Indian Space Program Discussion

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sauravjha
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Postby sauravjha » 04 May 2008 09:09

The Defence Ministry had purchased satellite photographs of Hainan Island from Quickbird Satellite and had briefed the three armed forces chiefs as well as Narayanan, but it did not have the latest images that show the extent of development at Sanya.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... ewsid=9998


from Indian express, of course.

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Postby Gerard » 04 May 2008 16:37

Questioned on the demand by the Indian Defence Forces for an exclusive satellite, the Chairman said the existing satellites could do multiple and exclusive tasks to cater to the demands of defence forces. The ISRO is also engaged in diverse field of activities.


This is a heaven-sent opportunity for the military to push for their own exclusive birds....

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Postby rsingh » 04 May 2008 19:21

American strategists used to satisfy themselves by reminding rest of the world that "Chinese are at least 20 years behind " Americans. Thus allowing Chinese to project power and even helping them to do so.

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Postby p_saggu » 04 May 2008 20:16

Either way, there is a need for the Air-force to have an exclusive launcher for mil satellites in the future. Also there is a need to keep a certain number of small "Disposable" satellites with imaging, SAR and mil communications, to be kept on stand-by on the ground, a cluster of which could be launched whenever the security situation demands so.
These satellites could have enough fuel to enable heavy maneuvering and multiple passes over the area of interest, for a period lasting several months. A cluster of such birds in LEO could be very useful indeed. (Perhaps it is with such an idea that the IMS was launched).

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Postby Vidyarthi » 04 May 2008 20:19

For more insight into the evolution of launch vehicles of ISRO, refer

"GROWING ROCKET SYSTEMS AND THE TEAM", S.C.GUPTA,
PRISM, 2006

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Postby Gerard » 04 May 2008 20:31

A 4 stage variant of the Agni-3 should be IMS launch capable.. and if Unkil complains, well it is just a satellite launcher, not an ICBM...
Last edited by Gerard on 04 May 2008 21:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Vidyarthi » 04 May 2008 20:37

Destination moon
Saturday May 3 2008 18:12 IST

G Babu Jayakumar

http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/sunda ... ry&rLink=0

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Postby Dilbu » 04 May 2008 20:43

Thus, the perfect-10 launch marks a deviation from the course that Indian space programme has been following till now. "India's strength all along has been in satellite-building and remote-sensing, and the world powers were expecting that India would put its remote-sensing capabilities for strategic use," pointed out a scientist. "We could have done it long ago, but as a developing nation, we had put our priorities in the civilian sector, especially in communication. Thus, the launch of CARTOSAT-2A is also a kind of strategic statement on the part of India."

Fantastic psyops by cunning SDRE scientists. :twisted:

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Postby Arunkumar » 04 May 2008 22:03

p_saggu wrote:Either way, there is a need for the Air-force to have an exclusive launcher for mil satellites in the future. Also there is a need to keep a certain number of small "Disposable" satellites with imaging, SAR and mil communications, to be kept on stand-by on the ground, a cluster of which could be launched whenever the security situation demands so.
These satellites could have enough fuel to enable heavy maneuvering and multiple passes over the area of interest, for a period lasting several months. A cluster of such birds in LEO could be very useful indeed. (Perhaps it is with such an idea that the IMS was launched).


I second that suggestion of having a exclusive launcher. In fact we require a dedicated military launch site on the lines on Vandenberg air base in US that is exclusively used by the 30th space wing of the USAF to launch Delta class rockets. Chandipur, Orissa fits the bill very well for such a facility. This would also take the load off Shriharikota since its going to be a busy schedule after MK3 is operationalised.

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Postby SSridhar » 05 May 2008 05:18

IMS holds the key to colourful vistas
[quote]The extremely high level of colour differentiation, however, reduces the fine view or resolution that a remote-sensing satellite camera can give. Dr Jayaraman told Business Line that in the coming years, ISRO was trying to fuse the two advantages – colour and clear view - on to one platform from an upcoming satellite, perhaps Cartosat-3.

This could go as fine as a resolution of 30 cm – the stupendously small size that can be picked up from a distance of 600 km above Earth. The best global offer today is around 40-50 cm by a US commercial satellite while Cartosat-2A that was launched on Monday can give up to 80-100 cm. ISRO will be offering 1-m imageries from Cartosat-2A, Dr Jayaraman said.

ISRO’s future remote sensing technology is getting smaller, sharper and specific. Starting with IMS-1, “We are going towards small satellites. Where the 1990s twin-cameras on an IRS weighed 120 kg and beamed 5-6 km resolution pictures, today’s IMS has a single camera of 5.5 kg. Our resolution is less than 1 metre (on Cartosat-2A),â€

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Postby Vipul » 05 May 2008 05:53

Zooming Pride.

