Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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John Snow
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Postby John Snow » 23 May 2008 19:35

How come Aakash and Prithvi also point towards sky?

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Postby satyarthi » 23 May 2008 19:54

SRay wrote:http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/miss_muni/20080523_prithvi_II.html

However, some data released in the statement today does not tally with knowledge about the missile as it rests in the public domain. The statement says that the missile tested today has a range of 350 km and that it reached a peak altitude of 43.5 km. As far as is known the Prithvi-II (SS-250) has a range of 250 km. The missile has been developed for the Indian Air Force and is a single-stage, dual-engine, liquid fuel, road-mobile, short-range, surface-to-surface missile. It is the Prithvi-III (SS-350) which is credited with a range of 350 km.

The Prithvi-III is a solid fuel, two-stage, road-mobile, short-range, surface-to-surface missile. According to conventional knowledge, Sagarika and Prithvi-III are two different acronyms for the same missile.

PIII with 350km range is supposed to be solid fueled. But the picture posted shows a plume consistent with liquid fuel. Also the label is PII. So may be it is an improved 350km liquid fueled PII. Question is which component caused the improved range.

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Postby ramana » 23 May 2008 20:55

John Snow wrote:How come Aakash and Prithvi also point towards sky?


Do you want negative angle of attack?

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Postby Arun_S » 23 May 2008 21:08

sivab wrote:http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=39106

Army test fires Prithvi – II, achieves near perfect accuracy

Friday, May 23, 2008

The surface-to-surface Ballistic Missile Prithvi-II was successfully launched from ITR, Chandipur, Balasore off Orissa coast at 10:26 this morning. Prithvi – II has a range of 350 Kms with a flight duration of 483 seconds reaching a peak altitude of 43.5 kms. Prithvi-II is inducted into Army and today’s launch was carried out as part of Army training. Taken from routine production lot, the Missile was launched with an improved Aided Inertial Navigation and achieved single digit accuracy reaching close to zero Circular Error Probability (CEP). The missile has the features to deceive any Anti Ballistic Missiles.

BTW that is very true. With its winglets and largely in air trajectory, Prithvi has that Anti-ABM distinction.

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Postby Rahul Shukla » 23 May 2008 21:26

sivab wrote: ... range of 350 Kms with a flight duration of 483 seconds reaching a peak altitude of 43.5 kms...

Do we need another mohini natyam/rahasyam analysis here or is everything kosher this time and devoid of all maya that obfuscates reality leaving us forever ignorant?

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Postby ramana » 23 May 2008 21:44

No maya here. just a folk dance onlee.

Interesting is the bit about the INS being Aided to achieve single digit accuarcy.

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Postby Arun_S » 23 May 2008 22:47

Yes, the missile flew to its 43 Km apogee in 150 seconds and then stayed literally afloat (courtesy its lift body design and clipped wings) gliding down to target in the upper rarefied reaches of atmosphere for much of balance time to hit target at ~440 seconds.

This time fully using the gliding power per:
Image Click to enlarge.

I believe this version of missile has slightly better mass fraction.

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Postby MN Kumar » 23 May 2008 23:42

Arun any significance this test will carry to the next PAD ABM test?

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Postby SaiK » 24 May 2008 00:23

It would be interseting to watch a video of how P2 evades its brother PAD ABM! 8)

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Postby satyarthi » 24 May 2008 02:20

Arun_S wrote:Yes, the missile flew to its 43 Km apogee in 150 seconds and then stayed literally afloat (courtesy its lift body design and clipped wings) gliding down to target in the upper rarefied reaches of atmosphere for much of balance time to hit target at ~440 seconds.

This time fully using the gliding power per:

I believe this version of missile has slightly better mass fraction.

If the mass fraction is better then why is apogee smaller than old PII? Did it try to glide even during ascent?

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Postby putnanja » 24 May 2008 02:35

Nuclear-capable Prithvi-II test-fired successfully

[quote] Nuclear-capable Prithvi-II test-fired successfully

Y. Mallikarjun

HYDERABAD: Nuclear-capable, 350-km range surface-to-surface ballistic missile, Prithvi-II, was successfully test-fired in a “strategic mode in a completely user configurationâ€

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Postby satyarthi » 24 May 2008 02:45

RaviBg wrote:A DRDO press note said the missile was launched with an improved ‘Aided Inertial Navigation’ and achieved single-digit accuracy reaching close to zero CEP (Circular Error Probable).

