?

[Raju]

What does that make KL...the nouveau FRENCH?

'Ancient' France that includes Templars and Normans who used to launch raids on neighbouring territories.

Either you are with us or against us !

[Dileep]

Yes. We might be like the French onlee, lacking the backbone to give the ungli to the neighbours.

Or maybe, the overlords deep south who aren't affected doesn't care. We do have people like Kalari Guru KGCTE Hnair Valiya PaTathalavar who make fun of the concern. With people like that in KL itself, do we really need TN?

OR, as the theory goes, the officers who were supposed to defend the state screwed up, either because of incompetence, or because of bribes. Failed to present the facts to SC, resulting in the verdict.

Does the rocks and 'surki' listen to the SC verdict? Does the water do? Does the hills and the soil that makes them do? If so, why don't the SC order the water to flow east? That will solve the problem forever right?

It is hereby decreed that the water shall flow east henceforth

And presto! the safety concerns of KL and the water concerns of TN gets solved! Zimble onlee.

A judge ordered that Rajan Pillai doesn't need treatment for his liver problem. Unfortunately, he didn't order yamadharma shall not take him, or if he did, shall return him. So, Rajan Pillai is dead onlee.

What is TN's problem? We never denied the water, though the agreement is null and void. We PLEADED with them to build ANOTHER DAM at OUR OWN expense, and their response was the road blockage, and preventing our minister the right to visit the place.

Explain that dear KarthikSan, if you can!

[vina]

What does that make KL...the nouveau FRENCH?

'Ancient' France that includes Templars and Normans who used to launch raids on neighbouring territories.

Either you are with us or against us !

Yawnn.. The Knight Templars and Normans were Teutonic .. But when they became Romanized /Gaullized they became the softy softy Frenchies.. So the Mallu Templars & Normans were originally Tamils ( Remember.. Chera of the Chera /Chola /Pandya were Tamil /Proto Tamil ..) who turned Commified / Jal Jhandafied and became Mallus..

Anyways, me things very honestly that since you guys dont have a decent commercial film industry, the Mallus have been watching too many "Aravindan" type art films with too much conspiracy theories thrown in .. and all that combined with the fertile and verdant mind , the conspiracy theories have run riot..

Bad railways ----> Tamil Conspiracy!
Bad Roads ----> Tamil Conspiracy!
Bad Ports ----> Tamil Conspiracy!
No Ministers ----> Tamil Conspiracy!
No Industries ---> Tamil Conspiracy!
No Yesudas ----> Tamil Conspiracy! (he moved to Madras)
No Shobhana ----> Tamil Conspiracy !
No Asin ----> TAMIL CONSPIRACY
Tsunami ------> TAMIL Conspiracy ( the Sethusamudram)

Idhellam Mudalali varghatthin Kanspiracy akkum ..Arthamiyitta Comrade ?

Kamrade Raju .. Lal Salaam !

[Raju]

'Ancient' France that includes Templars and Normans who used to launch raids on neighbouring territories.

Either you are with us or against us !

Yawnn.. The Knight Templars and Normans were Teutonic ..

Gee .. Is this what passes for history in TN ?

Norman name itself means 'Northerner' who settled on French coast. Knights Templar had its origins in France.

The Chera (exclusive of the other riff-raff) were originally a part of the Maravar tribes who set up the dynasty on the South West. fact

Cholas and Pandis had Maravar in their army but the dynasty was not so. So yes there is a subset of our fighting seed in TN but that's about it. Rest of the meek, we are not concerned about.

Only KL has access to the seed of Antioch and Canaan, who bear true allegiance to the blood of the Templars who fought the crusades. Only KL has the variety and range in martial groups. KL has the range of weapons in it's arsenal from which it can select which one is to be launched first.

1 Templar Kinght ~ 100 Mujahideen
1 Templar Knight ~ 1000 Nazi

[Dileep]

No Asin ----> TAMIL CONSPIRACY

Now THAT I would definitely agree with. Never cared about the beard or the ghostface, but Asin sure is a concern.

