South India River Water Issues/Disputes

[vina]

From the same link given by karthikSan

n May 1970, in what is now considered in Kerala as a "blunder" committed by its leaders, the two States signed a formal agreement to renew almost in toto the 1886 lease agreement, which had by then become invalid. Subsequently, Kerala also became aware of the increasing use of the Mullaperiyar waters by Tamil Nadu. (By the early 1990s, the total irrigated area in the Periyar-Vaigai basin in Tamil Nadu had been extended by 44,000 acres. This led to a quantum jump in the amount of water required for irri gation, and a worsening of the water scarcity in the four districts of Tamil Nadu.)

The pattern is the same users increase and demand increases...even if the origin of the water source has similar issues to face with in future...the beneficiary of the agreement claims it as its birthright. :evil:

Yup.. This appears to be the "root cause" / real problem . The safety stuff somehow sounds like a smoke screen. After all, it was 136 feet for a long time as mandated by Central Water Commission and TN made the necessary repairs / upgrades and after it was done , demanded an increase in height back to the original 152 ft!.

Kerala I am sure wants the water for Idukki dam and other uses.

Kerala began to face extended spells of acute water and power shortages. Kerala had constructed the Idukki hydroelectric project 50 km downstream from the Periyar dam but did not have enough water to utilise its full capacity.

I think what TN should do is trade power for water.. TN can invest (has the capacity) to invest in ultra thermal power stations in Tuticorin /Ramnad kind of places close to the sea, size the plants in massive excess of demand and wheel the excess power to Kerala to sell..

Times have changed hence this rethink. TN has to adjust maadabeku onlee in water usage patterns now that Uncle Jack is no more around. :)

Ah.. When Unkil Jack was around, TN boor 'o' crats lorded it over everyone from Fort St George.. Old habits die hard saar! ..

A solution perhaps lies in acknowledging the two truths, but neither government can afford the political repercussions of such a confession.

Oh.. With dr artiste, revolutionary leader and other hundreds of pups biting at their heels all the time. SELL OUT! will ring very loudly indeed. So would it in Kerala, with commies and Kangress slugging it out!.

[Dileep]

So, hnair "folds the dice and the rug" because he realises the folly. I happen to agree fully with his last post BTW.

The problem with we people is that when we get to a position of responsibility/power, we are scared shit of being accused of partiality to our kind. So, in order to maintain the image/H&D we tend to take decisions biased against our kind. This happen time and again with babus and even politicians who become ministers at the centre. I can't blame anyone else for that. It is a trait.

If the dam is safe, why TN object any effort to evaluate it? Why object the inspection by the navy?

It is an H&D thing. They KNOW the dam is damned, and if that comes out it will expose their total disregard for safety. That is the ONLY problem.

When you tell uncomfortable truths, it hurts isn't it? So you feel it is flaming. I understand.

[KarthikSan]

So, hnair "folds the dice and the rug" because he realises the folly. I happen to agree fully with his last post BTW.

The problem with we people is that when we get to a position of responsibility/power, we are scared shit of being accused of partiality to our kind. So, in order to maintain the image/H&D we tend to take decisions biased against our kind. This happen time and again with babus and even politicians who become ministers at the centre. I can't blame anyone else for that. It is a trait.

What you are implying is that all KL politicians and officials are impartial while TN indulges in all kinds of skulduggery to pull a fast one on ya? You are really something my friend!!!

If the dam is safe, why TN object any effort to evaluate it? Why object the inspection by the navy?

It is an H&D thing. They KNOW the dam is damned, and if that comes out it will expose their total disregard for safety. That is the ONLY problem.

Because KL signed an agreement in 1970 and then found out that they shot themselves in the foot. They now don't want to honor that agreement by bringing up all kinds of safety issues and there is a good chance that the Navy inspection will be rigged to tow their line. Why does KL not accept the inspections done by the CWC? Can you answer that please? Are your politicians afraid that all their scare tactics will be revealed?

When you tell uncomfortable truths, it hurts isn't it? So you feel it is flaming. I understand.

I don't mind you telling the truth. I am here for a discussion and I am interested in learning your POV. But that doesn't mean I should listen to name calling. That is why I call it flaming. Enough said.

[vina]

If the dam is safe, why TN object any effort to evaluate it? Why object the inspection by the navy?

Why Navy of all the folks ? .. Do they have some special expertise in large civil engg structures.. Me thinks that was primarily the army corp of engg job even in the old old days when the army actually built those kind of things.

More than Navy, get a world renowned dam /structural engg expert /consulting firm /any org and ask them to examine the safety issues in toto, recommend remedials if necessary and get done with .
Now if CWC was the org for that in India and TN did what was asked and if you still are not happy, then get an outside expert..
. If they disagree with the CWC and say that the dam is beyond repair and must be condemned and dismantled and a new one built in it's place, so be it. If not , you must accept the fixes to the dam (as per the outside experts' view_, like the CWC and supreme did with TN's repairs and get on with it.