I suppose when DRDO says a single digit accuracy in CEP was achieved, it means CEP in units of meters, i.e. <10 meters.

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Postby ramana » 24 May 2008 02:51

The strange thing is they say its a complete user trial from depot to firing yet talk about Aided INS and all that. And the range doesnt match the user trials for if its a P-II it should be 250 km and not 350 km. So two contradictory statements. I know they can say whatever they want but it doesnt do much good.

I would be more impressed if they start saying its no longer on deterrent role as the A series will take over.

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Postby rocky » 24 May 2008 02:54

Basically the extended dial-a-range feature has been tested, so it's nothing new. All they are saying is that in a routine test, the end-user managed the tuning features very well.

Mentioning single digit accuracy is almost like confirming the non-deterrent role anyways.

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Postby VikramS » 24 May 2008 05:29

How will a 500 Kg warhead coming in at ballastic speed work as an underground bunker buster (Chi-Com sub-base).

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Postby Rahul Shukla » 24 May 2008 06:33

^^^

If it is traveling too fast, it will be vaporised on impact. Alternatively, if the speed is too slow, it will not penetrate to a sufficient depth to cause damage. At just the right velocity, angle of impact and given the right shape of the penetrator (ogive), the concrete will liquify on impact and flow right over the warhead for optimal depth/detonation.

There was a report recently of some evil yindoo scientist saying RV/MIRV's are being tipped with a substance "... such as Chromium...". But Chromium wont do the job. Instead, if they are working with an alloy of 'Tungsten', we know what they are upto...
Last edited by Rahul Shukla on 24 May 2008 06:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Arun_S » 24 May 2008 06:37

satyarthi wrote:
Arun_S wrote:Yes, the missile flew to its 43 Km apogee in 150 seconds and then stayed literally afloat (courtesy its lift body design and clipped wings) gliding down to target in the upper rarefied reaches of atmosphere for much of balance time to hit target at ~440 seconds.

This time fully using the gliding power per:

I believe this version of missile has slightly better mass fraction.

If the mass fraction is better then why is apogee smaller than old PII? Did it try to glide even during ascent?

It was fired at sub optimal angle that stressed the airframe most.

Yes use lifting body when the missile is less inclined to horizon. even during ascent.

Now I just saw payload was 500Kg, so I do not think that requires any better ISP than the Std P-250.

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Postby pradeepe » 24 May 2008 08:41

As the gurus here have already noted, all of these refinements to further increase maneouverability (anti-ABM role) and also INS aided single digit CEP accuracy (precision targetting), should throw some light into the thinking of our strategists. In short improved ABM capability and precision targetting with less focus on mega bums.

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Postby Arun_S » 24 May 2008 12:12

pradeepe wrote: and precision targetting with less focus on mega bums.

Are you suggesting precision will reduce the yield requirement to 1kt or even 20 kt? Surely not.

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Postby p_saggu » 24 May 2008 13:02

Rahul Shukla wrote:^^^
But Chromium wont do the job. Instead, if they are working with an alloy of 'Tungsten', we know what they are upto...

Please enlighten, do you mean deep earth penetrating warheads?
please elaborate...

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Postby geeth » 24 May 2008 14:27

>>>There was a report recently of some evil yindoo scientist saying RV/MIRV's are being tipped with a substance "... such as Chromium...". But Chromium wont do the job. Instead, if they are working with an alloy of 'Tungsten', we know what they are upto...

The chromium coating is to improve the aerodynamic characteristics of the warhead. As per the report, chromium, which gets heated up due to aerodynamic friction reacts with atmospheric oxygen to produce chromium oxide, which is an exothermic reaction - the heat thus produced reduces the aerodynamic friction.

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Postby SaiK » 24 May 2008 16:15

I thought DUs for bunker busters!?

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Postby rakall » 24 May 2008 16:35

satyarthi wrote:
PIII with 350km range is supposed to be solid fueled. But the picture posted shows a plume consistent with liquid fuel. Also the label is PII. So may be it is an improved 350km liquid fueled PII. Question is which component caused the improved range.



A solid fuelled prithvi as a ballistic missile does not exist.

The closest the Prithvi can come to being solid fuelled is the modified Prithvi with a small second (solid) stage that is the kill vehicle of the PAD.
A solid fuelled version of Prithvi as a BM does not exist. All that was obfiscation fed to the DDM to cover-up the early PAD tests..

