Let us Understand the Chinese

[bala]

My point is don't pretend to be an expert and spread wrong information if you don't know.

Oh, you pretend to be an expert. What are your credentials, are you a professor or scholar in China. How do we know what you are saying has any validity. Mind you, we are not interested in folk lore and hearsay or one-sided opinions. People on the forum have dealt with lots of ethnic groups personally. I have, being in the US. One chinese friend has described the Chinese are like jews (though i object to such caricature) of the east, more interested in making money and the rest be screwed, including morals. They certainly display a greedy streak and push and shove others out of their way. The Chinese from mainland are still brainwashed with false information and hostile to other chinese from Malaysia, HongKong and Taiwan. They openly look down on others like philiphinos, vietnamese, laotians, cambodians and thai people.

Then you turn around and say the following:

You are right, we don't want to hear bad about China. But there are reasons.

First and foremost China's handling of Tibet (your own minorities) leaves much to be desired about Chinese leadership and the goon/thug behavior of CCCP/PLA. Bad things, you create them and then turn around to say with temerity that you don't want to hear about them. Please peddle your potion elsewhere.

[Suraj]

Folks, it would really help to consider what it is we're trying to achieve with this thread. I've read or participated in a number of threads that descended into flamewars, since most PLAbots have low stress thresholds and go postal.

*However*, for a moment consider the merits of not piling up on the minutae of a Chinese poster who happens to participate here.

You may not agree with much at all about what (s)he posts, but that is besides the point.

The idea is to understand how they think, with minimal interference in doing so.

Provide just sufficient stimulus, see the response, and understand it.

Don't pile upon them and drive them away. It serves little purpose as far as the intention of this thread is concerned. This thread is not about responding to them about Tibet, nukes, communism etc.

[Rahul M]

First of all let us go back to try and analyse the chinese as a politico-cultural entity, not just the PRC.

To understand a race, find how they treat the weak:
watch video :
http://www.peta.org/feat/ChineseFurFarms/index.asp


The initial posts were very educative. Plz continue on the same vein.


Surinder, I don't know what you liked in the art of war, but I found it to be grossly dissapointing. The dictums are too general and extremely simplistic in nature. Its mostly like "attack when you are strong and your enemy is weak". Absolutely no specifics at all. ANY avg. politician can come up with a better set of rules.
I personally consider it to be the most over-hyped book in this field.
After conducting a survey of ancient to medieval books on strategy and statecraft, I must say it was the worst.

Especially after reading arthashastra, it felt like schoolboy stuff.


Regarding arthashastra, surinder get the penguin classics version which is translated by L.N Rangarajan. It is the best around and fascinating to boot.

The case studies in the chapter on diplomacy is simply mind-blowing.

Sorry for the OT post. Wont happen again.

[surinder]

Surinder, I don't know what you liked in the art of war, but I found it to be grossly dissapointing. The dictums are too general and extremely simplistic in nature. Its mostly like "attack when you are strong and your enemy is weak". Absolutely no specifics at all. ANY avg. politician can come up with a better set of rules.
I personally consider it to be the most over-hyped book in this field.
After conducting a survey of ancient to medieval books on strategy and statecraft, I must say it was the worst.

Especially after reading arthashastra, it felt like schoolboy stuff.


Regarding arthashastra, surinder get the penguin classics version which is translated by L.N Rangarajan. It is the best around and fascinating to boot.

The case studies in the chapter on diplomacy is simply mind-blowing.

Sorry for the OT post. Wont happen again.

It is not OT. Thanks for the reference to the Arthashastra.

I did not say I liked it the Art of War, I merely was fascinated. There are two things that struck me when I read it: First, the cold-blooded amoral tone of the book was hard to miss. There is no mention of Dharma etc. Indian books are obsessed with Dharma. Second: presence of a book indicates a society that thinks about War and the science/art of it. Mao apparently read it with relish. I wish Nehru etc. had read an equivalent book----the only book they read was the art of non-violence world-peace books. I beleive that AOW is taught in Indian Military Academy.

[hnair]

The Eastern books (Art of War, Five Rings etc) needs to be translated by an ABCA (Ameriki Born Confused Asian) who has intellectuals as parents. Such a person can hope to get a good perspective from his/her education and retell the ideas their parents bequeathed them.

Most of the western translations are otherwise a treasure trove for fortune cookie manufacturers and Hongkong movie dubbing artists of Hollywood.

Second, what's your feeling when you hear this?
Merkel blames India for rising food prices not BioFuel.
http://www.reuters.com/article/environm ... 3520080417
If you feel angry, you should understand our feelings. There are far more biased news on China. Do we Chinese have the right to feel angry on such kind of news?

yx, regarding the Merkel comment, I consider it a great honor that our increased food intake is considered important enough for the west to stop and think of their own excesses. One day the west will thank us for reducing their cholesterol. But before that, you should start making fun of the west, or they will never think and change their ways.

We read Gandhi and Vivekananda's comments on the west to know why they were treated with respect (not admired) in the west even now. The west does not cower if you express your anguish by raising your voice. For they believe they are better equipped than you to deal with that scenario

Here is something to start off on how to deal with the west by one of our more funner guys.....

[Mahendra]

Nair sir, that was a ROFL video, thanks

[Gaurav_S]

Found this interesting piece of article on ToI which will help us understand China in better manner(and also communists). Posting in full.

