But, but, in case of Pakistan, they already know that all their Generals are feeble-minded. It is a job requirement for them. So, why cashier them for being what they are supposed to be?sanjaykumar wrote: If an Indian general made a homologous statement, he would be cashiered on the suspicion of feeble-mindedness.
For a Paki "izzat" vis a vis india is the most important thing. They have to keep saying "We are better than India"sanjaykumar wrote:Gen. Kiani also took the opportunity to reassure his audience that “as a soldier, as a general, I am far, far superior to an Indian army general.”
Is it the Islamic millieu that permits such bombast?
If an Indian general made a homologous statement, he would be cashiered on the suspicion of feeble-mindedness.
This Usman Khalid is probably the same usman Khalid who has been posting on Pakdef or one of those sites for years.anupmisra wrote:Here's another view of the same Kiani interview
On a website euphemistically titled "Makepakistanbetter.com"
Lt. Gen. Jamshed Gulzar Kiani on Kargil
Usman Khalid, Director London Institute of South Asia
London Institute of South Asia or LISAshiv wrote:anupmisra wrote:Here's another view of the same Kiani interview
On a website euphemistically titled "Makepakistanbetter.com"
Just like a muddled he calls it 'London Institute of South Asia". I would have thought that a 'London Institute of South Asia" is an Institute situated somewhere in South Asia (Pakistan) where they study London.
A Lesson from History – A Wake Up Call to Muslims by Irshad Haqqani 21/06/2008(Pakistan’s enduring interests that are as old as Pakistan itself, are: Kashmir, Kalabagh Dam and Khalistan). Letter K in Pakistan is for Kashmir; Pakistan is incomplete without it. Azad Kashmir was liberated by a fight approved by Quaid e Azam Muhammed Ali Jinnah. Pakistan has always had the military capability to take Kashmir; it just did not have the leaders with grit and determination to lead the fight. It was Quaid e Azam who promised Khalistan to the Sikhs. River Sindh needs more dams to assure adequate supply of water to the irrigation system of Pakistan. Kalabagh Dam has been recognised as the best site since before the Partition. It has now been shelved because the politics of inter-provincial hate still the easy route to sucess in elections and it now has the blessing of the the American s as well.
Beware of Indians Bearing Gifts by Usman Khalid 08/05/2008The Indian Foreign Minister is visiting Pakistan shortly bearing a gift. The gift is ‘freer’ travel for Kashmiris across the line of control. The last time the leaders of two countries met, the agreement that resulted was heralded as ‘break though’. Brownen Maddox of The Times wrote in her column: the behemoths of the Sub-Continent, both of who are nuclear powers, met and the result was a measly mini-bus across the Line of Control, which it turned out, had no passengers. This time, it would perhaps be a mini-van but still empty. India wants it to travel all the way to Muzaffarabad this time, not just to the border as is the case now at Wagah border where the goods are off-loaded from Indian trucks and loaded on to that from Pakistan and vice versa. A vehicle with Pakistani number plates in India or one with Indian number plates in Pakistan would be too inflammatory.
This post has been reported by a user using the following words:anupmisra wrote:London Institute of South Asia or LISAshiv wrote:
Their website has Bhindrawale and Ambedkar along with Djinn-aah! on its masthead. Seems to be India-focused. Their motto is "Working for Peace Through National Self-Determination". Hence, the obvious reference to Ambedkar and Bhindrawale.
This does not qualify for an admin warning - so I am making an open reply here.Why provide links to paki propaganda websites? This is an extension of linking to a refined version of pak def
Operation ASM. (Another Stupid Move)ramana wrote:We know Indian response to the Kargil perfidy was Operation Vijay. How mwny know what was the name for TSP's foray?
Nine years have gone by since Indian bravehearts silenced enemy guns in the Kargil conflict, but for retired Senior Secondary School Principal Girdhari Lal Batra pride still battles sorrow when he reminisces his son Captain Vikram Batra, who was awarded the Param Vir Chakra posthumously after Operation Vijay.