ISRO gets 10/10. And India may have just launched its first spy-sat
By R. Prasanan.

The anxiety at the Satish Dhawan Space Centre was palpable. As the countdown ended, ISRO's chairman G. Madhavan Nair and his team could hardly believe their eyes. ISRO's pride was skyrocketing.
Despite their optimism, it was a nail-biting launch when Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) lifted off with 10 satellites from Sriharikota in Andhra Pradesh on April 28.

A few days prior to the launch, low pressure over the Bay of Bengal was looming large. But it had luckily moved away. Even after the blast-off, there was a tense moment when the telemetry signal indicating separation of the eight nano-satellites did not reach the ground. Dark memories of the 25-year-old taunts when Indian satellite launch vehicles plunged into the sea returned.

But that was momentary; India had created history, surpassing the mightiest space powers. It was not luck, but perseverance and a "will to win", as Nair put it in another context, that made his team put the giant CARTOSAT, a mini-satellite and eight foreign nano-satellites into 600-km-high orbits. "We have shown the world that we can do multiple launches with precision," said Nair.

Indeed, it was a capability statement to the world, which had seen Proton Space Agency delivering seven, the European Space Agency five and the American NASA four satellites in one go into orbit. NASA had attempted a 10-satellite launch but failed. None except the Russians, with their 13 last year, had attempted to put so many satellites in one go into orbit.

The 'capability statement' contains several messages. The most obvious, of course, is that India is now a serious player in the satellite launch market into which the big powers had prevented India from entering by denying cryogenic engine technology for its Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV).

Indeed, the perfect-10 launch was by no means commercial. As the eight nano-satellites were built by universities in the Netherlands, Germany, Japan, Canada and Denmark, Antrix Corporation, ISRO's Rs 660-crore commercial arm, charged just $12,000 per kilogram. According to Antrix managing director Sridhara Murthi, the prevailing rate is more than $ 20,000.

Thus, the launch was a spectacular ad clip to the world. "Our costs will be about 60 per cent cheaper than what is charged by advanced countries," said Nair. A truly commercial launch will take place next year with GSLV Mark-3, which can carry a two-tonne satellite. Murthi expects that with GSLV, India will capture about 10 to 15 per cent of the $250-billion satellite launch market. Meanwhile, PSLV will continue to launch small and medium satellites, and of course the Chandrayaan satellite to the moon's orbit later this year.

The hoopla over the launch deflected world attention from the 690-kg CARTOSAT-2A, which many describe as India's first spy satellite, but ISRO prefers to call it a civilian satellite.

ISRO describes it as a state-of-the art remote sensing satellite with a spatial resolution of about one metre and a swath of 9.6km. The satellite carries a panchromatic camera capable of taking black-and-white pictures in the visible region of electromagnetic spectrum.
The highly agile CARTOSAT-2A is steerable along as well as across its course to facilitate imaging of any area more frequently. According to Nair, one-metre resolution is required for many civilian applications, including checking alignment while building roads.

Perhaps because of the sensitivity involved, Indian scientists have been reluctant to talk about CARTOSAT's potential. As they had been talking about its launch in August, the April 28 launch was a surprise to many. According to ISRO, "Soon after separation from PSLV-C9's fourth stage, the two solar panels of CARTOSAT-2A were deployed.... High-resolution data from CARTOSAT-2A will be invaluable in urban and rural development applications calling for large-scale mapping."

The fact is that one-metre camera resolution is widely acknowledged to be ideal for military.
An officer in the Indian Air Force's space cell, set up in anticipation of a government clearance for an aerospace command, observed, "Defence services at present play only a passive role as captive customers, making use of limited satellite capability. This is now expected to change slowly. At least a beginning has been made."

The earlier-launched CARTOSAT-2 had military applications, and reports from IAF's space cell had described it as a military satellite. Incidentally, Squadron Leader K.K.Nair, joint director, operations (space) at Indian Air Force headquarters, wrote in the United Service Institution Journal, "Civilian earth-observation satellites are used for military remote-sensing; civilian (even commercial) communication satellites have been known to carry military transponders and military navigation satellites have overwhelming civilian users...."

Thus, the perfect-10 launch marks a deviation from the course that Indian space programme has been following till now. "India's strength all along has been in satellite-building and remote-sensing, and the world powers were expecting that India would put its remote-sensing capabilities for strategic use," pointed out a scientist. "We could have done it long ago, but as a developing nation, we had put our priorities in the civilian sector, especially in communication. Thus, the launch of CARTOSAT-2A is also a kind of strategic statement on the part of India."