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Postby Shankar » 24 May 2008 17:00

h
e chromium coating is to improve the aerodynamic characteristics of the warhead. As per the report, chromium, which gets heated up due to aerodynamic friction reacts with atmospheric oxygen to produce chromium oxide, which is an exothermic reaction - the heat thus produced reduces the aerodynamic friction.


but why specifically chromium there are other cheaper low vaporising metals like zinc and copper and lead .only advantage chromium may have is its ability to take on a good polish and capable of being electro-chamically deposited on a non metallic surface like carbon composite but so can silver ,gold and aluminum

The explanation does not make much sense
except the coating being highly polished makes a good radar reflector .At reentry temperature many metals will react with atmospheric oxygen and create heat all the reactions are exothermic

By the way at re entry altitude the aprtial pressure of oxygen is very very low so not much reaction any way except when it is close to target

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Postby Shankar » 24 May 2008 17:17

A
composite material suitable for providing insulation for the nozzle structure of the Space Shuttle and other similar surfaces is disclosed which comprises an outer skin layer of nickel chromium and an interleaved inner region comprising a top layer of nickel chromium foil which acts as a primary convective shield, at least two layers of alumina batting adjacent to layers of silicon carbide fabric, and an additional layer of nickel chromium foil to be used as a secondary convective shield. The composite is particularly advantageous for use as nozzle insulation because of its ability to withstand high reentry temperatures, its flexibility, oxidation resistance, low conductivity, and light weight.


as you can see chromium is highly resistant to oxidization even at elevated temperature as expected in reentry vehicles .So the chromium use is something else not to reduce aerodynamic drag as claimed

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Postby Shankar » 24 May 2008 17:21

Despite the advantages of ceramics, the tiles still require heavy maintenance, which adds to the cost of each shuttle flight. Several tiles are shaken loose during each shuttle mission and must be replaced. The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) is already developing heat shield technology for the next generation of re-entry vehicles. One promising material is a nickel-chromium alloy known as Inconel 617, which was proposed to form the surface panels for the heat shield on the X-33 (an experimental space plane designed to test single-stage-to-orbit technologies; the project was canceled in 2001). Inconel panels for the X-33 were crafted to be highly resistant to corrosion, require only a single waterproofing (unlike shuttle tiles which must be waterproofed frequently), and be more easily removed than ceramic tiles because of a simpler mounting system.


chromium alloy panels may be used fro heat shield purpose in future and not for drag reduction

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Postby Venkarl » 24 May 2008 17:47

chromium coating is to improve the aerodynamic characteristics of the warhead. As per the report, chromium, which gets heated up due to aerodynamic friction reacts with atmospheric oxygen to produce chromium oxide, which is an exothermic reaction - the heat thus produced reduces the aerodynamic friction.


A silly question. In US's NMD, an incoming ballistic missile can be detected by early warning radars, space based infra red satellites and ground based X Band tracking radars in order to lock on the incoming warhead and launch an intercepting missile. My question is, because the "chromium" coated warhead generates heat around it, is it prone to be detected by any of these three "eyes"?? Will that heat increase the chances of getting detected any possible detector??

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Postby Venkarl » 24 May 2008 18:22

some good US NMD's animation.

http://pbs.gen.in/wgbh/pages/frontline/ ... asics.html

check the animation section on right side of the page

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/

scroll all the way down check some animations

sorry if off track.

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Postby SaiK » 24 May 2008 18:47

Will that heat increase the chances of getting detected any possible detector??

sure yes.. but most such infra reds have a range issue and time would not be enough for those abm launchers to even kick start the missile. hence bye bye.

comparing brahmos and p2 from role perspective at similar range or less, i am thinking p2 is mostly for city destructions since it can carry much heavier warhead. having a good precision helps in narrowing any chance of the enemy's 2nd strike.

if p2 is launched, i am expecting mostly paki centric, perhaps be launched from IA's buried launchers and/or mobile along the borders or from them hilltops and mountain ranges. our second strike should rain off all plausible points of attack to finish.

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Postby agupta » 24 May 2008 20:28

Arun_S wrote:Yes, the missile flew to its 43 Km apogee in 150 seconds and then stayed literally afloat (courtesy its lift body design and clipped wings) gliding down to target in the upper rarefied reaches of atmosphere for much of balance time to hit target at ~440 seconds.