A nation is as strong as its people. Bombs and other military hardware help to keep the morale high and give a wining-edge feeling, but ultimately it's the human material that wins or loses. The weak make a huge list of complaints and the powerful act at a cool pace. Machines and nuclear buttons do not operate on their own, but need human instructions and remain captive in the hands of those who man their safety. And the brave would hardly feel the need to re-do a Hiroshima while the compromising variety would never have the courage to enter the nuclear war room. So how should India, shining so brightly on the global scene because of the brilliance and knowledge of her children, look at China, a powerful neighbour whose trustworthiness has always been suspect in Indian minds?

We and China were unshackled some time. They were known the world over as opium eaters and lazy. Today they are the best in sports, world champions in more than 32 disciplines and a globally recognised military and economic superpower. Almost every Indian, African, European and American home has something that's made in China. A strong sense of nationalism and an uncompromising patriotism is reigning over their national resurgence. This, they still chose to call as Communism, post-Mao.

Today they are among the highest consumers of green vegetables and run professional universities and science institutions, have established close ties with Pakistan, encircled India quite deftly and have left Indian intellectuals and defence experts to write books on how powerfully China has become. Who is to be blamed for this situation? Of late the Chinese have started respecting Indians because of our steady economic growth rate touching 8-9 per cent annually and growing military strength. Agni-III's successful launch has reinforced this. Like any other country, China too will listen to us only when we are seen as a strong, nationalist power, which unfortunately has been a low priority since the government on Communist crutches took over at South Block.

There are two sweet looking traps on our China path. Leftists and their blood brothers Islamo-fascists would like Delhi to be blindly anti-America and align with ideological comrades in Beijing. The second is going into the American camp to denounce China on every count and let Indian soil be used for a US game of isolating China in a region that's legitimately ours. Both should be avoided and India must look at China from an Indian perspective. India must look at China on its own terms, not as a hedge against America or as an ideological tool for attacking America. Similarly, India needs to see the Islamic supremacists for what they are – a danger to India and not a friend just because of their hatred for America.

As far as the follies of the Indian leaders in understanding and evaluating Chinese intentions properly, the less said the better.

Since the 1950s, the Jan Sangh cautioned Nehru's government that China is eyeing India territory, it has gobbled up Tibet, Tibet's autonomy is crucial to India's security (read Vajpayee's speeches and Sardar Patel's letter to Nehru), China is making roads on Indian borders, beware of the Communists, etc. All of this fell on deaf ears and we have been left with no choice but to hang certificates from western countries singing paeans to our great entrepreneurship, Laxmi Mittal and Tata's worldwide empire and the growing knowledge surge that we use to hide the ever-increasing number of poor, the farmers and un-attended rural sector. Our entire world view of sports and glory on the field has shrunk to cricket and cheerleaders, that too imported from the Gora Lands to shake their hips. We are surrounded by failed states and hardly any neighbour respects us. An outfit like the Bangladesh Rifles brings our dead soldiers tied upside down on a bamboo pole and we turn our face away.

A government that survives on the support of the Communists can hardly be expected to face an expansionist neighbour which refuses to issue visas to our Arunachali residents.

Indian Communists – China's assets

China's biggest asset threatening India is not its nuclear arsenal or economic superiority, but Indian Communists. Beijing doesn't need to do anything else in India but ensure that Indian Communists remain important players in Indian politics. They have been the biggest supporters of China's presence in India – just a few months ago they demanded that Chinese companies be allowed to invest in Indian ports and bring in hundreds of Chinese workers and engineers which the government refused on security grounds. If this is so in 2008, the other side of the same coin is that the same Communists had sided with China during the 1962 war. While the entire nation stood united against the aggressors, the only exception was the Communist Party of India (CPI,-then unified) which refused to condemn Chinese aggression. Finally Pandit Nehru had to arrest hundreds of CPI leaders and workers under charges of sedition. And see the parallel too.

1962 – Communists arrested, RSS honoured

The same Nehru government invited Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS) workers to join the 1963 Republic Day parade in full RSS uniform in honour of their patriotic work during the war. There are two very interesting episodes that describe Communist attitude during the Sixties. Blitz under Karanjia was a darling of the Indian left and it published the following news item in its August 31, 1960 issue: “In upper Garhwal, there are two villages - Chanyee and Thanyee. The Communists have gone round to tell people that the area belongs to China because the names of the villages sound like Chineseâ€

[Brando]

Folks, it would really help to consider what it is we're trying to achieve with this thread. I've read or participated in a number of threads that descended into flamewars, since most PLAbots have low stress thresholds and go postal.

I think what you say is very true. Good and earnest dialogue is good even if we dont agree with it.


On a side note about the whole Art of War discussion, I must confess that I have not read Arthasastra nor other Indian classical texts but I have read the art of War and the book of Five rings. To me personally the Art of War was a quite interesting and enlightening . I agree that according to our Indian rules of war its precepts are completely amoral and could be seen as cowardly and barbaric but in a realistic sense they make a lot of sense. I would also disagree with the poster who says that the book is very general and lacks specifics. Sun Tzu gives a lot of specifics on how and when to attack, retreat and defend. For example, there are chapters on waging war in the mountains, in the plains, near river etc. I remember one particular part where he says that when defending against an enemy that is approaching from beyond a river, the best place to engage the enemy would be when the enemy reaches your bank of the river instead of while they ford the river.
Such things are specifics I would say. And to the ancient generals would have been quite usefull as well.
Besides, the very fact that all major military universities in the world refer to Sun Tzu's Art of War is vindication itself that it indeed has some wisdom in its pages.