Bad railways is DEFINITELY Tam conspiracy. Had been for decades. Bad roads, not so much, but still TR Baaaalu does what he can.

The fat lady claimed that her party want to rule KL as well. I guess it is in the Tam mentality that they consider the peninsula south of the Krishna to be the "Dravida Naadu", rightfully belonging to them. I shiver in my lungi on that thought. There was unkil to save France. Who will save us?

And thank god (and the framer of the constitution) that the states of the union can't have military.

[vina]

Gee .. Is this what passes for history in TN ?

Norman name itself means 'Northerner' who settled on French coast. Knights Templar had its origins in France.

France itself takes it's name from the Franks. . Bretons and Normans gave names to their respective provinces..

The Chera (exclusive of the other riff-raff) were originally a part of the Maravar tribes who set up the dynasty on the South West. fact

Cholas and Pandis had Maravar in their army but the dynasty was not so. So yes there is a subset of our fighting seed in TN but that's about it. Rest of the meek, we are not concerned about.

Maravars are a part of the "People of Three Clans" or Mukkulathor namely Thevar, Maravar and Agamudayar. Check out the the link.. The Cholas, Pandyas etc were from those..

Interestingly one of your's and Dileep's favorite bug bears.. Baaalu is one of those!

[vina]

The fat lady claimed that her party want to rule KL as well. I guess it is in the Tam mentality that they consider the peninsula south of the Krishna to be the "Dravida Naadu", rightfully belonging to them. I shiver in my lungi on that thought. There was unkil to save France. Who will save us?

Revolutionary Leader, Dr Miss J. Jeyalalitha would love to rule the entire world if she could.. Look at some of the popular iconography that appears with her cherubic face nearing election time.. Mary, Mother India, Many Goddesses in the Hindu pantheon.. endless. ..sort of like the Empress Queen Victoria or someone who ruled an empire over the sun never set!

The Mukkulathor (Thevar, Maravar and Agamudayar) are Amma's most committed vote bank (southern TN is traditionally AIADMK stronghold) and with Amma's Own Guardsmen Regiments recruited from her traditional votebanks in Southern TN, serving as the spearhead for any offensive into the the enemy heartland.

Ah.. But dont despair.. Amma shows luuuvvv.. It can be tough luuv if you cross her.. Don't worry. Amma loves all her subjects , including mallus if you guys manage to become her own.

And thank god (and the framer of the constitution) that the states of the union can't have military.

Yup.. Not the least because, you will have Madurai vs Thanjavur , Delhi vs Haryana.. wars and of course not to mention Kochi /Midlands vs Travancore wars with Dileep and HNair squaring off against each other as the chief protagonists.

[Raju]

Ah.. But dont despair.. Amma shows luuuvvv.. It can be tough luuv if you cross her.. Don't worry. Amma loves all her subjects , including mallus if you guys manage to become her's..

thanks but no thanks .. the simple folk of KL do not need her love. it has it's own Ammas to contend with. Might not be as photogenic as TN version, but she loves, hugs, and kisses as well. fair dinkum I say.

Interestingly one of your's and Dileep's favorite bug bears.. Baaalu is one of those!

he is a cheap fraud.
--------------------------

And last on behalf of all those simple mallu folk, except for those shivering in their lungis, who are normal people but turn into suicidal maniacs on the road, I will summarise their gentle feelings thus:

edanja kombante krishnamaniku thoti keti kalikalle . . mone dinesha

translated into English: love your elephants

[Dileep]

I mentioned the army because in CA (and TX I would imagine) you often hear the idea of the Governator declaring war on the Fed, using the national guard. And often my favourite libertarian host used to thank the constitution for preventing the states from raising armies.

During the start last reich of PTDJJ, people said that she will raise a "Jaya Army", declare independence of "Jaya Naadu" and occupy Malluland and Kannadaland (for what else? Water!).