During an interaction in the run-up to Kargil Vijay Diwas, observed on July 26 every year, Palampur-resident Dr Batra quoted from the Bhagavadgita, "Hato Va Prapsyasi Svargam Jitva Va Bhoksyase Mahim Tasmad Uttistha Kaunteya Yuddhaya Krtaniscayah. (Either slain thou shalt go to heaven; or victorious thou shalt enjoy the Earth; therefore arise, o son of Kunti, resolved in battle)."
Capt Batra (IC 57556), an officer of the 13 JAK RIF (13th Battalion of The Jammu and Kashmir Rifles Regiment), was personally congratulated by the then Chief of Army Staff General Ved Prakash Malik over telephone for recapturing Point 5140 — the highest peak on Tololing Ridge-on June 20, 1999 without losing a single jawan.
On July 7, in another operation in the area of Pt 4875, Capt Batra’s Delta Company was tasked to clear a narrow feature with sharp cuttings on both sides and heavily-fortified enemy defences that covered the only approach to it. It was on that day that the Captain died for his country.
"He might have been alive today had a certain Indian TV news channel not made some tactical details public. The Pakistanis were waiting for him," a retired Brigadier alleged .
Expresssing disagreement, Major-General (retd) M P S Kandal-who served as the Indian Army’s Additional Director-General (Operational Logistics) but retired pre-Kargil-said, "in hindsight one can say anything. It is very hard for media or others to draw lines of rationality in that kind of stressful situation. The press brought awareness in every home during the Kargil conflict."
Capt Batra’s citation records, "For speedy operation, Captain Batra assaulted the enemy positions along a narrow ridge and engaged the enemy in a fierce hand-to-hand fight and killed five enemy soldiers at point blank range. Despite sustaining serious wounds, he crawled towards the enemy and hurled grenades clearing the position with utter disregard to his personal safety, leading from the front, he rallied his men and pressed on the attack and achieved a near impossible military task in the face of heavy enemy fire.
The officer, however, succumbed. Inspired by his daredevil act, his troops fell upon the enemy with vengeance, annihilated them and captured Point 4875 (later renamed Captain Batra Top)."
"Captain Vikram Batra, thus, displayed the most conspicuous personal bravery and leadership of the highest order in the face of the enemy and made the supreme sacrifice in the highest traditions of the Indian Army," the citation reads.
It adds "the mission was almost over, when the Captain lunged forward to rescue another officer Lieutenant Naveen, whose legs were severely injured in an explosion. When he was dragging the Lieutenant towards cover, a bullet pierced Capt Batra’s chest. He saved his junior by sacrificing his life and died with the words "Jai Mata Di!" (Victory to Mother Durga) on his lips.
"He was nicknamed ‘Sher Shah’ by his Commanding Officer (CO) Lt-Colonel Y K Joshi-the Battalion Commander. Vikram was very patriotic from the very beginning and very spiritual also. The latter quality was inherited," said the officer’s father.
During a detailed briefing by Lt-Col Joshi, prior to the attack on Point 5140, Capt Batra told his CO that the success signal of his Company would be ‘Yeh dil mange more’ (my heart wants more)!
"He captured the peak and killed enemy soldiers, but wanted more. The phrase can be interpreted at a spiritual level as well. I had once decided to give a small Bhagavadgita booklet to him, but ultimately could not do so. I later realised that he had inherited the ‘samskara’ and personified the teachings of Lord Krishna," said Dr Batra.
"I feel honoured that I gave birth to a son like him, who did not flinch from his duty when the hour arrived," said the officer’s mother Kamal Kanta Batra who is a retired teacher.
On June 16, Capt Batra wrote to his twin brother Vishal from Drass Sector.
"Dear Kushu, take care of mom and dad... Anything can happen here..."
In 1994, Vikram took part in the Republic Day parade as a NCC cadet and when he came back, he told his parents that he would love to join the Army.
"His maternal Grand Father was in the Army, so were several other relatives. He was commissioned on December 6, 1997, after training at the Indian Military Academy, Dehradun," said Dr Batra.
Vikram was born on September 9, 1974 at Palampur. Brother Vishal is an Assistant General Manager at ICICI Bank and posted at Delhi. The Batras have two married daughters who are elder to Vishal. One lives at Mandi in Himachal Pradesh and the other in Delhi.