The Indian armed forces have been requesting ISRO for two more imaging satellites. China has six dedicated military satellites, though it is not known how many of them are for spying and how many for communication. "With three, we will be able to cover the entire South Asian region," said an Indian Navy officer.

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Postby SSridhar » 05 May 2008 14:39

ISRO Scientists meet PM
"Sir, we are here," a space scientist told Singh pointing out the Prime Minister's residence in the picture of the national capital taken by Cartosat-2A.

"The pictures are very clear," Singh remarked upon seeing the satellite pictures.

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Postby rakall » 05 May 2008 17:56

SSridhar wrote:ISRO Scientists meet PM
"Sir, we are here," a space scientist told Singh pointing out the Prime Minister's residence in the picture of the national capital taken by Cartosat-2A.

"The pictures are very clear," Singh remarked upon seeing the satellite pictures.


A sample picture is here in the ISRO press release..

http://www.isro.org/pressrelease/May05_2008.htm

http://www.isro.org/pslv-c9/photo/11.jpg

wish they had hosted a larger picture...

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Postby Neela » 05 May 2008 18:55

Is the sample map taken with max resolution?

I think not....scale is 1:7000 which was probably done to hide the max resolution.

Can someone explain?

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Postby rakall » 05 May 2008 20:48

Neela wrote:Is the sample map taken with max resolution?

I think not....scale is 1:7000 which was probably done to hide the max resolution.

Can someone explain?


It is taken with best resolution.. but since the picture was resized while uploading on the web -- we are unable to see the detail..

Atleast if they had uploaded a 2400*1600 version it would have been sexy

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Postby SaiK » 05 May 2008 20:55

can some one host/redirect the pics from some other site? blocked. thx

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Postby Shalav » 05 May 2008 23:24

Image

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Postby ManuJ » 06 May 2008 03:22

This picture is in color, whereas all newspaper reports talk of Cartosat2A only being able to take black-and-white pictures?
Last edited by ManuJ on 06 May 2008 03:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby AshokS » 06 May 2008 03:41

The next version of Cartosat 2 series, the Cartosat 2E will have the black and white photo technology. For now we will have to live with color photos, due to the sanctions regime on black and white camera technology and associated systems.

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Postby ManuJ » 06 May 2008 03:45

AshokS wrote:The next version of Cartosat 2 series, the Cartosat 2E will have the black and white photo technology. For now we will have to live with color photos, due to the sanctions regime on black and white camera technology and associated systems.

Hah! Badly constructed sentence on my part; have corrected it. Thanks for providing the humor :)

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Postby hnair » 06 May 2008 05:38

Sridhar wrote:Valuable lessons were learnt from the four ASLV launches and the project terminated after that.


I wish they had not discontinued the ASLV launches. For that little rocket has the basics of almost all types of ELVs in the world today. If ISRO/Dept of Space could have spun its various sub-projects off to universities and kept launching it, we would have had a bunch of good young people who come in with that knowledge.

Thanks Vidyarthi-sir for those articles. Prior to last week, has been a long time since you have posted!

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Postby SSSalvi » 07 May 2008 18:18

rakall wrote:
Neela wrote:Is the sample map taken with max resolution?

I think not....scale is 1:7000 which was probably done to hide the max resolution.

Can someone explain?


It is taken with best resolution.. but since the picture was resized while uploading on the web -- we are unable to see the detail..

Atleast if they had uploaded a 2400*1600 version it would have been sexy


I don't know how many of you have read small prints in the data sale document of Carto-2. There are reasons ... ( should we say technical restrictions ) in zooming in beyond certain levels ... like noise, s/n etc which might have percolated to Carto-2A also.

ALL things are not available in public domain. More so for Carto-2A because very shortly the satellite itself will vanish from public domain

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Postby SSridhar » 07 May 2008 20:24

hnair wrote:I wish they had not discontinued the ASLV launches.


ASLV was meant to be a stepping stone from SLV to the more ambitious PSLV/GSLV. Apart from the new technologies that were tried out, the designers learnt a valuable lesson from the failures of ASLV, namely that they have to employ every control mechanism, control surface during the time the rocket travels through the dense atmospheric stage, in order to manage the dynamic pressure.

