Indo-French Ties

[vina]

Tres bien M.Philip.. But from whatever i remember from my high school French,

Vive le France!

Shouldn't this actually be Vive La France ?

[SaiK]

philip, france might exchange all those mirages to rafales at pretty darn price and give those older ones at cheapo rates to pakis as well. agree?

[derkonig]

^
but but but...what about puki H&D?
buying 2nd hand maal from the SDRE....omg

[rachel]

I understand India just signed a 1.5 bln Euro deal with France to upgrade the 51 Mrages. Will they be upgraded to the full 2000-5 Mk2 standard?

[derkonig]

I understand India just signed a 1.5 bln Euro deal with France to upgrade the 51 Mrages. Will they be upgraded to the full 2000-5 Mk2 standard?

linky?

[rachel]

I understand India just signed a 1.5 bln Euro deal with France to upgrade the 51 Mrages. Will they be upgraded to the full 2000-5 Mk2 standard?

linky?

I thik I jumped the gun a bot, sorry: they say they 'will' sign that deal, but it hasnt been done yet. And Rediff says it'll be to 2000-9 standards:


http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/23mirage.htm

A multi-billion Euro deal to upgrade India's ageing 52 Mirage-2000 fighter aircraft would be the highlight of the visit of French president Nicholas Sarkozy in New Delhi from Friday.

Under the deal, worth 1.5 billion Euros cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security, the Indian Mirages would be upgraded to Mirage 2000-9 levels as flown by the French Air Force.

Through the upgradation, the Indian Air Force is planning to increase the life of its Mirage fighters by 25 years.

The upgradation will involve advanced radars, avionics and arming them with air-to-air missiles with longer reach beyond visual range.

The IAF is also in negotiations with Russia [Images] for similar upgradation of the Mig-29 fighter fleet. The Mirages, Mig-29 and Sukhois will form the frontline of the Indian Air Force till the new 126 multi-role combat fighter jets are inducted by 2014.

The upgradation of Mirages would be undertaken at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited with the support of French companies Thallus International and Dassault, the original manufacturers of the jets.

[rachel]

linky?

I think I jumped the gun a bit, sorry, i got excited: they say they 'will' sign that deal, but it hasnt been done yet. And Rediff says it'll be to 2000-9 standards:


http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/23mirage.htm

A multi-billion Euro deal to upgrade India's ageing 52 Mirage-2000 fighter aircraft would be the highlight of the visit of French president Nicholas Sarkozy in New Delhi from Friday.

Under the deal, worth 1.5 billion Euros cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security, the Indian Mirages would be upgraded to Mirage 2000-9 levels as flown by the French Air Force.

Through the upgradation, the Indian Air Force is planning to increase the life of its Mirage fighters by 25 years.

The upgradation will involve advanced radars, avionics and arming them with air-to-air missiles with longer reach beyond visual range.

The IAF is also in negotiations with Russia [Images] for similar upgradation of the Mig-29 fighter fleet. The Mirages, Mig-29 and Sukhois will form the frontline of the Indian Air Force till the new 126 multi-role combat fighter jets are inducted by 2014.

The upgradation of Mirages would be undertaken at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited with the support of French companies Thallus International and Dassault, the original manufacturers of the jets.

[bart]

Thallus International

How hard is it for the DDM to copy and paste?

[JCage]

IIRC thats how Thales is pronounced so our DDM just wrote the phonetic eqvt.

[Manny]

Unlike the USA and the UK, the French do not try to cloak their mercenary realpolitik with moral, human rights, and the right to spread their own evangelical brand of christianity (referred to as "freedom of religion")...this seems to irritate US policymakers to no end.


If we observe, France is trying to engage India in all the same fields that the Americans are, and yet the French have not given any moralizing lectures to India (like the Madeleine Halfbrights and her successors have done) about lack of religious freedom.

True that..Thats why they, the French are itching to open high tech European Military sales to PRC. Its the US thats holding the EU from opening that Pandora's box with that same lecture!

Manny

[Rye]

Manny wrote:

True that..Thats why they, the French are itching to open high tech European Military sales to PRC. Its the US thats holding the EU from opening that Pandora's box with that same lecture!

Yes, absolutely no one is an angel here.