In the absence of such outside expert opinion , doomsday scenarios of a "huge wall of water" .. made with limestone and "jaggery" sounds shrill and alarmist, dont you think ? Right now the only guys who shrilly insist that the dam is unsafe is the Kerala politicos like PJ Joseph , while every other body (CWC, Supreme court, TN govt) agree that the dam is safe enough for 142 ft!

Frankly, Navy divers, going and "examining" the dam is going to be just a sight seeing tour..

[Dileep]

Because KL signed an agreement in 1970 and then found out that they shot themselves in the foot. They now don't want to honor that agreement by bringing up all kinds of safety issues and there is a good chance that the Navy inspection will be rigged to tow their line. Why does KL not accept the inspections done by the CWC? Can you answer that please? Are your politicians afraid that all their scare tactics will be revealed?

The CWC inspection was a farce. The objections of the Kerala representative was literally "shouted down" by the chairman.

BTW, KL is not saying we need more water. You can take ALL the water you are entitled for. Just build another dam, so that the "big wall of water" doesn't happen.

You build another dam and raise the head to whatever level you want! I have no problem.

The dam IS built by rocks and a mixture of jaggery and lime called surki. That is an undisputed fact. Why do you make fun of it?

[hnair]

Ah thanks for the clarifications Vina. thought you were wading in just for the fun of it. A rather inadvisable approach, when it comes to South's inter-state issues.

So, hnair "folds the dice and the rug" because he realises the folly. I happen to agree fully with his last post BTW.

interesting. Happily eating baits with a banner in the background proclaiming "Mission Accomplished". Now where did I see another gent wearing warrior costume do exactly that.... hmmm. Oh yeah

[SwamyG]

SwamyG, I see that you have NOTHING to say about the grave issue, while you complain about the generalization.

That very well shows that how valid that generalization is, doesn't it? You, SwamyG, I presume a Tamilian, falls within that generalized category of the bad Tamils who want the water, but don't care about the people. You are worried that someone complains about it. Image? H&D?

I have nothing more to say.

You are freaking crazy. What do you want me to say? I clearly said if TN government made a mistake, then it should be made accountable. What more you expect rhetorics and generalization like you?

I clearly said, the lives and safety are more important. Haven't I? Yes I care about tamilians H&D and image, anything wrong with it? It would be wrong only if I had placed it before the lives of innocent human beings - i.e. mallu brothers in this case. No I mention lives are important.

I am not an expert like "you" and others here on the subject matter of if the dam will hold or not. If the civil engineers and other experts agree it is a safety issue to raise the dam level, then so it is. Who am I to jump and say anything. Other experts can feel free to contradict those experts.

So my lack of comments owing to me deferring to experts judgments is enough for you to generalization. Great man. You are simply great. If you can not see your closed mindedness, nothing is going to save you. Just sit and whine.

You, SwamyG, I presume a Tamilian,

Yea that is the language we speak now. Who knows what we spoke earlier considering the things we do at home. My forefather was a dharmadhikari in the Mysore state, who got some lands as "inam" from Mysore State in few agraharams. Based on the traditions at home, it looks like the descendants seem to have roamed lots of lands in the south.

We celebrate Ugadhi. Right now, as I write this, we have the "Vishu Kanni" mirror and arrangement at my house sitting. The grains, the ornaments, the fruits, the money etc before the mirror. Parents still insisting I at the reflection of those things from the mirror.

Yeah, I am a tamilian and care for H&D about tamilians but not before innocent lives of mallus, tamilians or anybody else.

Feel free to talk about the dam and its safety, and leave out the generalization - that is my concern.

[ramana]

The linguistic division of states is turning into a nightmare that Savarkar wrote in his letters from Andaman. Try to get hold of them.

[Bade]

If the competition for resources among states divided along linguistic, ethnic or arbitrary lines follows dharma then it would be the path of least friction. It cannot be the linguistic fault lines alone that lead to such issues not being resolved.

[Raju]

The linguistic division of states is turning into a nightmare ...

don't worry have curry. This is nothing serious and happens from time to time.

[Theo_Fidel]

The linguistic division of states is turning into a nightmare that Savarkar wrote in his letters from Andaman. Try to get hold of them.

Hardly, this is a ethnic and resource issue not language dominance one.

The cauvery dispute has existed from long before the 1956 division.

[SwamyG]

I started of thinking the linguistic divisions of India was just problems. But later on I began to concede that there were some good benefits. I have not read Savarkar's take on it. I must read it. I agree with Bade, if we can have dharmic settlement it is better for all of us.