Similarly the Book of the Five rings is not so much a manual on Kenjitsu but rather a guide to the spirit required to excel in Bushido. The difference between this and the former book is very different. The Art of war is more practical and straightforward where as the Book of Five Rings is more philosophical.

Edit: I'm sorry if this is a digression but I wanted to provide a more balanced understanding.

[Brando]

First, Did you ever hear anything good about Chinese government?

Your presumption that Indians have only negative things to say about the Chinese government is a wrong perception. I know a LOT of Indians who would openly acknowledge that the Chinese Communist Government has done a great deal to bring prosperity, stability and uplift million of Chinese people economically. And they deserve credit for it, even the Dalai Lama - you most villainous enemy admits this.

But you see they have done so at a terrible price. That is also something that Indians will openly admit and something which most Chinese cannot stomach. In Indian newspapers and News tv there are many many articles and programs about the rise of the Chinese economy and the growth rates and the lessons that can be learnt from it for India. To totally vilify a nation is absurd and for Indians that honor is only reserved for our esteemed neighbor to the west but even that is now decreasing.

You cannot say that just because we are critical of you we have nothing good to say either even though you might hear the good less often than the bad.

Second, what's your feeling when you hear this?
Merkel blames India for rising food prices not BioFuel.
http://www.reuters.com/article/environm ... 3520080417
If you feel angry, you should understand our feelings. There are far more biased news on China. Do we Chinese have the right to feel angry on such kind of news?

The Chinese have a right to be angry but often your response is disproportional and absurd compared to the way Indians would react to similar stories. This story of India being responsible for growing food prices upset many Indians but unlike the Chinese response in India there was no massive anti-west propaganda campaign or accusations of a rampant anti-India campaign being waged by the west. These stories were discussed in the media extensively with the facts laid bare to reveal the truth behind these accusations. And realistically speaking, I am sure most Indians are aware that as more people become wealthy in India they will consume more resources, naturally. However in China when they face criticism they usually respond with hate and allegations of bias. When instead they should meet those criticism head on and challenge their accusers with the facts - something rarely done.

[Stan_Savljevic]

There is this notion of "losing face" or "feeling ashamed" that is very common to Oriental societies. Very different in form from our (Indic) notions of shame.

Let me narrate an instance that I happened to come across that literally made me stand up and take notice. Have seen a Korean student come all the way from a mid-major (say US news rank 20) grad school up south to say, a top 5 school, transfering all his credits, shifting his domicile, pissing off his advisor back there, and generally speaking creating too much CV damage in the process etc. And to boot, the guy he came to work with was no bigger than the guy back there. Upon seeing this, my curiosity deep, I probed for a justification for the move. Initially, there was a I like the field here etc etc. And knowing both guys (personally as well as academically) too well, I was nt convinced. And more probing/nibbling later, the guy had a simple answer: "I have to go back to Samsung more or less for sure. Where I do a PhD will determine my role in the hierarchy right through retirement....."

And coming to Samsung, a hearsay. Chucking out unproductive people is seen as a severe loss of face for the guy chucked out, and the manager who has to tell it. If there are no furriners at the manager level at Daejon or Incheon or wherever, there is this novel method that has been perfected over the ages: Just assign the guy some extremely chottawaala kaam, esp for being so high in the seniority chain. A cpl of such assignments later, the message is clear, and the guy usually resigns. If he still persists, they shift his room to something like the one next to the toilet or far away from the "action zone" (the last room in the corner etc) and usually, that gets the message across. Weird.

The point is, I have noticed the same shite in different forms with the Chinese and japanese students. A good stick to beat them with, sooner or later, we will need it. When out of anger, I sometimes mock a spitting move in public in front of them, it is seen as something like the worst gaali ever said. I did that to a Japanese neighbor outside his door cos he was making a mess of the common kitchen even after repeated instructions. I knew it was supposed to be a deep insult, and yes, it was taken just like I thought.

OT: If you want to provoke deep feelings in a Venezuelan, just turn the conversation to Pax Americana, and how the American Indians have been decimated. Been there, done that.

[shiv]

Why worry about the bad things that other nations say?.

We have to. China is not isolated nation, we need to do business with others. If they only talk bad things in China, their people will hate China and Chinese. I am a Chinese, I don't want others to hate me.

Good. I like this answer. this is something that Indians need to learn. But Indians feel inferior because of a colonize mind. Chinese do not seem to have so much of a colonized mind.

Why worry about shootings in the US

We have to. Because they labeled this killer as a Chinese, and used him to prove that Chinese have a twisted mind. He is just an isolated example, nothing to with the rest Chinese or Korean. But if he were a Chinese, the story is different.

This was done to India before independence and before Indians had a chance to react and say their viewpoint. India is in a situation where it is gaining new acceptance after having been considered a country of people with weird habits which cannot survive.

Btw, I have two questions for you.

First, Did you ever hear anything good about Chinese government?