This time fully using the gliding power per:
Image Click to enlarge.

I believe this version of missile has slightly better mass fraction.



Hi Arun

Curious remark that ... about the P3 design being a "lifting body" ? Would you mind elaborating on that - or pointing to any reference that I could use to understand better.

My recollection ( dated, hence my enquiry on updating this understanding) was that the missile has a circular cross-section and the fins are fixed geometry as well as non-articulated.

regards

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Postby kit » 24 May 2008 21:23

What about uv emissions from the rocket exhaust plume .. any way to mask that.Early warning satellites use detectors for this spectrum



SaiK wrote:
Will that heat increase the chances of getting detected any possible detector??

sure yes.. but most such infra reds have a range issue and time would not be enough for those abm launchers to even kick start the missile. hence bye bye.

comparing brahmos and p2 from role perspective at similar range or less, i am thinking p2 is mostly for city destructions since it can carry much heavier warhead. having a good precision helps in narrowing any chance of the enemy's 2nd strike.

if p2 is launched, i am expecting mostly paki centric, perhaps be launched from IA's buried launchers and/or mobile along the borders or from them hilltops and mountain ranges. our second strike should rain off all plausible points of attack to finish.

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Postby Rahul Shukla » 24 May 2008 22:53

Btw...

I think we're mixing up MIRV's deployed via ballistic missiles with EPW's (earth penetrating warheads) which, to the best of my knowledge, are deployed via aircraft such as the B-2. IIRC, I have never heard of an earth penetrating MIRV. So, whatever yindoo scientists are upto with something "...such as Chromium..." on the A-III RV/MIRV, it probobly has nothing to do with turning them into EPW/EP-MIRV. Also IIRC, that report said it has something to do with increasing the 'speed'. I am assuming they meant increasing the MIRV capability to withstand higher reentry velocities and corresponding higher heat/drag.

But me no physicist and I only read physics books because they put me to sleep sooner than Tom Clancy. However, there do exist conventionally deployed nuclear EPW's and my last night's bedtime physics reading reveals that:

A 1,000-kiloton (1-megaton) weapon surface burst has about the same effect on buried targets as a 63, 33, or 25 kiloton weapon detonated at a depth of 1, 5, and 10 meters, respectively.

While an EPW can destroy a buried target with less yield than a surface-burst weapon, increasing the yield increases the radius of damage.

...Precision-guided conventional bombs might defeat deeply buried structures by attacking power supplies, ventilation systems, and exits. The only way to destroy them ...is with a strong shockwave that travels through the ground.
Damage expectancy (DE) is the probability of achieving at least the specified level of target damage, and is the product of two probabilities--probability of arrival and probability of damage.

Probability of arrival (PA) is the probability associated with the weapon successfully arriving and detonating in the target area as planned. PA accounts for pre-launch survivability of the delivery platform, penetration of defenses, weapon system reliability, successful penetration, and other factors depending on the specific delivery platform.

Probability of damage (PD) is the probability of achieving at least the specified level of target damage, assuming arrival and detonation of the weapon in the target area, PD is calculated using a modified version of the mathematics in PDCALC-4 (the official targeting algorithm used by the Joint Strategic Target Planning Staff, JSTPS). The modifications allow for the explicit treatment of target depth, and incorporate the DUGIC-defined iso-stress contour geometry. In order to explicitly treat target depth, the distance damage prediction function (as shown in Figure 7) is defined in terms of the slant range instead of the commonly used ground range. The distance damage prediction function defines the target damage probability when the actual weapon impact location is known. PD is, then, the integral over all potential weapon impact locations of the distance damage prediction function.

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Postby Arun_S » 24 May 2008 23:27

agupta wrote:Hi Arun

Curious remark that ... about the P3 design being a "lifting body" ? Would you mind elaborating on that - or pointing to any reference that I could use to understand better.

My recollection ( dated, hence my enquiry on updating this understanding) was that the missile has a circular cross-section and the fins are fixed geometry as well as non-articulated.

regards

Prithvi's fins are articulated and provide traditional attitude and roll control function, thus play central role in missiles aerodynamic cruise/glide phase. At M3-5 the large dia missile body is very effective lifting body the mid section wings help generate stable center of lift during various speed regime.