If folks who have been more exposed to outside life and culture, can not help themselves from generalizations and stereotyping then it should not surprise us when the politicians and "intellectuals" are able to sway by reaching into public who get easily riled up. We all make generalizations and have our biases, but when one is pointed that a case can not hold water the reaction tells a lot about how important or deep past experiences have been.

It is the atmosphere and culture that our people get so worked up. That is why I think a better way to address this would be with the help of private enterprises and universities.

[SwamyG]

Hardly, this is a ethnic and resource issue not language dominance one.

Can you elaborate on why you think it is an ethnic issue? To me all the people on both sides look and behave the same. Their modes of worship, culture, ethnicity, tradition & food all have common threads and are intertwined. There is similarities even in caste across the four southern states. I am not saying things are homogeneous and we all are one and the same. It is just that there are too many connections in the past, present and future.

I don't know about mallu brothers, but people in the other three states seems to be so enthusiastic seeing their cine actors shaping their political atmosphere. My friend was happy that Chiroo was getting into politics.

There is diversity and variety no doubt. But are we different ethnically?

[Theo_Fidel]

This is a emotional issue and hard to settle...

The main conflict is between the Mysore area groups and Salem Erode & Thanjavur groupings. These are the Szen Thamilzh areas of TN, or pure Tamil. They share a common origin and identify with the old Chola dynasties. Versus the Pandya to the south & Pallava (Telugu) towards Madras.

There was much conflict in this area especially over the the old Ganga kingdom. The boundary at that time was the river Thungabadra between the Chola empire and the Chalukyas to the North. The same Chola king who built the Kallanai near Thiruchi also build the river infrastructure in Mysore and Srirangapatinam Island area.

The Tamil speakers in the Mysore area are still called Thigilars from the old country denominations. They are still a huge chunk of the population well over a third. They also form huge chunks in the Chittoor, Kolar gold fields, and Kollegal area. All in the border territory. The Tamil speakers are not land owners.

Idukki too at that time was Tamil speakers majority, but the Tamil speakers were classified as Keralite to facilitate administration. No one objected then and no one objects now. The people live peacefully and the border is almost non existent anyway, expect for trade.

They are also extremely fertile with a population growth well over that of other communities. This is also true of the Tamil population belt around the Northern border.

This population group is only going to get more dominant over time. Already they pretty much set the agenda for TN. There will be a time in 20 years when they will be 50% of TN's population.

The conflict has just begun...

[bala]

The dam IS built by rocks and a mixture of jaggery and lime called surki. That is an undisputed fact.

I was wondering why there is an instant conclusion being made about the strength of the Mullaperiyar dam, an ancient dam built with indigenous technology. Here we have another ancient dam, built in 1st century AD, still standing today and augmented futher recently. No one seems to be bothered with whether the Grand Anicut will collapse. So my question is why the false expectations on another ancient dam. Were the ancients who created the dam not aware of robust designs? Are rocks and slurry not sufficient, the dam has held onto to itself for a rather long time. Why the sense of doom and gloom.

Grand Anicut

The Kallanai is a massive dam of unhewn stone, 329 metres (1,080 feet) long and 20 metres (60 feet) wide, across the main stream of the Cauvery. It was built by the Chola king Karikalan around the 1st Century AD. The purpose of the dam was to divert the waters of the Cauvery across the fertile Delta region for irrigation via canals. The dam is still in excellent repair, and supplied a model to later engineers, including the Sir Arthur Cotton's 19th-century dam across the Kollidam, the major tributary of the Cauvery. The area irrigated by the ancient irrigation network of which the dam was the centrepiece was 69,000 acres (280 square kilometres). By the early 20th century the irrigated area had been increased to about 1,000,000 acres (4,000 square kilometres).The Grand Anicut, also known as the Kallanai, is an ancient dam built on the Kaveri River in the state of Tamil Nadu in southern India.

[svinayak]

The linguistic division of states is turning into a nightmare that Savarkar wrote in his letters from Andaman. Try to get hold of them.

Hardly, this is a ethnic and resource issue not language dominance one.

The cauvery dispute has existed from long before the 1956 division.

It has perpetuated the dispute

[Theo_Fidel]

The dam IS built by rocks and a mixture of jaggery and lime called surki. That is an undisputed fact.

I was wondering why there is an instant conclusion being made about the strength of the Mullaperiyar dam, an ancient dam built with indigenous technology.

Very different situation, the Kallanai is a Barrage, like a water valve.

The first Mulla Periyar dam collapsed in a flood. No one lived in the area at the time. Quite different now.

[Theo_Fidel]

It has perpetuated the dispute

There are disputes to which there are no good solutions. In such cases they will go on. You rarely hear a South Indian saying this.