The US has already been helping the PRC to upgrade its military capabilities (Recall the case where a US defence contractor was prosecuted for assisting china in fixing some blocking problem with their space/missile program.

The point is that all of the P-5 will sell it to whomever they think will help their interests -- so if the wankjobs want to do business, they should shut their trap about "religious freedom" and other deliberately created pressure points that have nothing to do with business....and everything to do with some nefarious agenda aimed at destroying India's internal cohesion (such as it is).

If EU or USA do not sell to PRC, it is because they are starting to recognize that further empowering china to become a more formidable challenger down the line is not in their best interests.

[Sumeet]

IIRC thats how Thales is pronounced so our DDM just wrote the phonetic eqvt.

Well did you read that Mulayam Singh, our ex def minister has started speaking English.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/i-have-star ... 518-3.html

Effects are almost immediately visible.

[Manny]

Yes, absolutely no one is an angel here.

The US has already been helping the PRC to upgrade its military capabilities (Recall the case where a US defence contractor was prosecuted for assisting china in fixing some blocking problem with their space/missile program.

The point is that all of the P-5 will sell it to whomever they think will help their interests -- so if the wankjobs want to do business, they should shut their trap about "religious freedom" and other deliberately created pressure points that have nothing to do with business....and everything to do with some nefarious agenda aimed at destroying India's internal cohesion (such as it is).

If EU or USA do not sell to PRC, it is because they are starting to recognize that further empowering china to become a more formidable challenger down the line is not in their best interests.

1. The wankjobs are not a single entity. Its a collection of people from different political ideology in Congress not unlike desi politcos ...who does the moral pontifications. But Indian parliamentarians are the champions of that. I doubt the US congress comes anywhere close the desis on that front.



2. About the EU withholding sales to PRC because of losing competitive advantage. I don't believe that to be the true..A while ago I posted a link to the fight between EU and the US in regards to sales of EU weapons to PRC. France was the leader of that fight itching to sell to PRC. And that fight is still going on. The US is standing in their way.

Here is an article I just found by googling.

http://pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_repo ... guage_id=1

France and Germany are pushing for an end to the embargo largely for economic reasons. The E.U. is China's third largest trade partner and, according to an October strategy paper, China expects the E.U. to become its largest source of foreign investment within five years. China's military spending has been growing by an annual rate of 17 percent even though the state has not recently been involved in any major conflicts.

[Rye]

Manny wrote:

1. The wankjobs are not a single entity. Its a collection of people from different political ideology in Congress not unlike desi politcos ...who does the moral pontifications.

Not really. This is coordinated by the US State Dept. and is part of official US policy, which started it "office for freedom of religion" a couple of years ago (as opposed to the more worthwhile goal of freedom from religion).

The US SD always works on acquiring capabilities to disrupt societies they are dealing with, and the mofos are pretending that this is being done to "further religious freedom"...change the definition of "Religious freedom" to "right to proselytize and destroy local cultures", and suddenly all the victims of these oiseaules become the aggressors in one shot. Note that the worthy who is pushing this idea is the "secular liberal" Madeleine Halfbright, not some hard-core republican religious conservative.

The report noted that "much of the world's population lives in countries where the right to religious freedom is restricted or prohibited" despite the fact that 144 countries belong to an international covenant that acknowledges the right of all citizens to religious freedom.

The US SD has India on the above list of lack of religious freedom -- need I say more?

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/09/05/s ... index.html

France and Germany are pushing for an end to the embargo largely for economic reasons. The E.U. is China's third largest trade partner and, according to an October strategy paper, China expects the E.U. to become its largest source of foreign investment within five years.

China would not be cash rich if it were not the US's largest trading partner for a decade or more, one with a very one-sided trade balance.

Also, Let us not forget these wonderful americans selling cutting-edge weapons to the paki jihadis in the name of the GOAT.

Clearly, every power worth its salt does its own calculations on how to disrupt the competition and get ahead, so that is not something that can be faulted. However, the US SD releasing reports proclaiming that India does not allow freedom to practise religions is a load of motivated (with very bad intentions towards India) horse manure.