"We meet other martyrs’ families as we have suffered the same kind of shock. Good and bad go on in the world. If we have to achieve spiritual heights we have to make great sacrifices. Goodness always prevails," felt Mr Batra.
It was in Chandigarh that Vikram found the girl whom he would have married. He met her at the university and had planned to tie the knot after his return from the war. During the cremation, she stood to one side with her parents and wept quietly.
The Tricolour-in which Capt Batra’s body was wrapped-was handed over, along with his cap, to his mother. She has wrapped it reverently in transparent plastic and kept it on a table in front of her son’s photograph.(UNI)
Debatable that the media could not draw lines because of stressful conditions.Expresssing disagreement, Major-General (retd) M P S Kandal-who served as the Indian Army’s Additional Director-General (Operational Logistics) but retired pre-Kargil-said, "in hindsight one can say anything. It is very hard for media or others to draw lines of rationality in that kind of stressful situation. The press brought awareness in every home during the Kargil conflict."
I thought only the arty fire after the Rocket barrage was the fault of NDTV!I would blame the Army liaison more than the Press... for one thing, most of them were green to defence reporting. it was a learning experience for all of them. Second, they are inexperienced in military tactics, and obviously didnt know what would be critical info.ramana wrote:No one is denying that the press did bring home the conflict but it should not hide that fact that giving out operation details even inadvertently should not be allowed. Especially when the reported becomes lionized for spilling the facts leading to the death of soldiers under wartime.
kancha wrote:
this letter was written by Capt M K Pandey,PVC one of his friends in Luncknow, from the battlefield. It gives out the traits of the martyr who (as i see it) comes across as a rather down to earth young man on the road to self discovery. mind you ... he had joined the battle after a stint in the valley and one in the glacier, where he had volunteered to man one of the most difficult posts - Pahalwan.
kancha wrote:Pardon my saying so, but it seems that this thread has virtually become an obituaries thread. Just to refresh it a bit, here's the story of a Braveheart who actually lived to tell his story.
He not only escaped from the clutches of Pakfauj that captured him in Khalubar, but also despatched many pakis in the process, and all this with a bullet wound in his neck
This is a scanned article from Mid Day newspaper published in Dec 1999. In case of any copyright issues, I will delete this post.
Should we be ashamed of Kargil victory?
July 29, 2008
At a little past 11.30 pm last Saturday, an SMS came from a friend in Bangalore: "Kargil Forgotten." To a South Indian with not a single member of the family in the fauj, and therefore without that emotional connect with matters military, the message made little sense.
Truth to tell, with one beer too many at a restaurant called It's Greek To Me, the message seemed all too Latin.
A Google search the next morning cleared the haze in 0.13 seconds. The day gone by, July 26, was the ninth anniversary of the Kargil triumph -- the day ceasefire was declared in the war against Pakistan in 1999; a day since then observed as 'Kargil Vijay Divas'.
What my IT friend was saying was that in between Blasts A and Blasts B -- while we were selfishly, shamelessly, secretly wondering when and where a bicycle might knock us dead -- an ungrateful nation had forgotten to salute a famous victory against Pakistan.
A victory in achieving which 562 soldiers had bravely, selflessly, unquestioningly laid down their lives for their country and countrymen, i.e. us, in the cold heights of Kargil.
Even for a "leftover liberal" with scarcely any militaristic sentiments, it seemed too obvious an event for the political class to miss, especially given the rap they had received for their disgraceful sendoff to Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw in June.
But the Sunday papers provided little proof that old habits die hard.
For starters, there was not a sentence about 'Vijay Divas' in 78 pages of the world's largest selling English daily. Not a word in its competitor with historic links with the Congress. Not a word in the house journal of the BJP. Not a word in the emerging (unofficial) mouthpiece of the CPI-M.
What little notice the Delhi [Images] media took, it took through the lens of its photographers.
The Asian Age had a single-column picture of BJP president Rajnath Singh offering a floral tribute to the martyrs at the party headquarters. The Indian Express carried a five-column picture of a solder in front of the flame at India Gate in its Delhi Newsline supplement. And The Hindu had a 3-column picture of the army chief, the navy chief, and the vice chief of the air staff paying homage.