I should admit that much of the bad feeling about TN happens because we simply "hate their guts" to get things done in their favour. The bad feeling becomes hate when they do that at our expense and peril.

TN have a big liaison team at Delhi to move their stuff. We send Faxes, which promptly find way to the waste bin. The TN team will do their homework, present the facts (and lies), wine, dine and bribe the babu, threaten to withdraw political support, in short do everything a corporate body will do to advance their agenda.

Our leaders will ask the clerk to send a fax, and go off to the party meeting (commie) or party group meeting (kaangress).

Good for them, bad for us. We are like this onlee. We don't deserve good roads and rail.

But, now that is a bigg but.

Things change when the lives, property and livelihood of people are in question. You may be smarter, richer, and more powerful than me, but you CAN'T apply your smartness in the peril of the above. Take all the rails and roads you want away from our share. Shame on me. Take my life and livelihood away.

That is SHAME ON YOU!!

[Raju]

TN have a big liaison team at Delhi to move their stuff. We send Faxes, which promptly find way to the waste bin. The TN team will do their homework, present the facts (and lies), wine, dine and bribe the babu, threaten to withdraw political support, in short do everything a corporate body will do to advance their agenda.

TN is over-represented in bureaucracy at centre in form of Tambrahms, SC quota and what not.

It does not help KL cause that M. K. Narayanan types who occupy office are the Palghat-types and don't know which way to swing during best of times and lack a spine in normal times. There was an exception in T. N. Seshan but he again thought the macro-picture .. country above self etc.

Either KL bureacrats are highly moralistic, Internationalist (Krishna Menon) types or they lack spine.

[vina]

TN have a big liaison team at Delhi to move their stuff. We send Faxes, which promptly find way to the waste bin. The TN team will do their homework, present the facts (and lies), wine, dine and bribe the babu, threaten to withdraw political support, in short do everything a corporate body will do to advance their agenda.

TN is over-represented in bureaucracy at centre in form of Tambrahms, SC quota and what not.

It does not help KL cause that M. K. Narayanan types who occupy office are the Palghat-types and don't know which way to swing during best of times and lack a spine in normal times. There was an exception in T. N. Seshan but he again thought the macro-picture .. country above self etc.

Either KL bureacrats are highly moralistic, Internationalist (Krishna Menon) types or they lack spine.

Guys.. Guys.. Hold your horses.. I think you guys are running wild with your imagination of the "TN Lobby" ..

1).. TN Lobby, even if such a thing did exist, is no where as slick, professional and corporate as what Dileep makes it out to be in Dilli.. TN sure is a well governed state, but it surely is nowhere in the league as professional lobbying as in Massa, which is the picture that comes across from your posts.

2) TN Politicians are just that.. Rabble rousing buffoons like anywhere else. Revolutionary Leader , Dr Artiste, Why Go (sure.. why not?), Victory Cant.(I guarantee that if that dude comes anywhere close to power), hundreds of rabble rousing wannabes.. , Miss Fruit Speech or Child Speech , Mr Stalin (who would put the original's purges to shame if given half a chance) , Mr Beautiful Mountain have equivalents everywhere.. It is just that the Kerala Commies and Kangress arent as focused enough. There are pluses and minuses to regional politics and having the power to have national parties by the gonads.

3) Surely, the "lobby" which favors one state at the expense of another is a figment of imagination.. For a long time.. very long time in fact, right upto early 90ss, when you had coalition politics in the center became the norm, TN's leverage was limited.. very limited. TN was no big Kangress voter, and even with the AIADMK-Congress alliance, the TN MPs were toothless and had very limited maneuver room.. exactly like the MPs from Kerala in Commie party and Kangress are limited..