[vsudhir]

Clearly, every power worth its salt does its own calculations on how to disrupt the competition and get ahead, so that is not something that can be faulted. However, the US SD releasing reports proclaiming that India does not allow freedom to practise religions is a load of motivated (with very bad intentions towards India) horse manure.

Nicely put.

The sheer scale and brazen-ness of the unkilian scheme staggers the mind. Took me a while to connect the freakin' dots and realize the implications. I only hope the babucracy is majority nationalist and realizes the (to quote Acharya San) conspiracy ahead.

[Baljeet]

I wonder SD put USA in that list. Mormon Christians believe Bingham Young was their prophet, polygamy is part of their religous beliefs. If Mormons have religious freedom in American how come they can't practise their belief, why is this specific Mormon practise illegal? Amerikhan SD look at their own backyard before they judge someone else.

[svinayak]

Clearly, every power worth its salt does its own calculations on how to disrupt the competition and get ahead, so that is not something that can be faulted. However, the US SD releasing reports proclaiming that India does not allow freedom to practise religions is a load of motivated (with very bad intentions towards India) horse manure.

Nicely put.

The sheer scale and brazen-ness of the unkilian scheme staggers the mind. Took me a while to connect the freakin' dots and realize the implications. I only hope the babucracy is majority nationalist and realizes the (to quote Acharya San) conspiracy ahead.

This is the way to gain moral power and they would even falsify to put themselves ahead. The War on terror and Iraq war has demolished the moral authority. They are using the power of media to create a false image

—George W. Bush, MSNBC, January 26th, 2008; "Our first goal as a country must be to restore that moral authority ... It won’t happen at all without the ...

[Raju]

French Radio is reporting that Sarkozy has married Carla Bruni.

[SaiK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35mj23ZeGjE&NR=1
Carla Bruni and Playboy - Uncensured !


coolest!

[Roop]

Shouldn't that actually be Vive La France?

Yes, you're right.

I personally find French people more humble and down to earth than americans and brits.

I agree that the French can be very warm and friendly when you visit their country, but it helps a lot if you speak and understand some French. I find that most people who complain that French are rude are people who don't speak or understand French, go to France and complain that the locals don't speak English. Personally, I would stay away from comparisons with Brits, Americans etc. as these comparisons are not helpful. You find good and bad people in every country.

For those who know the French better,they are far more hospitable to India and Indian sentiments than several other nations...

Agreed.

[svinayak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35mj23ZeGjE&NR=1
Carla Bruni and Playboy - Uncensured !
coolest!

Dont tease - Link

[Philip]

Oui,my Franglais est imperfect!

As Sarkozy gropes for grand concepts the might of Asia looms over the west
France's shrinking power drives the president to talk of a new civilisation, but risks exposing a habit of intellectual deception

Excerpts:

Last month Nicolas Sarkozy floated a raft of policies under a flag of "politique de civilisation". Borrowing the title from a 2002 book by the leftwing philosopher Edgar Morin, the French president argued that "we must fight the blunders and excesses of our own civilisation", which is apparently threatened by "global environmental destruction" and "the mistakes of finance capitalism".

Sarkozy's rhetoric about remaking our planet was most likely provoked by the dramatic changes the rise of China and India have forced on the political and economic architecture built by the US and Europe in the postwar era. It underpinned western prosperity and confidence until recently. Now, the mad neoliberal project of weaning more than 2 billion people on the consumption habits of middle-class westerners doesn't just threaten to destroy the environment; it is already exacting a politically lethal price as food and fuel prices, responding to increased demand, spiral out of control.

Last month, George Bush was left futilely pleading with his Saudi hosts to reduce the oil price while Citigroup, damaged by the sub-prime debacle, became another prestigious western bank to seek help from hitherto unlikely sources such as China, Singapore and Abu Dhabi. In less than a year, as the Wall Street Journal noted, "power and wealth have shifted from west to east, from major oil companies to petro-governments, and from US banks and hedge funds to the state-controlled investment funds of the Middle East and Asia".

This transformation has been in the making for a while. But excesses of greed and hubris - such as the invasion of Iraq, the sub-prime crisis and the environmental disaster precipitated by a recklessly globalised model of consumer capitalism - have accelerated the decline of western power. They have made harder, too, the task of the west's political elites: to tell their restless electorates that immigration ought to be restricted even when they know that the economy needs more of it; that globalisation is not all bad even though it has caused job losses; that climate change is an urgent problem even as they promise to enhance consumer purchasing power.