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Postby Gerard » 08 May 2008 16:11


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Postby Vipul » 09 May 2008 02:05


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Postby putnanja » 12 May 2008 01:20


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Postby Arun_S » 12 May 2008 02:49


"Helium has crucial applications in space technology"

Wish the writer and editor of Hindu had presence of mind to at least write one sentence on where and why is Helium used in Space, to explain the top bullet

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Postby Anujan » 12 May 2008 03:21

Arun_S wrote:

"Helium has crucial applications in space technology"

Wish the writer and editor of Hindu had presence of mind to at least write one sentence on where and why is Helium used in Space, to explain the top bullet

Satellite launch based on helium balloons maybe :P AFAIK - Helium is used in two space based applications.
(a) Leak detection. Fill tank or space suit or anything that should not be leaking, with helium, which due to high rate of diffusion, will diffuse through leaks in seals etc if any. This is detected by spectroscopy : which my friends I can assure you is not as simple as it sounds - trust me :P

(b) Magnetometers which use zeeman effect. Helium's lowest triplet bands split in the presence of magnetic field and the distance between the split bands give an idea of the strength of magnetic field. Used for surveying magnetic fields at various locations on earth.

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Postby Arun_S » 12 May 2008 05:18

lakshmic wrote:
Arun_S wrote:

"Helium has crucial applications in space technology"

Wish the writer and editor of Hindu had presence of mind to at least write one sentence on where and why is Helium used in Space, to explain the top bullet

Satellite launch based on helium balloons maybe :P AFAIK - Helium is used in two space based applications.
(a) Leak detection. Fill tank or space suit or anything that should not be leaking, with helium, which due to high rate of diffusion, will diffuse through leaks in seals etc if any. This is detected by spectroscopy : which my friends I can assure you is not as simple as it sounds - trust me :P

(b) Magnetometers which use zeeman effect. Helium's lowest triplet bands split in the presence of magnetic field and the distance between the split bands give an idea of the strength of magnetic field. Used for surveying magnetic fields at various locations on earth.

Humm I did not know the second one. Learnt something new.-Thanks.

Largest consumption of Helium is in gas pressurization of liquid fuel rocket stage. If you recall the spherical titianium bottles on Satellites and PS4 stage that is most visible during assembly photographs. These liquid engine have no mechanical compressor and the engine works off fuel that is injected at very high pressure maintained by titanium tank with Helium at V high pressure.

The PS40 compressor fed liquid engine also use pressurized helium for fuel tank pressurization during flight.

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Postby Nayak » 12 May 2008 10:26

Space Jingle

[quote]
Huma Siddiqui
Posted online: Monday , May 12, 2008 at 2341 hrs IST

You can call it Indian Space Research Organisation’s (ISRO) boldest step in space. World can now let India launch its spacecraft. We have the launch capability to put all types of satellites—military, communications and broadcasting or weathermonitoring—safely into the orbit on board the polar satellite launch vehicle (PSLV) and geosynchronous launch vehicle (GSLV). And this could be done 60-70% cheaper in costs as compared to Russia, the US, China and European countries. That’s not all. Our space scientists can also design, build, fabricate and test complete satellites with various payloads according to the user requirements.

As India shook the global space community with its 10-satellite launch in one go on board its PSLV and competing nations in the $2.5 billion commercial satellite business looked in awe, the message was loud and clear. Blast-offs are no longer restricted to testing the capabilities of satellite launch vehicles; they are for generating profits and making fast-bucks in the commercial satellite launch market expected to grow rapidly over the next several years. “It is a feat even NASA has not been able to accomplish,â€

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Postby Arun_S » 12 May 2008 13:06

Good article. As always from Ms. Huma Siddiqui.

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Postby Avinash R » 15 May 2008 10:52

China asks ISRO, others for quake-related satellite images
Wednesday, May 14, 2008
Beijing

China has asked space agencies across the world including the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) for help in obtaining quake-related satellite data, for aiding relief operations in the country.

China's disaster relief authority has sought domestic and international help in getting quake-related data collected by satellites, the state media reported.

As it launched all out efforts to grapple with the impact of the devastating earthquake, the State Disaster Relief Commission (SDRC), a member of the International Charter "Space and Major Disaster", has sent out a request for satellite data to Charter members, including ISRO.

The other members are the European Space Agency, the United States Geological Survey, the Canadian Space Agency and the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, official Xinhua news agency said.

Japan responded first by providing satellite images of the area hit by the earthquake of 7.8 magnitude that wrought havoc in Sichuan province killing thousands and leaving several thousand more trapped or buried.

Japan's satellite data contained the first large-scale images of the quake-affected areas from space, official Xinhua news agency said.

China joined the International Charter "Space and Major Disaster" in May last year. The Charter, using members' satellites, provides a unified system of space data acquisition and delivery to those affected by disasters to help in relief efforts.