Second, what's your feeling when you hear this?
Merkel blames India for rising food prices not BioFuel.
http://www.reuters.com/article/environm ... 3520080417
If you feel angry, you should understand our feelings. There are far more biased news on China. Do we Chinese have the right to feel angry on such kind of news?

I have never heard anything good about the Chinese government from the West. However Indians have often wished that someone in India would use the same methods that the Chinese used to bring about change. But most Indians do not accept communist methods - even India's communists who are suspected to be slaves of the Government of China are only pseudo-communists whom we believe are trying to earn praise from Beijing.

But while Indians admire China's resolve, development and practice but disagree with communism that will not work in India, Indians also see the Chinese making bad mistakes that we believe China will pay for in due course.

One such mistake is the widespread killing of intellectuals and re education during the cultural revolution. the other is the coercive one-child policy - which China will regret. In the medium-long term this policy will damage China IMO because it is a social experiment with no parallel. Nobody knows how these children from one-chile families will behave when they are ruling China. Their rule may not be bad, but one-child families in countries were more than one child is allowed show that single children can be spoiled rotten and may not have what is needed to cooperate and share.

In the 1970s it was said that India;s population would have overtaken that of China by 2010. That is unlikely to happen. China is facing its own new social issues because of its one child policy - and I am not seeing any sociological studies or psychological studies that compare one-chile family societies with more traditional societies. In other words - is China studying itself? Or are authorities assuming that all is well? Where are the studies?

Merkel blaming India makes me laugh. There an old saying "The bigger your (male) organ the more the woman screams". These statements are the screams of someone feeling an organ that is getting bigger. Their blame and rants are hardly going to stop us. from eating.

[manoba]

A very interesting Coast-to-Coast programme on "China Threat" [Audio: 1hr19]

China Treat

Ralph Sawyer, expert in traditional and contemporary Chinese military issues, discusses the importance of tactical principles and paradigm battles in our current geopolitical climate, with host George Noory.

Mano

[Shankar]

yx wrote:

Why worry about the bad things that other nations say?.

We have to. China is not isolated nation, we need to do business with others. If they only talk bad things in China, their people will hate China and Chinese. I am a Chinese, I don't want others to hate me.

YX - I dont think any one hates China

They may be jealous ,they may be scared,they may not understand but surely hatred is not the underlying emotion

I have been to china a number of times and work with them on a daily basis and have quite few Chinese some of whom came to India after I invited them to our country

As for me I was out and out impressed by the development of peoples republic of china

In fact did write out detailed report on the visit in this forum for others to get current with what stage of development china is today

From Beijing to Nanjing to Shanghai to Changzou to Honk kong everywhere Chinese people to me to their hearts ,they wanted to know more and more about India ,its political system ,about our standard of living and of course how we do business .

They took me to their homes and fancy eateries with really exotic food items not available everywhere

I walked the streets of cities and small towns even after midnight and no one ever mugged me or no police men ever questioned me or even checked my identity .The same thing surely did not happen in united states .

I made firends with ordinary chinese people wherever I went from the 6 year old girl in Beijing zoo who wanted me to lift her up for a better look at the white tigers ,or the mother of a young boy who absentmindedly
was walking into the main road in front of me and did pull him off rather sharply .The way she thanked me in her own language and the smile shall treasure forever ,or for that matter the PLA soldier who allowed me free entrance to military museum and also a photo near the DF2 missile,the lady in shanghai who treated me to many cups of very expensive green teas free ,my engineer friends who took me to the local night clubs and restaurants and always insisted on paying my share ,some of them came over to my factory next year and went all over India with me .

Where do you see hatred - the understanding is just shaping up -1962 is a black mark and once that national humiliation is forgotten -India -China will compete and rule the world together

[Mahendra]

[Where do you see hatred - the understanding is just shaping up -1962 is a black mark and once that national humiliation is forgotten -India -China will compete and rule the world together

Shankar

The national humiliation cannot and should not be forgotten, it should be avenged. It is surprising that most Indians are not aware that the Indian army gave the PLA goons a bloody nose in 1967. There are certain forces at work which like to keep things supressed.
Anyway, you cannot rule the world together when your partner illegally keeps holding on to your land and keeps arming your sworn enemy. China has ensured that we can never be friends by arming the rabid pigs to our west with Nukes. Despite all this if you think we can be friends then you are incredibly naive or you have an agenda.
Are the Chinese nice people?... maybe Does the Chinese government represent its people? NO. Do the Chinese people protest about the irresponsible proliferation of Nukes by their government? NO DO they even care? by the looks of it NO!.
Just a few chai-biskoot sessions are enough for you to conclude that the citizens of both countries are in love with each other.
We can do business with them, just like the Japanese do but we can never be friends unless they give back(/we take back) our land, give up all claims and disarm pigland OR we give a few Dozen Agnis to Taiwan and Vietnam albeit under a different name (Big Dong..perhaps).

The chinese deserve credit for their enormous achievements in the economic field but that doesnt mean we bend over to please them and be their partners in unequal terms. Thankfully, the Indian army doesnt think like some on this forum.

[sauravjha]

Why worry about the bad things that other nations say?.

My dear friend, the PRC is the one who is excessively bothered about "saving face". that is why the need to have showpiece maglevs and "olympic games" . Today, China is trying to look like the USSR with the the capitalist veneer of the west . Basically, it is positing itself as a country that "offers the best of both worlds". unfortunately neither the erstwhile USSR nor the USA are hardly what may be termed as role models.