Only The Sunday Tribune had anything by way of text accompanying a six-column picture of a Network18 cameraman filming naval officers lined up to pay tribute to the martyrs at India Gate, along with an accompanying story from Dehradun.
From a media point of view, the poor coverage was understandable, indeed even justifiable.
There was nothing newsy, nothing sexy about the anniversary, which had been overshadowed anyway by a dastardly attack that killed so many in two big cities. Television and newspapers cannot keep filling their time and space with something so maudlin, can they?
Yes.
But if, after 11 years, they can still squeeze their lachrymal glands enough on June 13 every year for the 59 who perished in the 'Uphaar Fire Tragedy' in 1997, how difficult is to remember the 562 who died for cause and country in 1999?
But our crib is not with the media, it's with our netas.
Where were our "leaders", the people who, by the nomenclature thrust on them, are destined to lead us, to show us the way, on Saturday, July 26?
Where was the President and the commander-in-chief of the armed forces, Pratibha Patil [Images]? Where was the prime minister, Manmohan Singh [Images]? Where was the defence minister, A K Antony? Where was the chief minister of Delhi, Sheila Dixit?
Yes, there was a celebration in the BJP office with Rajnath Singh in attendance, but was there any commensurate celebration in the Congress office? Was Congress president Sonia Gandhi [Images] present? Was there any celebration in the CPI or CPI-M headquarters? Were Prakash Karat [Images] and A B Bardhan there?
And so on.
If the leaders and their parties did observe Vijay Divas, their media minders have done a splendid job of hiding it from public view. If they didn't, the nation is entitled to ask why: Has the Kargil victory become something to be ashamed of for most of our political parties?
The Ahmedabad [Images] blasts cannot be offered as an excuse because they happened long after sunset on Saturday. The Bangalore blasts cannot be offered as an excuse because it killed but one (or two). Even so, since when did "national pride" fall victim to "national mourning"?
Or, has the Kargil victory, like so much else, fallen prey to petty, partisan politics?
Those who cover the defence beat say the Kargil victory is now viewed as "an NDA/BJP victory" with which the UPA/Congress wants to have no part. "The Congress has its 1971, the BJP has its 1999," says one award-winning reporter.
(That the Congress which does not want to remember 1999 could not even remember the hero of the 1971 victory properly tells its own story.)
But if true, how pathetic as a people can we be getting, that we view the triumph of the nation, the sacrifice of our soldiers, not through a wide, collective prism, but through a narrow, constricted aperture of the government of the day?
Certainly, critics, sceptics and cynics in the military, media and polity have plenty of questions over how the Kargil victory was achieved: The intelligence and strategic failures, the antiquated techniques in capturing Tiger Hill (the site of most of the casualties), etc.
Plus, there is the coffin scam over which the Congress walked out of the House each time then defence minister George Fernandes [Images] got up to speak.
Much as those questions may be important and need to be answered, how do they take the gloss away from a great victory? And how do they make a meaningful observance meaningless?
What kind of signal is such peevishness sending to the jawan in the field, and to potential recruits? What kind of impact does it have on their morale and motivation to be reminded that they are not fighting for the nation at large but for the coalition in power?
Is this something over which our parties should try to score silly points?
Is this how we show how much we value the armed forces?
This is not to suggest that the President and prime minister and defence minister and Congress president must drop everything and break out into a bhangra every July 26 for the benefit of the television cameras. But what do they lose by gracefully acknowledging Kargil's place in our contemporary history?
Especially at a time when insurgency, homegrown terrorism and cross-border terrorism are on the up?
At the first anniversary of the victory, the then President K R Narayanan, vice-president Krishan Kant, prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, defence minister Fernandes, and the three chiefs of staff were all present.
At the second anniversary, in 2001, the vice-president, prime minister, defence minister, minister of state, service chiefs and defence secretary were slated to pay homage at Amar Jawan Jyoti.
The current wave of gracelessness and tactlessness is obvious.
What is not so obvious is the window something like this offers on our hopelessly polarised politics -- and the manner in which the liberal-left is ceding ground to the right by turning patriotism and the national interest into the sole proprietorship of the BJP.