SDRC has also sought the data from commercial high-definition satellites used by China's domestic operators.

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Postby arun » 15 May 2008 11:30

X Post.

Xinhua report on China's request of satellite imagery from ISRO :

China asks for int'l, domestic help in disaster monitoring from space

.... The State Disaster Relief Commission (SDRC), a member of the International Charter "Space and Major Disaster", asked on Tuesday for satellite data about Monday's quake.

The request went out to charter members - the European Space Agency, The United States Geological Survey, the Canadian Space Agency, the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, and the Indian Space Research Organisation ....

LINK


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Postby Shankar » 15 May 2008 11:58

[quote]Helium has crucial applications in space technology, cryogenics (low temperature physics), nuclear reactors and a host of high end technologies due to its unique physical properties. Helium is crucial for safe diving operations, a critical routine activity in the ONGC’s offshore operations,â€

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Postby sauravjha » 15 May 2008 12:10

self deleted
Last edited by sauravjha on 15 May 2008 12:41, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby gopal.suri » 15 May 2008 12:17

Its commercially avaliable. That data is open source. Atleast we know that Injun satellites can spy on em.

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Postby sauravjha » 15 May 2008 12:43

yeah, you are right. it is an acknowledgment of Indian capabilities...

nice article in the Hindu
http://www.thehindu.com/2008/04/28/stor ... 471000.htm

In 2011-12, Cartosat-3 could go into the orbit. The panchromatic camera on this satellite is expected to provide images with a resolution of 30 cm. Currently, the American WorldView-1 satellite launched in September last year offers the highest resolution imageries that are commercially available and the resolution of those images is 50 cm. WorldView-2, which will be launched next year, will provide images with a resolution of 46 cm.

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Postby SaiK » 15 May 2008 17:59

Avinash R wrote:
China asks ISRO, others for quake-related satellite images

SDRC has also sought the data from commercial high-definition satellites used by China's domestic operators.


I am surprised at China asking India space image.. care must be taken about what resolution we provide, and perhaps we should give them only those that help for the purpose of quake demographics, and that centers around the fault lines.

Anything that supports to the cause of building giamongous dams that brought the quake must be supported by our images.

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Helium

Postby prao » 15 May 2008 19:26

[quote="Shankar"][quote]Helium has crucial applications in space technology, cryogenics (low temperature physics), nuclear reactors and a host of high end technologies due to its unique physical properties. Helium is crucial for safe diving operations, a critical routine activity in the ONGC’s offshore operations,â€

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Postby Shankar » 16 May 2008 11:58

A bit of trivia: The US as the world's major major helium producer (>80%) has never hesitated to use its clout. Before the 2nd world war they refused to sell helium to Germany and so Germany had to use hydrogen for that magnificient airship The Hindenburg. The results were seen in New Jersey, USA not long after when the Hindenburg went down in flames just before landing.


yeah US has a natural advantage of old gas wells which has comparatively high helium content .Most of indian natural gas wells are comparitively 'new' and hence not rich in helium content .

By the way While the German airship did burn because of hydrogen it contained the fire did not start because of hydrogen it was due to the fabric used make the balloon which initiated the fire .At that time this fact was not known and consequently world went damn scared on hydrogen use for half a century

I
'd read not too long ago that by some estimates the world has only 8-10 years of helium reserves left. Pretty much the only source of helium is Natural gas. Any helium in the air escapes into space.


That is the stated case for helium price rise in recent times -no one is sure As in our country the enormous gas reserve found in KG basin may also allow recovery of significant quantity of helium at a later date.Was talking to some reliance engineers who said that that part of extracting helium from natural gas project is still not being considered but may be at a later date .Extraction of helium from natural gas becomes easier after liquification of natural gas or when LNG is produced from natural gas .The volume to be handled reduces and the residual gas becomes richer in helium which cannot be liquified in a natural gas liquifier because of much lower boiling point of helium

In future maybe maybe the tokamak type fusion reactors once in commercial use will produce substantial quantity of helium by controlled fusion of hydrogen atoms but then again this is long way down the future .

Production permitting India should examine the possibility of using Helium in airships for long loitering airborne early warning systems, particularly in peacetime.


I think the aeostats that we have already use helium . Problem with helium is leakage and cost .Because of its low molicular weight and difficult to detect by colour or odour all helium gas systems unless having very good leak tightness loose a big part of the contained gas over a period of time .

Compared to that hydrogen gas is much cheaper and any hydrogen leakage is easier to detect with low flame type detectors . Except in close confines for day to day ballon type use hydrogen may be cheaper and prefered as long as we dont have a proven large helium gas reserve


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