Because if truth be told, every nation and civilisation has a different verse . It need not "aspire" to be like somebody else. this is precisely where the hypocrisy of modern day china lies. while at the drop of a hat , you will bring your "ancient civilisation" talk, the fact is your people , especially your urban population, are far away from the principles of confucianism et al. Your urban centres increasingly resemble post-communist , nouveau rich upwardly mobile areas. This is admittedly becoming commonplace in our country as well. but at least India still has some dharma (which you have forsaken in the guise of modernity). Whether it be your palate or your current way of life , China shows scant respect for nature or for the environment or for the poor.

And let me give you an example of how wannabe a section of the chinese state has become.

In the recent Indo-China joint exercises , PRC troops wore "snazzy helmets(PASGT) type and new camouflage , which "looked more slick'.

you put on display the new QBZ-95 which has a bull-up configuration and looks "more Modern" . But I daresay (if reports of its deployment, are anything to go by) that it is less "battle-proven" than our INSAS series.


The "new equipment" put on show was clearly tailored to give the impression that the PLA is now as slick as any western outfit and by that extension as effective,



even the hand signals used by PLA operatives, their mode of "crouching" while on patrol, and numerous other body language, showed that the exercise was crafted down to the smallest detail for the consumption of the media. For all the money in the world, the PLA drill resembled a SWAT team from LA.
clearly the aim was to show that the PLA is no longer a peasant army and has "arrived" in the western sense. thereby proving that even for the PLA the west is the pinnacle of modernity and must be emulated right down to the hand signals, at least while on display.

Talk about not caring about what others think of you.

[asprinzl]

I think this thread should be in the "Strategic? section instead of in the "military" section.

Also, understanding China should be focused. Why China does this? Does that? What compels her? How she is doing it? Etc etc etc. I always wanted to see China and India cooperating in strategic issues as equals. If today it happens, tomorrow the tsunami of such a cooperation would sweep over the world.

The problem is that China does not see India as its equal and behaves towards India with contempt. It is a natural action. And India is not an entity that is equal to China. It has nothing to do with China but in Delhi. As long as Indian leaders hold the country from becoming equal to China, China will continue doing whatever she is now doing and get away with it.

China is not doing anything out of ordinary. She is doing just any country in her position would do with the exception of India. I think Indian leaders are too focused on the shennanigans of the politicking in and around Delhi that they could not see too far beyond. How long the Maoists, the Jihadists and assorted others have been "messing" around and what has been the efforts to counter these elements?

Look at the politicking that is going around. Can there be one week or month in India without politicking? This political chess game is being played everyday. There has to a period where national issues take precedent.

Why not have one common election date every four years? Why have this system where horse trading takes place everyday in attempt to bring down the ruling government? Why is it that a ruling political party has the power to call for elecitons when they see fit? This British style political set up requires year round politicking. This is a major distraction. India needs a major major major political reform. This nation is too big and too populated with way too many conflicting and competing interests and way too many cultures to get bogged down in British style government. India needs one fixed date where people elect their reps every four years for the local, regional and national bodies.

Today an election in TN, tomorrow in Andra, next month in Jharkand, in six months in Goa, and early next year in Maharastra is not good. Until this political mess is put in order Indian leaders will be too preoccupied to be concerned with other real problems.

The current Indian succes in the economic field is not due to the government but despite the government.
Avram

[Lalmohan]

There are many aspects of Chinese culture that Indians can relate to and enjoy - from literature, cinema, fashions, (perhaps not music!), food (definitely!) and ofcourse a sense of 'asian values and principles'. So, I don't think the question of blanket hatred of China amongst Indians ever really arises. Certainly from a personal perspective, my interactions with mainland (and other) Chinese has always been very pleasureable.

Indians and Chinese may even aspire to the same sense of personal freedoms and rights, but certainly one system does not allow them in the same way as the other. Perhaps never has. There on the differences begin.

At a strategic level, Mao or someone similar said something like India and China are two tigers in the same forest and that cannot persist for long. Mao clearly wanted China to be the alpha male. I wonder if modern Chinese leaders are more ameanable to a multi-polar world? Certainly the post Nehruvian India is not willing to be a subservient male, but also, does not necesarrily wish to be the dominant alpha by killing the other alpha. This is perhaps something that Chinese thinking cannot absorb easily, but is perfectly reasonable to an Indian mind?

[g.sarkar]

I, per chance, stumbled on to some websites since I wanted to understand the Chinese mind set.
I though I should share the same with you and get a better perspective.