4) Tam Brahm IAS lobby : Now that must be something you have to look back to 60s, 70s and at best 80s.. Because IAS as "Swamy " services was true until that time. Come 70s, the IAS charm was lost on Tam Brahms, and it became IIT and other similar outlets and Massaland. TN's overall contribution in the IAS came down drastically in the 80s and in fact statistics showed that Chandigarh ALONE had more people writing the IAS than the WHOLE of TN !. If you see any Tam Brahm names in the IAS list, there is a very very high probability that the person is from Dilli (like one of my cousins.. who did the St Stephens History --> IAS route) or some place in North India.. Tam Brahm from south. to IAS is extremely rare today..close to zero. The Tam Brahm dominance of the IAS got over in the early 80s at best.. The last I can think of is Subramaian or someone who retired as Cabinet Secretary.. yeah, the same guy whom Mayavati removed as Chief Secretary of UP on the first day of her becoming the CM of UP in her earlier term, just because of his caste..(what would happen if someone did that to a scheduled caste chief secretary because of his caste.. I wonder)

5) This entire.. Muallaiperiyar stuff,. I dont have good info. But the supreme court seemed convinced on the safety and gave it's ok to raise it to 142 ft.. Surely Kerala presented it's case , but the SC didnt find much merit. Maybe that is the reason why this thing could not stand in court on technical grounds and Kerala is using "safety" as a trojan horse for other things.. Don't know.

[Dileep]

This entire.. Muallaiperiyar stuff,. I dont have good info. But the supreme court seemed convinced on the safety and gave it's ok to raise it to 142 ft.. Surely Kerala presented it's case , but the SC didnt find much merit. Maybe that is the reason why this thing could not stand in court on technical grounds and Kerala is using "safety" as a trojan horse for other things.. Don't know.

Vina, use common sense. I know you have it.

The damned dam is 111 years old. Built of rocks and a mixture of jaggery and lime mortar. The design life was 50 years. You REALLY think it is safe?

And KL raises the issue for WHAT? We don't take a DROP OF water from that dam, nor we ask for it. Do we raise the issue so that the grand old man Dr. Artiste will die of high blood pressure? Give me one motive?

Jeez!!

[Raju]

4) Tam Brahm IAS lobby : Now that must be something you have to look back to 60s, 70s and at best 80s..

those people who passed the civil services in 60s and 70s are in senior positions today. The drop in TN representation since 80s will only be shown up in the next decade.

[SwamyG]

SwamyG, if I recall correctly a Navy diving team was denied permission by the TN govt to do insitu inspections of the dam. If there was nothing to hide why put such obstacles ?

If TN government has done something that is not right; then do what ever it takes in a democracy to make TN government accountable. Don't go about brushing all tamilians.

[SwamyG]

Well, not ALL Tams are bad, like not ALL mallus are meek. I happen to know quite a few good Tams myself.

So kind of you to acknowledge that. We tamilians must have done some real poonyams in our previous birth.

And I presume the TN govt is run by non Tams? Yeah right. Karunanidhi is basically Telugu and the fat lady is Kannadiga right?

Irrelevant here, unless you are pulling Telugus and Kannadigas into game.

And those people who blocked the NH47 and NH49 at the border, preventing even ambulances to pass were from MH? Those TPWD people who prevent nay attempt to even LOOK at the damned dam are from punjab?

And hence you generalize for the entire tamil population.

And when you name a state by its name, it means the entiety that runs it, the one that is responsible for its actions. In case of the Indian states it is the government of the state. So, when I say TN did this, or TN is like that, it means the government of the state of TN.

Yes I understand, my point is not that, you clearly used the word Tamils and conveyed a point that tamils do not give a rats arse about the safety & livelihood of 35 million people.

[SwamyG]

TN have a big liaison team at Delhi to move their stuff. We send Faxes, which promptly find way to the waste bin. The TN team will do their homework, present the facts (and lies), wine, dine and bribe the babu, threaten to withdraw political support, in short do everything a corporate body will do to advance their agenda.

Thanks to coalition politics, DMK managed to get 11 ministers (or so) in the Cabinet at the time UPA formed government. And the ministers were loyal to its constituents, they brought benefits to the state. Before that TN was not really on the front burner. Chennai and TN were silent workers not inviting attention or hype.