[Neshant]

a bit too dire considering a lot of the export industries and MNCs operating in India & China belong to western companies. Most of the output of these industries are exported to western economies. So the dependance is mostly one way for now.

most of the wealth transfer from west to east is happening due to high oil prices.

[shyamd]

2 French legislators have warned that technology transfers involved in the sale of six Scorpene submarines to India Designed by DCNS in conjunction with Navantia could rebound against France’s interests in the long-run.

[shyamd]

The French intelligence spy ship Dupy'd'Lomme has been sitting in the mumbai port for nearly a month due to the breakdown of one of its power plants. This is France's spy ship that monitors this side of the region including helping out in operations going on in Afghanistan. Apparently it may be repaired in Mumbai.

The ship was inducted 2 years ago and has electronics systems made by Thales.

The ship was located off the Indian and Puki coast, but by french law it can only conduct its operations in International waters. The mission was to intercept comms in the area and especially afghanistan.

I hope the intel & navy boys have paid it a visit, to check out the gadgets etc.

[sanjaykumar]

Perhaps it is collecting elint on Indian Navy assets. They should have that hulk towed to diego Garcia or whatever.

[Rye]

sanjaykumar wrote:

Perhaps it is collecting elint on Indian Navy assets.

This is definitely the more likely possibility...a "breakdown" of a sigint ship in a foreign port having low priority in the view of the French govt.? If we believe that, we must be owning a lot of cheap bridges.

[shyamd]

Did some googling, found the following:

The building is being implemented by the Navy, and loads about 80 specialists (civilian and military) of the Directorate of Military Intelligence (DRM) in intelligence Comint (Communication Intelligence) and Elint (electronic intelligence), for long missions duration.


2 radar navigation DRBN38A
1 radar detector ARBR-21
1 interceptor-goniometer satellite transmissions (a-c 2008)
1 interceptor-goniometer transmissions Elite
1 interceptor-goniometer transmissions Naval Egide

Weaponry
2 machine guns of 12.7mm M-2 HB Browing

A pic:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7231 ... _OM_02.jpg


The payload, based on an antenna complex, provides:
-Interception, direction finding and analysis of the latest radars in frequency ranges radar and firing between 300 MHz and 90 GHz;

- Modern communications and HF VUHF and communications relayed by satellite, radio or UHF, VHF, HF, MF and LF between 30 KHz and 100 GHz.

-Gathered in a listening centre, placed on board the vessel in a Faraday cage (part of which no radiation falls nor fate), specialists will relay information day and night to analyze intercepted communications.

The data are then sent daily at the training centre and employment on electromagnetic emissions from Creil.

They pass through the protected network of military satellites Syracuse.

[John Snow]

[Paul]

If IN Intel is not monitoring this vessel for transmissions and mounting other surveillence, I will buy a humidifier next I go to Kerala.

[sanjaykumar]

Elint is largely passive. No transmissions.

[shyamd]

I hear that the spy ship was actually in South Korea on a mission before ending up in Mumbai, not exactly clear, awaiting info.

[Rahul M]

Elint is largely passive. No transmissions.

FWIW, with proper equipments it used to be possible to identify which channels were being listened to by your opponent by tuning in to the normal leakage from eavesdropping machines.
Don't if it is still the case.

[Karan Dixit]

PARIS: France, which has supplied advanced Mirage-2000 fighters and Scorpene submarines to India, on Tuesday offered to become its full weapons development partner to produce front-line land combat systems for the Indian Army.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/New ... 138112.cms

[Karan Dixit]

The set of agreements that India was discussing with the IAEA, NSG, France, Russia and the US was the direct consequence of "this conviction of ours" that as India was a responsible nuclear power (even if it is not a member of Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty), there had to be a special regime for it to have sustainable development.

http://www2.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-2 ... 114648.htm

[Karan Dixit]

India and France may soon join hands to make the latest variants of surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) with a lethal hundred per cent kill probability, on the lines of the highly successful Indo-Russian Brahmos supersonic cruise missile.