If television channels can realise the benefits that can accrue to their TRPs by carting cinema and cricket stars for the benefit of the jawans, how difficult is for our parties and politicians to realise the jump their TRPs might see if they are seen and heard making a rousing speech or gesture?
Parties and politicians are divided the world over, and our country is no different. But does only the party which was in power in 1945 Britain celebrate V-E Day? Does the Labour Party boycott it because Winston Churchill was in charge?
Hopefully, this August 15, the BJP won't return the favour and boycott Independence Day, just because that victory was achieved by the Indian National Congress.
...
Thereafter, Lt Gen Mehmud took over and broke the news that a limited operation had started two days earlier. It was nothing more than a ‘protective manoeuvre’, he explained, and was meant to foreclose any further mischief by the enemy, who had been a nuisance in the Neelum Valley, specially on the road on our side of the Line of Control (LOC). He then elaborated that a few vacant Indian posts had been occupied on peaks across the LOC, overlooking the Dras-Kargil Road. These would, in effect, serve the purpose of Airborne Observation Posts (AOP) meant for directing artillery fire with accuracy. Artillery firepower would be provided by a couple of field guns that had been heli-lifted to the heights, piecemeal, and re-assembled over the previous few months when the Indians had been off-guard during the winter extremes. The target was a vulnerable section of Dras-Kargil Road, whose blocking would virtually cut off the crucial life-line which carried the bulk of supplies needed for daily consumption as well as annual winter-stocking in Leh-Siachen Sector. He was very hopeful that this stratagem could choke off the Indians in the vital sector for up to a month, after which the monsoons would prevent vehicular movement (due to landslides) and, also suspend all airlift by the IAF. “Come October, we shall walk in to Siachen – to mop up the dead bodies of hundreds of Indians left hungry, out in the cold,” he succinctly summed up what appeared to be a new dimension to the Siachen dispute. It also seemed to serve, at least for the time being, the secondary aim of alleviating Indian military pressure on Pakistani lines of communications in the Neelum Valley that the Corps Commander had alluded to in his opening remarks. (The oft-heard strategic aim of ‘providing a fillip to the insurgency in Kashmir’ was never mentioned.)
...
How is the situation of the PAF any better now (the J-10s are still yet to enter service and mostly, unproven at high altitudes)?It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.
Do we also have such detailed info on PAF ORBAT and daily activities? Seems scary to see a Paki writing about our force in such detail which even most IAF men wont know!!!!I would presume PAF intelligence and surviellance. As DMO he would have access to all reports
Always had believed that only a single lock on had occured when a MiG-29 locked to a F-16. Amazing that so many "close encounters" occurred. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place.
.While the photo-recce missions typically did not involve deliberate border violations, there were a total of 37 ‘technical violations’ (which emanate as a consequence of kinks and bends in the geographical boundaries). Typically, these averaged to a depth of five nautical miles, except on one occasion when the IAF fighters apparently cocked-a-snoot at the PAF and came in 13 miles deep.
wonder why did he mention Mirage-III as ground attack fighter.sum wrote:Unbelievable article.
How is the situation of the PAF any better now (the J-10s are still yet to enter service and mostly, unproven at high altitudes)?It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.
So does he confirm that Nawaz Sharif was aware of the entire operation - but was basically not competent to evaluate the scope and enormisity of the invasion untill it blew up....The trio, in previous ranks and appointments, had been associated with planning during paper exercises on how to wrest control of lost territory in Siachen. The plans were not acceptable to the then Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, to whom the options had been put up for review more than once. She was well-versed in international affairs and, all too intelligent to be taken in by the chicanery. It fell to the wisdom of her successor, Mr Nawaz Sharif, to approve the Army trio’s self-serving presentation....
I think the timing of the article could be linked with Musharraf being out of power, else the author could have faced retribution! That said it is courageus of him to write what he has .... hope this is noticed by the paki media and posted in mainstream newspapers. It could draw out a responses from other officers.ramana wrote:Also note his sneering remarks about Pak Army. Could be post-Kargil rehablitation exercise.
Check now, theres a new para added before that line.Aditya G wrote:
4. "After hearing Gp Capt Tariq’s report" .... seems Tufail has missed out a paragraph or two before this line.