[Dileep]

SwamyG, I see that you have NOTHING to say about the grave issue, while you complain about the generalization.

That very well shows that how valid that generalization is, doesn't it? You, SwamyG, I presume a Tamilian, falls within that generalized category of the bad Tamils who want the water, but don't care about the people. You are worried that someone complains about it. Image? H&D?

I have nothing more to say.

[Bade]

If TN government has done something that is not right; then do what ever it takes in a democracy to make TN government accountable. Don't go about brushing all tamilians.

We are working hard in infiltrating the TN voter base by mass migration to TN. Coimbatore will be known as Coimbatore, Kerala soon. Then the democratic process will take over. Till then we have to whine onlee or slowly shaheedize the dam.

The other option is when the "wall of water"comes down finally, tear down the 999 year lease agreement between then maharajah and the Madras Presidency on water sharing, and just allow for what flows naturally down the slopes eastward.

[hnair]

Bad railways ----> Tamil Conspiracy!
Bad Roads ----> Tamil Conspiracy!
Bad Ports ----> Tamil Conspiracy!
No Ministers ----> Tamil Conspiracy!
No Industries ---> Tamil Conspiracy!
No Yesudas ----> Tamil Conspiracy! (he moved to Madras)
No Shobhana ----> Tamil Conspiracy !
No Asin ----> TAMIL CONSPIRACY
Tsunami ------> TAMIL Conspiracy ( the Sethusamudram)

Vina, your posts on the markets are awesome, we all learn a lot. But I do not know which sources you get your info about Kerala. Most of them are outdated, seems to originate from personal bitterness and are ridden with pop-cliches. And worse, they disturbingly sound like a communist propagandist's dream come true.

I do not know about West Bengal. But there are millions of people (I repeat, millions) who fought communists all their lives in Kerala. Sometimes they have to undergo medieval brutality and some of us has given back in equal measure. Some of us have evolved and the local left leaders have evolved (except in Malabar, whose omission from your posts, btw is a dead give away that you dont know much at this point). Some of us have prevailed in maintaining the solid 60% votes that is never with the Left. And that shows in the LDF turning more and more centrist and, get this, "communal". All is lost for the people who are resisting the left, when outside world (lead by people like you) believe the propaganda that "a Keralite is 100% commie".

Vina, Raju, who introduced us to the erudite politicsparty.com, can be overcome, I am sure You really need to desist wielding the broadest brush of them all. Shaardula-saar gently pointed out that you are not speaking for anyone or anything in particular and that all of India's problems are neither logical nor has a linear flow to it. Very important advice, that one. And most important of all, unlike the DRDO threads, whatever you say can foul up perceptions of the uninitiated in these states. Particularly about the decent citizens of these three states of India.

Bade, you bought an excellent point that I was planning to bring to the fore to my reply to Dileep: IF the dam buckles and people die in the vicinity, TN can kiss those waters good bye. Forever. That is ONE consensus that exists at this point in Kerala. Including amongst the Tamil origin Keralites living in Kerala. With the recent retail advances in India, the thought is that TN's influence in choking fresh farm produce supply to Kerala can be easily overcome.

Dileep, Dileep, Dileep!! you bait-junkee, can't keep away from any baits can you? (serious request: present YOUR case without jibes. have a discussion instead of baiting).

And Vina, your Thaatha, he is from Trivandrum, if I remember right? But you have mentioned Palaghat too. What is your Palaghat connection?

[KarthikSan]

What is TN's problem? We never denied the water, though the agreement is null and void. We PLEADED with them to build ANOTHER DAM at OUR OWN expense, and their response was the road blockage, and preventing our minister the right to visit the place.

Explain that dear KarthikSan, if you can!