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Jun ... updatenews

[Avinash R]

Indo-French space group review collaborative projects in Goa
Panaji | Monday, Jul 7 2008 IST
Link

The Joint Working Group of the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) and the French Space Agency Centre National d’Etudes Spatiales (CNES) reviewed the progress of the on-going collaborative programmes at a two-day meeting held here in Goa.

The meeting which concluded here yesterday, was held under the chairmanship of Dr G Madhavan Nair, Chairman, ISRO and Dr Yannick d’Escatha, President, CNES.

One of the prestigious projects reviewed was ''Megha Tropiques'', a satellite project scheduled for launch during 2009 for tropical weather monitoring.

The satellite carries four payloads - a Microwave Radiometer, a humidity sounder, a radiation measuring instrument and a Radio occultation sounder for atmospheric studies. During the meeting, an agreement between ISRO and CNES on the Data Policy for distribution of data received from ''Megha Tropiques'' was also signed. This enables the global scientific community to have free access to ''Megha Tropiques'' data after calibration and evaluation of the payloads by scientists from both the agencies for weather and climate change studies. The data is expected to enhance a better understanding of the tropical weather phenomena including the monsoons.

The meeting also reviewed the status of SARAL, a small satellite mission with payloads from CNES for the study of ocean parameters towards enhancing the understanding of the ocean state conditions which are otherwise not covered by the in-situ measurements. The satellite carries a Ka band altimeter and a payload for reception of ARGO floats deployed all over the world oceans. The altimeter data will provide support in coastal environment studies, estuarine, bathymetry and preparedness towards Tsunami disaster. The periodic data collection over the oceans permits climate assimilations for improved weather forecast. While reviewing the future collaborative projects, the teams emphasized the need for space-based observations for climate, environment and disaster management. The scientists also exchanged ideas for cooperation in conceiving space based systems and methodologies, which lead to a better understanding to tropical weather and climate. The cooperation between the two agencies is expected to enhance interaction between scientists outside space agencies in India and France and among the global scientific community.

It was re-emphasized that technical and scientific strengths of ISRO and CNES would lead to evolving and establishing innovative operational space systems in addressing issues related to the tropical weather and climate. Both the agencies concluded that these efforts should facilitate achieving leadership position in understanding the tropical climate. The meeting further re-established the relevance of the successful Indo-French cooperation in space activities.

ISRO-CNES JWG held in Goa
Bangalore | Monday, Jul 7 2008 IST
Link

...
An agreement between ISRO and CNES on Data policy for distribution of data received from Megha Tropiques was also signed during the meeting.

The policy would enable the global scientific community to have free access to Megha Tropiques data after calibration and evaluation of the payloads by scientists from both the agencies for weather and climate change studies. This data was expected to enhance a better understanding of the tropical weather phenomena, including monsoon.
...
While reviewing the future collaborative projects, the teams emphasised the need for space-based observations for climate, environment and disaster management.

The cooperation between the two agencies would also enhance interaction between scientists outside space agencies in India and France, and among the global scientific community.
...

[Karan Dixit]

France [Images] will support India during the forthcoming meeting of the board of governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency convened to consult and ratify India-specific safeguards agreement for the Indo-US nuclear deal.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/15ndeal14.htm

[Karan Dixit]

'This should be the year of peace,'' Mr Bonnafont said, adding: ''We cannot forget the significant contributions made by India to world peace by sending peacekeeping forces.'' After a short speach, he called for the playing of the national anthems of India and France and the anthem of the European Union.

http://www.newkerala.com/one.php?action ... s&id=85771

[ramana]

Op-Ed in Pioneer, 23 July 2008

Asks hard questions on the French intentions.

Nuclear dreams of Paris

Francois Gautier

France is pushing the India-US civilian nuclear cooperation agreement hoping it will be able to grab a slice of the multi-billion-dollar nuclear power pie for French firms. But France nurses a deep distrust of India as far as nuclear weapons are concerned

As expressed on television and in newspaper interviews and articles by France's Ambassador to India Jerome Bonnafont, France endorses the controversial India-US nuclear deal "which is said to be good for India". France is, of course, eagerly awaiting its signature so that it can try to sell to India its nuclear technology and maybe one or two nuclear plants. But what France also does not say is that it silently thinks India, unlike the five officially declared nuclear powers, is not a mature and wise enough nation to handle military nuclear technology; and it agrees with the US that India's military nuclear programme should be capped.