Every new state has been created in the North. Does this mean quarrels without linguistic divisions melt away miraculously.

How about the never ending Jamuna canal. or the never ending squabbles in the North East.

[SwamyG]

Theo: I don't know if your post was a response to my request for elaboration. If so, I did not see an explanation for the ethnicity factor. I just see history and identity factors.

[Theo_Fidel]

Theo: I don't know if your post was a response to my request for elaboration. If so, I did not see an explanation for the ethnicity factor. I just see history and identity factors.

I did answer your post.

Apparently our definitions of ethnicity are different.

Are you confusing ethnicity for race perhaps.

[SwamyG]

Theo: Not really. That is why apart from appearance I included behavior, customs, traditions, worship etc.

My thoughts were along these lines, except I had dropped the lingual component.

An ethnic group or ethnicity is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry.[1] Ethnic identity is also marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness[2] and by common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioral or biological traits.[1][3]

Ethnicity and race are related concepts in that both are usually defined in terms of shared genealogy.[11] Often, ethnicity also connotes shared cultural, linguistic, behavioural or religious traits. For example, to call oneself Jewish or Arab one immediately invokes a clutch of linguistic, religious, cultural and racial features that are held to be common within each ethnic category. Such broad ethnic categories have also been termed macroethnicity[12] to distinguish them from smaller more subjective ethnic features, often termed microethnicity.[13][14] Race, by contrast, refers to "some concentrations, as relative to frequency and distribution, of hereditary particles (genes) and physical characters, which appear, fluctuate, and often disappear in the course of time by reason of geographic and or cultural isolation." In 1950, the UNESCO statement The Race Question, signed by some of the internationally renowned scholars of the time (including Ashley Montagu, Claude Lévi-Strauss, Gunnar Myrdal, Julian Huxley, etc.), suggested that: "National, religious, geographic, linguistic and cultural groups do not necessarily coincide with racial groups: and the cultural traits of such groups have no demonstrated genetic connection with racial traits. Because serious errors of this kind are habitually committed when the term 'race' is used in popular parlance, it would be better when speaking of human races to drop the term 'race' altogether and speak of 'ethnic groups'."[15]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

[Avinash R]

Kerala facing acute water scarcity: Minister
Link
Thiruvananthapuram | Monday, Jul 7 2008 IST

Kerala Water Resources Minister N K Premachandran today told the State Assembly that the state was moving towards serious water scarcity following moonsoon failure.

Replying to questions from Mr V Chendamarakshan (CPM ) and others, he said though the state had received good summer rainfall, the monsoon rainfall this year was 65 per cent rain less than the previous year.

Stating climatic change had affected water resources gravely, he said the government would take the issue very seriously and added it had to be studied as it was a social issue.

Mr Premachandran said the government was seriously considering effecting necessary changes in the building rules to check misuse of water.

The Water Resources Minister said though the Water Authority had recommended a hike in water charges, the government had not taken a decision in this regard so far.



New dam only permanent solution: Minister
Thiruvananthapuram | Monday, Jul 7 2008 IST
Link
Reiterating the century-old Mullaperiyar Dam is in a dangerous condition, Kerala Water Resources Minister N K Premachandran today told the State Assembly the construction of a new dam was the only permanent solution.

Replying to submissions, he said the findings of the study by the Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi (IIT-D) justified the state's demand for construction of a new dam on the site.

The study conducted by the institute said the dam would be 'Hydrologically Unsafe' in the event of heavy rainfall. The Minister said the government would submit the reports of IIT-D and other agencies to the Supreme Court to strengthen its argument.

He said the state government had also formed a special cell exclusively for the conduct of the case related to the Mullaperiyar Dam against Tamil Nadu. The cell was headed by Mr M K Parameswaran Nair, Former Member of the KSEB.

The 111-year-old Mullaperiyar Dam, located in Idukki District of Kerala, is operated by Tamil Nadu. The dispute between the two states arose after Tamil Nadu demanded increase in storage level of the dam to 152 feet so that it could bring more areas under irrigation. Kerala, however, opposed the move by stating that an increase in the storage level would risk the thickly-populated districts downstream.

[ramana]

Theo, That was a fantastic lesson on how history shapes the present. So these Szen Tamils what is their unique selling point? and main grouse? What do they want? Is there something to worry about in future? Who are the current leaders? IS MK a leader for them?

[John Snow]

Swamy G s are generally immune to provocation, irritation, and aggravation. Sometimes under duress they resort to meditation upon which levitation may occur.