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Postby Gerard » 25 May 2008 00:59

Commentary in the Washington Times
India's missile power lifts off

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Postby Gerard » 25 May 2008 01:01


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Postby Venkarl » 25 May 2008 07:12

kit wrote:What about uv emissions from the rocket exhaust plume .. any way to mask that.Early warning satellites use detectors for this spectrum


Don't know about UV emissions but the space based IR sats can detect the bright plume of an incoming ballistic long range missile in its boost phase, during the first few minutes of flight. these sats have a scanning array of sensors that views a particular location only every 10 seconds. these sats can watch a missile continuously, and will therefore be able to provide considerably better position, orientation, and speed information.

I heard that ground based X Band radars does not has the capability of tracking the missile continuously....but the improvised system will have this tracking feature too...

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Postby Venkarl » 25 May 2008 07:19

SaiK wrote:
Will that heat increase the chances of getting detected any possible detector??

sure yes.. but most such infra reds have a range issue and time would not be enough for those abm launchers to even kick start the missile. hence bye bye.


Dude....US has 4 such IR sats above equator and 1 each to monitor south and north poles...so do you think range is a problem?? I don't "think" :roll: so....correct me if I am wrong...

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Postby sivab » 25 May 2008 10:45

Copy of Deccan Chronicle Article on May 10 ...

http://syedakbarindia.blogspot.com/2008 ... gni-5.html

Agni-5: India plans 5000 km range Agni-5 missile

May 10, 2008
By Syed Akbar
Hyderabad, May 9: India has already attained the capability of developing missiles, which could hit targets beyond 5000 km range, according to Avinash Chander, programme director of Agni missile system.
Avinash Chander, who is also the director of Advanced Systems Laboratory that developed the Agni components, said his lab would now take up the design of the new missile system. "We have the capability of making 5000 km range missiles, but we have to make the designs first. The designing part will be over in two year's time," he said.
Interacting with a select group of reporters here on Friday after the successful test-fire of Agni-3 missile earlier this week, Avinash Chander said the next programme would be Agni-5. There's no need for Agni-4 as it's just an upgradation of the existing Agni-3. "We are looking forward to developing Agni-5 missiles with multiple warheads.
The present missile system carries only one warhead. The advanced stage of Agni-5 will be capable of carrying three warheads that could hit the given target or the set of different targets with precision,"
he pointed out.
The Agni-3 missile has filled the vital gaps in India's defence capability while Agni-5 will take it a step further. "We are on par with the European nations and China when it comes to possession of missile system capability. Only the USA is ahead of us," he claimed.
The development of Agni-5 will put India on an advantageous position in the region as it could hit any target within the geopolitical system. Only the USA, Russia, France and China have missiles beyond the 3,000 km range. India has
joined the select club with the successful test-firing of Agni-3, which has a range of about 3,500 km. "The Agni-5 technology will be totally indigenous," Avinash Chander said.
Referring to Agni-3, he said it has a state-of-the-art inertial guidance, highly accurate sensors with high immunity from jamming. The ASL is also working on new
warhead technologies that could be used for Agni-3 and Agni-5. The warheads will be capable of hitting the given targets piercing through the anti-ballistic missile defence system of the enemy. They are capable of fooling the radar system.
There will be decoy warheads which will be fired along with the genuine ones. The idea is to divert the attention of the enemy's defence system. The enemy will lose its anti-ballistic missiles firing at the decoy warheads while the real warheads will hit the targets, destroying the enemy's capability. The warheads will also pass through the atmosphere dodging the enemy's missiles.

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Postby Gerard » 25 May 2008 18:39

Energising the normalisation process —Talat Masood
There is also scope for developing additional CBMs in nuclear and conventional fields. Cruise missiles should be included in the Missile Notification regime. Security dialogue should include formal discussion of nuclear doctrines and India’s plans for building anti-ballistic missile defence systems as these have a direct impact on Pakistan’s security.

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Postby Nitesh » 25 May 2008 20:12

Gerard wrote:Energising the normalisation process —Talat Masood
There is also scope for developing additional CBMs in nuclear and conventional fields. Cruise missiles should be included in the Missile Notification regime. Security dialogue should include formal discussion of nuclear doctrines and India’s plans for building anti-ballistic missile defence systems as these have a direct impact on Pakistan’s security.


so pakis are getting worried about PAD and AAD. Gr8 going. India should not stop development of ABM system and should include cruise missiles in its envelop. :evil:


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