A malayali from Kottayam is the SC Chief Justice. I bet he understands the safety issue clearly. If your politicians/officials are incompetent imbeciles and did not do a good job of presenting their case don't blame TN for that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullaperiy ... ent_status

Current status

Tamil Nadu is the custodian of the dam and its surrounding areas. The Supreme Court of India has allowed for the storage level to be raised to 142 feet. [11] A recent law, promulgated by the Kerala government against increasing the storage level has not been objected [12] to by the Supreme Court[13] of India, which termed it as not unconstitutional.

SC has approved KL's dam safety law. I don't know what are the provisions of the law but I understand that KL can do whatever it needs to protect the safety of its citizens.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/09/09/stories ... 840400.htm


http://www.thehindu.com/2007/01/02/stor ... 060600.htm

Parapet of Mullaperiyar dam damaged

THENI: Unidentified persons damaged the parapet of the Mullaperiyar main dam at Thekkadi in Kerala on Monday.

Tamil Nadu Public Works Department officials on routine inspection found plaster on a six-foot long and one-and-a-half-foot wide section of the wall removed. The debris was found at the site.

"When we brought this to the notice of the Kerala police, who have been guarding the dam round the clock, the latter said they did not know about the incident," said the officials.

"The issue has been brought to the knowledge of the PWD Chief Engineer and the State Government."

The Kerala Government has deputed more than 20 police personnel and ordered them not to allow anyone into the dam area. Permission is given only to PWD officials of Tamil Nadu and Kerala to visit the dam whenever necessary. Tamil Nadu PWD officials believed that it was an attempt to weaken the dam.

Five District Farmers Association secretary K.M. Abbas felt the miscreants might have entered through the Vallakadavu. He appealed to the Union Government to depute Central security personnel to ensure the dam's safety.

You tell me now. Who is trying to damage the dam? TN has no benefits in doing it. Whoever it is in KL is trying to get political mileage out of it. Seems typical of the commies and the Kaangress. May be you should vote for Amma. She'll protect you.

This is my last post on this subject. Dileep is just trying to flame everyone.

[KarthikSan]

One last post:

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1724/17240420.htm

Over to the Supreme Court

After years of inconclusive talks and arguments, the Mullaperiyar dispute will now come up before the Supreme Court for a final settlement.

R. KRISHNAKUMAR
in Thiruvananthapuram

Following the detection of leaks, a Central Water Commission (CWC) team, led by its Chairman Dr. K.C. Thomas, conducted a study of the dam. It "found no danger to the dam", but had, "as a matter of abundant precaution" recommended the lowering of the res ervoir water level to 136 ft (from 142.40 ft at that time), until measures to strengthen the dam were completed in three stages. The team also recommended that the water level be raised in stages to the full reservoir level of 152 ft.

K.C. Thomas is a malayali, ain't he? So the Tamils are conspiring against everyone in the world!!!

[hnair]

One more thing:

I am too old to eat my own bait or to cook in my own juices. I am a meek midlander too. So show what you got.

Wow ! the kalari is ready for a showdown at Cochin Corral. Time for some pop corn and drinks. Too bad we do not have any rivers flowing North-south in kerala for more fireworks. Razz

Yup.. Not the least because, you will have Madurai vs Thanjavur , Delhi vs Haryana.. wars and of course not to mention Kochi /Midlands vs Travancore wars with Dileep and HNair squaring off against each other as the chief protagonists. Very Happy

LOL.....WOW. things never change, whenever there is a whiff of a rumble at the local kavala/junction/circle, everyone rushes in and squats with their lungis hitched up. So let me point out that there is a third ending to any Kalari Angam: the last scenes from Oru Vadakkan Veera Gaadha.

There are only losers in a fratricidal/intra-familial battle. So currently I am a fan of Tsukahara Bokuden's way of fighting and is trying hard to convince some wise old men at that old Hwaijin Bldg, Gangnam-gu district in Seoul that they need to pay more attention to India. Totally bissful pursuits.