Om Shanti Shanti
put some tulasi dala in a water tumbler chant the Kalsa mantra

"Ganga Yamuna krishna godavari, cavery, Narmada sindhu sannidham kuru"

[shaardula]

this tungabhadra border was for a period of 100 years right? between the time the gangas were defeated and untill the hoysalas rose. there were battles before that but the actual tungabhadra boundary was only for 100 years, right? in any case cholas were out of SoKa by 1118. in many cases, the cholas made sandhi through marraiges.

where are you getting demographic data from?
mysore is 5% of KA pop, mandya 3.3%, Chamarajanagara 2%, kolar 4.8%, bangalore rural 3.5%, excluding bangalore urban, in south KA and excluding hassan(home of a lot of old tamils) thats about 18%
total tamil in KA is 3.8%.
in KA biggest lingistic minority is deccani(9.7%), followed by Telugu(8.3%), followed by marathi(3.95%), then comes tamil(3.8%).
Tamil is prolly most concentrated in SoKA (which includes Hassan, BLR URB and DK, though i know thanks to railways Hubli has a good chunk of tamilians). Even if we take half of all these to reside in SoKA(which is an overestimate, considering that Hyderabad Karnataka and Bombay-Karnataka are Telugu and Marathi centers and deccani is spread all through the state with strong numbers in NoKa, CoKa and InKa) that is about 15% non-kannada speaking population in SoKA, including all the 3.8% of tamil speakers.

in general what are you arriving at? this tigilar theory is also new to me. i might have heard the term before but i know nothing about it. any references?

kollegala was under coimatore and was transferred back to KA.

[shaardula]

in general what are you arriving at? that this is a conflict based on 100 year rule more than a 1000 years ago?
and what are you suggesting tigilars will do or what is their significance to this ethnic battle? why is demographics of TA speakers or of people with TA strain within KA a significant issue?

i googled around(agreed not an exhaustive search), and found only this reference to thigiLar, apart from your mention of the term in BRF. but
http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/karnataka.htm
and the tone and tenor of that article is not very persuasive, to say the least. lets leave out the rest of it for the moment, look at this point on demographics:

The districts of Kolar, Bangalore, Mysore, parts of Mandya and Tumkur formed the kingdom of the Gangas. It was known as Old Mysore after the States were reorganised.
Though the Ganganadu was often ruled by non-Tamils, the mainstay of its population remained Tamil; and they were called as Thigilaru by the Kannadigas. Ganganadu was the traditional homeland of the Thigilar.

this i have never heard of before, in whatever reading i have done ...

[shaardula]

another piece from that article...

This demographic anachronism made the minority Kannadigas to live with a hazy majority complex. It caused the Kannada psyche to go aggressively chauvinistic in its expression, rather than evolving into the linguistic national or nationality consciousness seeking the right of self-determination.

Overall in KA, including bangalore about (35% of state population), KA is 66% (excluding Tulu, Kodava, and Konkani and tribal variants to kannada and also sanketi)
As i showed above in SoKA non-{DE-TE-MA-TE} population, excluding Bangalore and overestimating Telugu, Marathi and deccani population is about 85%. Considering that, in that article, telugu, deccani and marathi speakers of the south donot figure in their plans, that reduces this ethnic population of interest to at best 3.8% in current times.

Even during the time of the gangas, i cannot find references to languages spoken by the masses then but never ever heard this theory of local population being tamil. but considering that this was the period when jainas were ascendent in the region and sanskrit in literary circles of kannada, and considering that a lot of jaina literarture was produced in kannada during this time under the gangas in the region, and many outside royal patronage, it is safe to assume that kannada was the local spoken language.

i am really curious theo, where are you getting this theory from?

[SwamyG]

The Tamils Eighteen Hundred Years Ago, published in the year 1904, throws some light on the geographical limits of the then tamilakkam.

[Bade]

That book is all one sided propaganda that will put PRC to shame. Tamil lands from west to eastern shores...with maps. Where are the tamil inscriptions in stone on the western shores...where are the ruins of tamil architecture on the western shores...where is the hint of a tamil pysche anywhere in the population of present day kerala be they namboodiris or a pulayan....keep dreaming of a non existent tamil empire....from coast to coast.

[vina]

That book is all one sided propaganda that will put PRC to shame. Tamil lands from west to eastern shores...with maps. Where are the tamil inscriptions in stone on the western shores...where are the ruins of tamil architecture on the western shores...where is the hint of a tamil pysche anywhere in the population of present day kerala be they namboodiris or a pulayan....keep dreaming of a non existent tamil empire....from coast to coast.

I know it is going to get your goat. But modern day Kerala is descended from the Old Tamil Land called Cheranadu. And much as you might blush at it, Cheras were Tamils. Come on , Malalayam and Tamil are so close to each other that it is is obvious they branched off only very recently. Same the case with Kannada and Tamil (Mallu even closer to tamil than Kannada). In fact, I would say, Tulu and coastal districts of Karnataka (specifically Dakshina Kannada) , are pretty close to Tamil. No wonder .. They were all part of the Madras Presidency. In fact, Madras presidency approximated the extent of the Chola Kingdoms (which of course would have included Travancore and Mysore as well)..