RayC-babu, I agree completely. India should try to understand the culture and the society of the Chinese. And why only the Chinise? we should learn more of all our neighbours, whith whom we are destined to spend eternity together. For example, we should try to know more about Myanmar and Central Asia. More efforts should be made in our universities so that we can produce experts that speak the language and know the culture. The only effort to know China was made by Tagore's university, when he established Cheena Bhavan and engaged a Chinese professor to teach. But that was a different China and it was coloured by idealism, and may have even produced people that got us the Hindi-Cheeni bhai-bhai debacle years later. We need cold realism in our studies of our neighbours. In this respect Israel is the model. It has a complete picture of the developments that are going on in the Arab world at all times. But this will require require a complete change in our world view. We spend too much time analysing the West, and among our neighbours, we waste all our time with Pakistan. Even in BR this is the case. Due to language barriers and barriers in our mind, much more effort is required to understand China. As usual our leaders have other more important things in their horizon.
Gautam

[G Subramaniam]

Chinese behavior patterns in the west

*There is widespread running of 'Asian Massage Parlors'

In India, women do this due to extreme poverty. Chinese in the west do it simply as another way to make money
Heck they even run massage parlors in TSP, leading to Lal Masjid incident

*The desperate urge to get a white boyfriend
I have seen chinese college graduates shack up with middle aged white truck drivers

[sauravjha]

At a strategic level, Mao or someone similar said something like India and China are two tigers in the same forest and that cannot persist for long. Mao clearly wanted China to be the alpha male

.

one great chinese leader, also remarked while talking to Kissinger,

"America was the eagle, Russia the bear , China the dragon and India the cow."

If ever India is to become "pals" with China , it will be when India matches or surpasses China in overall national power. till such time the image conscious chinese junta will continue to hobnob with the west and prick us through their proxies. Basically, the idea is to show that it is autocratic China and not tolerant India which can be the beacon of the world.
they'll mouth sweet nothings when they need to and talk about multi-polar blah blah , but will continue to fund "infotainment channels" that will suddenly discover that everything from cruise missiles to chess was first invented in China.


Once India stands on its feet , our chinese birathers will be forced to change and one day maybe true Asian solidarity can be achieved.
However it won't happen under a mammon-worshipping commie regime that panders to the yuppie need for grand prixs , swanky airports , maglevs, fast food, land grab etc.

just check the "official " figures for the number of "violent demonstrations" that broke out in the rust belt .

[ParGha]

On Sun Tzu and Indian Literature on Warfare

surinder: I did not say I liked it the Art of War, I merely was fascinated. There are two things that struck me when I read it: First, the cold-blooded amoral tone of the book was hard to miss. There is no mention of Dharma etc. Indian books are obsessed with Dharma. Second: presence of a book indicates a society that thinks about War and the science/art of it. Mao apparently read it with relish. I wish Nehru etc. had read an equivalent book----the only book they read was the art of non-violence world-peace books. I beleive that AOW is taught in Indian Military Academy.

Arthashatra has almost nothing to do with dharma, as the root word artha would indicate. Dharma is referenced only in the context that it is one of the worthy pursuits of mankind along with artha, kama etc. Yet I offer this as a note of caution: It is no more indicative of the general trend of "Indian books", as Bhagvad Gita - with its emphasis on dharma in battle - is mistakenly taken to be indicative of the same.

The contents of Sun Tzu's Art of War, on the other hand, suggests to me that it is being written for not one but many societies that would automatically be locked in better internal wars in absence of a strong Leviathan to exert civilizing force from the top-down. We know that among us even in the absence of a powerful centralized force (ex. Rashtrakutas or Parthiharas), the constituent smaller powers (ex. Rajput kingdoms) can mostly behave in somewhat chivalric or civilized manner between each other; that there is a unified society even when there is no unified polity. Reading Sun Tzu reminds us that it is not so with other peoples.

Brando: To me personally the Art of War was a quite interesting and enlightening . I agree that according to our Indian rules of war its precepts are completely amoral and could be seen as cowardly and barbaric but in a realistic sense they make a lot of sense. I would also disagree with the poster who says that the book is very general and lacks specifics. Sun Tzu gives a lot of specifics on how and when to attack, retreat and defend. For example, there are chapters on waging war in the mountains, in the plains, near river etc. I remember one particular part where he says that when defending against an enemy that is approaching from beyond a river, the best place to engage the enemy would be when the enemy reaches your bank of the river instead of while they ford the river.

You are confusing Sun Tzu with Sun Bin. It is a common mistake of many translations, depending on the era they pick it up from, to squish together two completely different authors. The former writes on military strategy, the latter advises operational details.

[ParGha]

On Chinese Symbolisms

For the sake of brevity, let me limit it to a single point I am trying to get to:

1. Dragon is traditionally the emperor's insignia; signifying rule through wisdom and intellect.

2. Phoenix is traditionally the empresses' insignia; its significance is expressed in mainly patronizing terms of a patriarchal society - virtue, propriety, duty etc. It can be ignored in the context of this discussion.

3. Tiger is traditionally the commander-in-chief's insignia; signifying rule through brute force and native cunning.

The dragon and the tiger are usually shown to be in constant struggle for supremacy; tiger sometimes get the upper hand, but the dragon always triumphs in their symbols.

Further down there are many common animals, some of which are represented just as they are represented elsewhere (ex. the Bull as a hardworking symbol) while others are shown in very unique and localized symbolism (ex. the Pig, which rarely ever gets respect outside Sinosphere - the wild Boar, being excepted).

What does it mean for India?

The casting of India as the "Tiger" to the outside world is NOT a conscious Chinese effort: Some Indians started doing it by themselves long before China ever came into the equation (ex. Tipu Sultan's Tiger Infantry that etched itself so deeply into Western psyche). It is however a convenient symbol for the Chinese to apply their above mentioned interpretation as self-designated "Sons of Dragon".