So if I can help, even if I am personally attacked, Dileep is not going to get any injuries and I am not batting for anyone but India and its people <wiping away the forming tear at my own righteousness >

[Bade]

From the same link given by karthikSan

n May 1970, in what is now considered in Kerala as a "blunder" committed by its leaders, the two States signed a formal agreement to renew almost in toto the 1886 lease agreement, which had by then become invalid. Subsequently, Kerala also became aware of the increasing use of the Mullaperiyar waters by Tamil Nadu. (By the early 1990s, the total irrigated area in the Periyar-Vaigai basin in Tamil Nadu had been extended by 44,000 acres. This led to a quantum jump in the amount of water required for irri gation, and a worsening of the water scarcity in the four districts of Tamil Nadu.)

The pattern is the same users increase and demand increases...even if the origin of the water source has similar issues to face with in future...the beneficiary of the agreement claims it as its birthright.

Kerala signed the agreement without assessing the possible use it might have in future for the Periyar waters. Thus Tamil Nadu was once again given the legal rights over "all waters" from the Mullaperiyar for its exclusive use. From the mid-1980s, despi te having 44 rivers (which are currently described as "minor rivers"), Kerala began to face extended spells of acute water and power shortages. Kerala had constructed the Idukki hydroelectric project 50 km downstream from the Periyar dam but did not have enough water to utilise its full capacity. Except on rare occasions when there was heavy rainfall in the catchment areas, no water flowed down to Kerala from the Mullaperiyar. Tamil Nadu was virtually utilising "all the waters" from the Mullaperiyar, an d Kerala was forced to make a reassessment of its own age-old belief about the relative abundance of its water resources.

Times have changed hence this rethink. TN has to adjust maadabeku onlee in water usage patterns now that Uncle Jack is no more around.

For every argument raised by Tamil Nadu in support of its claims, there is counter-argument in Kerala that appears equally plausible. Yet, each time the controversy gets embroiled in extraneous issues, two things stand out: One is Kerala's refusal to ack nowledge the genuine need of the farmers in the otherwise drought-prone regions of Tamil Nadu for the waters of the Mullaperiyar; the other is Tamil Nadu's refusal to see that it cannot rely on or continue to expect more and more from the resources of an other State to satisfy its own requirements to the detriment of the other State. A solution perhaps lies in acknowledging the two truths, but neither government can afford the political repercussions of such a confession.

[vina]

[.. TAMIL Conspiracy
Vina, your posts on the markets are awesome, we all learn a lot. But I do not know which sources you get your info about Kerala. Most of them are outdated, seems to originate from personal bitterness and are ridden with pop-cliches. And worse, they disturbingly sound like a communist propagandist's dream come true.

Oh.. I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of the Tamil "Conspiracy' theory that is touted around here for all the ills.. roads, ports , and why even the corns in the feet of old folks in Kerala.

No personal bitterness or hate I assure you.. After all, how can you hate yourself !! Remember, I have mallu roots too.. with constant battles over "puli thanni" and "kerala cooking" in the domestic front over culinary stuff!.. Me No Self Hating fashionable socialite I assure you.

And about the 100% commie part, of course , I know it is not true. Everyone knows it is very balanced and a 2 to 3% swing in votes will sweep the election for either side! ..Kerala aint no West Bengal!.

.. That is ONE consensus that exists at this point in Kerala. Including amongst the Tamil origin Keralites living in Kerala.

..

If they are folks like mine, they are fully paid up Mallus for over 7 generations! .. Other than the malayam accented Tamil (more malayalam than Tamil) they speak at home they are mallus onree!.

And Vina, your Thaatha, he is from Trivandrum, if I remember right? But you have mentioned Palaghat too. What is your Palaghat connection?

I dont remember mentioning Palghat at all. Must be someone else. I have no connection to that place, except transiting through it... (Palghat folks cook extrememly well .. ).. Of course folks in my family are married into Palghat types (but that is true for nealry ALL tam brahms from either side of the mountains..)