No Tamil Psyche in present day Kerala ? Come on, even when you cuss and count , you do so in very close tamil. For eg, some of the swear words are "senh" (pure) Tamil onree.

As for the Kaveri dispute, let us not forget that Dakshina Kannada was part of Madras presidency. So they controlled both the upper AND lower riparian part and they shared water with the kingdom in the middle called Mysore. Same with Periyar /Mullaiperiyar. It is not for nothing that a rail link existed for ages between Mangalore and Chennai and not between Bangalore and Mangalore.

These "disputes" if you call them, are because of the formation of new state and the definition of upper and lower riparian changed , that is all. If you want a full "solution" without any compromise at all, then go back to the old Madras Presidency and the problem fully solves itself.. .. Zimble no ?

(Then of course, Raju's dream of being ruled by Amma's Maravar hordes can be fully realized and Dileep's favorite midlands will be fully under the thumb of the baboos in Fort St George, while good old Travancore types like me and hnair can live in peace in splendid isolation!)

[ramana]

And the first Indian governor of the Madras Presidency was a Telugu- Sir S.V. Ramamurti ICS.

[svinayak]

Overall in KA, including bangalore about (35% of state population), KA is 66% (excluding Tulu, Kodava, and Konkani and tribal variants to kannada and also sanketi)
As i showed above in SoKA non-{DE-TE-MA-TE} population, excluding Bangalore and overestimating Telugu, Marathi and deccani population is about 85%. Considering that, in that article, telugu, deccani and marathi speakers of the south donot figure in their plans, that reduces this ethnic population of interest to at best 3.8% in current times.

Even during the time of the gangas, i cannot find references to languages spoken by the masses then but never ever heard this theory of local population being tamil. but considering that this was the period when jainas were ascendent in the region and sanskrit in literary circles of kannada, and considering that a lot of jaina literarture was produced in kannada during this time under the gangas in the region, and many outside royal patronage, it is safe to assume that kannada was the local spoken language.

i am really curious theo, where are you getting this theory from?

Also Dakshina Kannada/Tulu nadu was under Madras presidency. The British created this perception of entitlement for the Tamils which included the Cauvery and other parts.

One Bangalore person I know who is a descendant of the Hosyala says the same thing about the claims of the Tamils over Balore, Mysore/Cauvery , Kolar and others parts of karnataka. This is a Tamil expansionism seed put by the British.
Hence a strong Anti -Tamil force has developed in Bangalore.

[vina]

Also Dakshina Kannada/Tulu nadu was under Madras presidency. The British created this perception of entitlement for the Tamils which included the Cauvery and other parts.

One Bangalore person I know who is a descendant of the Hosyala says the same thing about the claims of the Tamils over Balore, Mysore/Cauvery , Kolar and others parts of karnataka. This is a Tamil expansionism seed put by the British.
Hence a strong Anti -Tamil force has developed in Bangalore.

Acharya, face it. Just like any other place in India, Karanataka is diverse, very diverse in fact. I would rate the diversity within Karnakata higher than in places like TN, Kerala and Andhra. There are many distinct regions within Karnataka ( Konkan, Kodagu, Old Mysore State, Bangalore, Hyd-Karnataka, and Bombay-Karnataka). There is a north south "split" within Karnataka in terms of industrial development, wealth, irrigation and other things as well. The prosperous /more developed areas are the Old Mysore , Bangalore belt, along with Kodagu and Coastal Karanataka. Lets face it. Other than the extractive mineral based economy in Bellary, north Karnatataka is a black hole that sucks in taxes from others and spits out nothing in return, except for politicos (who, of course can stay where they come from , thanks, if anyone can help it).

Now the present state of Karnataka, especially the prosperous parts (Old Mysore, Coastal Karnataka etc) were Always economically and socially a part of the surrounding states (duh..that is the reason why they are prosperous!). Bangalore is at the junction of 3 states (Karnataka, Andhra and TN) and the population naturally reflects that fact. Kolar, I think will have a Telugu majority , in fact the train from Bangalore to Chennai passe via Andhra (Kuppam etc)!. Come on. How far is the Andhra border from Whitefield and why is that the Whitefield -Sarjapur-Chittoor areas all "Reddy" owned (and residential areas "Reddy Made" , bad pun , I agree).

Same with Belgaum (population is half Marathi and half Kannadiga, huge amount of inter marriage, no one gives a damn anyways of Marathi /Kannadiga). Dont know about Hyd/Karnataka regions, I think the same would be true there as well (very surprised if it wasn't). Why werent the Chalukyas themselves bilingual (or more correctly wasn't Telugu AND Kannada the court languages, the scripts and much of the religious calender couldnt have been same otherwise).