Personally I think that India has to break out of this symbolic circle (http://www.temptatts4u.com/TNT%20dragon ... inyang.jpg), with a more comprehensive and representative symbol of itself. The most obvious one would, of course, be the four Capital Lions that are already part of Indian symbolism; it would also be a refreshing break from the stereotyped "Asian Tiger" economies. Another alternative would be to break the paradigm completely: Scrap the thinly-disguised animistic national symbolisms of rest of the world and show yourself by the meaning of your national name - Bharat, the fire that has to be maintained by constant vigil. - JMT etc.

At a strategic level, Mao or someone similar said something like India and China are two tigers in the same forest and that cannot persist for long.

Mao repeated the old Chinese saying: One hill cannot hold two tigers. Tigers in China are different from Indian tigers in general, but especially different from the Indian forest tigers (Royal Bengal Tigers). The South Chinese tiger behavior is most close to the tigers found in southern parts of the Western Ghats; the Siberian tiger's social behavior of course has no analogous in India - except in the generalized terms of tiger behavior.

[ParGha]

one great chinese leader, also remarked while talking to Kissinger,

"America was the eagle, Russia the bear , China the dragon and India the cow."

The real Chinese Zodiacal view of different nations:
America = Monkey
Russia = Tiger
China = Dragon (of course)
India = Ox (alternatively and derogatorily Cow)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Zo ... ac_animals

(Click on the animals in listed in the box to see the countries associated with it by the Chinese).

[ramana]

ts so ironic to read headlines in ToI saying 'China specific missile is ready'. When our media will learn putting right headlines at right time. Sometimes it looks so lame.

TOI is no longer Indian. They speak for their massas. And massa has dictated to bring about a conflict between the two countries. The deal is dying so need to create new venues.

[vsudhir]

'In China we see something unprecedented-the emergence of a mature fascist state'

Michael Ledeen is among the more objective and balanced commentators on the US right. Read it all, interesting perspective, mussay. An excerpt:

If the fascist model is correct, we should not be at all surprised by the recent rhetoric or mass demonstrations. Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy were every bit as sensitive to any sign of foreign criticism as the Chinese today, both because victimhood is always part of the definition of such states, and because it's an essential technique of mass control. The violent denunciations of Westerners who criticize Chinese repression may not be a sign of internal anxiety or weakness. They may instead be a sign of strength, a demonstration of the regime's popularity. Remember that European fascism did not fall as the result of internal crisis--it took a bloody world war to bring it down. Fascism was so alarmingly popular neither Italians not Germans produced more than token resistance until the war began to be lost. It may well be that the mass condemnation of Western calls for greater political tolerance is in fact a sign of political success.

Since classical fascism had such a brief life span, it is hard to know whether or not a stable, durable fascist state is possible. Economically, the corporate state, of which the current Chinese system is a textbook example, may prove more flexible and adaptable than the rigid central planning that doomed communism in the Soviet Empire and elsewhere (although the travails of Japan, which also tried to combine capitalist enterprise with government guidance, show the kinds of problems China will likely face). Our brief experience with fascism makes it difficult to evaluate the possibilities of political evolution, and the People's Republic is full of secrets. But prudent strategists would do well to assume that the regime will be around for a while longer--perhaps a lot longer.

If it is a popular, fascist regime, should the world prepare for some difficult and dangerous confrontations with the People's Republic? Twentieth-century fascist states were very aggressive; Nazi Germany and fascist Italy were both expansionist nations. Is it not likely that China will similarly seek to enlarge its domain?

I believe the answer is "yes, but."

[svinayak]

http://www.goodmagazine.com/section/Fea ... ers_to_you

[quote]
Why China Matters #2
Because China will not be our biggest future enemy but our most important ally.
Words By Thomas P.M. Barnett

A significant portion of our national-security establishment wants desperately to cast China as an inevitable long-term threat. Why? Part of it is simply habit, as most who argue this line spent the bulk of their professional lives in the Cold War and just can’t imagine a world that doesn’t feature a superpower rivalry. For those who need to fill that hole, China is the best show in town, because its military buildup allows these hawks to argue that America must buy and maintain a huge, high-tech military force for potential large-scale war with the Chinese.

My counter is this: China’s military buildup is not historically odd. America did the same as it became a global economic power in the late decades of the 19th century. Remember Teddy Roosevelt and the Great White Fleet? It’s the same logic we see with China today.

But won't events put China and the United States at odds—say, over the strategic issues of fostering stability in the Persian Gulf? Hardly. Right now the United States imports only about one-tenth of the Persian Gulf’s oil exports, with the vast bulk heading east to Asia. Frankly, there’s no sense in the strategic equation “American blood (spilled) for Chinese oil (imports secured).â€

[ramana]

vsudhir, A great con is being put on all the innocent people. Fascist and Nazis are really the outgrowth of the 19th century evolution scientists clubbed with Evangelism and belief in literal interpretation of the Bible. Those two groups are "Evangelical Darwinists". So until the Chinese get evanjihadized, the Ledeen description cant be true. One cant be Marxist and Evangelized Darwinist"

[Avinash R]

^acharya had once posted an link which said that over 20 million chinese had converted. i hope he could post that link.

[Nayak]

I dont see why these chicoms need to be put on such a high pedestal.

I have read through the Art of War and it was ho hum.

My interactions here with the chinese has been pretty good. They are okay, not very smart and suffer from tremendous inferiority complex.