For if you read between the lines of the G8 chairman's statement at the end of the three-day summit ("We look forward to working with India, the International Atomic Energy Agency, the Nuclear Suppliers Group and other partners to advance India's non-proliferation commitments and progress") the safeguards agreement will definitely not permit spare parts or fuel -- even in the event of any shortage -- to be transferred between nuclear facilities under IAEA safeguards and those outside it as part of India's weapons programme.

We have also seen that finally, after a much-publicised show of bravado, French President Nicolas Sarkozy has agreed to attend the opening of the Olympic Games in Beijing. Under Chinese pressure, he will also probably not officially meet the Dalai Lama when His Holiness visits France in August. One has to understand the dilemma of the French President: France has invested massively in China and the heads of French businesses have been after him to rectify his attitude after the fiasco of the Olympic flame in France.

Fair enough. But then India should ask four questions to Mr Sarkozy. First, how is it that France is only the seventh largest investor in India, far behind the US, Germany, or even South Korea, when contrary to China, India is a pro-Western democracy, an island of freedom and liberalism in an Asia torn by Islamic fundamentalism (witness the recent bombing of the Indian Embassy in Kabul) and by China's hegemonic tendencies which are felt from Burma to Nepal, from Taiwan to Arunachal Pradesh?

Second, why did France recognise China's sovereignty over Tibet, a nation with an independent culture and religion, more than 10 years ago when it still refuses to accord the same right to India over Jammu & Kashmir, which has been historically and geographically part of India for at least 5,000 years and is the seat of Shaivaism?

Third, New Delhi does not question the fact that Paris feels that Corsica belongs to the territory of France, though it is an island. India does not contest Spanish sovereignty over Basque country, India did not say anything when Britain went to war over the Falklands when it geographically belongs to Argentina. Then why is it that the Western world -- and France -- continues to contest India's sovereignty over Jammu & Kashmir? Like its not trusting India to handle nuclear military technology, it does seem to spring from an unconscious sentiment of superiority.

But then France might very well answer that it understands India's concerns over Jammu & Kashmir, but that it does not want to 'upset' the Indo-Pakistani dialogue (which actually is only on paper, as Pakistan has betrayed every peace move made by India). But in truth, the French are actually falling for the Pakistani nuclear blackmail of an attack on India.

Thus, given the circumstances will it be wrong for India to again ask France as to why the latter continues to sell arms to Pakistan? It might also very well be that France does not want to antagonise part of its volatile Muslim minority, although this seems to be a bit of a fallacious argument.

Yet, Mr Sarkozy is a man of vision and is not afraid to break conventions as he has quite amply shown in his private and public life. If he would make the gesture of recognising India's sovereignty over Jammu & Kashmir, as France did to China over Tibet, it would earn France immense gratitude in India. It would pave the way for greater economic cooperation between the two countries and it would give France a bargaining chip with China which is always blackmailing it by saying it will cancel its Airbus order whenever it is displeased. The moment France diversifies its investments in Asia to include India, China would certainly feel the pinch. Lastly, it would pave the way for a new kind of political and military cooperation between Europe and India and recognise -- at last -- the immense geopolitical importance of India in Asia.

France, its diplomats in India and its Indologists, should do well to come out of their ivory towers if they want to stay in tune with 21st century Asia. They should first accept the diversity of opinion on India and not only see India through the eternal clichés of the 'India specialists' in France who for decades have associated India, in the minds of French people, with poverty, caste, Hindu 'fundamentalists' and 'oppressed' minorities. The French Embassy in Delhi should seek the opinion of those who have lived in India for long and know India well.

And once more the question has to be asked to France: Why don't you recognise Jammu & Kashmir as you recognise Tibet? Then India need not sign a nuclear treaty with the US, which will bind it politically and economically to the Americans. France would be an excellent nuclear, economic and political partner for India and it would help preserve a bipolar world, where Corsica, Tibet and Jammu & Kashmir remain in the fold of their mother nations.

Dang I wanted some BR member to write like this for SRR.