Point is, all very happy family!. The problem (kabab mein haddi) is the politicos who and other "intellectual" busybodies (by this I mean, the usual, "buddhi jeevis" and "filmi" types ) who want a "protected" market for their "literary" and "cultural" goods, however good bad /it is. No sir, no going out in the open world and winning like my favorite man Rajinikanth or like Dr Rajkumar . Rajinikant is from Karnataka, while Rajkumar was from TN!.. Chew on that .

This "anti tamil force" in Bangalore is manufactured. It doesn't suit the Kannadiga genius and I always maintained that the Chaluvalis are wannabe "dravidian parties" (one of the innumerable kazhagams). Foggedabout it. The people of Karnataka are far better than that and deserve much better.

If you want Dr Artiste type politics, take it elsewhere. The old mysore, bangalore, kodagu and DK , Tulunad kind of regions have no need for it. They were always the more cosmopolitan and mixed regions. Take it to Hubli, Raichur, Gulbarga, Bidar or some of those far away places that people would find difficult to place on the map. Go build a "new capital" if you want for Karnataka (oh.. Bangalore will pay for it anyways) a grand /brand new great capital as befitting a state that inherits the Hoysala legacy (where else to build it ,except in the old Chalukya heartland). Not unheard of no.. NY state has Albany as capital, CA has Sacramento, IL has Springfield.. none of the big American cities are capitals of thier states. In that capital city you can have a 100% "homogenous" population , where every govt and even private establishment.. from the peon, bellboy , janitor to the top shot boor-o-crat to the politico can be same-same.. Of course the "poets", "writers" and "intellectuals" and others who crave and need govt patronage for their "cultural " and "literary" products can congregate there. Everyone will be happy. No heartburn about govt jobs , no heart burn about "outsiders" in PSU, no nothing. Develop northern karnataka in anyway you see fit. Even put a Chini Panda/Soviet Union like Hukou/ Propiska thing to restric "outsiders" from coming in. Just leave the existing places as is and continue to be the messy cosmopolitan , multi ethnic places.

However if the folks in your "new atlantis/pakiland " are bored to death with the same/same and govt Neta-Babu-Pandu giri and lack of dynamism and and vote with their feet to move to the "messy" areas, too bad, isnt it . Those guys are the Kafirs, you are better off without , while we messy folks welcome them with open arms and raise a torch to them like the lady in NY harbor!.

Mark my words. Dr Artiste type politics didn't make TN better. It made it worse, far less cosmopolitan and inward looking and dumbed down. If Chaluvalis want to ape it and make KA bad, take it to your own backyard. Dont spoil the good parts of Karnataka with it.

[vina]

And the first Indian governor of the Madras Presidency was a Telugu- Sir S.V. Ramamurti ICS.

No problem at all. That place is a big melting pot , "Mama Madras" would embrace all within her bosom. Heck, all the recent CMs there that I can remember have some outside connection. , MGR -Mallu , Amma - Kannada origins, Dr Artiste -- suspect more Telugu than Tamil in origin. the entire Justice Party types , huge mix of Mallu, Kannada and Telugu non brahmins (Dr Nair, Shenoy, Sir Thiyagarajan, EV Ramaswamay.. etc..etc). Lets look at wannabe CMs. Vaiko-->Telugu. If only he wanted to he can be CM in a jiffy-- Rajinikanth aka Shivaji Rao -> Marathi .

I would argue that except for Dharam Singh, all the CMs in Karnataka have be "mannin magas" (sons of the soil) , same with Andhra and Kerala as well.

Oh, thank your lucky stars that Madras didnt have a water problem before the states reorg was done. Or else, with Krishna and Godavari in tail ends with Madras Presidency, Telugu Ganga would have got done in a minute and you would have had "water wars" between TN and Andhra!

[shaardula]

Ramana, the first chief minster of KA(Mysore state) too was a telugu congressman from kolar.
jayachamaraja Wodeyar Bahadur was the rajapramuk/governor of Mysore/KA till 64. he was even the governor of TN for 2 years.

DK is not in the basin of kaveri. DK is in that western half of the ghats. All waters from there flow into Arabian sea.

Kodagu was under the british.

Total kodava area under direct british control was 4,100 sq km. Total KA kaveri basin area = 34,273 sq km including a lot of areas in the malnad and the south western hills(including parts in kerala) and hills north of kodagu which are primary basins of major tributaries for cauvery.

kaveri basin in kodagu consists contributes to harangi and parts of kabini.
hemavathy, shimsha and arkavathy are other major contributors to kaveri.

i dont understand how controlling kodagu you can control the source.