Giving them a firm kick on their backside is very much possible. You gotta see they way aspire to be 'white'

Indians can very easily put them on the defensive. We dont need to see a great idea behind every chinese sayings. Pardon me but who gives a **** about what Mao says ? Mao this and Mao that.

Indians and Chinese will never be friends. Lets accept that fact. I hope the 2 bit politicians have a long term plan on getting even for 62.

[Raja]

Oh really? The ones I have met tend to be very friendly and also brilliant at what they do. Good thing that we are not making generalizations based on the small number of people one person can interact with.. or are we?

[Nayak]

Depends. The ones I met in US were working for IBM, smart intelligent from the brightest universities of Cheen but you know what ? they were scared $hit of Indians. The phrase 'Indians are coming' gave a whole different meaning to the situation.

Most of the time they would keep asking questions about how many engineers does India produce, which are the top institutions, and how they wanted to visit Blore.

The current place I work for has above average Chinese (in IQ).

They are okay, but my guys in Blore would kick their a$$ anytime.

Again, lets us not give too much importance to the what the chicoms think of India. I would rather like the Indians to be gung-ho to kick their puny little butts rather than talk about all this useless hindi-chini bhai-chaara stuff.

[vina]

I dont see why these chicoms need to be put on such a high pedestal.

I have read through the Art of War and it was ho hum.

My interactions here with the chinese has been pretty good..

Nayakuddin.. If you are referring to Chicom drones vs the Straits Chinese and other normal chinese then you are talking about two basically different species.

Either way, I have lived in Singapore as well, and also socialized with tons of American Chinese of Taiwanese and Mainland origins, and of course Chinese FOB from mainland China.

They are usually quite friendly and nice, hardworking and all the rest of the nice things.. Most of them dont give a rat's musharraf about the commies and their politics. They are more focused on getting ahead in life and since for some funny reason, massa gives mainland chinese only a SINGLE ENTRY visa (unlike Injuns who get multiple entry), the Chinese never visit home and most of them dont even want to go back ever (could be changing lately though.. dont know).

Indians and Chinese will never be friends. Lets accept that fact. I hope the 2 bit politicians have a long term plan on getting even for 62.

Oh.. I dont know.. Tibet and Xingjiang are long term problems.. When China weakens for some reason, they will break away. I dont see too much of a trouble between India and China really. And of course at a personal level, lots of folks on BRF here have chinese friends (many even married to Chinese I am sure) .. Guess China and India are very different between Chinese and Indians.. people to people level (normal ones and not contrived CPM and CPC kind of friendships) things should be fine.

[Nayak]

Vina-gaaru, I agree but my point is lets us not give too much importance behind these chicom's sayings.

After all that cultural revolution cr@p all they are good is at copying stuff and manufacturing trinkets. The approach of rubbing their noses in the mud and kicking them in the nuts all the while muttering inane bhaichaara, sounds the best approach to me.

We dont need to be in awe of or be intimated by these numbnuts!!

[G Subramaniam]

I saw a survey about 1 year ago, that a Chinese woman making $60k / year
was willing to marry a white guy making $30k/year

[shiv]

This thread belongs in the other forum, and I shall be shifting it there now.

[enqyoobOLD]

The Big One hits Szechuan. Last time Szechaun got hit, they said only minor damage, and only 4 dead. They meant Poliburo members. Some 400,000,000,000 died.

This one is VERY bad - the death toll STARTS at 10,000-plus. That means that in a week it will become 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 using the western/ UN casualty toll inflation algorithm.

[shiv]

That means that in a week it will become 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 .

Oh - you mean it's almost the number of people raped and killed by Indians in Kashmir?

[bala]

Nayak I have to agree with you. This business of enamor is getting very stale. Why. The chicoms may have pulled ahead of India recently but for a very long time they were followers and still are, not leaders. This new mantra of let us learn from them makes me want to puke. What exactly can we learn from the Chinese - how to reverse engineer products, how to ape the west, make trinkets for the western dominated conglomerates. India does not need any of this trash. Gaining anything new from China is a remote possibility. Instead, India can keep an open mind about China and teach it a few new things.

India has always been a leader for centuries. India's approach to world civilization is well recognized. There is nothing inherently wrong with the approach that India is taking. We are in a temporary low time, caused mainly by the British subjugation of India. Very soon India will be out of this low phase.

[Nayak]

The chicoms are nothing but chaapamaars, whose inherent talent lies in copying the original from nut to nut, give it a lead coated paint and give a annoying chinese name and tom tom it in front of the world as a original product.

I hate India being compared with China, we should aspire for the American Dream/Values and Ideals (pre 911 i.e.) rather than getting into a di(k measuring contest with Panda.

Lets not forget that till Russia gave the Sus, these numbnuts were still flying s Mig 21 clones.

Do we trade with them ? - Yes
Do we talk about bhaichaara with them ? - Yes
Do we need to compare ourselves with them ? - Definitely not

Jeez, the way some of the articles talk about 'supel powel status' of these maroons makes me wanna puke.

My chinese colleague here was telling me that people in interior China live like savages, no water, no electricity, no education and the poverty levels are shocking to say the least.

I take every opportunity to di$$ China when I speak with my colleagues here.

[Stan_Savljevic]

I take every opportunity to di$$ China when I speak with my colleagues here.

Awesome, welcome to the club