I was looking through some stats in an academic report, apparently in Kerala, people native malayalam speakers are in high 90s. This makes it the most linguistically homogenous state in the country apparently.

added later...
In KA writers have captured greater imagination than CMs.
Kailasam, Bendre, Karanth, Karnad, Masti, Gorur, Ismail, Rashid, DVG* goes on...
In current day politics, PGR Sindhia a maratha, currently the all powerful reddys & sriramulu(who has a bad sheet but people in gadag rave about him for helping textiles), Katta Naidu, currently out of currency, laad and p number of other mlas and local leaders. many of our RS MPs from out of state (Chandrashekaran, Rajashekaran, Naidu). There have been many others in the past.

not to mention, god to many Sir MV.


digression from thread:
*for those interested DVG barely schooled was a highly regarded thinker and philosopher. he was a close friend and counsel of Sir MV. He even used to write papers in scientific journals.
ogcourse his son BGL Swamy, who was a biologist, took paper writing to another level. He wrote more than 300 journal papers - first author. But he is more famous for a pithy little book filled with deep anthropological observations he made. Many of observations are on display even here in BRF.

ramana i also wanted to tell you birju maharaj's daughter is a sculptor and is married to another sculptor who is also a kannadiga who is related(maternal side) to bhimsen joshi, who is related to sunil joshi. basically they are people from dharwad-gadag area. their little daughter(must be a teenager now) also paints. shez even managed to sell internationally though piggy backing on her dad's work.

[shaardula]

but the point is all of them earned their spurs on a linguistic/nationalistic platform.
and haven't we all heard of increasingly noisier noises about not being tamil enough? that rajani and amma cant resonate to tamil identity like some of the others can? now it might not mean anything in terms of $$$ but the idea is there and there are some prominent and influential takers of that theory too.

[Raju]

Also Dakshina Kannada/Tulu nadu was under Madras presidency. The British created this perception of entitlement for the Tamils which included the Cauvery and other parts.

One Bangalore person I know who is a descendant of the Hosyala says the same thing about the claims of the Tamils over Balore, Mysore/Cauvery , Kolar and others parts of karnataka. This is a Tamil expansionism seed put by the British.
Hence a strong Anti -Tamil force has developed in Bangalore.

this is a good explanation, there is a strong sense of entitlement in TN.

[ramana]

Its a small world afterall. I went to see Briju Maharaj in last May in SF as he is an icon.

vina, no problem. Only reinforcing your view that not just Karnataka but entire south of Vindhyas was diverse peoplewise but integrated at same time -politically, economically and culturally. The colonial period and the rise of DK type chauvinistic exclusivity is a recent phenomenon say three- four hundred years old. Orissa folks lament that under the Company the Bengalis lorded over them and just plain suppressed them. Same case in Bihar. The linguistic division movement of the Telugus was due to the vast dominance of the Tamils (and more so Tam brahmins if I may say so) during the British and subsequent period. In fact Savarkar worries about linguistic regionalism while in Andaman jail for regions were diverse and held together throughout history. However linguistic state formation created a sort of Westphalina peace inside sub-continental India not seen in history leading to the peace and prosperity. However they have sharpened the divide also as the river water disputes etc show.

And a few stories of Sir SVR. He was named ofter his great-great-great grandfather who was the guru to the doyen of Carnatic music: Tyagaraja. I was told there is mural in Thanjavur palace with the painting of the ancestor! Sir SVR was a math afficinado and did his Tripos. He wrote paper and sent to Albert Einstien with a note that he would take up acarrer in math if he approved of the paper or sit for civil services exam. He got a reply that he should prepare for the exams! And he went on to earn great laurels.

[Paul]

Tamilians were the camp followers of the British East India company during the madras army days. This is why you can strong tamil pops in cantonment towns in karnataka and Andhra. Example - Secunderabad/Bangalore. This geographical reach has given them a leg up over the other linguistic groups in South India. Cauvery dispute among other is a way of other groups engaging in tussle to regain the intitiative.

I have seen Tambrams(educated ones at that) getting upset over the NorthIndian invasion of Bangalore and Chennai and even advocating secession from the union. I wonder that is the case when they are the ones to suffer the most from the dravida movement and they should be siding with their aryan cousins. It must be becuz they know their interests are inextricably linked with their ethnic kinsmen and they are losing the initiative they gained during the british days....and Stockholm syndrome too.

[putnanja]

Now the present state of Karnataka, especially the prosperous parts (Old Mysore, Coastal Karnataka etc) were Always economically and socially a part of the surrounding states (duh..that is the reason why they are prosperous!).

You do a great disservice to the wodeyars who were responsible for the growth of outh karnataka. It was their forward looking policies in education and industries that made Southern karnataka prosperous, not because of being a part of surrounding states. There is hardly anything that was contributed by surrounding states. The British had a cantonment because of its climate.